Resizing problem

Resizing problem

[Olwe Melwasul]

I installed cygwin/xcygwin 1.7.5 with KDE. I tried clicking on XWin
Server from the Start menue, but nothing happened. I tried startx from
the
cygwin basic terminal. Nothing. After some Google archaeology, I found
someone that had done this:

cd \cygwin\bin
ash
PATH=. rebaseall -v

at the DOS command. Good. It worked. Running startx at the cygwin
command did start a twm session. But how the KDE would run, I couldn't
figure out from any amount of documentation or Googling. After some
more Googling, I saw a reference to an Openbox. Guessing along, I got
startx /usr/bin/openbox to give me Openbox. My problem is that I
cannot minimize anything because it goes down below and out of sight.
The XWin container window is sized on start up to my right computer
screen, but when I drag it over to my larger left screen, it can't be
resized. I suspect Openbox has a default size larger (lower?) and down
in the hidden part is no doubt either a task bar with the minimized
apps or the minimized apps themselves, right? Alt-Tab only cycles the
Win7 apps, not the XWin session apps, BTW.

Actually, I don't need the startx version, I could very well use the
startxwin multi-windows version IF I could get Emacs in shell mode to
do cygwin bash. Starting the X server and then Emacs multi-windows
style gets a shell mode that apparently doesn't see cygwin. I'm
guessing it's using the DOS command.

How can I a) get at the minimized apps? or b) how can I get a
stand-alone X server-run Emacs to see cygwin bash?

Olwe Bottorff
Grand Marais, MN

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Re: Resizing problem

[Ken Brown]

On 7/15/2010 1:02 PM, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
> [...]
> Actually, I don't need the startx version, I could very well use the
> startxwin multi-windows version IF I could get Emacs in shell mode to
> do cygwin bash. Starting the X server and then Emacs multi-windows
> style gets a shell mode that apparently doesn't see cygwin. I'm
> guessing it's using the DOS command.

I can't comment on the first part of your post, but I'm Cygwin's emacs 
maintainer and can try to help you get emacs running.  If you want to 
run emacs under X, install the emacs-X11 package and then type 'emacs&' 
in an xterm window.  If something doesn't work the way you expect, 
please give a precise recipe for reproducing the problem.  I don't know 
what you mean by "a shell mode that apparently doesn't see cygwin".

Ken

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Re: Resizing problem

[Olwe Melwasul]

Yes, I am using the emacs-X11 and yes, I started it (after starting
the X server to get multiwindowed mode) with ">emacs &" at the cygwin
command. Emacs-X11 comes up fine, looking good. Then I do "M-x shell"
to get a shell environment inside of Emacs. But what comes up is not
bash. I'm not sure what it is, but it sees no cygwin apps: It doesn't
know what "ls" or "which diff" or any other GNU/cygwin stuff is. I
assume it is the DOS shell. Oddly, if I start emacs-X11 inside the
windowed mode (startx) and do emacs shell mode, it does see bash and
the rest of the GNU/cygwin apps.

O
GM, MN

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Ken Brown <kbrown@cornell.edu> wrote:
> On 7/15/2010 1:02 PM, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>> Actually, I don't need the startx version, I could very well use the
>> startxwin multi-windows version IF I could get Emacs in shell mode to
>> do cygwin bash. Starting the X server and then Emacs multi-windows
>> style gets a shell mode that apparently doesn't see cygwin. I'm
>> guessing it's using the DOS command.
>
> I can't comment on the first part of your post, but I'm Cygwin's emacs
> maintainer and can try to help you get emacs running.  If you want to run
> emacs under X, install the emacs-X11 package and then type 'emacs&' in an
> xterm window.  If something doesn't work the way you expect, please give a
> precise recipe for reproducing the problem.  I don't know what you mean by
> "a shell mode that apparently doesn't see cygwin".
>
> Ken
>
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Re: Resizing problem

[Ken Brown]

On 7/15/2010 3:51 PM, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
> Yes, I am using the emacs-X11 and yes, I started it (after starting
> the X server to get multiwindowed mode) with ">emacs&" at the cygwin
> command. Emacs-X11 comes up fine, looking good. Then I do "M-x shell"
> to get a shell environment inside of Emacs. But what comes up is not
> bash. I'm not sure what it is, but it sees no cygwin apps: It doesn't
> know what "ls" or "which diff" or any other GNU/cygwin stuff is. I
> assume it is the DOS shell. Oddly, if I start emacs-X11 inside the
> windowed mode (startx) and do emacs shell mode, it does see bash and
> the rest of the GNU/cygwin apps.

[Please don't top-post.]

I think the problem is that your PATH isn't set correctly inside emacs. 
  How are you starting the X server?  If you use the start menu shortcut 
(with target C:\cygwin\bin\run.exe /usr/bin/bash.exe -l -c 
/usr/bin/startxwin.exe) you shouldn't have that problem.  Notice that it 
uses 'bash -l' precisely so that the environment, including PATH, is set 
up in the normal way.

