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Tue, 15 May 2018 07:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Request new Ruby release References: <5afa206a.1c69fb81.2121e.da3a@mx.google.com> To: cygwin-talk@cygwin.com Reply-To: cygwin-talk@cygwin.com From: cyg Simple Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=cygsimple@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFW7cuMBEADJg9disJJSBGRlDxdAt2hR6I6Ruzm8vw+zpjEGLsYyWiBhoLV1EEmHLyhh bdPEJx0DU2sPVbTcESRiYaTOVK6wJQMFur+WZ5cUkIXfJBQPUPRUcxbjrY8MtWYguhACSP/T ZGjtxl9w92fGYLTBDqVmOb9rjEo9UbmZwDTCYhjkAvlXR/K+q6+jGgrXLIC1CpiWqE1l2yH9 RGclbNc3Yjq9RJgqiHI+VgRa2P16NteTLSrD428YJS5p8rFIYngZooNClCJsrSAZCJ2abQ40 0S+kP/lcoSph5JXIDAL6sB6hUZg9sVpL4iU2Qsm7EKDBgvw72+AGH+ApxEgijYCPe8O1aybd qq2KWOeIg40gAua3ZPq7XIGd4TGIA0kzAK0wnE1LjSWF4h/bkf8CmGn3s7upAkNa75XOKApa V2cVMmi6qdcgjCDkNQbbgvv0V4VmqQYlFXYLfzOZZB3LgydeoMERX+74aVEHKv5PxEbfwLnv 29nsKvB7yLhfYSbaHQPOIqkgMuw+bx8m1Zh9IKJv0/O8Ta/yvyW2sHWMcAAmd4t1gykbZCZa NbvKAhvIP9NWjREae+jjsJJj98mbvsI8pCFbc2coHWNAk4JyBjDcMFrhTNA+8+D5RveRERrc yFu2qU6Bl7Bz2U1VLsmo2HcmRQRO6L0CwwsIlgeZGSmyJxPzzwARAQABzStFYXJuZXN0IEJv eWQgPGVib3lkNTNlbnRlcnByaXNlc0BnbWFpbC5jb20+wsF/BBMBCAApBQJVu3LjAhsjBQkJ ZgGABwsJCAcDAgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQcYOkK+VgItVscRAApR0Iad65JnDa 7RlhEducTNM836qBbqcsQSPoEGJ5sNhHP9VF2jB2Kd4JONyksLyVD/nU+hJwTB4SnUC5dwRo 0a4HQbYSaiLoXZNlRGGP++ACy7E0BT+pvV9gd9tmLtYDvuHzEbEY70nmt8FNrheEznv6CSss jY6uGDNfXV+7Hh+xZJ9z71Gb3mO6byz5EIDz+iFZU6VpIyYVUFnyR5fvkJwNqFoOVqc5TqkR mDWWtb5nEYLMNmDcSbh1lY7YEUfHFqhT++O/gXTv9hZ5jU7kuA9OYkc4HY1ctRI3xuu+YzBY NwzEeKmdC1JK2XXERHxQGvtru+G9mwAdFQ9TAiQinsMqAJfDW/WX5eaEaTrtkizWiTM93eJ+ zXpyBtxWjdQUNpYqEysWnNz0ZA0IB6P4Py1Gdts/T0i8tDE9C9UiqbZSj7VnkP4vwI311RmP ooXuzjpOc4RFTbYdBiobpy+RLyIZSMEqRd51fveXZPCGzs3BDdNX48c2biwLVQ3MNpCKU9D3 5I0Kd6vdST4UTQrQ9Gco0o60M9+0gi/YHHAol7/XTW64Me1lj5ELsUSWnRI4xEQbCbOKRa15 LRxRoVqsVOeZqUlKI9AvrVaSaJz+PkaORcHFWIWnS+jzRc+vpvO9vbg3AoZvKrr2Rkhq/558 RTxZJz8UlUHeC+PVN7ai8GzOwU0EVbty4wEQAOu9QeDKIYUr+dRp/tNWRIt+MdHB9vxAnRIm 8fEC7/LlYu5HhdfBk9ol1EVeuQRWobipWmkPvIBBVKNFAC4yjV09Bp4s+AEIAkHD6JyQkbwd j9urYHf14RGdfJMZaA8B6vQpgywoQ51qLn1DqzEfPzeUVYTBoqDiTrfNA4roSvq3MWWl51CM plVALm57UIDnK5+8Dlgw235iu2BuzY0iq5wCeGGcZzTruudSwQ656uvcExLSVRZFuHy2tT1Z Bug2ADy99Z6qnGObiHAlQQj2JfHzszPOAJZX8k/ou4VB1WToCzIGCCMgSvrCqiMCFPj55R+s ArEz84sczVpmwujWwS2coxAVWOUVj8a+/NzZoqgi2GxjNHVNHJir4K3fMm9aADHRpysVUTdw fLJ9ya1tpCbrijJGhhUJBxuCdbUYtM55gOTAod9M+9fPk+QMt4MqxFf9yJXHKSVojjFnuUln m156Aocthzl2KezLxnde44FSblHDG7LtcSxhI0CmDS/lWZl5FPswDxjexBt8uaAwCgJUdr7x u6Q3ydTst6UXrzEowtKo7utm8L823gKcNjktKhDGHpddseC5RgPIWwp7/QDb4uiPw2Y6UI3n BH6x7dYcV0bQfsHtJ1ytdWhI5GgmPZsWoLBHtZg/065RHJpe1Dl5Orv1gtRTyMbk0iIoutYJ ABEBAAHCwWUEGAEIAA8FAlW7cuMCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQcYOkK+VgItXjzw/+IStc4Aw/7OVU aFRBzURiIAJw8i83z3Uf87iwOurygkJ881UMEpvRUJDbEI1HQg3kyT95jw9/Oz3vMXXp+6EH cGgkLI1yJwih1GEF2MXKx5qgETWgM1DDpsW6Xhyty/hX4UW/dRlgDBh8iow7SziOc7mLwXWN 50ejMpvN7Ve2ZhqYucO5FLa6hnTssUv9pyucwuzDjmkcHn4GGeLV7xjanpMp9fMKLcOHnWJd 4IhL2AQUIVL6D1W87x9MqvbhuN9vYTro+adu4/5pogFu/oJVd0MO8GRU2TGdDac4pboAh8dW n7/PlAjvSaA9VWqR/kOQKGyOkFZXFgFtuPWUbedGasF6T+vJocWLz/R18FLB6p7EInQLGMWg wGsTPx//LTR5MItkY82S3yWiLFIqep9tz2AfSFA8OmMt89DcAtNaueK5RmhlaqLGExrd5UDh 9DEdG0tpWfTT50qekW9xvQM0BX//jKwZmW0BBpesbuvPT/2o88k6IVZ36KocuZ2bOIPILi32 wg+5v1su/z8BRNE2vrXyEBUtHkSNxAfJO9jDWlqec3RAmyvHFNORmrT2jwBYn6tWRk1frBVh rQ3yLvQckFdqNQzJ9xxtLpa+g6QvjEDsWx3edL7PHaIqtxe5F9nMnEKEI4f/92ssTst9Ot3Z 57mvQ2yi7GXAyBGBmMvhVno= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 14:02:00 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5afa206a.1c69fb81.2121e.da3a@mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-IsSubscribed: yes X-SW-Source: 2018-q2/txt/msg00004.txt.bz2 I'm moving this discussion to Cygwin-Talk On 5/14/2018 7:48 PM, Steven Penny wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2018 