From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 119555 invoked by alias); 1 Apr 2016 23:13:30 -0000 Mailing-List: contact cygwin-talk-help@cygwin.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: cygwin-talk-owner@cygwin.com Reply-To: The Vulgar and Unprofessional Cygwin-Talk List Mail-Followup-To: cygwin-talk@cygwin.com Received: (qmail 119532 invoked by uid 89); 1 Apr 2016 23:13:28 -0000 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; auth=none X-Virus-Found: No X-Spam-SWARE-Status: No, score=1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_50,KAM_LAZY_DOMAIN_SECURITY,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 spammy=vast, setupexe, setup.exe, UD:setup.exe X-HELO: etr-usa.com Received: from etr-usa.com (HELO etr-usa.com) (130.94.180.135) by sourceware.org (qpsmtpd/0.93/v0.84-503-g423c35a) with ESMTP; Fri, 01 Apr 2016 23:13:18 +0000 Received: (qmail 98118 invoked by uid 13447); 1 Apr 2016 23:13:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO polypore.west.etr-usa.com) ([73.26.17.49]) (envelope-sender ) by 130.94.180.135 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Apr 2016 23:13:17 -0000 From: Warren Young Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: SFU rides again! Message-Id: <3B3CDED8-3C2C-484A-BFB1-671916EC8B24@etr-usa.com> Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 23:13:00 -0000 To: The Vulgar and Unprofessional Cygwin-Talk List Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-IsSubscribed: yes X-SW-Source: 2016-q2/txt/msg00000.txt.bz2 No, it=E2=80=99s not an April Fool=E2=80=99s joke; this was announced a few= days ago: https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2016/C906 Basically, it seems they=E2=80=99ve replaced the old, deprecated, Interix-o= riginated SFU with an Ubuntu-based replacement with all of the same limitat= ions and advantages of SFU, except that it=E2=80=99s now Ubuntu-based inste= ad of a bare-bones POSIX userland: Disadvantages: - Uses the NT subsystem mechanism, so processes are isolated. Running ELF = binaries don=E2=80=99t show up in Windows Task Manager, and Ubuntu=E2=80=99= s ps can=E2=80=99t see Windows processes. - Similarly, the userlands are entirely isolated. You can=E2=80=99t run no= tepad.exe from bash.exe, and you can=E2=80=99t run a Bash shell script from= PowerShell. But, you could write out a Bash shell script from a PowerShel= l script, then Alt-Tab over to your Bash console and run it, because the tw= o userlands share a filesystem=E2=80=A6 - =E2=80=A6kind of. The Windows Bash shell sees drive letters as /mnt/c an= d such, so it can see any file visible in Windows Explorer, but the Ubuntu = userland is isolated under your %APPDATA% folder, so you *might* not be abl= e to write files to it from outside. - It doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have AD/SAM integration. Each Windows user ge= ts a separate Ubuntu environment, and users created within that environment= are separate from Windows users. - Windows 10 only. - According to the video, 64-bit only, but that might just be the developer= misunderstanding the question. - No X11. Only command line apps will work. - According to the video, their pty emulation is currently weak, so that tm= ux, sshd, etc. don=E2=80=99t yet work well, if at all. But, it sounds like= they want to have that fixed PDQ. - Currently, you=E2=80=99re running with Admin privileges, shown as root in= side the Ubuntu environment. But, they say there will be proper privilege = separation by ship time, some time this summer. They even claim to be work= ing on sudo! Same-Same Relative to Cygwin: - Provides /dev, /proc, etc. - The Ubuntu home directories are segregated from the Windows home director= ies, by default. You could probably edit /etc/passwd to merge them. - By default, it ships using the native Windows console, but I suspect you = could get MinTTY to tie into this, so I=E2=80=99m calling it same-same. If= not, then this switches to a disadvantage, since even with the vast improv= ements in the Windows 10 console relative to earlier Windows, it=E2=80=99s = still not on par with MinTTY. - Because it=E2=80=99s using the same NTFS filesystem, it=E2=80=99s case-pr= eserving but case-insenstitive. Advantages: - Compiles to ELF binaries which make direct WSL (Windows Subsystem for Lin= ux) syscalls into the NT kernel, which are translated in-kernel to NT kerne= l calls, so it=E2=80=99ll probably be a lot faster than Cygwin, and probabl= y more secure, too. - The Ubuntu package repo is probably larger than Cygwin=E2=80=99s by sever= al times. Maybe an order of magnitude. - According to the video, they=E2=80=99ve got about a dozen people working = on this full-time, and they=E2=80=99re leveraging the Ubuntu package repo a= nd userland tools, so you can=E2=80=99t count the Cygwin package maintainer= s in our corner. That pretty much makes the battle Microsoft vs. Corinna, = one with a ~20 year head start, but the other coming up real fast on her s= ix. The only question in my mind is how far they=E2=80=99ll push this befo= re they reassign those developers. How many years did they let SFU stagnat= e, again? - APT vs setup.exe. Sorry, setup.exe devs, but APT=E2=80=99s got you smoke= d. Unknown: - Does it do POSIX permissions and ACLs correctly? - Although they claim no X11, it should still let you host GUI apps on an X= 11 server running outside the WSL subsystems, since the two worlds share a = network stack. That is, if you start Cygwin=E2=80=99s X server, I suspect = this will work: DISPLAY=3D:0.0 xeyes Because it=E2=80=99s localhost, it mi= ght not need any monkeying with xhost. - The video claims the Windows 10 console host will be getting VT100 emulat= ion to support all this. I suspect that=E2=80=99s not quite true, and that= it=E2=80=99s really yet another ANSI X3.64 variant, closer to TERM=3Dlinux= than to =3Dvt100. It must be, since they showed colored text.