RE: Default compiler behaviour for b19

RE: Default compiler behaviour for b19

[Colin Peters]

Fergus Henderson[SMTP:fjh@cs.mu.OZ.AU] wrote:
>Geoffrey Noer <noer@cygnus.com> writes:
>
>>Anthony Wesley wrote:
>>> 
>>> Perhaps I am misreading the comments on the gnuwin32 home page, but it
>>> looks like Cygnus are proposing to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" generate
>>> native win32 binaries by default and not link with cygwin.dll. To
>>> compile UNIX-ish tools and link with the cygwin.dll library you will
>>> have to supply an extra command line option.
>>
>>Yes, and this may still happen at some point down the road.
>
>I have to agree with Anthony Wesley that this would be a Bad Idea.

At first I was going to say that either default would be fine if
you could override the default with an environment variable, and
override the environment variable or default with a command line
option. This would give the user maximum flexibility and
convenience.

However, I thought about it a bit, and I have to agree that
'gcc' should by default have the compatibility layer enabled. I
still think you should be able to override the default in the
way above though.

The reason I think gcc should, by default, be UNIX is simply
that all extant shell scripts which call gcc, without any
other options, are basically UNIX-centric. If you are running
one of these shell scripts then you are running in a UNIX-like
environment. The shell script will no doubt include other UNIX
isms. New scripts written with the Win32 port in mind can
include an option to behave natively, but making gcc act
differently by default can only break older scripts and offer
very little benefit to new programmers.

Of course one can, and should, be able to recompile gcc to
target Win32 native with no UNIX compatibility layer, with
the understanding that this retargeted gcc, like any gcc
targeted at a non-UNIX machine, will not always behave as
expected by UNIX scripts or when compiling UNIX code.

Well, that's my opinion, for what it's worth. :-/

Colin.

-- Colin Peters - Saga Univ. Dept. of Information Science
-- colin@bird.fu.is.saga-u.ac.jp - finger for PGP public key
-- http://www.fu.is.saga-u.ac.jp/~colin/index.html
-- http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/6162/

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Re: Default compiler behaviour for b19

[M. Halpin]

	I think that the default should be to link to cygwin.dll, however
an option should be available for creating independent binaries (I.E. you
can make independent binaries, it's just not default).
	Writing the compatibility level would almost be impossible if
programs did not default to cygwin.dll, plus updates would require you to
recompile everything. And that would be a pain in the ...

	- SJ

On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, AECEULA, QUEST Team wrote:

> The idea of generating native win32 binaries by default (i think) is a
> great advance, because you can make your programs to be independient.
> It's true that GCC comes from Unix, but if you can make native win32
> binaries with it, it's a very powerful tool. And i want to have it !
> 
> Andrey A. Kulaga wrote:
> > 
> > It's very important to me to have possibility produce native win32 binaries.
> > It doesn't matter, whether this option will be default. I like GNU tools, but i
> > want my code be portable between compilers. That's why l'm using Minimalist
> > package by Colin Peters (thanks for them).
> > 
> > --------------------
> > > Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 11:23:31 +1000
> > > From: Anthony Wesley <awesley@acquerra.com.au>
> > > Reply-To: awesley@mail.acquerra.com.au
> > >
> > > Perhaps I am misreading the comments on the gnuwin32 home page, but it
> > > looks like Cygnus are proposing to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" generate
> > > native win32 binaries by default and not link with cygwin.dll. To
> > > compile UNIX-ish tools and link with the cygwin.dll library you will
> > > have to supply an extra command line option.
> > >
> > > This seems silly to me, and the wrong way around. After all, gcc and all
> > > the nice tools and development environment came from the UNIX land, so
> > > surely generating UNIX-ish binaries should be the default, making
> > > porting UNIX applications and tools the native mode, whereas generating
> > > pure win32 binaries should be the "foreign" mode.
> > >
> > > It would be really strange to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" not work as
> > > expected by people coming from the UNIX world. I realise that this
> > > behavious could be covered up (eg have an environment variable to select
> > > the mode, or put it in the gcc compiler-options file) but I believe that
> > > it would still be the wrong attitude by Cygnus to do this.
> > >
> > > Just my AUS $0.0215 worth .. :-)
> > >
> > > Anthony
> > > -
> > > For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
> > > "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help".
> > 
> > -
> > For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
> > "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help".
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> 

