FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Dario Alcocer]

FYI:

I'm not sure if everyone realized this (I know *I* didn't until
this afternoon), but the HTML source of Eric Raymond's "How to Ask
Questions the Smart Way" actually has HTML targets that you can use
to refer to specific sections directly.

So, rather than wasting time trying to answer a non-smart question,
we would be better off referring the requester to a specific section
of Raymond's document using the named targets.

An example:

  Q. "Can I perform a directory recursion with grep? PLEASE HELP ME
     NOW!! I'M STUCK!!!"

  A. "See: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#AEN214
     (first paragraph.)"

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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 02:22:11PM -0700, Dario Alcocer wrote:
>FYI:
>
>I'm not sure if everyone realized this (I know *I* didn't until
>this afternoon), but the HTML source of Eric Raymond's "How to Ask
>Questions the Smart Way" actually has HTML targets that you can use
>to refer to specific sections directly.
>
>So, rather than wasting time trying to answer a non-smart question,
>we would be better off referring the requester to a specific section
>of Raymond's document using the named targets.
>
>An example:
>
>  Q. "Can I perform a directory recursion with grep? PLEASE HELP ME
>     NOW!! I'M STUCK!!!"
>
>  A. "See: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#AEN214
>     (first paragraph.)"

Actually, I suspect that most people who post here would benefit from
reading the whole page.  In fact, they should read it several times.

cgf

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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Dario Alcocer]

On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 07:37:21PM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> Actually, I suspect that most people who post here would benefit from
> reading the whole page.  In fact, they should read it several times.

Yes, *very* good point; several readings might be necessary for
some.  Along those lines, I think I'll look into what it would take
for ezmlm to auto-reply subscribers (those making their first or
second post) with a message containing a URL to ESR's essay.  Maybe
they have to pass a quiz before they can post (now *that* should
go over real well.)  OTOH, maybe it would improve the signal/noise
ratio.

If I come up with anything, I'll post to the list.

-- 
Dario Alcocer -- Sr. Software Developer, Helix Digital Inc.
alcocer@helixdigital.com -- http://www.helixdigital.com

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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Raphael]

On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 07:37:21PM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> > Actually, I suspect that most people who post here would benefit from
> > reading the whole page.  In fact, they should read it several times.
>
> Yes, *very* good point; several readings might be necessary for
> some.  Along those lines, I think I'll look into what it would take
> for ezmlm to auto-reply subscribers (those making their first or
> second post) with a message containing a URL to ESR's essay.

If this list is starting autoreplying I will quit it immediatly, trafic is
(not counting repeated spam) high enough as it is.

> Maybe
> they have to pass a quiz before they can post (now *that* should
> go over real well.)  OTOH, maybe it would improve the signal/noise
> ratio.

IMHO the stupidest idea I've read till now, split the list in a 'dummies'
and a 'BOFH' version but dont start disciminating through automated
ballotage. The split is IMHO long overdue anyway, half of what I read is
giberish to me anyway (yup put me in with the 'dummies') and resigning the
list because of this has come to mind several times.



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RE: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Jelks Cabaniss]

Raphael wrote:

> ... split the list in a 'dummies' and a 'BOFH' version ....
> The split is IMHO long overdue anyway, half of what I read
> is giberish to me anyway (yup put me in with the 'dummies')
> and resigning the list because of this has come to mind
> several times.

I couldn't agree more.  That way we can read and learn from the posts
from the 'smart/experienced' folks on *this* list, and ask questions on
the 'dummies/newbies' list without being harangued by various RTFM's,
STFW's, pointers to etiquette screeds, etc. 


/Jelks


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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Max Bowsher]

Jelks Cabaniss wrote:
> Raphael wrote:
>
>> ... split the list in a 'dummies' and a 'BOFH' version ....
>> The split is IMHO long overdue anyway, half of what I read
>> is giberish to me anyway (yup put me in with the 'dummies')
>> and resigning the list because of this has come to mind
>> several times.
>
> I couldn't agree more.  That way we can read and learn from the posts
> from the 'smart/experienced' folks on *this* list, and ask questions
> on the 'dummies/newbies' list without being harangued by various
> RTFM's, STFW's, pointers to etiquette screeds, etc.

Although this may sound like a good idea at first though, I really don't see how
it can work - the only questions which really generate RTFMs and haranguing are
the truly dumb ones (that don't actually include enough information to give
anyone a hope of answering correctly), and the ones which have already been
asked and answered in the past fortnight or so. I agree that the traffic on this
list can be absurdly high, but I think that is an unavoidable artefact of the
large Cygwin user base.

Max.


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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Dario Alcocer]

On Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:56:26AM +0100, Raphael wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 07:37:21PM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> > > Actually, I suspect that most people who post here would benefit from
> > > reading the whole page.  In fact, they should read it several times.
> >
> > Yes, *very* good point; several readings might be necessary for
> > some.  Along those lines, I think I'll look into what it would take
> > for ezmlm to auto-reply subscribers (those making their first or
> > second post) with a message containing a URL to ESR's essay.
> 
> If this list is starting autoreplying I will quit it immediatly, trafic is
> (not counting repeated spam) high enough as it is.

Well, that's OK, after all, that is your prerogative ;-)  Please
read on, though...

> > Maybe
> > they have to pass a quiz before they can post (now *that* should
> > go over real well.)  OTOH, maybe it would improve the signal/noise
> > ratio.
> 
> IMHO the stupidest idea I've read till now, split the list in a 'dummies'
> and a 'BOFH' version but dont start disciminating through automated
> ballotage.

