Sourceware.Org Mailing Lists 20200830192428

Sourceware.Org Mailing Lists 20200830192428

[Randy Yates]

This email refers to the mailing lists associated with https://sourceware.org/lists.html                  .


On the page "Suggestions" it is stated:


        So, if, for some reason, there is an impediment to your using this site,
        whether psychological, moral, technical, or political, please let us know.


I assume I am addressing Christopher Faylor. I take issue with your statement which
was sent out to the crossgcc mailing list this evening:


Subject:
Unsubscribe  problems  apparently  solved
From:
Christopher  Faylor  <cgf-use-the-mailinglist-please@gcc.gnu.org>
Date:
8/30/20,  4:19  PM
To:  crossgcc@sourceware.org


Hi  all,
The  two  people  for  whom  the  unsubscribe  instructions  "did  not  work"
apparently  managed  to  follow  the  instructions  and  unsubscribe.


Sorry  for  the  noise.   You'd  think  that  a  technical  mailing  list  wouldn't
have  these  types  of  problems.


Btw,  the  name  of  this  mailing  list  is  "crossgcc".   I  don't  know  why
something  is  adding  "crosstool-ng"  to  the  subject  but  it's  not  being
done  by  sourceware.org.


cgf
(20  year  sourceware.org  volunteer  admin)


--
For  unsubscribe  information  see  http://sourceware.org/lists.html#faq


The tenor of your message (e.g., `noise" and "these types of problems") implies we
are idiots. I am a degreed electrical engineer and mathematician and have engineered
hardware, systems, and software for some 40 years now (see https://www.linkedin.com/in/yatescr/                    ).
I submit that these problems are due to several bad server implementation decisions
and poor site design in the web interface layout and text:


    1.  It is at least an unwritten rule in mailing list organization that all "shotgunned"
        messages include a prefix in the subject indicating the mailing list, e.g., [yocto-
        developer], [bacnet], [crossgcc], etc.  However, the crossgcc mailing list does
        not.  This should be corrected.



                                                  1
\f



    2.  Why is the crossgcc list being used for crosstools-ng discussions?  Why not
        have a separate list?  crossgcc is only one of a number of utilities (binutils
        being another) which are commonly used for cross-platform development.

    3.  The sourceware.org mailing lists FAQ is poorly laid out.  It does not flow well.


          (a) The  order  of  the  topics  are  not  ordered  by  the  most  likely  topics  list
              subscribers want to address.

         (b)  There is a block of information at the beginning (prior to the table of
              contents) that diverts the user's attention.  It would be better placed in
              table of contents.

          (c) There is unwanted humor which must be ignored when attempting to
              find useful information.

         (d)  The unsubscription link at the top is idempotent.

          (e) There are links which don't lead anywhere.


    4.  At the bottom of each shotgunned message is a footer/.sig:


        --
        For  unsubscribe  information  see  http://sourceware.org/lists.html#faq


        That link simply leads you to the FAQ which is very general.  It is for three
        different mail list servers, and a multitude of lists on each.

        This requires the user to drill down to the proper topic (unsubscribing), mail
        list server (sourceware.org), and mailing list (crossgcc) before they can actu-
        ally get to the meat of the unsubscription mechanism.

        Instead, the mail server could greatly simplify unsubscribing by generating a
        custom link for the server and list directly into the footer: https://sourceware.org/mailman/listinfo/crossgcc *
 *                          .



----Randy Yates



                                                  2
Randy Yates, DSP/Embedded Firmware Developer
Digital Signal Labs
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

Re: Sourceware.Org Mailing Lists 20200830192428

[Bryan Hundven]

Randy,

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:33 PM Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com>
wrote:

> This email refers to the mailing lists associated with
> https://sourceware.org/lists.html                  .
>
>
> On the page "Suggestions" it is stated:
>
>
>         So, if, for some reason, there is an impediment to your using this
> site,
>         whether psychological, moral, technical, or political, please let
> us know.
>
>
> I assume I am addressing Christopher Faylor. I take issue with your
> statement which
> was sent out to the crossgcc mailing list this evening:
>
>
> Subject:
> Unsubscribe  problems  apparently  solved
> From:
> Christopher  Faylor  <cgf-use-the-mailinglist-please@gcc.gnu.org>
> Date:
> 8/30/20,  4:19  PM
> To:  crossgcc@sourceware.org
>
>
> Hi  all,
> The  two  people  for  whom  the  unsubscribe  instructions  "did  not
> work"
> apparently  managed  to  follow  the  instructions  and  unsubscribe.
>
>
> Sorry  for  the  noise.   You'd  think  that  a  technical  mailing  list
> wouldn't
> have  these  types  of  problems.
>
>
> Btw,  the  name  of  this  mailing  list  is  "crossgcc".   I  don't
> know  why
> something  is  adding  "crosstool-ng"  to  the  subject  but  it's  not
> being
> done  by  sourceware.org.
>
>
> cgf
> (20  year  sourceware.org  volunteer  admin)
>
>
> --
> For  unsubscribe  information  see  http://sourceware.org/lists.html#faq
>
>
> The tenor of your message (e.g., `noise" and "these types of problems")
> implies we
> are idiots. I am a degreed electrical engineer and mathematician and have
> engineered
> hardware, systems, and software for some 40 years now (see
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/yatescr/                    ).
> I submit that these problems are due to several bad server implementation
> decisions
> and poor site design in the web interface layout and text:
>
>
I meant nothing in offense to sourceware, and I was suggesting that we
should remove our changes from the mailing list and keep crosstool-ng on
github.com, as that seems to be the reason that people want to unsubscribe
from the list.


