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* Re: What is Cygwin and MinGW [WAS: Request new Ruby release]
       [not found] ` <5afa206a.1c69fb81.2121e.da3a@mx.google.com>
@ 2018-05-15 13:18   ` cyg Simple
  2018-05-15 14:02   ` Request new Ruby release cyg Simple
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 2+ messages in thread
From: cyg Simple @ 2018-05-15 13:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: cygwin-talk; +Cc: cygwin

I'm moving this to the Cygwin-Talk list.

On 5/14/2018 7:48 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
> On Mon, 14 May 2018 10:31:18, cyg Simple wrote:

>> And you a free to do so.  MinGW isn't GCC
> 
> yes it is. when you compile GCC, as i have done:
> 
> http://github.com/svnpenn/glade/blob/master/mingw-w64-x86-64/gcc
> 
> you choose a target. normally for this community that is
> "x86_64-pc-cygwin", but
> in my case it is "x86_64-w64-mingw32". but you dont use some magical
> "MinGW"
> repo, its the same GCC. granted, you do need to also install the target
> "binutils", "headers" and "runtime", but the same source is used to
> build GCC
> itself.
> 

And given this you think Cygwin is also GCC.  WRONG, MinGW and Cygwin
are just the runtime libraries required to build GCC and other packages.
 GCC is a separate entity that has its own process of accepting patches
for using runtime libraries.  Binutils also is a separate entity that
uses even different methods of patching requirements as both Cygwin and
GCC.  Anyone who states that the GCC product is an entity other than GCC
isn't thinking clearly about the various pieces and parts.

Now to make Cygwin or MinGW useful you need the other pieces and parts
but those pieces and parts do not become the entity of Cygwin or MinGW.
Cygwin and MinGW remain a separate entity providing the runtime
libraries to use to build other pieces and parts.

-- 
cyg Simple

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 2+ messages in thread

* Re: Request new Ruby release
       [not found] ` <5afa206a.1c69fb81.2121e.da3a@mx.google.com>
  2018-05-15 13:18   ` What is Cygwin and MinGW [WAS: Request new Ruby release] cyg Simple
@ 2018-05-15 14:02   ` cyg Simple
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 2+ messages in thread
From: cyg Simple @ 2018-05-15 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: cygwin-talk

I'm moving this discussion to Cygwin-Talk

On 5/14/2018 7:48 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
> On Mon, 14 May 2018 10:31:18, cyg Simple wrote:
>>> because they have merit? i said that already.
>>>
>>
>> Since you stated in the form of a question, I can say for me, they do
>> not and based on the conversation of others, not for anyone but you.
> 
> let me rephrase: they have merit, full stop. Example 1, quoting myself:
> 

Yes, as I said, it has merit but only to you.

>> yaakov said he would look into it after 2.5.1 came out
> 
> fact. here is the proof:
> 
> http://github.com/cygwinports/ruby/issues/1
> 

And you think Yaakov doesn't follow the release schedules of the
applications he builds for release for Cygwin so you must insult him by
poking him with a hot iron of Steven. Crack the whip and say get busy
slave I'm your master.  I know you don't mean to be that but that is the
way it is perceived.

> Example 2, quoting myself again:
> 
>> and its out:
> 
> fact. here is the proof:
> 
> http://github.com/ruby/ruby/releases/tag/v2_5_1
> 

So what?!  You think Yaakov hasn't seen this?  If you need it faster
than the maintainer has time to do it for you then you have the
opportunity to do it yourself.  You are being read as brash even though
you might not mean to be.

> Example 3, quoting myself again:
> 
>> and yaakov handles a massive amount of packages
> 
> fact. here is the proof:
> 
> http://cygwin.com/cygwin-pkg-maint
> 

And is also the proof that you manage none.

> Example 4, quoting myself again:
> 
>> cygwin *does* keep up to date with *some* important packages
> 
> fact. example is the Git package, which as of this writing is totally up to
> date:
> 
> - http://cygwin.mirrors.hoobly.com/x86_64/release/git
> - http://github.com/git/git/releases
> 

Git is a self contain package that is easier to test.  Ruby is a package
that requires extensive testing and other packages require.  It is those
dependencies that make it more difficult to release.

> Example 5, quoting myself again:
> 
>> but not other important packages
> 
> fact. Current Cygwin Ruby is 2.3, which was released Dec 2015:
> 
> - http://cygwin.mirrors.hoobly.com/x86_64/release/ruby
> - http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_%28programming_language%29#Ruby_2.3
> 
>> A base package such as GCC requires time to release to an OS and Cygwin
>> is a emulation of an OS.
> 
> thats what test package is for
> 

Package tests do not give real world results.  Real world tests require
an infusion of many packages and takes time.

