Re: copying and pasting in the terminal window?

Re: copying and pasting in the terminal window?

[mwoehlke]

TITTTL'd, as this is becoming a "my terminal emulator is bigger than 
your terminal emulator" contest.

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> mwoehlke wrote:
>> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
>>> mwoehlke wrote:
>>>> Cygwin also has an rxvt terminal emulator that may be more to your 
>>>> liking, but I haven't used it and so can't tell you what it's like.
>>> It's awesome, if you're still using the DOS box change over 
>>> immediately. Believe me now and thank me later.
>> Awesome?
> 
> Awesome.

Maybe for you...

>> [it] is a PITA to configure, 
> 
> Mm, no, in the Unixoid scheme of things it's probably one of the easier
> programs to configure.  The main trick is (or at least used to be) getting
> your delete, home, end, etc keys working right, and I can send you my
> magical .initrc to take care of that post-haste.

What can I say, I like menus. 'Settings->Configure Konsole'. See how 
easy that was? Console is just as easy. rxvt needs command line 
switches, or something. I shouldn't have to read a manpage for this 
stuff, as a *good* terminal emulator (like {C|K}onsole) will demonstrate.

>> has an ugly font,
> 
> ???  You can pick whatever font you want, even the cmd one if you want.

Maybe if I go through that PITA configure process... but who has time 
for manpages for something that should be 'View->Font'? I didn't check 
if Console has documentation, but I've never needed it, just like with 
Konsole. That, and on my other computer (that has Konsole), Cygwin X has 
no fonts that *aren't* ugly.

>> And I 
>> see exactly zero ways in which it is an improvement over Console.
> 
> Copy/paste, scrollback buffer, and "Unix-like, X or no X" are three that
> immediately come to mind.

Hello? Even the CUI subsystem has scroll-back... And Console has the 
added advantage of NON-Cygwin sessions, which is very useful to me. :-)

Have you tried the copy/paste in Console? It works just like it does in 
Konsole or (AFAICT) rxvt.

>> Console is awesome, if you're still using rxvt change over 
>> immediately. 
> 
> Nope, if you look back you'll turn into a pillar of salt!

Oh, my, I'm sure you're right. Better not touch rxvt again. :-)

>> Believe me now and thank me later. :-)
> 
> I shall do neither! ;-)
> 
>> If you *must* have an X-based terminal emulator for some 
>> reason (or even just something that isn't using the CUI 
>> subsystem under the covers), I would strongly recommend 
>> Konsole as VASTLY superior to xterm/rxvt. You can get an old 
>> version... um, somewhere, or wait and see if KDE4 makes good 
>> on native Windows support (which I guess would no longer be 
>> X-based, but would also not need an X server).
> 
> Well you can rest assured I shall give it a try should they come out with a
> native port.

And it will have all the features of Console AND rxvt in one, and you'll 
love it. :-)

> Now in the meantime, get rxvt installed before it's too
> late!!!  To get you started, here's the command line of the shortcut I've
> used for countless years of cmd-free Cygwinning:
> 
> C:\unix\bin\rxvt.exe -tn rxvt-cygwin-native -sr -sl 1000 -fn "Lucida
> Console-bold-14" -e bash --login -i

Nice DOS path there... "bash: C:unixbinrxvt.exe: command not found" ;-)

See what I mean about configuration? With Console, it took me all of ten 
seconds to figure out how to change the font, and I didn't have to read 
anything but menus.

Oh, and...
"rxvt: can't open display 127.0.0.1:0"

And no tabs, and no menu, and no status bar, and I can't read anything 
against the white background and now I'm going to have to read the 
manpage, and...

Ok. So, after reading the manpage for half an hour, I wrote this script 
that gets me *closer* to what Console does (no manpage required)...