The idea is not split the list, but for initial posters (from what
I've seen on this list, most first-time posters qualify as newbies)
to get a quick lesson in posting meaningful questions *before* they
get to post (only for the first post.)  That's why I suggested the
poster, before they're allowed to post for the first time, get an
e-mail asking them (in a cordial tone, obviously) that they *please*
read the ESR essay *first*[1].

The idea is that the auto-reply is sent only to the *poster* (thereby
*reducing* traffic on the list) on their first (or maybe even second)
post, that way we can be sure that, by the time we see their first
post on the list, they've at least *some* notion of how to post a
reasonable question.  Think of it as an automated form of
pseudo-moderation; only the first-time poster is moderated, which
is done in an automated fashion.

You may ask "we're did he come up with such a stupid idea like
that!"  Well, after being a member of this list for several years
now, I've seen many of the experienced people get very frustrated
with the list (DJ, Chris, and Chuck.)  Most of this frustration[2]
has to do with having to "school" the new users in the proper way
to conduct inquiries with respect to Cygwin.

Now, my thought was, we can either curse the darkness, or we can
light a candle.  My way of lighting a candle is to automate what
Chris and Chuck always have to do manually: ask the user to perform
some of the required "homework" that's stated in the ESR essay,
before they ask their question.  Instead of continually expecting
hard-working people like Chris and Chuck to keep having to deal
with these "newbie" requests, let's automate the process (after
all, computers are good at automation), so that the newbies can
still participate (after first having been properly "trained".) The
rest of us on the list can hopefully see an increase in the quality
of the questions that are asked, and the quality of the responses,
while at the same time slightly reducing the list traffic.

== Footnotes ==

[1] - One other way to do this is to include a link to the ESR essay
in the confirmation e-mail subscribers receive, but I *doubt* very
much that most would take the time to read it then.  However, if
we instead wait to ask them when they're focused on getting their
first question answered, we can hopefully start teaching them the
fine art of asking questions.

[2] - Their frustration has a direct impact on all of us; to the
extent that they feel "used and abused" (so to speak), we'll probably
see their contributions suffer, which is bad for all of us involved
in Cygwin.

-- 
Dario Alcocer -- Sr. Software Developer, Helix Digital Inc.
alcocer@helixdigital.com -- http://www.helixdigital.com

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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Jim Balcom]

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:

DA>>The idea is not split the list, but for initial posters (from what
DA>>I've seen on this list, most first-time posters qualify as newbies)
DA>>to get a quick lesson in posting meaningful questions *before* they
DA>>get to post (only for the first post.)  That's why I suggested the
DA>>poster, before they're allowed to post for the first time, get an
DA>>e-mail asking them (in a cordial tone, obviously) that they *please*
DA>>read the ESR essay *first*[1].

I find your assumption that all first time posters are newbies and need to
be trained offensive.

The fact that newbies questions get ignored is upsetting.

Nicholas W?'s attitude is horrible!

I've learned that this is not a package that I need to waste any more time
on. I've heard that it is great. But, like OS/2, it won't install and no
help is available for simple problems.

-= Jim =-

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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 10:03:57PM -0400, Jim Balcom wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:
>>The idea is not split the list, but for initial posters (from what I've
>>seen on this list, most first-time posters qualify as newbies) to get a
>>quick lesson in posting meaningful questions *before* they get to post
>>(only for the first post.) That's why I suggested the poster, before
>>they're allowed to post for the first time, get an e-mail asking them
>>(in a cordial tone, obviously) that they *please* read the ESR essay
>>*first*[1].
>
>I find your assumption that all first time posters are newbies and need
>to be trained offensive.

This is perplexing since, AFAICT, your first question in this mailing
list asked to be "steered to the answer".  Obviously you were a newbie
needing to be trained yourself.

>The fact that newbies questions get ignored is upsetting.

Newbies *aren't* ignored.  Or at least, I'd estimate that the vast majority
of newbie questions are responded to.

>Nicholas W?'s attitude is horrible!

Where did this come from?  Nicholas hasn't even responded to this
thread.  As I can't recall Nicholas ever randomly attacking anyone, I'd
have to say that I vastly prefer his attitude to yours.  He actually
seems to be going well out of his way to be helpful.  He answers
questions in this forum and he actually contributes *his time* in trying
to improve cygwin.  Rather than giving vent to unconstructive whines, he
actually tries to improve the process.

>I've learned that this is not a package that I need to waste any more time
>on. I've heard that it is great. But, like OS/2, it won't install and no
>help is available for simple problems.

If you are referring to your message with the subject "Installation
Problem???" sent today at 6:51PM EDT, then chill, dude.  Did you happen
to notice that it is Sunday?  This mailing list is no different from any
other.  It's not a paid tech support service.  People answer (or not) as
they notice the question.

Or perhaps you are miffed by the fact that no one responded to your
first request, made in reply to a totally unrelated subject (Server
Port?).  In this attempt, you quoted some of the previous email
transactions from that thread and somehow tried to equate it to your
situation even though there was no hint whatsoever that it had anything
to do with your problem.  This is a *classic* newbie mistake and is
actually covered in the smart questions url.

Regardless, the question has now been answered.  Since you are still
subscribed to the mailing list as of this writing, hopefully the
answer will do you some good.

As mentioned, this whole thread is about asking smart questions.  I
strongly suspect that you are having an inexplicable emotional response
to something that was not focused at you personally and have not availed
yourself of the referenced URL.

