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* Re: 1NIWGYC.DLL ??
@ 2005-12-16 20:50 Tevfik Karagülle
  2005-12-18 17:10 ` Reini Urban
  2005-12-18 19:01 ` Christopher Faylor
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Tevfik Karagülle @ 2005-12-16 20:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: cygwin-licensing


Thanks for your feedback. As long as I understand, what I intend to do does not violate Cygwin
licensing.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 06:35:24PM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote:

>Just renaming the DLL and registry keys is not enough to avoid
>conflicts with an existing cygwin1.dll.  You will also have to modifiy
>the name of the shared memory region and all other shared objects.

Ok. Renaming DLLs, registry references and shared memory name 
(cygwin1S4??) would be worth to try then.

>It seems like there is no benefit to this distribution if the user is
>running cygwin anyway.  If they are running cygwin then they should just
>use the openssh that comes with cygwin.

I am not so sure about it. I am a dedicated cygwin user since early 90s. 
However, I don't want to run an ssh daemon within my cygwin development
environment, where I might try/test many different things. What I want to is 
to establish a secure channel to my machine remotely by using ssh daemon, 
running its own limited and safe environment for the sake of security. 
The same applies for an rsync environment where a crucial operation like a 
remote backup can be initiated. I think those special environments require 
their own setup.

>If this is really important, wouldn't it be better to work on providing
>a minimal openssh setup via a category in the current cygwin setup.exe?

That would be the best solution if it allows to establish separate environments.

>IMO, repackaging other people's stuff will usually lead to extra work
>for the repackager and confusion for the end user.

I believe that what I do does not complicate user's lives. 
On the contrary, I suppose. Cygwin is a great solution. 
Too great to be forced into one single environment.

>Cygwin is a community project.  You can make changes if you're
>persuasive enough and if you have the proper skills.

My contribution (!) is next to nothing in comparison to the work cygwin 
developers do for the cygwin development. I just try to add some more 
convenience. That's all :-))

Best regards

Tev


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: 1NIWGYC.DLL ??
  2005-12-16 20:50 1NIWGYC.DLL ?? Tevfik Karagülle
@ 2005-12-18 17:10 ` Reini Urban
  2005-12-18 19:01 ` Christopher Faylor
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Reini Urban @ 2005-12-18 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tevfik Karagülle; +Cc: cygwin-licensing

Tevfik Karagülle schrieb:
>>Cygwin is a community project.  You can make changes if you're
>>persuasive enough and if you have the proper skills.
> 
> My contribution (!) is next to nothing in comparison to the work cygwin 
> developers do for the cygwin development. I just try to add some more 
> convenience. That's all :-))

Sounds great!
Where can I download the source for your nsis installer?
I could need it also. I just want to make it properly, without renaming.

-- 
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.org/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: 1NIWGYC.DLL ??
  2005-12-16 20:50 1NIWGYC.DLL ?? Tevfik Karagülle
  2005-12-18 17:10 ` Reini Urban
@ 2005-12-18 19:01 ` Christopher Faylor
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Faylor @ 2005-12-18 19:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: cygwin-licensing

I was going to just let this go but, after talking to Corinna and
learning that we're on the same page about this, I guess I can't.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 09:47:17PM +0100, Tevfik Karag?lle wrote:
>Thanks for your feedback.  As long as I understand, what I intend to do
>does not violate Cygwin licensing.
>
>On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 06:35:24PM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote:
>
>>Just renaming the DLL and registry keys is not enough to avoid
>>conflicts with an existing cygwin1.dll.  You will also have to modifiy
>>the name of the shared memory region and all other shared objects.
>
>Ok.  Renaming DLLs, registry references and shared memory name
>(cygwin1S4??) would be worth to try then.
>
>>It seems like there is no benefit to this distribution if the user is
>>running cygwin anyway.  If they are running cygwin then they should
>>just use the openssh that comes with cygwin.
>
>I am not so sure about it.  I am a dedicated cygwin user since early
>90s.  However, I don't want to run an ssh daemon within my cygwin
>development environment, where I might try/test many different things.
>What I want to is to establish a secure channel to my machine remotely
>by using ssh daemon, running its own limited and safe environment for
>the sake of security.  The same applies for an rsync environment where
>a crucial operation like a remote backup can be initiated.  I think
>those special environments require their own setup.