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Re: Default compiler behaviour for b19

[Earnie Boyd]

I started looking at gnu-win32 because it was Unix compatible.  Leave the
default the way it is but allow for an environment variable to change the
default behaviour.  That way you can have the best of both worlds.

On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, AECEULA, QUEST Team wrote:

> The idea of generating native win32 binaries by default (i think) is a
> great advance, because you can make your programs to be independient.
> It's true that GCC comes from Unix, but if you can make native win32
> binaries with it, it's a very powerful tool. And i want to have it !
> 
> Andrey A. Kulaga wrote:
> > 
> > It's very important to me to have possibility produce native win32 binaries.
> > It doesn't matter, whether this option will be default. I like GNU tools, but i
> > want my code be portable between compilers. That's why l'm using Minimalist
> > package by Colin Peters (thanks for them).
> > 
> > --------------------
> > > Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 11:23:31 +1000
> > > From: Anthony Wesley <awesley@acquerra.com.au>
> > > Reply-To: awesley@mail.acquerra.com.au
> > >
> > > Perhaps I am misreading the comments on the gnuwin32 home page, but it
> > > looks like Cygnus are proposing to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" generate
> > > native win32 binaries by default and not link with cygwin.dll. To
> > > compile UNIX-ish tools and link with the cygwin.dll library you will
> > > have to supply an extra command line option.
> > >
> > > This seems silly to me, and the wrong way around. After all, gcc and all
> > > the nice tools and development environment came from the UNIX land, so
> > > surely generating UNIX-ish binaries should be the default, making
> > > porting UNIX applications and tools the native mode, whereas generating
> > > pure win32 binaries should be the "foreign" mode.
> > >
> > > It would be really strange to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" not work as
> > > expected by people coming from the UNIX world. I realise that this
> > > behavious could be covered up (eg have an environment variable to select
> > > the mode, or put it in the gcc compiler-options file) but I believe that
> > > it would still be the wrong attitude by Cygnus to do this.
> > >
> > > Just my AUS $0.0215 worth .. :-)
> > >
> > > Anthony
> > > -
> > > For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
> > > "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help".
> > 
> > -
> > For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
> > "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help".
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 \|-----------|/    eaboyd@freenet.columbus.oh.us
--|Earnie Boyd|--       ** text only please **
 /|-----------|\


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Re: Default compiler behaviour for b19

[AECEULA, QUEST Team]

The idea of generating native win32 binaries by default (i think) is a
great advance, because you can make your programs to be independient.
It's true that GCC comes from Unix, but if you can make native win32
binaries with it, it's a very powerful tool. And i want to have it !

Andrey A. Kulaga wrote:
> 
> It's very important to me to have possibility produce native win32 binaries.
> It doesn't matter, whether this option will be default. I like GNU tools, but i
> want my code be portable between compilers. That's why l'm using Minimalist
> package by Colin Peters (thanks for them).
> 
> --------------------
> > Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 11:23:31 +1000
> > From: Anthony Wesley <awesley@acquerra.com.au>
> > Reply-To: awesley@mail.acquerra.com.au
> >
> > Perhaps I am misreading the comments on the gnuwin32 home page, but it
> > looks like Cygnus are proposing to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" generate
> > native win32 binaries by default and not link with cygwin.dll. To
> > compile UNIX-ish tools and link with the cygwin.dll library you will
> > have to supply an extra command line option.
> >
> > This seems silly to me, and the wrong way around. After all, gcc and all
> > the nice tools and development environment came from the UNIX land, so
> > surely generating UNIX-ish binaries should be the default, making
> > porting UNIX applications and tools the native mode, whereas generating
> > pure win32 binaries should be the "foreign" mode.
> >
> > It would be really strange to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" not work as
> > expected by people coming from the UNIX world. I realise that this
> > behavious could be covered up (eg have an environment variable to select
> > the mode, or put it in the gcc compiler-options file) but I believe that
> > it would still be the wrong attitude by Cygnus to do this.
> >
> > Just my AUS $0.0215 worth .. :-)
> >
> > Anthony
> > -
> > For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
> > "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help".
> 
> -
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Re: Default compiler behaviour for b19