>> Releasing just because its fresh off the press isn't going to happen.
> 
> like me, i dont see you on this list:
> 
> http://cygwin.com/cygwin-pkg-maint
> 

I'm not and I'm not making any demands from the maintainers in it either.

> so i'd say you arent in a position to say that. test packages allow this to
> happen if the maintainer chooses.
> 

See the comment above.

>> You have the opportunity to build it for yourself if you need it
>> sooner but
>> then you are on your own.
> 
> I have mentioned twice already that i have done this:
> 
> - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00099.html
> - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00082.html
> 

Great, then just use them and wait.

>>>> Jon does not maintain all of the cross-compilers,
>>>
>>> yes he does?
>>>
>>
>> In the form of a question again, he definitely does a great job.
> 
> what criteria are you basing this comment on? i am not arguing with you
> on this
> point per se. i have given concrete arguments here where release
> velocity could
> be improved:
> 

Your expectation of "release velocity could be improved" is where your
crassness and brashness shines.  You have an expectation that isn't
attainable in the Open Source world unless a business is backing the
project with funds and permanent employees.  That isn't the case for
either Cygwin or MinGW.

> - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00099.html
> - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00086.html
> - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00082.html
> - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00076.html
> 
>> Why are you not "blessed" with your work?  If you provide a service to
>> Cygwin then why aren't you in the cygwin-pkg-maint list?  It's because
>> you haven't requested to maintain a package.
> 
> perhaps you should read the entire thread - i see you missed my other
> posts,
> but it seems you missed Smoogen as well:
> 
> http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00087.html
> 

To which you didn't respond and to which I agree with.

>> And then you offend the maintainers who provide their time to provide
>> you a service of distribution.
> 
> thats your opinion, and its not germane to this topic. the original
> topic is
> requesting a ruby release, as it is out of date.
> 

It's very much on topic as you are again showing your crassness and
brashness.

>> If you want to maintain or co-maintain a package then ask to see if the
>> maintainer needs help.
> 
> i dont want to do that, but i will volunteer if a spot opens.
> 

I'm not understanding, which is it, you "don't want to do that" or you
"will volunteer if a spot opens"?  A spot is always open so feel free to
volunteer but I think that you "don't want to do that".

>> You haven't done that, you DEMAND that a release be made. You might
>> not see it
>> as a DEMAND but it is one.
> 
> sry, nop.
> 
>> And you a free to do so.  MinGW isn't GCC
> 
> yes it is. when you compile GCC, as i have done:
> 
> http://github.com/svnpenn/glade/blob/master/mingw-w64-x86-64/gcc
> 
> you choose a target. normally for this community that is
> "x86_64-pc-cygwin", but
> in my case it is "x86_64-w64-mingw32". but you dont use some magical
> "MinGW"
> repo, its the same GCC. granted, you do need to also install the target
> "binutils", "headers" and "runtime", but the same source is used to
> build GCC
> itself.
> 

Addressed separately.

>> Maybe to you it doesn't seem like a crazy DEMAND but perhaps there are
>> reasons you're unaware of.  Ask to help rather than DEMANDing.
> 
> again not a demand.
> 
>> While your intention isn't one of insults those who maintain the
>> packages read them as such because you DEMAND more of their time with no
>> effort toward progressing Cygwin from yourself.  That is the insult.
> 
> i am not demanding anything. i am stating what i think are reasonable
> expectations for any software community. if they want to ignore them, thats
> their business. ive already moved on, i build my own GCC, which i will
> use until
> the official one drops. however note this: GCC 7 was released over a
> year ago:
> 
> http://gnu.mirrors.hoobly.com/gcc/gcc-7.1.0
> 
> if a test package was dropped at that time, we could have tested for 6
> months,
> then released a final build, and still been 6 months ahead of the current
> schedule.

The fact that a test build wasn't released doesn't mean that you can't
test it.  You've proven that you can do a test by building the package
yourself and use it.  That's great but your expectation on a community
of people working for free to hurry up and get out a release I can
officially use isn't taken well.  They just become irate and tell you to
go to hell thinking who the hell does he think he is making such demands
when he doesn't even contribute.  Just because you have your own builds
and releases doesn't mean that you've become a respected part of that
community as there is no proof in the community of having given anything
to them.

Steven, I think you're hard working and have good work ethic.  I just
think you're not working well with those who give their time freely in
that they don't see you doing the same.  Show yourself to be giving of
your time instead of making demands for a release of some product will
go better.

-- 
cyg Simple

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 2+ messages in thread

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2018-05-15 13:18   ` What is Cygwin and MinGW [WAS: Request new Ruby release] cyg Simple
2018-05-15 14:02   ` Request new Ruby release cyg Simple

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