Ken

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Re: Resizing problem

[Olwe Melwasul]

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Ken Brown <kbrown@cornell.edu> wrote:
> On 7/15/2010 3:51 PM, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>>
>> Yes, I am using the emacs-X11 and yes, I started it (after starting
>> the X server to get multiwindowed mode) with ">emacs&" at the cygwin
>> command. Emacs-X11 comes up fine, looking good. Then I do "M-x shell"
>> to get a shell environment inside of Emacs. But what comes up is not
>> bash. I'm not sure what it is, but it sees no cygwin apps: It doesn't
>> know what "ls" or "which diff" or any other GNU/cygwin stuff is. I
>> assume it is the DOS shell. Oddly, if I start emacs-X11 inside the
>> windowed mode (startx) and do emacs shell mode, it does see bash and
>> the rest of the GNU/cygwin apps.
>
> [Please don't top-post.]
>
> I think the problem is that your PATH isn't set correctly inside emacs.  How
> are you starting the X server?  If you use the start menu shortcut (with
> target C:\cygwin\bin\run.exe /usr/bin/bash.exe -l -c /usr/bin/startxwin.exe)
> you shouldn't have that problem.  Notice that it uses 'bash -l' precisely so
> that the environment, including PATH, is set up in the normal way.
>
> Ken

I started the X-server with the menu shortcut (which has the execute
string you listed) and ... after ... a full minute it delivers a
stand-alone xterm. I then click on the Emacs-X11, and after a long
wait, it comes up. I do an M-x shell -- and get a "sh-3.2$" prompt. I
try some commands, and it only seems to know a few. "cd" does get me
to "/home/Olwe" which tells me it must have something to do with
cygwin, but it knows no other GNU/cygwin other than perhaps "pwd".

Next, I kill it and start Emacs-X11 in the xterm "emacs &". It comes
up fine. I do M-x shell -- and get the identical prompt I got in
xterm, namely,

Olwe@Olwe-PC
$

I type commands and they work -- it sees the GNU/cygwin apps fine --
but it leaves odd characters after it returns, e.g.

$ which diff
/usr/bin/diff
^[]0;~^G

The last string is not random, it has some method to its madness. For example

$ ls
dbus-4xiZFwCMPa  dbus-U6vB5c6MSd  dbus-hdtwMyVbXA  dbus-yXQ8LOSIN3
^[]0;/tmp\a

Actually, I copied the above output and lost the ^[ and the ^G, but
they show up on the emacs shell output.

Next, I kill emacs-X11 stand-alone and start emacs -nw in the xterm.
Same funky characters. I try other consoles -- same funky characters.
Again, the windowed mode doesn't have these problems, just the issues
with minimized apps disappearing beyond the bottom of Openbox.

If I could just get rid of the funky xterm characters, I'd call it a day....

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Re: Resizing problem

[Ken Brown]

On 7/15/2010 9:26 PM, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Ken Brown<kbrown@cornell.edu>  wrote:
>> On 7/15/2010 3:51 PM, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, I am using the emacs-X11 and yes, I started it (after starting
>>> the X server to get multiwindowed mode) with ">emacs&" at the cygwin
>>> command. Emacs-X11 comes up fine, looking good. Then I do "M-x shell"
>>> to get a shell environment inside of Emacs. But what comes up is not
>>> bash. I'm not sure what it is, but it sees no cygwin apps: It doesn't
>>> know what "ls" or "which diff" or any other GNU/cygwin stuff is. I
>>> assume it is the DOS shell. Oddly, if I start emacs-X11 inside the
>>> windowed mode (startx) and do emacs shell mode, it does see bash and
>>> the rest of the GNU/cygwin apps.
>>
>> [Please don't top-post.]
>>
>> I think the problem is that your PATH isn't set correctly inside emacs.  How
>> are you starting the X server?  If you use the start menu shortcut (with
>> target C:\cygwin\bin\run.exe /usr/bin/bash.exe -l -c /usr/bin/startxwin.exe)
>> you shouldn't have that problem.  Notice that it uses 'bash -l' precisely so
>> that the environment, including PATH, is set up in the normal way.
>>
>> Ken
>
> I started the X-server with the menu shortcut (which has the execute
> string you listed) and ... after ... a full minute it delivers a
> stand-alone xterm. I then click on the Emacs-X11, and after a long

It sounds like you're using the Emacs-X11 start menu shortcut that's 
created by the X-start-menu-icons package.  Don't use it.  It doesn't 
set up the environment properly before starting emacs.  To get a useful 
shortcut, you can use the script /usr/bin/make-emacs-shortcut that comes 
with the emacs package.

> wait, it comes up. I do an M-x shell -- and get a "sh-3.2$" prompt. I
> try some commands, and it only seems to know a few. "cd" does get me
> to "/home/Olwe" which tells me it must have something to do with
> cygwin, but it knows no other GNU/cygwin other than perhaps "pwd".
>
> Next, I kill it and start Emacs-X11 in the xterm "emacs&". It comes
> up fine. I do M-x shell -- and get the identical prompt I got in
> xterm, namely,
>
> Olwe@Olwe-PC
> $
>
> I type commands and they work -- it sees the GNU/cygwin apps fine --
> but it leaves odd characters after it returns, e.g.
>
> $ which diff
> /usr/bin/diff
> ^[]0;~^G

This is ugly but harmless.  It's an escape sequence that's part of the 
shell prompt, which is controlled by the PS1 environment variable.  (In 
a normal shell, as opposed to one in emacs, you don't see it directly; I 
think it affects the color of the current directory, displayed as part 
of the prompt.)

> The last string is not random, it has some method to its madness. For example
>
> $ ls
> dbus-4xiZFwCMPa  dbus-U6vB5c6MSd  dbus-hdtwMyVbXA  dbus-yXQ8LOSIN3
> ^[]0;/tmp\a
>
> Actually, I copied the above output and lost the ^[ and the ^G, but
> they show up on the emacs shell output.
>
> Next, I kill emacs-X11 stand-alone and start emacs -nw in the xterm.
> Same funky characters. I try other consoles -- same funky characters.
> Again, the windowed mode doesn't have these problems, just the issues
> with minimized apps disappearing beyond the bottom of Openbox.
>
> If I could just get rid of the funky xterm characters, I'd call it a day....

