From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) by sourceware.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5B4F385840D for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2022 19:27:57 +0000 (GMT) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.4.1 sourceware.org B5B4F385840D Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=cygwin.com Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; spf=fail smtp.mailfrom=cygwin.com Received: from calimero.vinschen.de ([24.134.7.25]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MVubb-1oP9hO3VbB-00Rov3 for ; Fri, 04 Nov 2022 20:27:55 +0100 Received: by calimero.vinschen.de (Postfix, from userid 500) id 5FA82A80C18; Fri, 4 Nov 2022 20:27:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 20:27:51 +0100 From: Corinna Vinschen To: cygwin-apps@cygwin.com Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Test: grep 3.8 - promotion to current stable Message-ID: Reply-To: cygwin-apps@cygwin.com Mail-Followup-To: cygwin-apps@cygwin.com References: <87fsezx534.fsf@Rainer.invalid> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0UCQK5dOo3US6snrv/i3Uk9Fohat659dxboGrnSoqywaA5Kv1U9 4pAvslz0S1owS17pIpGG1guFmTuo1EMVylJHHrqHCyjq2/CIhb852UggEPRdmMHTE+UcW6Y jm5Rf5Kr6F+wd57W/oYWGNFnAeGDbsgpuW0HfBF8dLypmkbptxjSYCWqqWQ+9cSa6QFGyJq y7mKQcl5Zra7wjGZko/JA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:sp/TeCpeTuU=:AqJKfSqoth4VG1zlAC+zpX l7uf142VVQvlgFadWIn4tMV58mAesluKRMziBkLELyDDhEWL2f4n7vsXnANN/TSM6/A/pv3rv bjBrF8K2I3qgYi9ergJUT6dSy4AGfr4/xdQbbWVFxLurNj7wbNfc2iJmRRoEcJHY/5bt0eC5v Yh5BHJBfOrlKCwev/FvubaGdCseV/z8Mproikz0XptB7m8/7kWzDj8fOHB195+ckirwiq+uSC XQIs9kgu58LE0LULh1ycUhDKYboRSqDg3kgTkwpeg4uQDGAgjcNEPlFV9j8M/5t7We2qEufpU SfEJWCyBJlYb+dmfTFEZoJyrZyje7o6VLr99dQcVUjK5CnxO+uc3ZV0f2WOA9TQ62wq2ULF76 CJDUOwxmFo1xwvRtlJz69c0//e6oJlYky3+IpvyLr8STxbKbYEafXXnLjS04AULTQ5D1GOeSt houAHlbYwz9HV8OgGv9tR/ZKMvxJSbHJkuHL7muHNP0H55RDv/CODf14I5QbA0XSBwUJOAGtM jiBSUJr0cWFBp5edd2rDiXxHXP6LYIxN28mQztCquNbaZno4y/ca0bVl+RKOSEFYu01AxPdLR f8HGZQ9SZamU8XdfSWHSDty780sZQ6TorIS2J3EnmwjN1QVlX0kuvByWLdEb/OemXoGVsxmZe RO1dwEk+mLxNTsKwcfa94a6k9vViHKknuj/BtxnjjL3KmFi4xoDV55a8W92hBkfLWij+JgmLI kuBkzaaVf9vQwiGmnjNQUlWd65dFbFqifgfUe+r9LRTWJGK45DMdB5HE1n2MxrYNPAURIzsS/ k5pUEQkOJGhWo9qyvy/b3bfqkf9Mw== X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,GOOD_FROM_CORINNA_CYGWIN,KAM_DMARC_NONE,KAM_DMARC_STATUS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,SPF_FAIL,SPF_HELO_NONE,TXREP autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.6 (2021-04-09) on server2.sourceware.org List-Id: On Nov 4 13:07, Brian Inglis wrote: > On Thu, 03 Nov 2022 19:31:27 +0100, Achim Gratz wrote: > > Brian Inglis writes: > > > Suggest that I could come up with a package grep-nowarn which can only > > > suppress the [ef]grep warnings, where the package would install > > > [ef]grep-nowarn, and the postinstall script could rename the > > > distributed shell scripts to [ef]grep-warn, and install alternatives > > > with -warn priority 10, -nowarn priority 20; preremove would reverse > > > the process. > > > > > > Suggestions to accommodate -nowarn from grep package postinstall? > > > I could supply the same postinstall and preremove as -nowarn to check > > > for -nowarn and install or uninstall the alternative. > > > > > > Sequence or timing issues to watch out for during postinstall/preremove? > > > As Corinna already said, why GNU suddenly cares so much about strict > > POSIX conformance in this case is puzzling. If anything they should > > have left the decision to packagers and IMNHO the warning should only be > > presented when POSIXLY_CORRECT is set in the environment, if at all. > > The patch to the wrapper script(s) in question is trivial and several > > Linux distributions have removed the warning already (if you do this, > > also change the interpreter from bash to dash). Just skip any > > extra packages and do the same. > > The issue does not appear to be about POSIX compliance, but that [ef]grep > were dropped from POSIX before 2008 and declared obsolescent, so the > maintainers appear to be looking to drop those commands/scripts. This is a usability issue. If upstream thinks they have to do such a potentially destructive and backward-incompatible change for no other reason than "is not in POSIX", they can do so, but there's no good reason the distros who *care* for usability have to do this either. > > You could perhaps reach out to Eric Blake or Jim Meyering who are in the GNU > grep contributor lists for rationale. > > While Debian and OpenSuSE have reverted that change, Fedora has not in main > or rawhide. Right, Debian and OpenSuSE revert the change and the BSDs will not break e/fgrep either, obviously. I doubt Ubuntu will do that. Fedora often values progress, for a given value of "progress", higher than usability. They will probably see lots of Bugzillas and user requests in other forums due to this change and then ignore them. But that doesn't mean we have to do it. Again: Egrep and fgrep are used in lots of scripts around the world. A change like this will have a massive impact for years to come. So, again, in the name of usability, let's follow Debian and OpenSuSE here, not Fedora, please. Corinna