Do yourself a favor and start reading here: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html .
That page has a reference to the smart question url as well as several
other hints.

cgf

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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Dario Alcocer]

On Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 10:03:57PM -0400, Jim Balcom wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:
> 
> DA>>The idea is not split the list, but for initial posters (from what
> DA>>I've seen on this list, most first-time posters qualify as newbies)
> DA>>to get a quick lesson in posting meaningful questions *before* they
> DA>>get to post (only for the first post.)  That's why I suggested the
> DA>>poster, before they're allowed to post for the first time, get an
> DA>>e-mail asking them (in a cordial tone, obviously) that they *please*
> DA>>read the ESR essay *first*[1].
> 
> I find your assumption that all first time posters are newbies and need to
> be trained offensive.

Please read *carefully* what I wrote: I said "MOST first-time
posters", which obviously doesn't mean the same thing as "ALL first
time posters" (what you wrote, my emphasis.)  Of course I've
generalized, but in this particular case, the generalization will
do little harm [1].

> The fact that newbies questions get ignored is upsetting.

No, you didn't bother to *carefully* read what I wrote.  (Please
take the time now to read what I wrote again...  I'll wait...  Done?
OK, let's continue...)

Again, what I said is that a first-time poster would have to read
ESRs essay first; once they *read* the essay, they would be *allowed*
to post their question.  The idea is that they will hopefully make
sure their question were properly *researched* and *formulated* to
increase the chances of it getting answered.

As should be obvious from actually reading what I wrote, I'm not
advocating ignoring newbies, just educating them.

== Footnotes ==

[1] - The worst this generalization would lead to with respect to
my proposed "pseudo moderation" solution is force non-newbie
first-time posters to receive a single message with a link to ESRs
essay.  I *doubt* many non-newbie first-time posters would take
umbrage.

-- 
Dario Alcocer -- Sr. Software Developer, Helix Digital Inc.
alcocer@helixdigital.com -- http://www.helixdigital.com

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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Raphael]

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Jim Balcom wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:
>
> DA>>The idea is not split the list, but for initial posters (from what
> DA>>I've seen on this list, most first-time posters qualify as newbies)
> DA>>to get a quick lesson in posting meaningful questions *before* they
> DA>>get to post (only for the first post.)  That's why I suggested the
> DA>>poster, before they're allowed to post for the first time, get an
> DA>>e-mail asking them (in a cordial tone, obviously) that they *please*
> DA>>read the ESR essay *first*[1].
>
> I find your assumption that all first time posters are newbies and need to
> be trained offensive.
>
> The fact that newbies questions get ignored is upsetting.
>
> Nicholas W?'s attitude is horrible!
>
> I've learned that this is not a package that I need to waste any more time
> on. I've heard that it is great. But, like OS/2, it won't install and no
> help is available for simple problems.
>
Thats a bit short tempered, I'm not a real newbee and I know how to find
most answers, but I agree there's some fear to ask a question but no
reason to dump cygwin, it's great and there is help.


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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Raphael]

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:

> > If this list is starting autoreplying I will quit it immediatly, trafic is
> > (not counting repeated spam) high enough as it is.
>
> Well, that's OK, after all, that is your prerogative ;-)  Please
> read on, though...

;-D

> > > Maybe
> > > they have to pass a quiz before they can post (now *that* should
> > > go over real well.)  OTOH, maybe it would improve the signal/noise
> > > ratio.
> >
> > IMHO the stupidest idea I've read till now, split the list in a 'dummies'
> > and a 'BOFH' version but dont start disciminating through automated
> > ballotage.
>
> The idea is not split the list, but for initial posters (from what
> I've seen on this list, most first-time posters qualify as newbies)
> to get a quick lesson in posting meaningful questions *before* they
> get to post (only for the first post.)  That's why I suggested the
> poster, before they're allowed to post for the first time, get an
> e-mail asking them (in a cordial tone, obviously) that they *please*
> read the ESR essay *first*[1].

Well sending starting users a welcome faq is something completely
differend then a exame or quiz. I agree on that.

> The idea is that the auto-reply is sent only to the *poster* (thereby
> *reducing* traffic on the list)
> on their first (or maybe even second)
> post, that way we can be sure that, by the time we see their first
> post on the list, they've at least *some* notion of how to post a
> reasonable question.  Think of it as an automated form of
> pseudo-moderation; only the first-time poster is moderated, which
> is done in an automated fashion.

Moderation? Don´t start me on that one. In the end Moderation only
resolves in new not cygwin lists that will attrackt trolls to the cygwin
list. I'm glad to eleborate if this is not clear.

> You may ask "we're did he come up with such a stupid idea like
> that!"  Well, after being a member of this list for several years
> now, I've seen many of the experienced people get very frustrated
> with the list (DJ, Chris, and Chuck.)  Most of this frustration[2]
> has to do with having to "school" the new users in the proper way
> to conduct inquiries with respect to Cygwin.

Who asked them to school new users? Now don't get me wrong, anybody's
contribution is valuable and special. But if people think they have to
school fellow list members and are irritated by that it might be a good
idea for them to take some time of?

> Now, my thought was, we can either curse the darkness, or we can
> light a candle.  My way of lighting a candle is to automate what
> Chris and Chuck always have to do manually: ask the user to perform
> some of the required "homework" that's stated in the ESR essay,
> before they ask their question.

But isn't this already asked before subscribing to the list? I subscibed
using the site and remeber clearly that there was somekind of incentive
there and if I'm not mistaking the manual states something alike. What a
lot of people forget is that for a newbee it is not always clear where to
find the right answer or faq. Now without provocating the obvious answer
of sending in a patch or diff (I can write a few lines but do not ask me
to diff or patch or CVS) might it be a good idea to extend this request
with some lines as how to use the listarchive and to set up some kind of
extended FAQ page on the site?

>  Instead of continually expecting
> hard-working people like Chris and Chuck to keep having to deal
> with these "newbie" requests, let's automate the process (after
> all, computers are good at automation), so that the newbies can
> still participate (after first having been properly "trained".) The
> rest of us on the list can hopefully see an increase in the quality
> of the questions that are asked, and the quality of the responses,
> while at the same time slightly reducing the list traffic.