You seem to have skipped over my observation that some cygwin
applications won't work very well in your 1NIWGYC.DLL environment.

I don't know what you mean by "cygwin development environment" but,
AFAIK, you are not developing the cygwin DLL.  If you are just
downloading the latest version of the cygwin distribution and don't want
to somehow destabilize your openssh setup then it seems like working
with the setup.exe and openssh maintainers is the best way to accomplish
this.

It really sounds like you are interested in providing workarounds for
what you perceive to be problems with the cygwin distribution rather
than working towards fixing the problems.  I suspect that your efforts
will just serve to confuse people and so I'm not happy with the way you
are proceeding and I will certainly publicly express my dissatisfaction
the first time someone posts a question about "your" version of openssh
and whatever-you-call-the-dll on the cygwin list.

So, yes, this is a GPL project and you can take the software, rename it
and massage it to do whatever you want with it.  That does not mean that
it is the right thing to do or that your efforts will be appreciated by
the people who are providing the software, however.

cgf

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: 1NIWGYC.DLL ??
@ 2005-12-19 12:20 Tevfik Karagülle
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Tevfik Karagülle @ 2005-12-19 12:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: cygwin-licensing



> I don't know what you mean by "cygwin development environment" but,
> AFAIK, you are not developing the cygwin DLL.

What do you call if I use a cygwin environment for development and testing ?
Such environments should be separated from production environments where
Openshh/rsync could be used as elements. That's my point !!!

> downloading the latest version of the cygwin distribution and don't want
> to somehow destabilize your openssh setup then it seems like working
> with the setup.exe and openssh maintainers is the best way to accomplish
> this.

I can only say that there are (should be!!) other ways to do the same thing.
In addition, as I wrote in my previous post, the best solution would be to use 
a cygwin setup, which allows several separated environments. Platform
virtualization is a hot topic nowadays. Why can't cygwin also offer that 
functionality? 

> It really sounds like you are interested in providing workarounds for
> what you perceive to be problems with the cygwin distribution rather
> than working towards fixing the problems.

Sorry, I don't agree with you. Maybe, I fix some problems which have low
priority in your list. When it comes to workarounds, they will always exist.

> I suspect that your efforts will just serve to confuse people and so 
> I'm not happy with the way you are proceeding and I will certainly 
> publicly express my dissatisfaction the first time someone posts
> a question about "your" version of openssh and whatever-you-call-the-dll 
> on the cygwin list. 

Confusing people ? How can I do that with developing an installer installing
a fully operational openssh server and make it ready for use within one minute?
Disturbing your forums happened only once during the copssh lifetime. BTW,
The full blown cygwin installation had the same problem.

I've just tried to express a need. I feel that I don't deserve your comments above.

> So, yes, this is a GPL project and you can take the software, 
> rename it and massage it to do whatever you want with it.  That does not mean
> that it is the right thing to do or that your efforts will be appreciated by
> the people who are providing the software, however.

Both Copssh and Cwrsync are free software. As of december 2005, they are being
downloaded ca. 300 times daily and I get many mails from users expressing their 
appreciations. What's the right thing to do ? To continue with this effort? To express
a growing demand and a possible solution to cygwin developers ? I did it both !!!!

Tev


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: 1NIWGYC.DLL ??
  2005-12-16  2:57 ` Brian Dessent
@ 2005-12-16  3:20   ` Christopher Faylor
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Faylor @ 2005-12-16  3:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: cygwin-licensing

On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 06:35:24PM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote:
>Tevfik Karag?lle wrote:
>>on the target machine.  However, It is tempting to find an ultimate
>>solution to this problem: renaming dlls and registry references.  I
>>have tested and verified that it is technically possible.
>
>Just renaming the DLL and registry keys is not enough to avoid
>conflicts with an existing cygwin1.dll.  You will also have to modifiy
>the name of the shared memory region and all other shared objects.

