RE: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

RE: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Michael D. Crawford]

Another issue is the number of clients served by a windows host running cygwin. 
  I remember that was an issue for O'Reilly for the web server they used to sell 
for Windows - non-server versions of Windows were only licensed to serve a few 
clients of any sort, and server versions of windows that could have any number 
of users came bundled with IIS, so O'Reilly was unable to sell to people who 
already had a bundled web server.

If somebody's running cygwin on a machine that's only licensed as a desktop 
version of windows, and they have a lot of clients for apache, postgresql, ssh 
or whatnot, they're likely in violation of the windows license.

I couldn't say whether the cygwin developers could be held liable by microsoft 
for not enforcing the desktop client limit.

Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and Consulting
http://www.goingware.com/
crawford@goingware.com

     Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow.


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Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Elizabeth Barham]

This whole thing seems kind of iffy in regards to Microsoft's
position. While Microsoft has some authority, consumers do too and
Windows XP's EULA may violate some consumer rights (I don't know of
any off hand, though). But even if it doesn't violate any at the
moment, it violates what I consider my own "consumer rights" - I have
the right to run any program I want to on any computer I own,
including Microsoft Operating Systems.

And what is this EULA anyway? If I purchase software, do I or do I not
own the software? And can I or can I not do anything I want to with it
- I mean, it's mine and they sold it to me. Or am I "leasing" the
software from someone?

It's one thing for an EULA to say, "You may have one copy of this
piece of software running on at most one computer at any time," but
another thing for it to say what I can use the software for.

Elizabeth

"Michael D. Crawford" <crawford@goingware.com> writes:

> Another issue is the number of clients served by a windows host
> running cygwin.
>   I remember that was an issue for O'Reilly for the web server they
> used to sell for Windows - non-server versions of Windows were only
> licensed to serve a few clients of any sort, and server versions of
> windows that could have any number of users came bundled with IIS, so
> O'Reilly was unable to sell to people who already had a bundled web
> server.
> 
> If somebody's running cygwin on a machine that's only licensed as a
> desktop version of windows, and they have a lot of clients for apache,
> postgresql, ssh or whatnot, they're likely in violation of the windows
> license.
> 
> I couldn't say whether the cygwin developers could be held liable by
> microsoft for not enforcing the desktop client limit.
> 
> Michael D. Crawford GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and
> Consulting http://www.goingware.com/ crawford@goingware.com
> 
>      Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow.
> 
> 
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RE: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Bruce Williams]

>
> And what is this EULA anyway? I..

The "smoking gun" on the future intentions issue of the states lawsuit ,
IMHO :-)

Bruce Williams

Microsoft is sort of a mixture between the Borg and the
Ferengi. Combine the Borg marketing with Ferengi networking...
                                        [Andre Beck in dcouln]



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Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Charles Wilson]

Elizabeth Barham wrote:


> It's one thing for an EULA to say, "You may have one copy of this
> piece of software running on at most one computer at any time," but
> another thing for it to say what I can use the software for.


Welcome to the brave new world where laws are written by 
media-conglomerates.  Fight for your rights: http://www.digitalconsumer.org/

--Chuck


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Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Randall R Schulz]

Elizabeth,

Most commercial, non-open-source software is not sold outright, only the 
right to use it is.

While it's true that not all contracts and license agreements are legal and 
/ or enforceable, if you agreed to it, which you had to do to accomplish 
installation, then unless you bring some legal action, you're bound by it.

Sure, the computer is yours to do with as you please, but applications that 
run under an operating system are not self-contained and do not stand 
alone--they make use of the OS. An apt analogy might be a rental agreement 
between a tenant and a landlord. Both parties have some rights, and the 
landlord's rights include the right to place certain restrictions on what 
the tenants may do within the rented property.

I am not a lawyer (with all that implies about the foregoing), but in many 
ways, the law has a logic of its own. It happens to be a logic that often 
seems confusing or even bewildering to lay people and most especially to 
very logicall types such as engineers and scientists, but that's how it is.

I know one thing, I'll never switch to XP. The thought of entering into a 
subscription relationship with Microsoft for something as critical as the 
OS on which I rely so heavily is simply unacceptable to me. When I move on 
from Windows 2000 for whatever reason, it'll be to Linux (or Darwin, 
Solaris, *BSD or possibly even MacOS on suitable hardware). Frankly, I'll 
be happy to turn my back on MS operating systems. Were it not for a former 
employer's demands (and Cygwin), I wouldn't be using Windows in the first 
place.

