Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[mwoehlke <mwoehlke@tibco.com>]

Bruce Wehr wrote:
> Matthew wrote:
>> Bruce Wehr wrote:
>>> I was introduced to Usenet on or about 1985.
>>> See how many times I've been flamed.
>> Ok, I accept your challenge. This post, and the previous one, 
>> are at fault. I don't know what reputation you have on 
>> USENET, and I don't have time to kill "finding out", but 
>> you've already grossly violated netiquette for *this* list 
>> not once, but twice.
> 
> Twice?  Interesting ...

Yup, but welcome to the club of TITTTL violators. I think we've come to 
consensus on the first one.

>> First off, go read <http://cygwin.com/lists.html> (which you 
>> should have read before posting *anything*)
> 
> Hmmm ... I did so, and find your assumption otherwise very presumptuous.  I
> hope you don't mind, but I'd like to share with the group that which I said
> to you in a private email.

Nope, I was tempted to ask to FW my reply to it here. :-)

And #1 wasn't an OT, it was, as GHVS pointed out the backstory (which is 
now beating a dead horse, as per the above comment). The original post 
was on-topic.

> <- begin email quote ->
> 
> I did read that page, front to back, top to bottom and left to right before
> I posted.  I searched the list archives, feeling *sure* that this question
> *had* to have been addressed already.  I was truly surprised that, in all
> these years, nobody seemed to raise the question.
> 
> I used to be an HP-UX admin, so I *know* the headaches associated with
> administering mailing lists and newsgroups. I *know* how tiresome
> inappropriate, off-topic and repeat questions can be, and how often an
> "RTFM!" reply is the best I could squeak out.  I thought I had done my due
> diligence, chose the right mailing list and shown the proper respect before
> posting.  No, I am not a spammer.  Would a spammer bother to take the time
> to do all I have done?  I think my only violation [ed: in my original post]
> was being too long winded (as you pointed out), but that's just me (and I
> even apologized for that at the end of my original post).
> 
> <- end email quote ->
> 
>> <http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#TITTL>
>> which describes what you should have done with this latest 
>> post.
> 
> Okay, as a new visitor to the Cygwin web site and mailing lists, I never saw
> a reference to this.  This is an appropriate, informative page for newbies.
> Perhaps a more prominent pointer on the web site is called for?

See above; "welcome to the club". ;-)

I just picked up the gauntlet you dropped; sorry if I was a little rough 
with it.

>> To summarize: we didn't need three pages of hysterics and 
>> back-story to come with your question.
> 
> Three pages of back-story was probably inappropriate, I will give you that.

Dead horse, dead horse. ;-)

I think I'll stop replying to these as we are in violent agreement. :-)

> I did apologize for that.  As for hysterics, I didn't see any in my original
> post; those all came later.

"<BIG SIGH>", etc. A little goes a long way.

>> There, see? That was *much* easier and more pleasant to read,
> 
> Agreed, and point taken.  Apologies to all.

Happily accepted (on my end, at least, can't speak for anyone else).

>> was not hysterical, and summarized both your problem (which, 
>> incidentally, has nothing at all to do with Cygwin) and the 
> 
> Nothing at all to do with Cygwin?  It *is* a Cygwin question!

No, your *problem* is that you are trying to post a message to a large 
list of newsgroups. If this has anything to do with Cygwin, perhaps you 
can enlighten me.

However, because you know that Cygwin is a very good POSIX environment 
on Windows, and that POSIX is very script-friendly, you are looking for 
a Cygwin *solution* to your problem. Thus, you are 100% correct that 
your question is a Cygwin question, but refer again to 
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#goal>... I'm not 
saying that your post was out of line, just that you should keep an open 
mind and realize that the best *solution* might not involve Cygwin.

> As for my second post (which indeed *did* contain hysterics!), if that was
> inappropriate for the main Cygwin list, all I can say is: <pouting and
> pointing my finger at Dave> "He started it!" :)

Yes, he did (and I see I do not hold that opinion alone), and this is 
why TITTTL is so often used. :-)

This is probably exasperated by the old hats simultaneously tending to 
not do it under the belief that the new folks won't realize they did 
(which is why I CC'd you my reply), and expecting the new (i.e. 
inexperienced) folks to know to do it (even though that contradicts the 
first assumption). IOW, it's either lose-lose or relies on the new folks 
to do their homework (but specifically, to find the descriptions of the 
cygwin-talk ML and "TITTTL"). And most people don't. My own belief, 
based on the other newbies I've seen drop in, is that you've done better 
than average.

>> IANAUU (I am not a USENET user), but I would think the 
>> purpose of regional groups is to post about items that *are* 
>> specific to a region. 
>> If your item is *not* specific to a region, then IMO you 
>> should restrict yourself to posting in non-regional forums.
> 
> Well, that's one interpretation.  Things like cars and houses and such.  If
> you live in Florida, you don't want to be bothered with ads for used cars
> for sale in California.  Completely understood.
> 
> Another interpretation says, the item I'm selling *is* available to
> Floridians (even though I don't live there), because I ship there.
> Floridians deserve to know that this is available.  (It is a rather rare
> item.)
> 
> There will be many folks who use the first interpretation; others who use
> the second.  If you side with the first, then the best we can do is agree to
> disagree.

WFM.

>> I'll concede that *.forsale sounds like 
>> a bunch of groups whose purpose of existence is to be the 
>> target of directed spam.
> 
> To me, "spam" is like a shotgun.  Indiscriminate blasting that not only
> covers the intended target, but wholly inappropriate targets too.

Hmm, by that definition I would argue that this mailing list constitutes 
"spam". :-) I'm not particularly interested in "Using gutenprint IJS 
drivers with ghostscript.", but that message was sitting in Thunderbird 
along with the rest of the traffic.

I guess my initial reaction is to consider all blatant advertising 
"spam". I will certainly concede that in this instance it would appear 
to be solicited, so I guess by a more typical definition that is "not 
spam". See what you're doing, you're using reason and logic to make me 
question my own beliefs; stop that! ;-)

>> As for your impression of Dave Korn, you might want to 
>> re-read your OP, read 
>> <http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html> and then 
>> ask yourself (especially considering that many people 
>> consider such excessive cross-posting to be spam) if you're 
>> still surprised by Dave's response.
> 
> As I told you in private email, Matthew, I consider your response much more
> civil and helpful to me than the keyboard-lashing I got from Dave.  Yes, I
> may have broken ML etiquette with my original post (though it was not for
> lack of effort, and I still think my only crime was being too long winded),
> but there are more considerate and polite ways of letting me know I did so
> (such as yours).

I'm glad you feel that way... I think. :-) I know I'm being a bit 
knee-jerk as well, and I'm trying, though not very consistently, to not 
be. ;-)

> As for my second post, my only regret was calling Dave an uncivil name.  I
> should never have stooped that low.  Dave, you may read this list, but I'm
> CCing you too (just in case), because I would like to apologize for that.
> 
> Anyway, I just ran out of wind.

I think I just ran out of smileys. :-)

-- 
Matthew
...Ruthlessly beating Windows with a hammer until it looks like POSIX.