Read about the PS1 environment variable in the bash manual (or google).

Ken

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Re: Resizing problem

[Ken Brown]

On 7/15/2010 10:03 PM, Ken Brown wrote:
> On 7/15/2010 9:26 PM, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Ken Brown<kbrown@cornell.edu>   wrote:
>>> On 7/15/2010 3:51 PM, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I am using the emacs-X11 and yes, I started it (after starting
>>>> the X server to get multiwindowed mode) with ">emacs&" at the cygwin
>>>> command. Emacs-X11 comes up fine, looking good. Then I do "M-x shell"
>>>> to get a shell environment inside of Emacs. But what comes up is not
>>>> bash. I'm not sure what it is, but it sees no cygwin apps: It doesn't
>>>> know what "ls" or "which diff" or any other GNU/cygwin stuff is. I
>>>> assume it is the DOS shell. Oddly, if I start emacs-X11 inside the
>>>> windowed mode (startx) and do emacs shell mode, it does see bash and
>>>> the rest of the GNU/cygwin apps.
>>>
>>> [Please don't top-post.]
>>>
>>> I think the problem is that your PATH isn't set correctly inside emacs.  How
>>> are you starting the X server?  If you use the start menu shortcut (with
>>> target C:\cygwin\bin\run.exe /usr/bin/bash.exe -l -c /usr/bin/startxwin.exe)
>>> you shouldn't have that problem.  Notice that it uses 'bash -l' precisely so
>>> that the environment, including PATH, is set up in the normal way.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>
>> I started the X-server with the menu shortcut (which has the execute
>> string you listed) and ... after ... a full minute it delivers a
>> stand-alone xterm. I then click on the Emacs-X11, and after a long
>
> It sounds like you're using the Emacs-X11 start menu shortcut that's
> created by the X-start-menu-icons package.  Don't use it.  It doesn't
> set up the environment properly before starting emacs.  To get a useful
> shortcut, you can use the script /usr/bin/make-emacs-shortcut that comes
> with the emacs package.

I should have added that you should see 
/usr/share/doc/Cygwin/emacs.README for more information about that 
script and the shortcut it creates.

Ken

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Re: Resizing problem

[Olwe Melwasul]

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Ken Brown <kbrown@cornell.edu> wrote:

> I should have added that you should see /usr/share/doc/Cygwin/emacs.README
> for more information about that script and the shortcut it creates.
>
> Ken
>

make-emacs-shortcut was in /bin. There was nothing in the .../README
about it, though. README talked about a source code compile and
install of Emacs. So what exactly should I do with
make-emacs-shortcut? I clicked on it from WinManager and it did
something, now I get normal bash behavior from the non-X11 console
(e.g. default cygwin console and mintty) when I start emacs no window.
When I start multiwindowed, same good behavior. Will look into PS1
environment stuff. And BTW, thank you very much.

Olwe
Grand Marais, MN

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Re: Resizing problem

[Csaba Raduly]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 6:10 AM, Olwe Melwasul  wrote:
> So what exactly should I do with make-emacs-shortcut?

Run it from the xterm: type its name into xterm and press Enter.

-- 
Life is complex, with real and imaginary parts.
"Ok, it boots. Which means it must be bug-free and perfect. " -- Linus Torvalds
"People disagree with me. I just ignore them." -- Linus Torvalds

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Re: Resizing problem

[Ken Brown]

On 7/16/2010 12:10 AM, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Ken Brown<kbrown@cornell.edu>  wrote:
>
>> I should have added that you should see /usr/share/doc/Cygwin/emacs.README
>> for more information about that script and the shortcut it creates.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>
> make-emacs-shortcut was in /bin. There was nothing in the .../README
> about it, though. README talked about a source code compile and
> install of Emacs.

/bin and /usr/bin are the same (via mount) in Cygwin.  If they appear 
different, then you're looking at them with non-Cygwin tools.  And the 
README for emacs-23.2-1 does talk about make-emacs-shortcut.  Under 
"Usage notes" it says:

  2. The script /usr/bin/make-emacs-shortcut can be used to create a
     shortcut for starting emacs.  As shipped, this shortcut starts
     emacs under X if an X server is running and in a mintty window
     otherwise.  Edit it as desired.

And a little further down it says:

In addition, you will need cygutils in order to run the
make-emacs-shortcut script described above, and you will need mintty
and run2 to use the shortcut it creates.

Ken

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Re: Resizing problem

[Jon TURNEY]

On 15/07/2010 18:02, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
> I installed cygwin/xcygwin 1.7.5 with KDE.

I don't know where you got KDE from, but it's not in the standard cygwin 
distribution.  If you have problems with KDE, perhaps you should try the place 
you got it from.

> I tried clicking on XWin
> Server from the Start menue, but nothing happened. I tried startx from
> the
> cygwin basic terminal. Nothing. After some Google archaeology, I found
> someone that had done this:
>
> cd \cygwin\bin
> ash
> PATH=. rebaseall -v
>
> at the DOS command. Good. It worked. Running startx at the cygwin
> command did start a twm session. But how the KDE would run, I couldn't
> figure out from any amount of documentation or Googling.

Given the rest of this email, I find it hard to believe that the documentation 
you read included 'man Xwin' or the Cygwin/X User Guide [1]

If you did, and you found it unclear, I'd welcome your suggestions as to how 
to improve that documentation.