Well as you noticed I think it's better to give 'hardworking people' their
own list where they will not be bothered. I could even agree to make that
accesible by an exame ;-)

 > == Footnotes ==
>
> [1] - One other way to do this is to include a link to the ESR essay
> in the confirmation e-mail subscribers receive, but I *doubt* very
> much that most would take the time to read it then.  However, if
> we instead wait to ask them when they're focused on getting their
> first question answered, we can hopefully start teaching them the
> fine art of asking questions.

Is that what this list is for?

> [2] - Their frustration has a direct impact on all of us; to the
> extent that they feel "used and abused" (so to speak), we'll probably
> see their contributions suffer, which is bad for all of us involved
> in Cygwin.

From experience I know their are more trees in the forrest and if Alice
stamps here feet the cheshire cat starts smiling and becomes invisable.

Raphael


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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Raphael]

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Max Bowsher wrote:

> Jelks Cabaniss wrote:
> > Raphael wrote:
> >
> >> ... split the list in a 'dummies' and a 'BOFH' version ....
> >> The split is IMHO long overdue anyway, half of what I read
> >> is giberish to me anyway (yup put me in with the 'dummies')
> >> and resigning the list because of this has come to mind
> >> several times.
> >
> > I couldn't agree more.  That way we can read and learn from the posts
> > from the 'smart/experienced' folks on *this* list, and ask questions
> > on the 'dummies/newbies' list without being harangued by various
> > RTFM's, STFW's, pointers to etiquette screeds, etc.
>
> Although this may sound like a good idea at first though, I really don't
> see how it can work

It's quite easy actually, just as I take the time to instruct newbees that
there linelength is not according to current RFC´s other people might
point out cygwin newbees to FAQ's quoting the answer from a FAQ pointed
to. This encouridges people to read the faq instead of feeling harrashed.
And yes this happens on a lot of newbee lists becouse people do not expect
anything from them and exept the same question ask 100 times before they
start publishing a sort of weekly or montly FAQ, that is not appreciated
by the god who will then vanish to a god list. Easy.

> - the only questions which really generate RTFMs and
> haranguing are the truly dumb ones (that don't actually include enough
> information to give anyone a hope of answering correctly)

I always learned that the only dumb question is one that hasn't been
asked.

> , and the ones
> which have already been asked and answered in the past fortnight or so.

Thank you for your opinion, I hope you don't feel offended if it stay's
your and will not become mine.

> I agree that the traffic on this list can be absurdly high, but I think
> that is an unavoidable artefact of the large Cygwin user base.

Not if these kind of meta discussions a starting to become frequent. Noise
generates noise as this example quit clearly shows.

>
> Max.
>

Sorry for my English I probably missed a FAQ.

Raphael


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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Nicholas Wourms]

--- Raphael <raphael@oninet.pt> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Jim Balcom wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:
> >
> > DA>>The idea is not split the list, but for initial posters (from what
> > DA>>I've seen on this list, most first-time posters qualify as
> newbies)
> > DA>>to get a quick lesson in posting meaningful questions *before*
> they
> > DA>>get to post (only for the first post.)  That's why I suggested the
> > DA>>poster, before they're allowed to post for the first time, get an
> > DA>>e-mail asking them (in a cordial tone, obviously) that they
> *please*
> > DA>>read the ESR essay *first*[1].
> >
> > I find your assumption that all first time posters are newbies and
> need to
> > be trained offensive.
> >
> > The fact that newbies questions get ignored is upsetting.
> >
> > Nicholas W?'s attitude is horrible!
> >
> > I've learned that this is not a package that I need to waste any more
> time
> > on. I've heard that it is great. But, like OS/2, it won't install and
> no
> > help is available for simple problems.
> >
> Thats a bit short tempered, I'm not a real newbee and I know how to find
> most answers, but I agree there's some fear to ask a question but no
> reason to dump cygwin, it's great and there is help.

Larry Hall, where are you (when we need you the most)?


__________________________________________________
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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 03:50 PM 7/22/2002, Nicholas Wourms wrote:

>--- Raphael <raphael@oninet.pt> wrote:
> > On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Jim Balcom wrote:
> > 
> > > On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:
> > >
> > > DA>>The idea is not split the list, but for initial posters (from what
> > > DA>>I've seen on this list, most first-time posters qualify as
> > newbies)
> > > DA>>to get a quick lesson in posting meaningful questions *before*
> > they
> > > DA>>get to post (only for the first post.)  That's why I suggested the
> > > DA>>poster, before they're allowed to post for the first time, get an
> > > DA>>e-mail asking them (in a cordial tone, obviously) that they
> > *please*
> > > DA>>read the ESR essay *first*[1].
> > >
> > > I find your assumption that all first time posters are newbies and
> > need to
> > > be trained offensive.
> > >
> > > The fact that newbies questions get ignored is upsetting.
> > >
> > > Nicholas W?'s attitude is horrible!
> > >
> > > I've learned that this is not a package that I need to waste any more
> > time
> > > on. I've heard that it is great. But, like OS/2, it won't install and
> > no
> > > help is available for simple problems.
> > >
> > Thats a bit short tempered, I'm not a real newbee and I know how to find
> > most answers, but I agree there's some fear to ask a question but no
> > reason to dump cygwin, it's great and there is help.
>
>Larry Hall, where are you (when we need you the most)?