10:31:18, cyg Simple wrote: >>> because they have merit? i said that already. >>> >> >> Since you stated in the form of a question, I can say for me, they do >> not and based on the conversation of others, not for anyone but you. > > let me rephrase: they have merit, full stop. Example 1, quoting myself: > Yes, as I said, it has merit but only to you. >> yaakov said he would look into it after 2.5.1 came out > > fact. here is the proof: > > http://github.com/cygwinports/ruby/issues/1 > And you think Yaakov doesn't follow the release schedules of the applications he builds for release for Cygwin so you must insult him by poking him with a hot iron of Steven. Crack the whip and say get busy slave I'm your master. I know you don't mean to be that but that is the way it is perceived. > Example 2, quoting myself again: > >> and its out: > > fact. here is the proof: > > http://github.com/ruby/ruby/releases/tag/v2_5_1 > So what?! You think Yaakov hasn't seen this? If you need it faster than the maintainer has time to do it for you then you have the opportunity to do it yourself. You are being read as brash even though you might not mean to be. > Example 3, quoting myself again: > >> and yaakov handles a massive amount of packages > > fact. here is the proof: > > http://cygwin.com/cygwin-pkg-maint > And is also the proof that you manage none. > Example 4, quoting myself again: > >> cygwin *does* keep up to date with *some* important packages > > fact. example is the Git package, which as of this writing is totally up to > date: > > - http://cygwin.mirrors.hoobly.com/x86_64/release/git > - http://github.com/git/git/releases > Git is a self contain package that is easier to test. Ruby is a package that requires extensive testing and other packages require. It is those dependencies that make it more difficult to release. > Example 5, quoting myself again: > >> but not other important packages > > fact. Current Cygwin Ruby is 2.3, which was released Dec 2015: > > - http://cygwin.mirrors.hoobly.com/x86_64/release/ruby > - http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_%28programming_language%29#Ruby_2.3 > >> A base package such as GCC requires time to release to an OS and Cygwin >> is a emulation of an OS. > > thats what test package is for > Package tests do not give real world results. Real world tests require an infusion of many packages and takes time. >> Releasing just because its fresh off the press isn't going to happen. > > like me, i dont see you on this list: > > http://cygwin.com/cygwin-pkg-maint > I'm not and I'm not making any demands from the maintainers in it either. > so i'd say you arent in a position to say that. test packages allow this to > happen if the maintainer chooses. > See the comment above. >> You have the opportunity to build it for yourself if you need it >> sooner but >> then you are on your own. > > I have mentioned twice already that i have done this: > > - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00099.html > - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00082.html > Great, then just use them and wait. >>>> Jon does not maintain all of the cross-compilers, >>> >>> yes he does? >>> >> >> In the form of a question again, he definitely does a great job. > > what criteria are you basing this comment on? i am not arguing with you > on this > point per se. i have given concrete arguments here where release > velocity could > be improved: > Your expectation of "release velocity could be improved" is where your crassness and brashness shines. You have an expectation that isn't attainable in the Open Source world unless a business is backing the project with funds and permanent employees. That isn't the case for either Cygwin or MinGW. > - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00099.html > - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00086.html > - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00082.html > - http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00076.html > >> Why are you not "blessed" with your work?  