> After some
> more Googling, I saw a reference to an Openbox. Guessing along, I got
> startx /usr/bin/openbox to give me Openbox. My problem is that I
> cannot minimize anything because it goes down below and out of sight.

Nope.  What's happening here is that you have no panel/taskbar running, so 
there is nothing to show minimized applications.  Openbox is just a Window 
Manager.

> The XWin container window is sized on start up to my right computer
> screen, but when I drag it over to my larger left screen, it can't be
> resized.

from 'man XWin': "The display mode can not be changed once the X server has 
started."  We do not currently support resizing the X screen of a running X 
server.

> I suspect Openbox has a default size larger (lower?) and down
> in the hidden part is no doubt either a task bar with the minimized
> apps or the minimized apps themselves, right?

Wrong, as explained above.

 > Alt-Tab only cycles the
> Win7 apps, not the XWin session apps, BTW.

This behaviour is by design. [2]

If you want to allow the X server to capture alt-tab key presses, you should 
read about the -keyhook option in 'man XWin':

"-[no]keyhook: Enable [disable]  a  low-level  keyboard  hook for catching 
special keypresses like Menu and Alt+Tab and passing them to the X Server 
instead of letting Windows handle them."

And indeed 'startx /usr/bin/openbox-session -- -keyhook' gives you an openbox 
session where you can switch windows using alt-tab.

It's kind of unfortunate that the default configuration of openbox and the X 
server interact in this way to make it difficult to work out how to get your 
minimized applications back, and we could certainly do with some words in the 
User's Guide about using the WMs we provide, but that would best be written by 
someone who actually uses them, which isn't me :-)

> Actually, I don't need the startx version, I could very well use the
> startxwin multi-windows version IF I could get Emacs in shell mode to
> do cygwin bash. Starting the X server and then Emacs multi-windows
> style gets a shell mode that apparently doesn't see cygwin. I'm
> guessing it's using the DOS command.
>
> How can I a) get at the minimized apps? or b) how can I get a
> stand-alone X server-run Emacs to see cygwin bash?

[1] http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ug/cygwin-x-ug.html
[2] http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ug/using-switching.html

-- 
Jon TURNEY
Volunteer Cygwin/X X Server maintainer

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Re: Resizing problem

[Olwe Melwasul]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Jon TURNEY <jon.turney@dronecode.org.uk> wrote:
> On 15/07/2010 18:02, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>>
>> I installed cygwin/xcygwin 1.7.5 with KDE.
>
> I don't know where you got KDE from, but it's not in the standard cygwin
> distribution.  If you have problems with KDE, perhaps you should try the
> place you got it from.
>
>> I tried clicking on XWin
>> Server from the Start menue, but nothing happened. I tried startx from
>> the
>> cygwin basic terminal. Nothing. After some Google archaeology, I found
>> someone that had done this:
>>
>> cd \cygwin\bin
>> ash
>> PATH=. rebaseall -v
>>
>> at the DOS command. Good. It worked. Running startx at the cygwin
>> command did start a twm session. But how the KDE would run, I couldn't
>> figure out from any amount of documentation or Googling.
>
> Given the rest of this email, I find it hard to believe that the
> documentation you read included 'man Xwin' or the Cygwin/X User Guide [1]
>
> If you did, and you found it unclear, I'd welcome your suggestions as to how
> to improve that documentation.

I don't think I'd want to try. I'd likely have "too many questions."
And my feelings would either be bolstered by people like Ken Brown who
answered these initial questions promptly and accurately with
patience, or trampled rudely and brusquely as is Jon Turney's habit.
Yes, I've seen other Jon Turney's responses, and they're not winning
the cygwin cause many friends.

I'm not your typical "newbie from hell," and if I'm having this level
of trouble with cygwin/Xcygwin "out of the box," let that be a
barometer that your product lacks proper documentation. After all, how
many "casual Windows users curious about GNU/Linux" who found Xcygwin
not working out of the box (still not working after reading your
spotty Xcygwin user's guide) would have Googled around for a solution?
I found the "rebase all" and it worked. Why? I still don't know. But
do you expect a real beginner to have gone to those lengths? As for
where I got my distro, I chose the ucalgary mirror because it's one of
the closest to me here in Minnesota. If the ucalgary mirror is dealing
bad source, is that my fault?

I'm a GNU/Linux user who has to teach a course on GNU text/file
manipulation tools to students who've never seen GNU/Linux and will
probably not want to install it on their laptops. Therefore I have to
get cygwin going on their computers. I think I can limp along now....