It's nice to be missed. ;-)

Actually, I have to apologize to the list.  My latest day-gig effectively
blocks my ability to conveniently monitor the list, which curtails my 
responses.  That coupled with (what appears to me as) a dramatic
increase in volume on this list in the last month or so keeps me well 
behind the times w.r.t. just *reading* the posts, which is relegated to 
"after hours".  By the time I read most posts, it seems any response I 
might contribute is at least untimely if not redundant.  So my on-line 
presence on the list is no longer very pronounced (do I hear a collective
sigh of relief? ;-) )  Eventually, this situation will resolve itself
though my preference is for a change sooner rather than later.  In the 
meantime, I'll go back to reading.  Only 432 more messages to go! ;-)





Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Dario Alcocer]

On Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:25:50PM +0100, Raphael wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:
> > [snip]
> Moderation? Don´t start me on that one. In the end Moderation only
> resolves in new not cygwin lists that will attrackt trolls to the cygwin
> list. I'm glad to eleborate if this is not clear.

No need to elaborate, I'm well aware of the "double-edged sword"
aspects of moderation.  Besides, if you read again what I wrote,
I'm referring to a very limited form of moderation, which only
affects the initial post made by all subscribers.  That hardly seems
like a detail to "get started" on.

> Who asked them to school new users? Now don't get me wrong, anybody's
> contribution is valuable and special. But if people think they have to
> school fellow list members and are irritated by that it might be a good
> idea for them to take some time of?

Well, you're right, no one *asked* them.  However, as ESR's essay
points out, community standards don't come for free.  They have to
be enforced and communicated (what I referred to as "schooling"),
and the problem with many new users that participate in public
mailing lists is that they don't realize that a certain standard
of conduct is expected of them in order to keep the mailing list
working for the common good.

Now granted, you may argue that there are other ways to familiarize
new users with the standards of conduct.  You seem to prefer the
FAQ.  I guess I prefer the immediate feedback provided by auto-reply
to initial posters.

> [snip]
> I subscibed
> using the site and remeber clearly that there was somekind of incentive
> there and if I'm not mistaking the manual states something alike. What a
> lot of people forget is that for a newbee it is not always clear where to
> find the right answer or faq.

Absolutely, I agree with you, it's not always clear.  In fact, I
think you may have just corroborated what I've observed for a long
time; information is only *useful* when you are *expecting* to
receive it.

Trying to tell a new user how to ask questions in the subscription
confirmation is *not* effective because it is *ignored*.  The new
user isn't *ready* to hear about "how to ask smart questions"
immediately upon subscribing.  The information is irrelevant at
that moment, since they're *not* asking a question at that particular
moment.  However, they will be more receptive when they are trying
to get help for the first time; this is the correct time to tell
them.

The moment they're ready to ask their first question on the list
is *precisely* the moment you want to inform them of the minimum
requirements that they are expected to meet.  This the reason why
I think blocking first-time posts and automatically informing the
requester they can re-submit their question (after they've read
ESR's essay) is better.

> Well as you noticed I think it's better to give 'hardworking people' their
> own list where they will not be bothered. I could even agree to make that
> accesible by an exame ;-)

Well, I don't agree, but of course, you have the right to your
opinion :-P

Seriously, though, I don't think that you want to separate newbies
because then, newbies will probably never become gurus.  We *want*
more gurus, because the more gurus we have, the more questions get
answered, and by extension, the more newbies that are helped.

My impression is that Chris, Chuck and the other gurus don't mind
answering questions, per se.  They just would like the requesters
to do a little homework before they ask, that's all.

> > == Footnotes ==
> >
> > [1] - One other way to do this is to include a link to the ESR essay
> > in the confirmation e-mail subscribers receive, but I *doubt* very
> > much that most would take the time to read it then.  However, if
> > we instead wait to ask them when they're focused on getting their
> > first question answered, we can hopefully start teaching them the
> > fine art of asking questions.
> 
> Is that what this list is for?

No, but surely if *everyone* on this list (gurus and newbies alike)
asked questions the "smart way" we'd all reap the benefits of a
better and more fruitful mailing list.

Thanks for your comments, you've helped me sharpen my thinking on
this somewhat controversial topic.

-- 
Dario Alcocer -- Sr. Software Developer, Helix Digital Inc.
alcocer@helixdigital.com -- http://www.helixdigital.com

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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Raphael]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:25:50PM +0100, Raphael wrote:
> > On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > Moderation? Don´t start me on that one. In the end Moderation only
> > resolves in new not cygwin lists that will attrackt trolls to the cygwin
> > list. I'm glad to eleborate if this is not clear.
>
> No need to elaborate, I'm well aware of the "double-edged sword"
> aspects of moderation.  Besides, if you read again what I wrote,
> I'm referring to a very limited form of moderation, which only
> affects the initial post made by all subscribers.  That hardly seems
> like a detail to "get started" on.

Yes it is, becouse your not talking about a first or second posting but
about access to the list through a quiz. If I get this wrong then excuse
me.

> > Who asked them to school new users? Now don't get me wrong, anybody's
> > contribution is valuable and special. But if people think they have to
> > school fellow list members and are irritated by that it might be a good
> > idea for them to take some time of?
>
> Well, you're right, no one *asked* them.  However, as ESR's essay
> points out, community standards don't come for free.  They have to
> be enforced and communicated (what I referred to as "schooling"),
> and the problem with many new users that participate in public
> mailing lists is that they don't realize that a certain standard
> of conduct is expected of them in order to keep the mailing list
> working for the common good.

Include The Aunt Emily Faq in the welcome faq I would suggest, I myself
hate forinstance the wellbehaved educaters on this list who do not seem to
understand how the quoting machanisme works and persist in giving answers
above a message. But this is not the issue here.