If you provide a service to >> Cygwin then why aren't you in the cygwin-pkg-maint list?  It's because >> you haven't requested to maintain a package. > > perhaps you should read the entire thread - i see you missed my other > posts, > but it seems you missed Smoogen as well: > > http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-05/msg00087.html > To which you didn't respond and to which I agree with. >> And then you offend the maintainers who provide their time to provide >> you a service of distribution. > > thats your opinion, and its not germane to this topic. the original > topic is > requesting a ruby release, as it is out of date. > It's very much on topic as you are again showing your crassness and brashness. >> If you want to maintain or co-maintain a package then ask to see if the >> maintainer needs help. > > i dont want to do that, but i will volunteer if a spot opens. > I'm not understanding, which is it, you "don't want to do that" or you "will volunteer if a spot opens"? A spot is always open so feel free to volunteer but I think that you "don't want to do that". >> You haven't done that, you DEMAND that a release be made. You might >> not see it >> as a DEMAND but it is one. > > sry, nop. > >> And you a free to do so.  MinGW isn't GCC > > yes it is. when you compile GCC, as i have done: > > http://github.com/svnpenn/glade/blob/master/mingw-w64-x86-64/gcc > > you choose a target. normally for this community that is > "x86_64-pc-cygwin", but > in my case it is "x86_64-w64-mingw32". but you dont use some magical > "MinGW" > repo, its the same GCC. granted, you do need to also install the target > "binutils", "headers" and "runtime", but the same source is used to > build GCC > itself. > Addressed separately. >> Maybe to you it doesn't seem like a crazy DEMAND but perhaps there are >> reasons you're unaware of.  Ask to help rather than DEMANDing. > > again not a demand. > >> While your intention isn't one of insults those who maintain the >> packages read them as such because you DEMAND more of their time with no >> effort toward progressing Cygwin from yourself.  That is the insult. > > i am not demanding anything. i am stating what i think are reasonable > expectations for any software community. if they want to ignore them, thats > their business. ive already moved on, i build my own GCC, which i will > use until > the official one drops. however note this: GCC 7 was released over a > year ago: > > http://gnu.mirrors.hoobly.com/gcc/gcc-7.1.0 > > if a test package was dropped at that time, we could have tested for 6 > months, > then released a final build, and still been 6 months ahead of the current > schedule. The fact that a test build wasn't released doesn't mean that you can't test it. You've proven that you can do a test by building the package yourself and use it. That's great but your expectation on a community of people working for free to hurry up and get out a release I can officially use isn't taken well. They just become irate and tell you to go to hell thinking who the hell does he think he is making such demands when he doesn't even contribute. Just because you have your own builds and releases doesn't mean that you've become a respected part of that community as there is no proof in the community of having given anything to them. Steven, I think you're hard working and have good work ethic. I just think you're not working well with those who give their time freely in that they don't see you doing the same. Show yourself to be giving of your time instead of making demands for a release of some product will go better. -- cyg Simple