Re: QNX Neutrino (new targets, GPL) (fwd)

Re: QNX Neutrino (new targets, GPL) (fwd)

[Alain Magloire]

Bonjour

  This was forwarded to me.  I'm not on this list.

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> Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 06:58:30 +0200 (MET_DST)
> From: Anders Norlander <anorland@acc.umu.se>
> To: Ian Lance Taylor <ian@zembu.com>
> cc: binutils@sourceware.cygnus.com
> Subject: Re: QNX Neutrino (new targets, GPL)
> In-Reply-To: < 20000705201217.7643.qmail@daffy.airs.com >
> Message-ID: < Pine.A41.4.21.0007060625450.27058-100000@lenin.acc.umu.se >
> 
> On 5 Jul 2000, Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
> 
> >    Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:14:34 +0200 (MET_DST)
> >    From: Anders Norlander <anorland@acc.umu.se>
> > 
> >    I contacted QNX about their tools since it would be dumb to duplicate the
> >    effort of porting the tools (and they probably have some knowledge that I
> >    don't). But QNX refuses to publish the source code for the modified tools.

Who did you contact ? The src is made available on a per request basis.
Things are changing and what you got yesterday maybe obsolete tomorrow
so there is no point to make this widely available now.

> >    They claim it will eventually be available by CVS and that in the meantime
> >    the sources have been put in the hands of the FSF.

Yes that is the intention, that will permit outsiders to track developement
more easily.

>      I don't know if that is
> >    true, but I do know that they are intentionally violating the GPL. They

I beg your pardon ?

> >    are aware of the implications of the GPL and they have been distributing
> >    binutils and GCC binaries for a long time, without any source code.

"Distributing GCC for a long time"  QNX as been using Watcomm C, and the
shift was done to GNU gcc for QNX/Neutrino and it is not even release yet.
Maybe you are talking about JC Michot port of gcc for QNX and Neutrino
1.0 beta/alpha, then you take this up with him.

> > 
> > When I look at the QNX web site, I see this:
> > 
> >     QNX Software Systems is committed to providing the source code for
> >     all GNU utilities (and other software subject to the GPL) which it
> >     distributes. Such utilities include awk, rcs, gmake, gzip, and
> >     sed. If you can't find the GNU source code you are looking for
> >     under the free software area, please contact freesoft@qnx.com and
> >     we will make a copy available.
> > 
> > This is on
> >     http://www.qnx.com/cgi-bin/dir_find.cgi?/usr/free/
> 
> Well, you will find some software here, but not gcc or binutils. This is
> seems to be mostly software ported by people outside of QNX. 
> 
> > If you have downloaded a binary compiled from GNU code from QNX, and
> > they will not provide the source code, then they are violating the
> > GPL.  You implied that you did that, but you didn't explicitly state
> > it.  Can you confirm that you have done that?  Which binary was it,
> > and how did you download it?
> 
> The binary is what is distributed with the QNX 4 and QNX/Neutrino 2.0
> platform. Installing QNX 4 with development tools for QNX/Neutrino will
> install gcc for QNX/Neutrino MIPS, x86 and PowerPC targets (depending on
> what you choose). The versions are gcc 2.8.1 and binutils 2.9.1. I hear
> the upcoming release of QNX/Neutrino is self-hosting but I don't know the
> version of any tools used, but it is GNU tools from what I know.

You did not anwser the questions, Neutrino is not a release product,
Contact again the point where you get this "distribution" and ask
them for the src of the tools you need, because the src is not on an ftp
site does not mean it's not available.  Maybe it's just a misunderstanding,
sometime salesmen do not get it straigth.

> 
> Regards,
> Anders
> 
> ----- End of forwarded message from Anders Norlander -----
> 


-- 
au revoir, alain
----
Aussi haut que l'on soit assis, on n'est toujours assis que sur son cul !!!

Re: QNX Neutrino (new targets, GPL) (fwd)

[Alain Magloire]

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Bonjour

> > Who did you contact ? The src is made available on a per request basis.
> > Things are changing and what you got yesterday maybe obsolete tomorrow
> > so there is no point to make this widely available now.
> 
> I contacted QNX support about the sources, but I could not get them.

It was not a trick question, obviously somebody was ill-informed in
tech-support or sales or ...  just wanted to track it down.

> [snip] 
> > "Distributing GCC for a long time"  QNX as been using Watcomm C, and the
> > shift was done to GNU gcc for QNX/Neutrino and it is not even release yet.
> > Maybe you are talking about JC Michot port of gcc for QNX and Neutrino
> > 1.0 beta/alpha, then you take this up with him.
> 
> QNX/Neutrino 2.0 was released a year ago and this includes the QNX 4
> hosted tools.

Ha ! yes, but things has drasticly change since then.

> The 1.0 alpha version you are talking about is from late
> 1996, although I don't know if this featured GNU development tools. The

No, Neutrino 1.0 used only Watcom.  Some other people may have
ported the GNU tool chains, but it was not done/distributed via QNX.

> Watcom compiler is only for QNX 4, not neutrino. Yes, JC Michot is the guy
> that originally ported the tools,

JC(not a QNX employee) did a port and it is widely use, outside and
even inside of QNX, this port used some hackery to get elf --> omf, by
using the watcom assembler(for QNX4).

> and QNX used this port to begin with (as I understand it).

We make no secret that we use sometimes JC tools internally, JC
made some outstanding contributions to QNX at large, and
he's a really nice person 8-).