----
#!/bin/bash
unset DISPLAY
font="Terminal--9"

colors() {
cat << EOF
--color0 #000000
--color1 #C00000
--color2 #00C000
--color3 #C08000
--color4 #0000C0
--color5 #C000C0
--color6 #00C0C0
--color7 #C0C0C0
--color8 #606060
--color9 #FF6060
--color10 #60FF60
--color11 #FFFF60
--color12 #6060FF
--color13 #FF60FF
--color14 #60FFFF
--color15 #FFFFFF
EOF
}

rxvt -tn rxvt-cygwin-native -sr -sl 1000 -fn "$font" -fb "$font" -fg 7 
-bg 0 -cr '#C0C0C0' -pr 7 `colors` -e bash --login -i
----

...and I still don't know how to specify width and height. rxvt is 
simply much more lacking in features; end of story.

-- 
Matthew
'$ time make world' -> real 5d:14h:37m:5.291s  user 0m:0.000s  sys 
4d:2h:14m:43.712s

RE: copying and pasting in the terminal window?

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: mwoehlke
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 11:16 AM
> Subject: Re: copying and pasting in the terminal window?
> 
> TITTTL'd, as this is becoming a "my terminal emulator is 
> bigger than your terminal emulator" contest.
> 

Oh, it's no contest.

;-)

> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> > mwoehlke wrote:
> >> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> >>> mwoehlke wrote:
> >>>> Cygwin also has an rxvt terminal emulator that may be 
> more to your 
> >>>> liking, but I haven't used it and so can't tell you what 
> it's like.
> >>> It's awesome, if you're still using the DOS box change over 
> >>> immediately. Believe me now and thank me later.
> >> Awesome?
> > 
> > Awesome.
> 
> Maybe for you...
> 

Or maybe... for all mankind?

> >> [it] is a PITA to configure,
> > 
> > Mm, no, in the Unixoid scheme of things it's probably one of the 
> > easier programs to configure.  The main trick is (or at 
> least used to 
> > be) getting your delete, home, end, etc keys working right, 
> and I can 
> > send you my magical .initrc to take care of that post-haste.
> 
> What can I say, I like menus.

Well, sure, who *doesn't* like menus?

> 'Settings->Configure Konsole'. 
> See how easy that was?

Since I'm still waiting for the native Windows version, I'm afraid I must
report that no, I didn't see it.

> Console is just as easy.

I'm starting to get confused now: by "Console" you mean the regular cmd.exe
window, right?  Not the other, non-MS "Console" that Marko Bozikovic is
talking about on the cygwin@ list?  I'll assume the former for the remainder
of this post.

So ok, let's take a commonly used setting like, oh, window width:

Rxvt:  'Drag side or corner to the right, window gets bigger.'
Cmd.exe: 'Drag side or corner to the right... well, you can't, so nothing
happens.'

> rxvt needs 
> command line switches, or something. I shouldn't have to read 
> a manpage for this stuff, as a *good* terminal emulator (like 
> {C|K}onsole) will demonstrate.
> 

?!??!???????!?!??!?!?!!!

1.  You don't need to read a man page, I did all the work for you already in
the last post.
B.  If you have an aversion to command line options, may I humbly suggest
that you stay as far away from anything even remotely Unix as possible? ;-)

> >> has an ugly font,
> > 
> > ???  You can pick whatever font you want, even the cmd one 
> if you want.
> 
> Maybe if I go through that PITA configure process...

...yeah, or copy and paste the command line I gave you.

> but who 
> has time for manpages for something that should be 
> 'View->Font'?

Or 'make window wider'?  I know I don't! ;-)

> I didn't check if Console has documentation, 
> but I've never needed it,

...unless you ever needed to copy and/or paste.  You can't tell me that you
figured out
"try-to-select/oops-no-I-have-to-select-Edit-Mark-first/ok-did-that/mark/tur
n-around-three-times/oops-I-just-right-clicked-and-lost-my-selection-did-tha
t-also-copy-to-clipboard?/umm-I-don't-remember-let's-see/etc-etc-etc"
without any help.

> just like with Konsole. That, and 
> on my other computer (that has Konsole), Cygwin X has no 
> fonts that *aren't* ugly.
> 

??? Then use the non-X rxvt!  It's freedom baby, yeah!