>
>> After some
>> more Googling, I saw a reference to an Openbox. Guessing along, I got
>> startx /usr/bin/openbox to give me Openbox. My problem is that I
>> cannot minimize anything because it goes down below and out of sight.
>
> Nope.  What's happening here is that you have no panel/taskbar running, so
> there is nothing to show minimized applications.  Openbox is just a Window
> Manager.
>
>> The XWin container window is sized on start up to my right computer
>> screen, but when I drag it over to my larger left screen, it can't be
>> resized.
>
> from 'man XWin': "The display mode can not be changed once the X server has
> started."  We do not currently support resizing the X screen of a running X
> server.
>
>> I suspect Openbox has a default size larger (lower?) and down
>> in the hidden part is no doubt either a task bar with the minimized
>> apps or the minimized apps themselves, right?
>
> Wrong, as explained above.
>
>> Alt-Tab only cycles the
>>
>> Win7 apps, not the XWin session apps, BTW.
>
> This behaviour is by design. [2]
>
> If you want to allow the X server to capture alt-tab key presses, you should
> read about the -keyhook option in 'man XWin':
>
> "-[no]keyhook: Enable [disable]  a  low-level  keyboard  hook for catching
> special keypresses like Menu and Alt+Tab and passing them to the X Server
> instead of letting Windows handle them."
>
> And indeed 'startx /usr/bin/openbox-session -- -keyhook' gives you an
> openbox session where you can switch windows using alt-tab.
>
> It's kind of unfortunate that the default configuration of openbox and the X
> server interact in this way to make it difficult to work out how to get your
> minimized applications back, and we could certainly do with some words in
> the User's Guide about using the WMs we provide, but that would best be
> written by someone who actually uses them, which isn't me :-)
>
>> Actually, I don't need the startx version, I could very well use the
>> startxwin multi-windows version IF I could get Emacs in shell mode to
>> do cygwin bash. Starting the X server and then Emacs multi-windows
>> style gets a shell mode that apparently doesn't see cygwin. I'm
>> guessing it's using the DOS command.
>>
>> How can I a) get at the minimized apps? or b) how can I get a
>> stand-alone X server-run Emacs to see cygwin bash?
>
> [1] http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ug/cygwin-x-ug.html
> [2] http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ug/using-switching.html
>
> --
> Jon TURNEY
> Volunteer Cygwin/X X Server maintainer
>

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Re: Resizing problem

[Andy Koppe]

On 16 July 2010 15:39, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Jon TURNEY wrote:
>>> I installed cygwin/xcygwin 1.7.5 with KDE.
>>
>> I don't know where you got KDE from, but it's not in the standard cygwin
>> distribution.  If you have problems with KDE, perhaps you should try the
>> place you got it from.
>>
>>> I tried clicking on XWin
>>> Server from the Start menue, but nothing happened. I tried startx from
>>> the
>>> cygwin basic terminal. Nothing. After some Google archaeology, I found
>>> someone that had done this:
>>>
>>> cd \cygwin\bin
>>> ash
>>> PATH=. rebaseall -v
>>>
>>> at the DOS command. Good. It worked. Running startx at the cygwin
>>> command did start a twm session. But how the KDE would run, I couldn't
>>> figure out from any amount of documentation or Googling.
>>
>> Given the rest of this email, I find it hard to believe that the
>> documentation you read included 'man Xwin' or the Cygwin/X User Guide [1]
>>
>> If you did, and you found it unclear, I'd welcome your suggestions as to how
>> to improve that documentation.
>
> I don't think I'd want to try. I'd likely have "too many questions."
>
> And my feelings would either be bolstered by people like Ken Brown who
> answered these initial questions promptly and accurately with
> patience, or trampled rudely and brusquely as is Jon Turney's habit.
> Yes, I've seen other Jon Turney's responses, and they're not winning
> the cygwin cause many friends.

That's both insulting and untrue. Jon's doing a great job maintaining
and supporting one of the most complex pieces of Cygwin, and as far as
I remember, his responses are always helpful and accurate.

You did get answers to your questions, and Jon acknowledged that the
documentation needs improvement, so what exactly are you taking
umbrage at anyway? The suggestion that reading the actual manual
instead of just googling around might have helped?


> I'm a GNU/Linux user who has to teach a course on GNU text/file
> manipulation tools to students who've never seen GNU/Linux and will
> probably not want to install it on their laptops.

You do realise that you don't need Cygwin/X to run a Cygwin console or terminal?

Andy

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Re: Resizing problem

[Larry Hall (Cygwin X)]

On 7/16/2010 10:39 AM, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Jon TURNEY<>  wrote:
                                               ^
<http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PCYMTNQREAIYR>.  Thanks.

>> On 15/07/2010 18:02, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>>>
>>> I installed cygwin/xcygwin 1.7.5 with KDE.
>>
>> I don't know where you got KDE from, but it's not in the standard cygwin
>> distribution.  If you have problems with KDE, perhaps you should try the
>> place you got it from.

<snip>

> I'm not your typical "newbie from hell," and if I'm having this level
> of trouble with cygwin/Xcygwin "out of the box," let that be a
> barometer that your product lacks proper documentation. After all, how
> many "casual Windows users curious about GNU/Linux" who found Xcygwin
> not working out of the box (still not working after reading your
> spotty Xcygwin user's guide) would have Googled around for a solution?
> I found the "rebase all" and it worked. Why? I still don't know. But
> do you expect a real beginner to have gone to those lengths? As for
> where I got my distro, I chose the ucalgary mirror because it's one of
> the closest to me here in Minnesota. If the ucalgary mirror is dealing
> bad source, is that my fault?

No but I just checked the calgary mirror and it contains only some qt3 and
qt4 packages, albeit under the heading of KDE.  Still, there is no KDE
window manager or other goodies there so if you really have KDE installed
(which is available from <http://sourceware.org/cygwinports/>), you didn't
get it from the Cygwin distribution, which is the main thing that Jon was
pointing out.  While you can't be held responsible for the state of software
found on some mirror, it's also not fair to hold the Cygwin community
responsible for software that it doesn't distribute.  You want to go to the
source for support in the case of packages that are outside the Cygwin
distribution.

Your issue requiring rebase is a known one.  Unfortunately, it's hard to fix
and it's not possible to predict which installations will have problems
(though typically those with more packages and those containing packages
from other sources will likely have more trouble).  This isn't just a
Cygwin-X issue though.  It's a Cygwin issue in general.  Anyway, I'm
just clarifying some about what you saw rather than providing any silver
bullets to address it.  We're still looking for those silver bullets.