> The version distributed by QNX for neutrino 2.0 is the JC Michot port.

No, QNX does not distribute Mr Michot tools, 

> I don´t know what people in QNX have worked on this recently.
> 

We've work on many things and some will never see the light of day
period, because of Watcom license restrictions etc ...

> Anyway, no sources are available from QNX or Mr. Michot. 
> 

Again we spelled out our plan to make a CVS repository, for the release
of Neutrino, if you are impatient you can get it by request.
As for Mr Michot(JC) you should take this up with him, QNX is not
responsible for this.

[snip]

> I do not understand what you mean by neutrino not being a released
> product, it certainly is: I have the installation/release media right
> here.

I was talking about the current version, it's not released yet,
Which is a total departure from what we have before.  Bringing
and OS to maturity, takes time, lots of time... and even
with nusering ... murphy's law.

> When I asked about the sources the answer was that no sources were
> available, they had been handed to the FSF.

I've forwarded your email to the tools-group, maybe they can trace
things back.  To my knowledge, when asked src were giving.  And I
even gave away my own (cross-compile Solaris)port,
yes it seems that everybody has there own little port 8-).

> I have not seen any source
> code from QNX being contributed to binutils or gcc. There is some support
> in config.{sub,guess} for QNX 4, but that is all (no actual code). QNX
> still has the responsibility to provide sources for GPL'd software they
> distribute, no matter what media is used.

I think QNX has clearly spelled out its plan, if you do not like ... tough.

> My port of the tools is available at http://www.acc.umu.se/~anorland/nto/
> for those interested. I'm willing to provide patches against the binutils
> development tree for inclusion in binutils if there is any interest in
> this. That, however, would seem pointless if QNX published their
> modifications.

Like for Mr Michot, you can do whatever you want with it.
Since NTO supports ELF, a port for x86 should be straight forward
by anyone. You just need to tweak the config files a bit.

This discussion is off-topic now for a tech. list like
binutils@,  contact your sales rep to get this fix.  If you feel
you've been treated unfairly, you can always drop me a private note.
Communications via different depts in a cie are always difficult and what
comes out from r+d sometimes get distorted in sales, tech-support or hr. 

-- 
au revoir, alain
----
Aussi haut que l'on soit assis, on n'est toujours assis que sur son cul !!!

Re: QNX Neutrino (new targets, GPL) (fwd)

[Anders Norlander]

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On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Alain Magloire wrote:

> Bonjour
> 
>   This was forwarded to me.  I'm not on this list.
> > >    I contacted QNX about their tools since it would be dumb to duplicate the
> > >    effort of porting the tools (and they probably have some knowledge that I
> > >    don't). But QNX refuses to publish the source code for the modified tools.
> 
> Who did you contact ? The src is made available on a per request basis.
> Things are changing and what you got yesterday maybe obsolete tomorrow
> so there is no point to make this widely available now.

I contacted QNX support about the sources, but I could not get them.

[snip] 
> "Distributing GCC for a long time"  QNX as been using Watcomm C, and the
> shift was done to GNU gcc for QNX/Neutrino and it is not even release yet.
> Maybe you are talking about JC Michot port of gcc for QNX and Neutrino
> 1.0 beta/alpha, then you take this up with him.

QNX/Neutrino 2.0 was released a year ago and this includes the QNX 4
hosted tools. The 1.0 alpha version you are talking about is from late
1996, although I don't know if this featured GNU development tools. The
Watcom compiler is only for QNX 4, not neutrino. Yes, JC Michot is the guy
that originally ported the tools, and QNX used this port to begin with (as
I understand it). The version distributed by QNX for neutrino 2.0 is the
JC Michot port. I don´t know what people in QNX have worked on this
recently.

Anyway, no sources are available from QNX or Mr. Michot. 

> > > If you have downloaded a binary compiled from GNU code from QNX, and
> > > they will not provide the source code, then they are violating the
> > > GPL.  You implied that you did that, but you didn't explicitly state
> > > it.  Can you confirm that you have done that?  Which binary was it,
> > > and how did you download it?
> > 
> > The binary is what is distributed with the QNX 4 and QNX/Neutrino 2.0
> > platform. Installing QNX 4 with development tools for QNX/Neutrino will
> > install gcc for QNX/Neutrino MIPS, x86 and PowerPC targets (depending on
> > what you choose). The versions are gcc 2.8.1 and binutils 2.9.1. I hear
> > the upcoming release of QNX/Neutrino is self-hosting but I don't know the
> > version of any tools used, but it is GNU tools from what I know.
> 
> You did not anwser the questions, Neutrino is not a release product,
> Contact again the point where you get this "distribution" and ask
> them for the src of the tools you need, because the src is not on an ftp
> site does not mean it's not available.  Maybe it's just a misunderstanding,
> sometime salesmen do not get it straigth.

I do not understand what you mean by neutrino not being a released
product, it certainly is: I have the installation/release media right
here. When I asked about the sources the answer was that no sources were
available, they had been handed to the FSF. I have not seen any source
code from QNX being contributed to binutils or gcc. There is some support
in config.{sub,guess} for QNX 4, but that is all (no actual code). QNX
still has the responsibility to provide sources for GPL'd software they
distribute, no matter what media is used.

My port of the tools is available at http://www.acc.umu.se/~anorland/nto/
for those interested. I'm willing to provide patches against the binutils
development tree for inclusion in binutils if there is any interest in
this. That, however, would seem pointless if QNX published their
modifications.

Regards,
Anders