> Now granted, you may argue that there are other waysto familiarize
> new users with the standards of conduct.  You seem to prefer the
> FAQ.  I guess I prefer the immediate feedback provided by auto-reply
> to initial posters.

I can accept that.

> > [snip]
> > I subscibed
> > using the site and remeber clearly that there was somekind of incentive
> > there and if I'm not mistaking the manual states something alike. What a
> > lot of people forget is that for a newbee it is not always clear where to
> > find the right answer or faq.
>
> Absolutely, I agree with you, it's not always clear.  In fact, I
> think you may have just corroborated what I've observed for a long
> time; information is only *useful* when you are *expecting* to
> receive it.
>
> Trying to tell a new user how to ask questions in the subscription
> confirmation is *not* effective because it is *ignored*.  The new
> user isn't *ready* to hear about "how to ask smart questions"
> immediately upon subscribing.  The information is irrelevant at
> that moment, since they're *not* asking a question at that particular
> moment.  However, they will be more receptive when they are trying
> to get help for the first time; this is the correct time to tell
> them.

I'm aware of social engineering, I also aware that this can be overdone,
IMHO you will just create a disappointment, somebody mailing for the first
time denying an answer (or at least an answer where they didn't ask for)
will disencourage the use of cygwin.

> The moment they're ready to ask their first question on the list
> is *precisely* the moment you want to inform them of the minimum
> requirements that they are expected to meet.  This the reason why
> I think blocking first-time posts and automatically informing the
> requester they can re-submit their question (after they've read
> ESR's essay) is better.
>
> > Well as you noticed I think it's better to give 'hardworking people' their
> > own list where they will not be bothered. I could even agree to make that
> > accesible by an exame ;-)
>
> Well, I don't agree, but of course, you have the right to your
> opinion :-P
>
> Seriously, though, I don't think that you want to separate newbies
> because then, newbies will probably never become gurus.  We *want*
> more gurus, because the more gurus we have, the more questions get
> answered, and by extension, the more newbies that are helped.

Don't you really see where you go wrong, I find it offending to have to
think I'm engineerd to become a Guru, this is manipulative to the extend
of discusting.

> My impression is that Chris, Chuck and the other gurus don't mind
> answering questions, per se.  They just would like the requesters
> to do a little homework before they ask, that's all.

I propose a cygwin-gurus.

> > > == Footnotes ==
> > >
> > > [1] - One other way to do this is to include a link to the ESR essay
> > > in the confirmation e-mail subscribers receive, but I *doubt* very
> > > much that most would take the time to read it then.  However, if
> > > we instead wait to ask them when they're focused on getting their
> > > first question answered, we can hopefully start teaching them the
> > > fine art of asking questions.
> >
> > Is that what this list is for?
>
> No, but surely if *everyone* on this list (gurus and newbies alike)
> asked questions the "smart way" we'd all reap the benefits of a
> better and more fruitful mailing list.

If you send them to redhat university they wouldn't even have to ask smart
questions, they would know smart answers upfront and where a hat (probably
red) with the letters Guru on it.

> Thanks for your comments, you've helped me sharpen my thinking on
> this somewhat controversial topic.

Thank you for your comments.

Raphael who is now somewhat upset.


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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Jim George]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Raphael" <raphael@oninet.pt>
Cc: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"


On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:25:50PM +0100, Raphael wrote:
> > On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > Moderation? Don´t start me on that one. In the end Moderation only
> > resolves in new not cygwin lists that will attrackt trolls to the cygwin
> > list. I'm glad to eleborate if this is not clear.
>
> No need to elaborate, I'm well aware of the "double-edged sword"
> aspects of moderation.  Besides, if you read again what I wrote,
> I'm referring to a very limited form of moderation, which only
> affects the initial post made by all subscribers.  That hardly seems
> like a detail to "get started" on.

> Yes it is, becouse your not talking about a first or second posting but
> about access to the list through a quiz. If I get this wrong then excuse
> me.

> > Who asked them to school new users? Now don't get me wrong, anybody's
> > contribution is valuable and special. But if people think they have to
> > school fellow list members and are irritated by that it might be a good
> > idea for them to take some time of?
>
> Well, you're right, no one *asked* them.  However, as ESR's essay
> points out, community standards don't come for free.  They have to
> be enforced and communicated (what I referred to as "schooling"),
> and the problem with many new users that participate in public
> mailing lists is that they don't realize that a certain standard
> of conduct is expected of them in order to keep the mailing list
> working for the common good.

> Include The Aunt Emily Faq in the welcome faq I would suggest, I myself
> hate forinstance the wellbehaved educaters on this list who do not seem to
> understand how the quoting machanisme works and persist in giving answers
> above a message. But this is not the issue here.

And of course you realise that that means someone is going to comment on it
;)
The problem is that there are so few good mail clients for cygwin, indeed I
can only think of pine and sylpheed (the latter I'm only just compiling at
the moment).  Also there seems to be no standard as far as whether you
answer above or below a previous mail...I've been involved in linux,
windows, database, and mac mailing lists and they all have different
beliefs!  One to set a standard?

> Now granted, you may argue that there are other waysto familiarize
> new users with the standards of conduct.  You seem to prefer the
> FAQ.  I guess I prefer the immediate feedback provided by auto-reply
> to initial posters.

> I can accept that.

> > [snip]
> > I subscibed
> > using the site and remeber clearly that there was somekind of incentive
> > there and if I'm not mistaking the manual states something alike. What a
> > lot of people forget is that for a newbee it is not always clear where
to
> > find the right answer or faq.
>
> Absolutely, I agree with you, it's not always clear.  In fact, I
> think you may have just corroborated what I've observed for a long
> time; information is only *useful* when you are *expecting* to
> receive it.
>
> Trying to tell a new user how to ask questions in the subscription
> confirmation is *not* effective because it is *ignored*.  The new
> user isn't *ready* to hear about "how to ask smart questions"
> immediately upon subscribing.  The information is irrelevant at
> that moment, since they're *not* asking a question at that particular
> moment.  However, they will be more receptive when they are trying
> to get help for the first time; this is the correct time to tell
> them.