> >> And I
> >> see exactly zero ways in which it is an improvement over Console.
> > 
> > Copy/paste, scrollback buffer, and "Unix-like, X or no X" are three 
> > that immediately come to mind.
> 
> Hello?

That's a big 10-4 good buddy, you're coming in wall to wall, come back.

> Even the CUI subsystem has scroll-back... And Console 
> has the added advantage of NON-Cygwin sessions, which is very 
> useful to me. :-)
> 
> Have you tried the copy/paste in Console? It works just like 
> it does in Konsole or (AFAICT) rxvt.
> 

No, it doesn't, unless we're talking about Marko Bozikovic's Console here,
then I don't know.  And if you're saying that Konsole's copy/paste is the
same as cmd.exe's, well, good night nurse!

> >> Console is awesome, if you're still using rxvt change over 
> >> immediately.
> > 
> > Nope, if you look back you'll turn into a pillar of salt!
> 
> Oh, my, I'm sure you're right. Better not touch rxvt again. :-)
> 
> >> Believe me now and thank me later. :-)
> > 
> > I shall do neither! ;-)
> > 
> >> If you *must* have an X-based terminal emulator for some 
> reason (or 
> >> even just something that isn't using the CUI subsystem under the 
> >> covers), I would strongly recommend Konsole as VASTLY superior to 
> >> xterm/rxvt. You can get an old version... um, somewhere, 
> or wait and 
> >> see if KDE4 makes good on native Windows support (which I 
> guess would 
> >> no longer be X-based, but would also not need an X server).
> > 
> > Well you can rest assured I shall give it a try should they 
> come out 
> > with a native port.
> 
> And it will have all the features of Console AND rxvt in one, 
> and you'll love it. :-)
> 

Coulda shoulda woulda.  Wake me when it ships. ;-)

> > Now in the meantime, get rxvt installed before it's too late!!!  To 
> > get you started, here's the command line of the shortcut 
> I've used for 
> > countless years of cmd-free Cygwinning:
> > 
> > C:\unix\bin\rxvt.exe -tn rxvt-cygwin-native -sr -sl 1000 
> -fn "Lucida 
> > Console-bold-14" -e bash --login -i
> 
> Nice DOS path there... "bash: C:unixbinrxvt.exe: command not 
> found" ;-)
> 

Nonono, don't paste it into bash!  Make a shortcut in your... whatever that
bar is next to the "Start" button... and paste that command line in the
"Shortcut->Target" box.  Now admittedly that's a tab, not a menu, but if
you're like me, you like tabs even more than menus!

> See what I mean about configuration?

Honestly?  No.

> With Console, it took me 
> all of ten seconds to figure out how to change the font, and 
> I didn't have to read anything but menus.
> 

And you do this font-changing often do you?

> Oh, and...
> "rxvt: can't open display 127.0.0.1:0"
> 

I think you have either installed the wrong one or have DISPLAY set wrong.

> And no tabs, and no menu, and no status bar,

No need!

> and I can't read 
> anything against the white background

Oh pah-leez.  And regardless, if you don't like it you can change it, as
you've found out below.

> and now I'm going to 
> have to read the manpage, and...
> 
> Ok. So, after reading the manpage for half an hour, I wrote 
> this script that gets me *closer* to what Console does (no 
> manpage required)...
> 
> ----
> #!/bin/bash
> unset DISPLAY
> font="Terminal--9"
> 
> colors() {
> cat << EOF
> --color0 #000000
> --color1 #C00000
> --color2 #00C000
> --color3 #C08000
> --color4 #0000C0
> --color5 #C000C0
> --color6 #00C0C0
> --color7 #C0C0C0
> --color8 #606060
> --color9 #FF6060
> --color10 #60FF60
> --color11 #FFFF60
> --color12 #6060FF
> --color13 #FF60FF
> --color14 #60FFFF
> --color15 #FFFFFF
> EOF
> }
> 
> rxvt -tn rxvt-cygwin-native -sr -sl 1000 -fn "$font" -fb 
> "$font" -fg 7 -bg 0 -cr '#C0C0C0' -pr 7 `colors` -e bash --login -i
> ----
> 
> ...and I still don't know how to specify width and height. 