[Christian Soeller]

Fergus Henderson <fjh@cs.mu.OZ.AU> writes:

> Having `gcc' behave in this way makes sense only if the first
> goal is totally abandoned.  But I don't see why we can't have both.
> The second goal is not particularly important to me, but if you want
> it, then surely the sensible thing would be to have two different commands
> (even if one is just a shell script that invokes the other with
> an certain option set).  `gcc' should be the unix compatible version.
> Some other name should be chosen for the Win32 compiler.
> 

How about using an environment variable for this? If the variable is
not defined everything behaves as is. E.g., GCCUSECYGWIN=YES means
link by default and GCCUSECYGWIN=NO gives the opposite. So everybody
can decide what his/her default mode is and command line switches can
be used to override. Sounds to me like everybody should be happy ;)

  Christian
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Re: Default compiler behaviour for b19

[Fergus Henderson]

Geoffrey Noer <noer@cygnus.com> writes:

>Anthony Wesley wrote:
>> 
>> Perhaps I am misreading the comments on the gnuwin32 home page, but it
>> looks like Cygnus are proposing to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" generate
>> native win32 binaries by default and not link with cygwin.dll. To
>> compile UNIX-ish tools and link with the cygwin.dll library you will
>> have to supply an extra command line option.
>
>Yes, and this may still happen at some point down the road.

I have to agree with Anthony Wesley that this would be a Bad Idea.

>Perhaps, it depends on whether the goal is a Unix compiler running under
>Win32 or a Win32 compiler running under Win32 with a Unix compatibility
>option...

... or both.
Having `gcc' behave in this way makes sense only if the first
goal is totally abandoned.  But I don't see why we can't have both.
The second goal is not particularly important to me, but if you want
it, then surely the sensible thing would be to have two different commands
(even if one is just a shell script that invokes the other with
an certain option set).  `gcc' should be the unix compatible version.
Some other name should be chosen for the Win32 compiler.

--
Fergus Henderson <fjh@cs.mu.oz.au>   |  "I have always known that the pursuit
WWW: < http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~fjh >   |  of excellence is a lethal habit"
PGP: finger fjh@128.250.37.3         |     -- the last words of T. S. Garp.
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Re: Default compiler behaviour for b19

[Andrey A. Kulaga]

It's very important to me to have possibility produce native win32 binaries.
It doesn't matter, whether this option will be default. I like GNU tools, but i
want my code be portable between compilers. That's why l'm using Minimalist
package by Colin Peters (thanks for them).

--------------------
> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 11:23:31 +1000
> From: Anthony Wesley <awesley@acquerra.com.au>
> Reply-To: awesley@mail.acquerra.com.au
> 
> Perhaps I am misreading the comments on the gnuwin32 home page, but it
> looks like Cygnus are proposing to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" generate
> native win32 binaries by default and not link with cygwin.dll. To
> compile UNIX-ish tools and link with the cygwin.dll library you will
> have to supply an extra command line option.
> 
> This seems silly to me, and the wrong way around. After all, gcc and all
> the nice tools and development environment came from the UNIX land, so
> surely generating UNIX-ish binaries should be the default, making
> porting UNIX applications and tools the native mode, whereas generating
> pure win32 binaries should be the "foreign" mode.
> 
> It would be really strange to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" not work as
> expected by people coming from the UNIX world. I realise that this
> behavious could be covered up (eg have an environment variable to select
> the mode, or put it in the gcc compiler-options file) but I believe that
> it would still be the wrong attitude by Cygnus to do this.
> 
> Just my AUS $0.0215 worth .. :-)
> 
> Anthony
> -
> For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
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Re: Default compiler behaviour for b19

[Sonic Junior]

	I completely agree.