-- 
Larry Hall                              http://www.rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
216 Dalton Rd.                          (508) 893-9889 - FAX
Holliston, MA 01746

_____________________________________________________________________

A: Yes.
> Q: Are you sure?
>> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?

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Re: Resizing problem

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 04:39:58PM +0100, Andy Koppe wrote:
>On 16 July 2010 15:39, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Jon TURNEY wrote:
>>>> I installed cygwin/xcygwin 1.7.5 with KDE.
>>>
>>> I don't know where you got KDE from, but it's not in the standard cygwin
>>> distribution. ??If you have problems with KDE, perhaps you should try the
>>> place you got it from.
>>>
>>>> I tried clicking on XWin
>>>> Server from the Start menue, but nothing happened. I tried startx from
>>>> the
>>>> cygwin basic terminal. Nothing. After some Google archaeology, I found
>>>> someone that had done this:
>>>>
>>>> cd \cygwin\bin
>>>> ash
>>>> PATH=. rebaseall -v
>>>>
>>>> at the DOS command. Good. It worked. Running startx at the cygwin
>>>> command did start a twm session. But how the KDE would run, I couldn't
>>>> figure out from any amount of documentation or Googling.
>>>
>>> Given the rest of this email, I find it hard to believe that the
>>> documentation you read included 'man Xwin' or the Cygwin/X User Guide [1]
>>>
>>> If you did, and you found it unclear, I'd welcome your suggestions as to how
>>> to improve that documentation.
>>
>> I don't think I'd want to try. I'd likely have "too many questions."
>>
>> And my feelings would either be bolstered by people like Ken Brown who
>> answered these initial questions promptly and accurately with
>> patience, or trampled rudely and brusquely as is Jon Turney's habit.
>> Yes, I've seen other Jon Turney's responses, and they're not winning
>> the cygwin cause many friends.
>
>That's both insulting and untrue. Jon's doing a great job maintaining
>and supporting one of the most complex pieces of Cygwin, and as far as
>I remember, his responses are always helpful and accurate.

Big ditto.  And, I will once again offer my usual pragmatic observation
that going personal in a response is not going to have any positive
effect on your prospects of additional support from the object of your
diatribe.

We are giving you stuff for free, including mailing list support.  If
you don't like the type of support you receive then you *can* send email
to a mailing list expressing your outrage but that is not likely to have
any positive effect whatsoever beyond the temporary flush from
expressing "righteous" indignation.

And, additionally, the argument from a stranger who says

1) I know a lot.

2) I found this confusing but I have no intentions of offering
constructive feedback.

is likely going to cause a number of people to discount 1).

cgf

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Re: Resizing problem

[Olwe Melwasul]

If you people simply want to flame me, fine. But everything I said is true:

a) I had problems that no true Windows newbie could have solved from
reading any amount of your "documentation".

b) this or that man page is NOT documentation. (Man pages will
eventually be outlawed under the Geneva Convention as a form of
torture.)

c) after not finding answers, I spent three days searching for this
and that clue, scavenger-hunt-style...

d) ... where I encountered many of Jon T's answers, and, yes, they
were all quite brusque and patronizing -- which put me off wanting to
get on your mailing list.

e) ...where I got some good help from a nice young man, but then
patronized by a not-so-nice person who blew off all my legitimate
complains and problems to patronize me -- as he has done many others.

f) Microsoft's main dig against "open source" software still has a
ring of truth to it, i.e.,  whenever you leave the customer-provider
business relationship (where there's money on the table and even
laws), you very well might encounter this sort of attitude and
behavior. That being, of course, providers who don't care about
customers, or don't even see end-users as customers, but as hoards of
pests sucking up their valuable time with frivolous questions.

So if cygwin is on the front lines of trying to win Windows users over
to GNU/Linux, then we have a problem. I, for one, would expect cygwin
to be inundated with clueless newbies who are

a) not very computer saavy (e.g. what newbie would have done a rebase all?)
b) nervous and in a hurry about deviating so far from Big Redmond
Brother, i.e., not good with "challenging" documentation, likely to do
stupid things.
c) needing lots of hand-holding and not much scolding.

I could go on (and on and on), but I hope you got my drift.

Olwe
Grand Marais, MN

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Re: Resizing problem

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 03:03:07PM -0500, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>If you people simply want to flame me, fine. But everything I said is true:

1) No one flamed you.  Flaming is what you are doing now.

2) You are not a customer.  You have no rights to anything here.  The
flow of obligation does not go from us to you.  We are doing you a favor
by providing you with software and answering your questions.  If you
don't want to use the software or don't like the answers you're getting
then it will not affect us in the slightest if you stop.

3) The point of this project is to provide a UNIX/Linux environment
primarily for people who know UNIX/Linux.  The documentation on our
web site presupposes that.  If you don't like man pages then you have
found the wrong project.

4) Cygwin is not a movement.  It is just a collection of programs which
a number of people have made available for free.  Then those people and
others have volunteered their time to create documentation and answer
questions.  You're welcome.

5) When you say that it took "three days to do ...X" you want us to
conclude that it was hard to find X.  An alternate conclusion is that
you aren't very adept at finding things.  I mention this because it may
not be clear to you that some of your indignant remarks are working
against you.

6) This is an open source project which accepts contributions.  So, if
you truly want to do more than try to convince us that you like to rant
then provide us with concrete suggestions, ideally in the form of actual
changes to the documentation which you so decry.  If you can't be
bothered to provide concrete suggestions and insist on making personal
observations, vague complaints, and pseudo-philosophical pronouncements
then we will all happily conclude that you are YA internet loon who can
be safely ignored.