> I'm aware of social engineering, I also aware that this can be overdone,
> IMHO you will just create a disappointment, somebody mailing for the first
> time denying an answer (or at least an answer where they didn't ask for)
> will disencourage the use of cygwin.

> The moment they're ready to ask their first question on the list
> is *precisely* the moment you want to inform them of the minimum
> requirements that they are expected to meet.  This the reason why
> I think blocking first-time posts and automatically informing the
> requester they can re-submit their question (after they've read
> ESR's essay) is better.
>
> > Well as you noticed I think it's better to give 'hardworking people'
their
> > own list where they will not be bothered. I could even agree to make
that
> > accesible by an exame ;-)
>
> Well, I don't agree, but of course, you have the right to your
> opinion :-P
>
> Seriously, though, I don't think that you want to separate newbies
> because then, newbies will probably never become gurus.  We *want*
> more gurus, because the more gurus we have, the more questions get
> answered, and by extension, the more newbies that are helped.

> Don't you really see where you go wrong, I find it offending to have to
> think I'm engineerd to become a Guru, this is manipulative to the extend
> of discusting.

> My impression is that Chris, Chuck and the other gurus don't mind
> answering questions, per se.  They just would like the requesters
> to do a little homework before they ask, that's all.

> I propose a cygwin-gurus.
Agreed and a cygwin-dummies (where I will while away the rest of my hours
replying to mails above and below and in between as my mood takes me :) ).


> > > == Footnotes ==
> > >
> > > [1] - One other way to do this is to include a link to the ESR essay
> > > in the confirmation e-mail subscribers receive, but I *doubt* very
> > > much that most would take the time to read it then.  However, if
> > > we instead wait to ask them when they're focused on getting their
> > > first question answered, we can hopefully start teaching them the
> > > fine art of asking questions.
> >
> > Is that what this list is for?
>
> No, but surely if *everyone* on this list (gurus and newbies alike)
> asked questions the "smart way" we'd all reap the benefits of a
> better and more fruitful mailing list.

> If you send them to redhat university they wouldn't even have to ask smart
> questions, they would know smart answers upfront and where a hat (probably
> red) with the letters Guru on it.
Now you want to start a 'who is the best distribution' war?

> Thanks for your comments, you've helped me sharpen my thinking on
> this somewhat controversial topic.

> Thank you for your comments.

> Raphael who is now somewhat upset.
Cheer up I've finished too.



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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Raphael]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Jim George wrote:

Raphael:

> > Include The Aunt Emily Faq in the welcome faq I would suggest, I myself
> > hate forinstance the wellbehaved educaters on this list who do not seem to
> > understand how the quoting machanisme works and persist in giving answers
> > above a message. But this is not the issue here.
>
> And of course you realise that that means someone is going to comment on it
> ;)
> The problem is that there are so few good mail clients for cygwin, indeed I
> can only think of pine and sylpheed (the latter I'm only just compiling at
> the moment).  Also there seems to be no standard as far as whether you
> answer above or below a previous mail...I've been involved in linux,
> windows, database, and mac mailing lists and they all have different
> beliefs!  One to set a standard?

The standard very well exist and is not set by any warez, for more
informaition check http://www.faqs.org

> > I propose a cygwin-gurus.

> Agreed and a cygwin-dummies (where I will while away the rest of my hours
> replying to mails above and below and in between as my mood takes me :) ).

Nobody is able to stop you replying the way you want. Fact is the
readability of your message greatly promotes your message, I myself skip
message that I have to read upside down.

> > No, but surely if *everyone* on this list (gurus and newbies alike)
> > asked questions the "smart way" we'd all reap the benefits of a
> > better and more fruitful mailing list.
>
> > If you send them to redhat university they wouldn't even have to ask smart
> > questions, they would know smart answers upfront and where a hat (probably
> > red) with the letters Guru on it.

> Now you want to start a 'who is the best distribution' war?

You mean MicroSoft? (Raphael ducking!)

> > Thanks for your comments, you've helped me sharpen my thinking on
> > this somewhat controversial topic.
>
> > Thank you for your comments.

> > Raphael who is now somewhat upset.
> Cheer up I've finished too.

OK ;-)


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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Dr. Wayne Keen]

I am going to ask a question which will probably invite a "Wayne,
that a stupid idea because ..."

For those who have a problem with the volume of this list, here is
what I do.  I am not a member of the list.  I use the archives, i.e.
every machine I have has:

http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/

in its favorites list.  I think of the archives as a magazine.  I read
what I want, don't read those topics I am too stupid to understand.
(Narrows the list considerably, let me tell you ;-)

I think by the way I came to disagree with the "there are no dumb
questions" idea when I watched 10's of people report to the list,
each like they were the first, "Did you know that cygwin1.dll
is infected with a virus????"

Have a great day folks,
Wayne (notso) Keen

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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Raphael]

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dockeen wrote:

> Warning - the following is a (1/4) baked idea sure to draw automatic
> weapons fire.
>
> Instead of a second list, perhaps a second tier of community members
> might take it on themselves to pseudo-officially handle the newbie
> questions.
> Chris and the others can handle the big questions and know that
> they do not have to jump in to catch an unanswered question.
>
> Probably more stupid babbling from Wayne..
>
> Wayne Keen
>
This is not a bad idea, we could try, I'm willing to put in my two pennies
worth whenever I can. But I thin the volume of the list really asks for
another solution and there is no reason why your proposition wouldn't work
if there would be two different lists.


