From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11716 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 2016 23:15:37 -0000 Mailing-List: contact cygwin-talk-help@cygwin.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: cygwin-talk-owner@cygwin.com Reply-To: The Vulgar and Unprofessional Cygwin-Talk List Mail-Followup-To: cygwin-talk@cygwin.com Received: (qmail 11699 invoked by uid 89); 2 Apr 2016 23:15:36 -0000 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; auth=none X-Virus-Found: No X-Spam-SWARE-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 spammy=fuse, Hx-languages-length:4572, her, secure X-HELO: mout.gmx.net Received: from mout.gmx.net (HELO mout.gmx.net) (212.227.15.18) by sourceware.org (qpsmtpd/0.93/v0.84-503-g423c35a) with (AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted) ESMTPS; Sat, 02 Apr 2016 23:15:26 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([46.163.75.188]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MRXzM-1bF4Gv2Fse-00SjYX; Sun, 03 Apr 2016 01:15:21 +0200 Subject: Re: SFU rides again! To: cygwin-talk@cygwin.com References: <3B3CDED8-3C2C-484A-BFB1-671916EC8B24@etr-usa.com> From: Herbert Stocker Message-ID: <57005287.8030709@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2016 23:15:00 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B3CDED8-3C2C-484A-BFB1-671916EC8B24@etr-usa.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:9emS/dBf2G0=:EQRN85ci8VeC314eYZt5ss 8QX3Og4adfqzLG/BCc0Mg5bAGscT5cT4FMNiwmKDR3fnTply622lLAkuX44qVo19RhSKTmbFY dKeHXO3NbRwNemjlzSFBAfB2krt/S02whg+EjA7AX17kptsXKo5/yDSXezqX2jUVEDSUfev17 7vornuuISX/4R7UKzTLgniFYV6g91G99drw6ip3ItpC2QnHZI7S3V4FST9PZztqXpnKva5chV ysbFe4YHHCOtp2i2lpJpDkcRkpA760iOSa9HIFEimeeE2Bzz6D1XrrYLyGNE6bFapfjoZDl45 iPt0FsPWMOsBElCUMnoWFrDg344yJYq4+kw5e90FP8wSDOVa75kxA9mJGjiXzpjBP/v4Vyqz8 XdW2q5+9t6N7+Zl7nn8EzETxzc1d0jQUX46VjfSywfNiiwEIIH32TAEXH5NoAK3YxMM5sUrK1 TkYf5AT+yCnzpRi3yL8EAED7OBzJ47IjfF1cIQ6MXxA/WFUP1D7sRt7ZcNleEWHl9wEnVQnoJ 2P3Ec90mcqUVas0SUMNtz5bFMt7zDOGsBFAsbqxqjDkIuGKfjAjfRwrss4/IXuJm8gehEGB7v LiDy7sIckt5B7iNgJbQBxxzX8QVKf8RAYK8hWnZIDSA2KkT9NPBEBHGP6qZAoRUKwqjlTL/m3 VOJovCbnR2Zd+U+FyCsfQFagvZqiAoiVlhWJiRKmOmHHhLmz8Lj+/H8mRfP2+MHkV85eGpEpt /mU88tAv4k/fJRXjU5Cb6MN2KN+szOPZIZ94iVgrPfpdj/XFAt0Kh6Kj/KlGks5EiDShpI0wQ Yrq6qK8 X-IsSubscribed: yes X-SW-Source: 2016-q2/txt/msg00001.txt.bz2 On 02.04.2016 01:13, Warren Young wrote: > No, it’s not an April Fool’s joke; this was announced a few days ago: > > https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2016/C906 > > Basically, it seems they’ve replaced the old, deprecated, Interix-originated SFU with an Ubuntu-based replacement with all of the same limitations and advantages of SFU, except that it’s now Ubuntu-based instead of a bare-bones POSIX userland: > > > Disadvantages: > > - Uses the NT subsystem mechanism, so processes are isolated. Running ELF binaries don’t show up in Windows Task Manager, and Ubuntu’s ps can’t see Windows processes. > > - Similarly, the userlands are entirely isolated. You can’t run notepad.exe from bash.exe, and you can’t run a Bash shell script from PowerShell. But, you could write out a Bash shell script from a PowerShell script, then Alt-Tab over to your Bash console and run it, because the two userlands share a filesystem… > > - …kind of. The Windows Bash shell sees drive letters as /mnt/c and such, so it can see any file visible in Windows Explorer, but the Ubuntu userland is isolated under your %APPDATA% folder, so you *might* not be able to write files to it from outside. > > - It doesn’t seem to have AD/SAM integration. Each Windows user gets a separate Ubuntu environment, and users created within that environment are separate from Windows users. > > - Windows 10 only. > > - According to the video, 64-bit only, but that might just be the developer misunderstanding the question. > > - No X11. Only command line apps will work. > > - According to the video, their pty emulation is currently weak, so that tmux, sshd, etc. don’t yet work well, if at all. But, it sounds like they want to have that fixed PDQ. > > - Currently, you’re running with Admin privileges, shown as root inside the Ubuntu environment. But, they say there will be proper privilege separation by ship time, some time this summer. They even claim to be working on sudo! > > > > Same-Same Relative to Cygwin: > > - Provides /dev, /proc, etc. > > - The Ubuntu home directories are segregated from the Windows home directories, by default. You could probably edit /etc/passwd to merge them. > > - By default, it ships using the native Windows console, but I suspect you could get MinTTY to tie into this, so I’m calling it same-same. If not, then this switches to a disadvantage, since even with the vast improvements in the Windows 10 console relative to earlier Windows, it’s still not on par with MinTTY. > > - Because it’s using the same NTFS filesystem, it’s case-preserving but case-insenstitive. > > > > Advantages: > > - Compiles to ELF binaries which make direct WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) syscalls into the NT kernel, which are translated in-kernel to NT kernel calls, so it’ll probably be a lot faster than Cygwin, and probably more secure, too. > > - The Ubuntu package repo is probably larger than Cygwin’s by several times. Maybe an order of magnitude. > > - According to the video, they’ve got about a dozen people working on this full-time, and they’re leveraging the Ubuntu package repo and userland tools, so you can’t count the Cygwin package maintainers in our corner. That pretty much makes the battle Microsoft vs. Corinna, one with a ~20 year head start, but the other coming up real fast on her six. The only question in my mind is how far they’ll push this before they reassign those developers. How many years did they let SFU stagnate, again? > > - APT vs setup.exe. Sorry, setup.exe devs, but APT’s got you smoked. > I'd add here: - Their fork call won't have bloda issues. - FUSE. i guess they don't currently plan to support it, but if/when they add support for FUSE they would open Windows for a large group of applications. Something that Cygwin does not provide. > > Unknown: > > - Does it do POSIX permissions and ACLs correctly? > > - Although they claim no X11, it should still let you host GUI apps on an X11 server running outside the WSL subsystems, since the two worlds share a network stack. That is, if you start Cygwin’s X server, I suspect this will work: DISPLAY=:0.0 xeyes Because it’s localhost, it might not need any monkeying with xhost. > > - The video claims the Windows 10 console host will be getting VT100 emulation to support all this. I suspect that’s not quite true, and that it’s really yet another ANSI X3.64 variant, closer to TERM=linux than to =vt100. It must be, since they showed colored text. > Thanks for the great Cygwin, Herbert