If you want to do the latter then use the cygwin-talk mailing list as
you'll be off-topic here.  If you want to provide concrete suggestions
for improvement then go ahead.  We'll be happy (seriously) to see them.

cgf

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Re: Resizing problem

[Olwe Melwasul]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Christopher Faylor
<cgf-use-the-mailinglist-please@cygwin.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 03:03:07PM -0500, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>>If you people simply want to flame me, fine. But everything I said is true:
>
> 1) No one flamed you.  Flaming is what you are doing now.

The flaming started when I had complaints and they were blown off and
or criticized.
>
> 2) You are not a customer.  You have no rights to anything here.  The
> flow of obligation does not go from us to you.  We are doing you a favor
> by providing you with software and answering your questions.  If you
> don't want to use the software or don't like the answers you're getting
> then it will not affect us in the slightest if you stop.

Again, Microsoft's whole point.
>
> 3) The point of this project is to provide a UNIX/Linux environment
> primarily for people who know UNIX/Linux.  The documentation on our
> web site presupposes that.  If you don't like man pages then you have
> found the wrong project.

I'm a very typical user coming from the Linux side who will be
introducing GNU/Linux to the non-GNU/Linux crowd. I can't believe this
isn't typical.
>
> 4) Cygwin is not a movement.  It is just a collection of programs which
> a number of people have made available for free.  Then those people and
> others have volunteered their time to create documentation and answer
> questions.  You're welcome.
>
> 5) When you say that it took "three days to do ...X" you want us to
> conclude that it was hard to find X.  An alternate conclusion is that
> you aren't very adept at finding things.  I mention this because it may
> not be clear to you that some of your indignant remarks are working
> against you.
>
> 6) This is an open source project which accepts contributions.  So, if
> you truly want to do more than try to convince us that you like to rant
> then provide us with concrete suggestions, ideally in the form of actual
> changes to the documentation which you so decry.  If you can't be
> bothered to provide concrete suggestions and insist on making personal
> observations, vague complaints, and pseudo-philosophical pronouncements
> then we will all happily conclude that you are YA internet loon who can
> be safely ignored.

I'd say offer tutorials and guides that include "known issues". This
is very common in other OS projects. Do some hand-holding on-line.
Don't patronize people. And no, man pages are not suited for newbies
as guides or tutorials. They're for pros who know what they're doing.
>
> If you want to do the latter then use the cygwin-talk mailing list as
> you'll be off-topic here.  If you want to provide concrete suggestions
> for improvement then go ahead.  We'll be happy (seriously) to see them.
>
> cgf
>

Yeah, well, any normal person would have given up on this long ago,
not put up with any patronizing, and most certainly not put up with
being massively flamed. So no, I'm not normal. Good bye cygwin!

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Re: Resizing problem

[DePriest, Jason R.]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Olwe Melwasul <> wrote:
> I'd say offer tutorials and guides that include "known issues". This
> is very common in other OS projects. Do some hand-holding on-line.
> Don't patronize people. And no, man pages are not suited for newbies
> as guides or tutorials. They're for pros who know what they're doing.


I frequently learn almost everything I need to know about an
application by using its man pages as well as its info doc if it has
it.  One of the finest moments in my introduction to *nix was when I
discovered I could learn about any command by simply typing 'man
<command>'.  I'd love it if Windows had a similar feature.

Not to be patronizing, but by definition, if someone knows what they
are doing, they won't check out a man page anyway.

If you want to know about "Cygwin" try the Cygwin User's Guide
http://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/cygwin-ug-net.html.  It has plain
English explanations about how Cygwin works.  There is also the FAQ
http://cygwin.com/faq.html which may answer some of the whys or why
nots that the UG skims over.

I read the UG and FAQ a few times a month and I always find what I am
looking for or learn something new.

If you want to get deep into Cygwin's past, I'd suggest doing a custom
Google search with 'site:cygwin.com/ml/cygwin' to search strictly the
mailing list archives.

Finally, if you *do* happen to find any tutorials about how to do
things with Cygwin and they aren't on the cygwin.com website, they are
probably outdated and are definitely not supported by the Cygwin core
team.  For example, I know there are several old tutorials on getting
ssh to work with Cygwin.  They are wrong.

Oh, Cygwin specific bits of trivia about installed packages can be
found in /usr/share/doc/Cygwin.

Again, don't dis' the man page.  Try 'man bash' or 'man grep' for
examples of excellent man pages with examples and detailed
explanations.  If you have it installed, try 'man nmap'; the source of
the man page is the same source used to build the online
documentation.

'man' is one of the most useful commands there is.  Please don't
discount it as some esoteric, propeller head gizmo.