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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Raphael]

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:

>      "Once you've read the essay, please take this quiz [link to
>      quiz would be here]; passing this 3-question quiz will demonstrate
>      you've read the essay, and thus will be ready to re-post your
>      question.  Don't worry, the quiz is a *very* simple multiple-choice
>      quiz to test that you've read the essay.  Messages posted from
>      your account will be allowed only once you've passed the quiz."

4. Newbees will be discouraged to use the list. as there is no other list
sooner or later other lists will appear.

5. Misinformed people (pre-trolls) who never the less will be able to
solve the quiz (if not publishing the right answers) will visit the list
with weird information and start flames.



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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Dario Alcocer]

On Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:05:29PM -0400, Dockeen wrote:
> Instead of a second list, perhaps a second tier of community members
> might take it on themselves to pseudo-officially handle the newbie
> questions.

I don't advocate a second-tier of newbie supporters.  My proposal
would *still* rely on the mailing list at large to answer questions.
The quality of the questions would be better, however, hopefully
leading to a more satisfying situation for both newbies and experienced
users alike.

Let me explain how my "pseudo-moderation" of first-time posters
would work in practice.  Hopefully the subsequent examples will
help clarify my proposal.

OK, here's my first example:

FIRST EXAMPLE:
-------------

1. New user encounters a problem using Cygwin, refers to Cygwin
   home-page, finds mailing list link, and subscribes to mailing
   list.

2. New user sends their question to the mailing list:

   "How come you guys don't include XEmacs?  Where do I get it?  I
   need it so I can finish my programming project by Friday.  PLEASE
   HELP ME NOW!!!"

3. The ezmlm mailing list manager gets his e-mail, and before sending
   it to the rest of the subscribers, looks his address up in a
   database of some sort.  The software will determine that this
   is the first post from this subscriber, so instead of sending
   the message on to the mailing list, it will instead send him the
   following message:

   <first-time-poster-message>
     "Hello, and thanks for using Cygwin!  We've noticed that this
     is your first post to the list, and we'd like to make you aware
     of the correct way to ask questions on this list.  We need to
     do this because our list is a very high-volume list, and in
     order to manage the volume, we ask that subscribers follow a
     few simple rules before they begin participating on the list.
     The rules are contained in Eric Raymond's 'How to Ask Questions
     the Smart Way.' [link would be here]  Please read the essay
     in its *entirety*.  Not doing so will only delay getting your
     question answered."

     "Once you've read the essay, please take this quiz [link to
     quiz would be here]; passing this 3-question quiz will demonstrate
     you've read the essay, and thus will be ready to re-post your
     question.  Don't worry, the quiz is a *very* simple multiple-choice
     quiz to test that you've read the essay.  Messages posted from
     your account will be allowed only once you've passed the quiz."
   </first-time-poster-message>

4. The new user will read the "first-time poster" message (see
   above) and realize he needs to Search the Fine Web before asking
   his particular question.  A Google search will then quickly
   reveal that he must run the XEmacs Cygwin installer to install
   his software.

5. At this point, the new user doesn't bother re-posting his, since
   his question has been answered.

So, this first example shows the following:

   * No list traffic is generated from his question.

   * He learns how to ask questions on this mailing list in the
     future.

   * The software he wants gets installed.

Here's my second example:

SECOND EXAMPLE:
--------------

a. New user encounters problem, and mails question to list:

   "Hey, I found that the MumbleFratz package is crashing.  I'm
   stuck and I need this working now so I can finish my final project
   which is due next week.  PLEASE HELP ME!!!"

b. The ezmlm mailing list manager gets his e-mail, and determines
   that this is the first post from this subscriber;  this results
   in him getting the "first-time poster" message (see above for
   contents of this message.)

c. New user reads "first-time poster" message, then reads the
   ESR essay as instructed, and passes the quiz.

d. Because he read the essay, he now realizes that he must reformulate
   his question, removing the emotional plea and including specific
   clues that might help others determine a fix for his problem:

   "I found that if I do a find using the MumbleFratz package,
   and I try to pipe the results to Bass-o-matic, I get a core
   dump (core dump is on my FTP site.)"

e. He re-posts his reformulated question; this time, ezmlm notices
   that he passed his quiz, and enables his e-mail address for
   posting.

f. The mailing list members now see his reformulated question, and
   several offer to help, eventually arriving at a fix for his
   problem.

So, this second example shows the following:

   * No list traffic is generated from his first question, which
     improves the signal to noise ratio.

   * His question gets answered, not ignored, since he now knows
     how to ask "smart questions."

   * He learns how to ask questions on this mailing list in the
     future.

I hope the examples help clarify what I was proposing.

I'm still reading up on ezmlm, so I don't have anything nailed down
yet.  However, once I do, rest assured I will get further input
from everyone before I even try to run this past Chris Faylor.
(He's got enough to do without hearing from another joker like me
;-)  BTW, I'm not the mailing list admin anyway, so I can only
propose my solution, after some research on my part.

-- 
Dario Alcocer -- Sr. Software Developer, Helix Digital Inc.
alcocer@helixdigital.com -- http://www.helixdigital.com

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Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"

[Dockeen]

Warning - the following is a (1/4) baked idea sure to draw automatic
weapons fire.

Instead of a second list, perhaps a second tier of community members
might take it on themselves to pseudo-officially handle the newbie
questions.
Chris and the others can handle the big questions and know that
they do not have to jump in to catch an unanswered question.

Probably more stupid babbling from Wayne..

Wayne Keen


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