	In b19, I think the default behavior should be to link to cygwin.dll.
However, a command line option would cause it to NOT link to cygwin.dll.

	- SJ

----------
> From: Anthony Wesley <awesley@acquerra.com.au>
> To: gnu-win32@cygnus.com
> Subject: Default compiler behaviour for b19
> Date: Thursday, September 04, 1997 9:23 PM
> 
> Perhaps I am misreading the comments on the gnuwin32 home page, but it
> looks like Cygnus are proposing to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" generate
> native win32 binaries by default and not link with cygwin.dll. To
> compile UNIX-ish tools and link with the cygwin.dll library you will
> have to supply an extra command line option.
> 
> This seems silly to me, and the wrong way around. After all, gcc and all
> the nice tools and development environment came from the UNIX land, so
> surely generating UNIX-ish binaries should be the default, making
> porting UNIX applications and tools the native mode, whereas generating
> pure win32 binaries should be the "foreign" mode.
> 
> It would be really strange to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" not work as
> expected by people coming from the UNIX world. I realise that this
> behavious could be covered up (eg have an environment variable to select
> the mode, or put it in the gcc compiler-options file) but I believe that
> it would still be the wrong attitude by Cygnus to do this.
> 
> Just my AUS $0.0215 worth .. :-)
> 
> Anthony
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> For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
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Re: Default compiler behaviour for b19

[Geoffrey Noer]

Anthony Wesley wrote:
> 
> Perhaps I am misreading the comments on the gnuwin32 home page, but it
> looks like Cygnus are proposing to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" generate
> native win32 binaries by default and not link with cygwin.dll. To
> compile UNIX-ish tools and link with the cygwin.dll library you will
> have to supply an extra command line option.

Yes, and this may still happen at some point down the road.  Beta 19 will
still default to linking in Cygwin.dll.

> This seems silly to me, and the wrong way around. After all, gcc and all
> the nice tools and development environment came from the UNIX land, so
> surely generating UNIX-ish binaries should be the default, making
> porting UNIX applications and tools the native mode, whereas generating
> pure win32 binaries should be the "foreign" mode.

Perhaps, it depends on whether the goal is a Unix compiler running under
Win32 or a Win32 compiler running under Win32 with a Unix compatibility
option...

> It would be really strange to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" not work as
> expected by people coming from the UNIX world.

The auto-append of .exe by gcc is something that has been argued to death
on gcc mailing lists.  I have mixed feelings about it.

-- 
Geoffrey Noer
noer@cygnus.com
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Default compiler behaviour for b19

[Anthony Wesley]

Perhaps I am misreading the comments on the gnuwin32 home page, but it
looks like Cygnus are proposing to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" generate
native win32 binaries by default and not link with cygwin.dll. To
compile UNIX-ish tools and link with the cygwin.dll library you will
have to supply an extra command line option.

This seems silly to me, and the wrong way around. After all, gcc and all
the nice tools and development environment came from the UNIX land, so
surely generating UNIX-ish binaries should be the default, making
porting UNIX applications and tools the native mode, whereas generating
pure win32 binaries should be the "foreign" mode.

It would be really strange to have "gcc -o foo foo.c" not work as
expected by people coming from the UNIX world. I realise that this
behavious could be covered up (eg have an environment variable to select
the mode, or put it in the gcc compiler-options file) but I believe that
it would still be the wrong attitude by Cygnus to do this.

Just my AUS $0.0215 worth .. :-)

Anthony
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