-Jason

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Re: Resizing problem

[Olwe Melwasul]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:07 PM, DePriest, Jason R.
<jrdepriest@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Olwe Melwasul <> wrote:
>> I'd say offer tutorials and guides that include "known issues". This
>> is very common in other OS projects. Do some hand-holding on-line.
>> Don't patronize people. And no, man pages are not suited for newbies
>> as guides or tutorials. They're for pros who know what they're doing.
>
>
> I frequently learn almost everything I need to know about an
> application by using its man pages as well as its info doc if it has
> it.  One of the finest moments in my introduction to *nix was when I
> discovered I could learn about any command by simply typing 'man
> <command>'.  I'd love it if Windows had a similar feature.
>
> Not to be patronizing, but by definition, if someone knows what they
> are doing, they won't check out a man page anyway.
>
> If you want to know about "Cygwin" try the Cygwin User's Guide
> http://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/cygwin-ug-net.html.  It has plain
> English explanations about how Cygwin works.  There is also the FAQ
> http://cygwin.com/faq.html which may answer some of the whys or why
> nots that the UG skims over.
>
> I read the UG and FAQ a few times a month and I always find what I am
> looking for or learn something new.
>
> If you want to get deep into Cygwin's past, I'd suggest doing a custom
> Google search with 'site:cygwin.com/ml/cygwin' to search strictly the
> mailing list archives.
>
> Finally, if you *do* happen to find any tutorials about how to do
> things with Cygwin and they aren't on the cygwin.com website, they are
> probably outdated and are definitely not supported by the Cygwin core
> team.  For example, I know there are several old tutorials on getting
> ssh to work with Cygwin.  They are wrong.
>
> Oh, Cygwin specific bits of trivia about installed packages can be
> found in /usr/share/doc/Cygwin.
>
> Again, don't dis' the man page.  Try 'man bash' or 'man grep' for
> examples of excellent man pages with examples and detailed
> explanations.  If you have it installed, try 'man nmap'; the source of
> the man page is the same source used to build the online
> documentation.
>
> 'man' is one of the most useful commands there is.  Please don't
> discount it as some esoteric, propeller head gizmo.
>

After my last email, I
a) went down to the lake (Superior) and stuck my head underwater until
the steam stopped bubbling up
b) took some horse tranquilizers
c) read the Wikipedia article on Mother Teresa

I'm okay now.

Yes, I'll do that, Jason. And yes, man pages are actually beautiful.
W. Richard Stevens (Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment) said
that it's very important to learn how to read code. I guess learning
how to wade through man pages is similar; after all, it's just a step
above reading the source code. Yes, batteries may be included, but
some heavy lifting may be required.

O
GM, MN

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RE: Resizing problem

[Timares, Brian (EDS/HP)]

Christopher Faylor
>On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 04:39:58PM +0100, Andy Koppe wrote:
>>On 16 July 2010 15:39, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Jon TURNEY wrote:
[something]

>>> And my feelings would either be bolstered by people like Ken Brown
who
>>> answered these initial questions promptly and accurately with
>>> patience, or trampled rudely and brusquely as is Jon Turney's habit.

>Big ditto.  And, I will once again offer my usual pragmatic observation
>that going personal in a response is not going to have any positive
>effect on your prospects of additional support from the object of your
>diatribe.
>
>We are giving you stuff for free, including mailing list support.  If
>you don't like the type of support you receive then you *can* send
email
>to a mailing list expressing your outrage but that is not likely to
have
>any positive effect whatsoever beyond the temporary flush from
>expressing "righteous" indignation.

Hi,

Here are some constructive suggestions for both "sides".

First, adding rudeness to the mix is unlikely to help.  The upset a user
feels, when applied to someone else, won't result in the solution to
what was the original issue.  Of course, the rudeness felt by a user
when applied by someone more experienced also helps no one.

Second, when someone gets upset, there is typically a reason for it.  It
isn't always anyone's fault.  I can tell there are some people here to
whom English is a second language.  And many to whom precision comes
before niceties.  There is no intent to be rude, even if a native
speaker might reasonably suspect that.  Give the benefit of the doubt.

Third, I see it less here than on, say, anything related to OpenBSD, but
the "It's free, suck it up or go away" and "It's open source, you fix
it" are both terrible answers, essentially saying "FOAD".  If I could
ban anything from the Internet, it would be spelling lose as loose, but
closely behind that would be the dismissive attitude behind the "It's
free" remarks.  It is not likely to have any positive effect whatsoever
beyond the temporary flush from expressing "righteous" indignation.

If someone complains or says "wouldn't it be nice if" or even seeks an
answer to a problem they are showing they care, just as people who offer
up software show they care by offering up the software.  If they don't
care, why are they offering up software?

Realize that criticisms and problems and wants, even if poorly worded,
are really either:
a) Bug reports/Feature requests
b) Someone Just Missed Something, maybe covered in the FAQ

Yes, people should read man pages.  Yes people should check the FAQ.
Yes sometimes something is in the documentation or the mail list.
Sometimes the documentation doesn't cover something, or the mail list
has outdated information.  Or if the answer is there, perhaps it isn't
as clear as it could be (though I find the Cygwin docs do try to deal
with this more than most projects).

If someone has an FAQ complaint, feel free to say "that's covered in the
FAQ, see the signature for the location".  If someone is making what is
essentially a bug report or feature request, tell them what the URL is
to enter it.  Or explain why what they want isn't possible or practical.


Brian
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Re: Resizing problem

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 05:23:26PM -0500, Olwe Melwasul wrote:
>After my last email, I
>a) went down to the lake (Superior) and stuck my head underwater until
>the steam stopped bubbling up
>b) took some horse tranquilizers
>c) read the Wikipedia article on Mother Teresa
>
>I'm okay now.
>
>Yes, I'll do that, Jason. And yes, man pages are actually beautiful.
>W. Richard Stevens (Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment) said
>that it's very important to learn how to read code. I guess learning
>how to wade through man pages is similar; after all, it's just a step
>above reading the source code. Yes, batteries may be included, but
>some heavy lifting may be required.

You have seriously deluded yourself into thinking that you have valid
points.  Good bye.  Please don't write.

cgf

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Re: Resizing problem

[Christopher Faylor]

I'll say it again.  If you want to have a non-cygwin-xfree discussion
use the cygwin-talk mailing list.  That's what it is for.

My response will be there.

This thread is officially closed.  No more responses please.

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