...ahhh, me thinks the mwoehlke doth protest too much!  Come over to the
side of awesomeness, my young apprentice!

> rxvt is simply much more lacking in features; end of story.
> 

Is it?  Are you sure you haven't figured out how to specify width and/or
height since you posted this?  Let the power of rxvt flow through you!

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 

Re: copying and pasting in the terminal window?

[mwoehlke]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
>> From: mwoehlke
>>>> [rxvt] is a PITA to configure,
>>> Mm, no, in the Unixoid scheme of things it's probably one of the 
>>> easier programs to configure.  The main trick is (or at 
>> least used to 
>>> be) getting your delete, home, end, etc keys working right, 
>> and I can 
>>> send you my magical .initrc to take care of that post-haste.
>> What can I say, I like menus.
> 
> Well, sure, who *doesn't* like menus?
> 
>> 'Settings->Configure Konsole'. 
>> See how easy that was?
> 
> Since I'm still waiting for the native Windows version, I'm afraid I must
> report that no, I didn't see it.

>> Console is just as easy.
> 
> I'm starting to get confused now: by "Console" you mean the regular cmd.exe
> window, right?  Not the other, non-MS "Console" that Marko Bozikovic is
> talking about on the cygwin@ list?  I'll assume the former for the remainder
> of this post.

Oh, now I understand. Of course the CUI as-is is cruddy. I'm talking 
about Marko's 'console.exe'. No wonder you are unenlightened. :-)

> So ok, let's take a commonly used setting like, oh, window width:
> 
> Rxvt:  'Drag side or corner to the right, window gets bigger.'
> Cmd.exe: 'Drag side or corner to the right... well, you can't, so nothing
> happens.'

Console.exe: drag side or corner to the right... Windows gets bigger, 
*AND* when you let go, you can see *HOW* big it is. Rxvt is missing 
this. (Konsole shows you in a pop-up /while/ dragging, which is better, 
but only for a second after, which is slightly worse.)

Rxvt: Hope 'echo $COLUMNS', etc works
CUI: Find out in properties
Konsole: resize the window, look at the pop-up
Console: Hmm, is that a status bar with the information?

>> rxvt needs 
>> command line switches, or something. I shouldn't have to read 
>> a manpage for this stuff, as a *good* terminal emulator (like 
>> {C|K}onsole) will demonstrate.
> 
> ?!??!???????!?!??!?!?!!!

Settings->Configure Konsole. A full GUI for changing everything. 
Similarly, Edit->Settings (in Console).

> 1.  You don't need to read a man page, I did all the work for you already in
> the last post.

No you didn't. I had to read the manpage to change the colors. At any 
rate, it is still less discoverable than a proper configuration 
interface; I had to read the manpage *or* someone had to tell me how to 
do it. With Console, I easily found Edit->Settings, from where it was 
obvious how to make the changes I wanted.

> B.  If you have an aversion to command line options, may I humbly suggest
> that you stay as far away from anything even remotely Unix as possible? ;-)

Of course you may! ;-)

>> With Console, it took me 
>> all of ten seconds to figure out how to change the font, and 
>> I didn't have to read anything but menus.
> 
> And you do this font-changing often do you?

No, but it still took me a fraction of the time to make Console look 
like I wanted it to, than to get rxvt halfway there.

>> And no tabs, and no menu, and no status bar,
> 
> No need!

I like tabs. I like tabs a LOT better than ten icons on my task bar. I 
suppose you don't use them in Firefox either? (If you even use Firefox...)

>> [snip]
> 
> ...ahhh, me thinks the mwoehlke doth protest too much!  Come over to the
> side of awesomeness, my young apprentice!

Nope. Just like Console better.

-- 
Matthew
We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. --Badtech

Re: copying and pasting in the terminal window?