Right, and cygwin programs run by this forked version of openssh/cygwin
in an interactive session will not know they are running in a pty and
will work strangely.  So, if the intent is to interoperate with cygwin
then this isn't a great plan.

It seems like there is no benefit to this distribution if the user is
running cygwin anyway.  If they are running cygwin then they should just
use the openssh that comes with cygwin.

From a licensing point of view you can do anything you want as long as
>you provide the source packages to build the binaries.  AFAIK.  IANAL. 
>etc.

What he said.  The GPL doesn't say anything about renaming files.

If this is really important, wouldn't it be better to work on providing
a minimal openssh setup via a category in the current cygwin setup.exe?
IMO, repackaging other people's stuff will usually lead to extra work
for the repackager and confusion for the end user.

Cygwin is a community project.  You can make changes if you're
persuasive enough and if you have the proper skills.

cgf

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: 1NIWGYC.DLL ??
  2005-12-16  2:19 Tevfik Karagülle
@ 2005-12-16  2:57 ` Brian Dessent
  2005-12-16  3:20   ` Christopher Faylor
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Brian Dessent @ 2005-12-16  2:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: cygwin-licensing

Tevfik Karagülle wrote:

> on the target machine. However, It is tempting to find an ultimate solution to this problem:
> renaming dlls and registry references. I have tested and verified that it is technically possible.

Just renaming the DLL and registry keys is not enough to avoid conflicts
with an existing cygwin1.dll.  You will also have to modifiy the name of
the shared memory region and all other shared objects.

From a licensing point of view you can do anything you want as long as
you provide the source packages to build the binaries.  AFAIK.  IANAL. 
etc.

Brian

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* 1NIWGYC.DLL ??
@ 2005-12-16  2:19 Tevfik Karagülle
  2005-12-16  2:57 ` Brian Dessent
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Tevfik Karagülle @ 2005-12-16  2:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: cygwin-licensing

Hi,

I maintain two free packages containing essential cygwin elements:

- COPSSH - OpenSSH Client and Server for Windows (2,7 MB) - http://itefix.no/copssh
- CWRSYNC - Rsync Client and Server for Windows (2,6 MB) - http://itefix.no/cwrsync

My goal is to make openssh and rsync easily available on windows, in form of small specialized
installers (I use http://nsis.sourceforge.net at the moment)

Sources of all GPL software used in those packages are available from the same web-site as binaries
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/sereds).

As you can guess easily, there is an irritation moment here: possibility of cygwin1.dll conflicts.
My installers produce warnings if cygwin or something else dependent on cygwin is already installed
on the target machine. However, It is tempting to find an ultimate solution to this problem:
renaming dlls and registry references. I have tested and verified that it is technically possible. 

Part of cygwin licensing addressing cygwin1.dll says: " Note that this does not apply to the cygwin
DLL itself. If you distribute a (possibly modified) version of the DLL you must adhere to the terms
of the GPL, i.e. you must provide sources for the cygwin DLL."

My licensing question is: Would it be a license infringement if I distribute free packages with
renamed dlls and registry references ?

Best regards

Tevfik Karagülle
Senior Consultant
ITeF!x Consulting

http://itefix.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2005-12-19 12:20 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2005-12-16 20:50 1NIWGYC.DLL ?? Tevfik Karagülle
2005-12-18 17:10 ` Reini Urban
2005-12-18 19:01 ` Christopher Faylor
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2005-12-19 12:20 Tevfik Karagülle
2005-12-16  2:19 Tevfik Karagülle
2005-12-16  2:57 ` Brian Dessent
2005-12-16  3:20   ` Christopher Faylor

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