Randall Schulz
Mountain View, CA US


At 18:04 2002-04-21, Elizabeth Barham wrote:
>This whole thing seems kind of iffy in regards to Microsoft's position. 
>While Microsoft has some authority, consumers do too and Windows XP's EULA 
>may violate some consumer rights (I don't know of any off hand, though). 
>But even if it doesn't violate any at the moment, it violates what I 
>consider my own "consumer rights" - I have the right to run any program I 
>want to on any computer I own, including Microsoft Operating Systems.
>
>And what is this EULA anyway? If I purchase software, do I or do I not own 
>the software? And can I or can I not do anything I want to with it - I 
>mean, it's mine and they sold it to me. Or am I "leasing" the software 
>from someone?
>
>It's one thing for an EULA to say, "You may have one copy of this piece of 
>software running on at most one computer at any time," but another thing 
>for it to say what I can use the software for.
>
>Elizabeth


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Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Chris January]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Barham" <soggytrousers@yahoo.com>
To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 2:04 AM
Subject: Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?


> This whole thing seems kind of iffy in regards to Microsoft's
> position. While Microsoft has some authority, consumers do too and
> Windows XP's EULA may violate some consumer rights (I don't know of
> any off hand, though). But even if it doesn't violate any at the
> moment, it violates what I consider my own "consumer rights" - I have
> the right to run any program I want to on any computer I own,
> including Microsoft Operating Systems.
>
> And what is this EULA anyway? If I purchase software, do I or do I not
> own the software? And can I or can I not do anything I want to with it
> - I mean, it's mine and they sold it to me. Or am I "leasing" the
> software from someone?
>
> It's one thing for an EULA to say, "You may have one copy of this
> piece of software running on at most one computer at any time," but
> another thing for it to say what I can use the software for.
EU law says:
(3) In accordance with the provisions of the Berne Convention for the
protection of Literary and Artistic Works, the provisions of this Article
may not be interpreted in such a way as to allow its application to be used
in a manner which unreasonably prejudices the right holder's legitimate
interests or conflicts with a normal exploitation of the computer program.

I would say a clause that prevents me from running sshd to allow me to
remotely adminster my computer conflicts with a normal exploitation of the
computer program (Windows XP).

Chris





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RE: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> The following excerpt is from Brian Livingston's 'Windows Manager'
> column, 18Mar2002:
> http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/02/03/18/020318oplivingston.xml
>
> I'm wondering if, in addition to possibly forbidding the use of VNC,
> this might also forbid installing Cygwin on WinXP and then using a
> remote connection to the WinXP PC with Cygwin's telnetd, rlogind,
> rshd, sshd or any X-Windows type of interface, unless you also have
> a WinXP license for the computer at the other end of the connection.
>
> I know this might be considered OT, but I thought it was worth
> raising the issue.
>

The following excerpt is from a speech delivered by John Patrick Henry to the
Second Virginia Convention, convened at St. John's Church in Richmond, on March
23, 1775:

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains
and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take;
but as for me, give me Cygwin or give me death!"

To the best of my recollection anyway.

--
Gary R. Van Sickle
Brewer.  Patriot.
"The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come."


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RE: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Bruce Williams]

No, Microsoft in it's wisdom loads workstations with tons of insecure
'server-type' code... and we are talking services ran by default! The users
are considered 'too dumb' to do more than point and click, but they are
supposed to config all this crap if they don't want to become anybodies
zombie... go figure! Best I can come up with is it is 'just there' for the
people who want it, but are too clueless to get and install it, or even know
WHAT they want!

Microsoft knows what software you want/need mindset... "where do you want to
go?"


Bruce Williams

Microsoft is sort of a mixture between the Borg and the
Ferengi. Combine the Borg marketing with Ferengi networking...
                                        [Andre Beck in dcouln]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com
> [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
> Of Sam Edge
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 4:18 AM
> To: cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?
>
>
> You wrote in
> <FC169E059D1A0442A04C40F86D9BA7600C5EB1@itdomain003.itdomain.net.au>
> in gmane.os.cygwin on Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:34:16 +1000:
>
> > IIS runs just fine here (XP Pro). It also runs fine on NT 4
> workstation
> > and 2000 workstation.
>
> Huh? I thought it'd only run on the "Server" version. That shows how
> much /I/ know!
>
> --
> Sam Edge
>
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>