[Cary Jamison]

mwoehlke wrote:
>
> Oh, now I understand. Of course the CUI as-is is cruddy. I'm talking
> about Marko's 'console.exe'. No wonder you are unenlightened. :-)

I've just started playing with this, also...I like it!  I like tabs, too. 
And I like that my regular windows programs work as well, which is something 
that rxvt doesn't give me.


Cary

Re: copying and pasting in the terminal window?

[Igor Peshansky]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Cary Jamison wrote:

> mwoehlke wrote:
> >
> > Oh, now I understand. Of course the CUI as-is is cruddy. I'm talking
> > about Marko's 'console.exe'. No wonder you are unenlightened. :-)
>
> I've just started playing with this, also...I like it!  I like tabs,
> too. And I like that my regular windows programs work as well, which is
> something that rxvt doesn't give me.

Ah, but does it understand all the ANSI sequences?  And do Ctrl-Space and
Ctrl-C work properly in it?
	Igor
-- 
				http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
      |\      _,,,---,,_	    pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu | igor@watson.ibm.com
ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_		Igor Peshansky, Ph.D. (name changed!)
     |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'		old name: Igor Pechtchanski
    '---''(_/--'  `-'\_) fL	a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-.  Meow!

"Las! je suis sot... -Mais non, tu ne l'es pas, puisque tu t'en rends compte."
"But no -- you are no fool; you call yourself a fool, there's proof enough in
that!" -- Rostand, "Cyrano de Bergerac"

Re: copying and pasting in the terminal window?

[mwoehlke]

Igor Peshansky wondered if Console is right for him?:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Cary Jamison also discovered that Console rocks!:
>> mwoehlke extolled the greatness of Console, by Marko (*not* the CUI):
>> I've just started playing with this, also...I like it!  I like tabs,
>> too. And I like that my regular windows programs work as well, which is
>> something that rxvt doesn't give me.
> 
> Ah, but does it understand all the ANSI sequences?  And do Ctrl-Space and
> Ctrl-C work properly in it?

Which ANSI sequences? In general, it does everything the CUI subsystem 
does (because it is using a CUI under the hood). Ctrl-C WFM if you mean 
sending SIGINT (and it seems to understand 'stty intr <blah>', after 
which <blah> sends SIGINT and ctrl-C dings at me). Ctrl-space however 
seems to be the same as regular space.

Since I'm not an emacs person (I think that's what we're talking 
about?), I'm not missing anything here...

-- 
Matthew
We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. --Badtech

Re: copying and pasting in the terminal window?

[Cary Jamison]

mwoehlke wrote:
> Igor Peshansky wondered if Console is right for him?:
>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Cary Jamison also discovered that Console
>> rocks!:
>>> mwoehlke extolled the greatness of Console, by Marko (*not* the
>>> CUI): I've just started playing with this, also...I like it!  I
>>> like tabs, too. And I like that my regular windows programs work as
>>> well, which is something that rxvt doesn't give me.
>>
>> Ah, but does it understand all the ANSI sequences?  And do
>> Ctrl-Space and Ctrl-C work properly in it?
>
> Which ANSI sequences? In general, it does everything the CUI subsystem
> does (because it is using a CUI under the hood). Ctrl-C WFM if you
> mean sending SIGINT (and it seems to understand 'stty intr <blah>',
> after which <blah> sends SIGINT and ctrl-C dings at me). Ctrl-space
> however seems to be the same as regular space.
>
> Since I'm not an emacs person (I think that's what we're talking
> about?), I'm not missing anything here...

I usually use xemacs in a separate window, so these things don't bother me, 
either.  But, it does have issues with xemacs -nw.  One annoying thing is 
that even if you have the menu bar hidden, m-f, m-e, m-h, etc., still pop up 
the menus instead of getting sent to the app.  I guess I could see where 
that could be useful, but when you're wrapping a console window you can't 
assume you can have any keys for yourself, or you need a way to turn on and 
off if they get passed through.


Cary