>
>     1.  It is at least an unwritten rule in mailing list organization that
> all "shotgunned"
>         messages include a prefix in the subject indicating the mailing
> list, e.g., [yocto-
>         developer], [bacnet], [crossgcc], etc.  However, the crossgcc
> mailing list does
>         not.  This should be corrected.
>
>
>
>                                                   1
>
>
We have already corrected crosstool-ng to no longer mail crossgcc, again, I
apologize for my poor use of words. I mean no harm.


>
>
>
>     2.  Why is the crossgcc list being used for crosstools-ng
> discussions?  Why not
>         have a separate list?  crossgcc is only one of a number of
> utilities (binutils
>         being another) which are commonly used for cross-platform
> development.
>
>
Again, crosstool-ng development used to happen on this mailing list (for as
far back as I can remember), and we are correcting that now.


>     3.  The sourceware.org mailing lists FAQ is poorly laid out.  It does
> not flow well.
>
>
>           (a) The  order  of  the  topics  are  not  ordered  by  the
> most  likely  topics  list
>               subscribers want to address.
>
>          (b)  There is a block of information at the beginning (prior to
> the table of
>               contents) that diverts the user's attention.  It would be
> better placed in
>               table of contents.
>
>           (c) There is unwanted humor which must be ignored when
> attempting to
>               find useful information.
>
>          (d)  The unsubscription link at the top is idempotent.
>
>           (e) There are links which don't lead anywhere.
>
>
I don't know how to respond to this... I have no administrative ability on
this mailing list. How can I be of service to help this? I want to be
helpful!


>
>     4.  At the bottom of each shotgunned message is a footer/.sig:
>
>
>         --
>         For  unsubscribe  information  see
> http://sourceware.org/lists.html#faq
>
>
>         That link simply leads you to the FAQ which is very general.  It
> is for three
>         different mail list servers, and a multitude of lists on each.
>
>         This requires the user to drill down to the proper topic
> (unsubscribing), mail
>         list server (sourceware.org), and mailing list (crossgcc) before
> they can actu-
>         ally get to the meat of the unsubscription mechanism.
>
>         Instead, the mail server could greatly simplify unsubscribing by
> generating a
>         custom link for the server and list directly into the footer:
> https://sourceware.org/mailman/listinfo/crossgcc *
>  *                          .
>
>
Randy, again, I apologize. I was trying to find someone that can help, as I
have no control over the mailing list, the faq or anything on sourceware. I
do have control over how crosstool-ng messages out, and again, we have
corrected that and will no longer message to crossgcc.

I am 100% honest in my sincerity, and was trying to help.

I hope you can forgive me.


>
>
> ----Randy Yates
>
>
>
>                                                   2
> Randy Yates, DSP/Embedded Firmware Developer
> Digital Signal Labs
> http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
> --
> For unsubscribe information see http://sourceware.org/lists.html#faq


-Bryan Hundven
Admin/Co-Maintainer of Crosstool-NG

Re: Sourceware.Org Mailing Lists 20200830192428

[Christopher Faylor]

Just in case someone is thinking about jumping in to further a
discussion about mailing list design in the crossgcc mailing list -
please don't.  I'll be blocking off-topic discussions as I see them.

Is there an actual cross-whatever project administrator reading this
group?  With the move to new mailing list software at sourceware.org we
now have the ability to have someone besides the global adminstrators
control many of the knobs and levers.

If someone wants to volunteer to take over this mailing list please
send email to crossgcc-owner.

cgf

Re: Sourceware.Org Mailing Lists 20200830192428

[Chris Punches]

Re: Sourceware.Org Mailing Lists 20200830192428

[Chris Punches]

apologies for the cross-post.  unintentional.  please delete if possible. :)