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RE: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Bruce Williams]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com
> [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
> Of Doug Wyatt
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 3:05 AM
> To: cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?
>
>
>
>
> > You wrote in <4471243492.20020421095401@familiehaase.de>
> > in gmane.os.cygwin on Sun, 21 Apr 2002 09:54:01 +0200:
> >
> > > > Microsoft's XP license agreement says, "Except as
> otherwise permitted
> > > > by the NetMeeting, Remote Assistance, and Remote
> Desktop features
> > > > described below, you may not use the Product to permit
> any Device to
> > > > use, access, display, or run other executable software
> residing on the
> > > > Workstation Computer, nor may you permit any Device to
> use, access,
> > > > display, or run the Product or Product's user
> interface, unless the Device
> > > > has a separate license for the Product."
> > >
> > > > That means using any software other than Microsoft's to
> view an XP
> > > > desktop from Windows 2000 or any other operating system
> would violate
> > > > the company's license agreement, in case you care.
> > >
> > > That is not correct, you can use whatever software you
> want to as long
> > > as your 'Device' has a XP license.
> >
> > I've not read the full licence for XP but this passage taken alone
> > would suggest that you need an extra licence for a monitor.
> After all,
> > it's a separate device that displays the software and the UI. ;-)
> >
> > --
> > Sam Edge
> >
> Or, Web servers which download Java, Javascript and ASP's.
>
> What concerns me is the the apparent stricture on any non-MS
> remote access to one's own PC via sshd!  I guess this would
> even make PCAnywhere connections from a non-XP host illegal
> w/o an additional XP license.
>
> Doug

How about a "Device" - Linux/Apache server "using and accessing"
Netscape/Mozilla and -horrors- using the "user interface"?

But, wait - I know what this is about - it is about INNOVATION!

The Microsoft legal department has come up with the perfect legal firewall!
Why have us tech people deal with security issues, when there are thousands
of hungry lawyers available? Hacking is in violation of the license!

Bruce Williams

Microsoft is sort of a mixture between the Borg and the
Ferengi. Combine the Borg marketing with Ferengi networking...
                                        [Andre Beck in dcouln]



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Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Sam Edge]

You wrote in
<FC169E059D1A0442A04C40F86D9BA7600C5EB1@itdomain003.itdomain.net.au>
in gmane.os.cygwin on Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:34:16 +1000:

> IIS runs just fine here (XP Pro). It also runs fine on NT 4 workstation
> and 2000 workstation. 

Huh? I thought it'd only run on the "Server" version. That shows how
much /I/ know!

-- 
Sam Edge

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RE: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Robert Collins]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Edge [mailto:sam_edgeZZZ@hotmail.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 8:31 PM
> To: cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?
> 
> 
> You wrote in <3CC24897.10238.884BE175@localhost>
> in gmane.os.cygwin on Sun, 21 Apr 2002 05:05:27 -0500:
> 
> > Or, Web servers which download Java, Javascript and ASP's.
> 
> Download is okay - the code is running on the remote machine 
> and needs a local (Java/.NET/ActiveX/WSH) licence to run there. 
> 
> I think you mean server-side DHTML. (Of course you can't run 
> IIS on workstation versions of Win32 anyway.)The licence 

IIS runs just fine here (XP Pro). It also runs fine on NT 4 workstation
and 2000 workstation. 

Rob

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Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Sam Edge]

You wrote in <3CC24897.10238.884BE175@localhost>
in gmane.os.cygwin on Sun, 21 Apr 2002 05:05:27 -0500:

> Or, Web servers which download Java, Javascript and ASP's.

Download is okay - the code is running on the remote machine and needs
a local (Java/.NET/ActiveX/WSH) licence to run there. 

I think you mean server-side DHTML. (Of course you can't run IIS on
workstation versions of Win32 anyway.)The licence agreement does seem
to suggest that you can't run CGI or PHP or other server-side code on
Apache on XP Pro.  Linux, anyone? ;-)

> What concerns me is the the apparent stricture on any non-MS
> remote access to one's own PC via sshd!  I guess this would
> even make PCAnywhere connections from a non-XP host illegal
> w/o an additional XP license.

Absolutely. From a straightforward reading it precludes peer-to-peer
file sharing too.

(Anyway, we're drifting off-topic so I'll stop.)

-- 
Sam Edge

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Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Doug Wyatt]

> You wrote in <4471243492.20020421095401@familiehaase.de>
> in gmane.os.cygwin on Sun, 21 Apr 2002 09:54:01 +0200:
> 
> > > Microsoft's XP license agreement says, "Except as otherwise permitted
> > > by the NetMeeting, Remote Assistance, and Remote Desktop features
> > > described below, you may not use the Product to permit any Device to
> > > use, access, display, or run other executable software residing on the
> > > Workstation Computer, nor may you permit any Device to use, access,
> > > display, or run the Product or Product's user interface, unless the Device
> > > has a separate license for the Product."
> > 
> > > That means using any software other than Microsoft's to view an XP
> > > desktop from Windows 2000 or any other operating system would violate
> > > the company's license agreement, in case you care.
> > 
> > That is not correct, you can use whatever software you want to as long
> > as your 'Device' has a XP license.
> 
> I've not read the full licence for XP but this passage taken alone
> would suggest that you need an extra licence for a monitor. After all,
> it's a separate device that displays the software and the UI. ;-)
> 
> -- 
> Sam Edge
> 
Or, Web servers which download Java, Javascript and ASP's.

What concerns me is the the apparent stricture on any non-MS
remote access to one's own PC via sshd!  I guess this would
even make PCAnywhere connections from a non-XP host illegal
w/o an additional XP license.

Doug



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Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Sam Edge]

You wrote in <4471243492.20020421095401@familiehaase.de>
in gmane.os.cygwin on Sun, 21 Apr 2002 09:54:01 +0200:

> > Microsoft's XP license agreement says, "Except as otherwise permitted
> > by the NetMeeting, Remote Assistance, and Remote Desktop features
> > described below, you may not use the Product to permit any Device to
> > use, access, display, or run other executable software residing on the
> > Workstation Computer, nor may you permit any Device to use, access,
> > display, or run the Product or Product's user interface, unless the Device
> > has a separate license for the Product."
> 
> > That means using any software other than Microsoft's to view an XP
> > desktop from Windows 2000 or any other operating system would violate
> > the company's license agreement, in case you care.
> 
> That is not correct, you can use whatever software you want to as long
> as your 'Device' has a XP license.

I've not read the full licence for XP but this passage taken alone
would suggest that you need an extra licence for a monitor. After all,
it's a separate device that displays the software and the UI. ;-)

-- 
Sam Edge

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Re: Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Gerrit P. Haase]

Hallo Doug,

> The following excerpt is from Brian Livingston's 'Windows Manager'
> column, 18Mar2002:
> http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/02/03/18/020318oplivingston.xml

> I'm wondering if, in addition to possibly forbidding the use of VNC,
> this might also forbid installing Cygwin on WinXP and then using a
> remote connection to the WinXP PC with Cygwin's telnetd, rlogind,
> rshd, sshd or any X-Windows type of interface, unless you also have
> a WinXP license for the computer at the other end of the connection.

Cygwin is legal under XP.  But it is illegal to connect from a remote
Device if you don't have a XP license for that remote Device. That's it.
And that is true for every executable which runs on a XP workstation.
But hey, who wants to use a workstation as server?
Lets wait what new tweaks they write into the new .NET Server license;)

> I know this might be considered OT, but I thought it was worth
> raising the issue.

I don't think that it is OT.

> From the article:

[...]

> Microsoft's XP license agreement says, "Except as otherwise permitted
> by the NetMeeting, Remote Assistance, and Remote Desktop features
> described below, you may not use the Product to permit any Device to
> use, access, display, or run other executable software residing on the
> Workstation Computer, nor may you permit any Device to use, access,
> display, or run the Product or Product's user interface, unless the Device
> has a separate license for the Product."

> That means using any software other than Microsoft's to view an XP
> desktop from Windows 2000 or any other operating system would violate
> the company's license agreement, in case you care.

That is not correct, you can use whatever software you want to as long
as your 'Device' has a XP license.

[...]


Gerrit
-- 
=^..^=


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Is Cygwin legal under Windows XP?

[Doug Wyatt]

The following excerpt is from Brian Livingston's 'Windows Manager'
column, 18Mar2002:
http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/02/03/18/020318oplivingston.xml

I'm wondering if, in addition to possibly forbidding the use of VNC,
this might also forbid installing Cygwin on WinXP and then using a
remote connection to the WinXP PC with Cygwin's telnetd, rlogind,
rshd, sshd or any X-Windows type of interface, unless you also have
a WinXP license for the computer at the other end of the connection.

I know this might be considered OT, but I thought it was worth
raising the issue.

Regards,
Doug
~~~~~~~~~~~~
From the article:

Reader Frank Brown sent me a completely different concern about XP,
relating to VNC (Virtual Network Computing), a free remote-access
application I described last week (see "Your virtual network," InfoWorld,
March 11).

Microsoft's XP license agreement says, "Except as otherwise permitted
by the NetMeeting, Remote Assistance, and Remote Desktop features
described below, you may not use the Product to permit any Device to
use, access, display, or run other executable software residing on the
Workstation Computer, nor may you permit any Device to use, access,
display, or run the Product or Product's user interface, unless the Device
has a separate license for the Product."

That means using any software other than Microsoft's to view an XP
desktop from Windows 2000 or any other operating system would violate
the company's license agreement, in case you care.

"I use VNC extensively to manage several hundred desktops daily," Brown
says.  "So for me this is a big deal, and a good reason to stay away from
XP until I see  significant value added compared to Win 2000. So far I
haven't."



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