Please stop sending email to corinna-cygwin and lh-cygwin

Please stop sending email to corinna-cygwin and lh-cygwin

[Christopher Faylor]

I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
that they are a spammer.

We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.

Thank you.

cgf

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Re: Please stop sending email to corinna-cygwin and lh-cygwin

[PolarStorm]

Christopher Faylor-8 wrote
> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
> that they are a spammer.
> 
> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.

Well, here goes nothing. 

I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons. The problem is exactly 
that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually possible to do.
If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered to try to register to
these 
email lists, you would probably have found out that your spam filters are
set so 
high, that it is impossible for normal people to even register to these
lists! 

So then what are you supposed to do? In addition you do not mention anywhere 
what to do and who to contact, when you have problems registering to this
list.

Trust me, I have tried in this last week to get properly registered using at
least 3 
different email addresses (one gmail and two professional ones under the
domain 
names of the companies I work for.) Every time the response is that the 
confirmation emails are blocked due to anti-spam score of over 500. I should 
also mention that I am a member of several other email lists with these
accounts,
and nver had any problem with these before. So I thought perhaps my email 
domains are located on a shared and spammy subdomain. But that investigation 
was also negative. 

So to conclude, it is really your own fault that people are desperate to try
to 
contact anyone on this list, to help them out. I can't begin to imagine how
many 
bug reports you are loosing because of people not being able to contact you
or 
report their findings. I have now given up, as anything that shows here has
the 
warning that  it has not been approved by the list.

Finally, I find it very hard to understand why the Cygwin developers keep on 
insisting on using this outdated (and obviously failing) 1990's email lists
for their
main communication channel. 

Good Luck and Best Wishes,

Gene Rederer
(CEO, developer and Cygwin user since ~10 years)





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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

[Christopher Faylor]

Just to be clear:  The intent of my email was to actually save people
from going to the pointless exercise of trying to contact Corinna or
Larry directly since it won't work.

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 04:42:36PM -0700, Someone Who Took Personal Offense About General Advice wrote:
>Christopher Faylor-8 wrote
>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
>> that they are a spammer.
>> 
>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
>> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
>> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
>
>Well, here goes nothing. 
>
>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons.  The problem is
>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually
>possible to do.  If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered
>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found
>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for
>normal people to even register to these lists!

FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since
January 1.  I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered.
The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and
sourceware.org.  There are many other mailing lists under those
domains, and some of them have even more subscribers.

I told you why your mail was blocked, indicated that I took steps to
correct the action, and told you were to send email if you had further
problems.  You have not availed yourself of that channel since I told
you about it (you did try to send email there prior to that point
though).  If you really do want to get to the bottom of your email
issues then please start a dialog with cygwin-owner or postmaster.
You'll still be talking to me but you won't be using this list for your
non-cygwin concerns.

You'd mentioned that you hadn't received notification that you'd been
subscribed so I checked on that.  You subscribed to cygwin-allow.  Our
mailing list software doesn't send confirmation notice when signing up
for *-allow.  It does when you actually subscribe.  So, since you aren't
subscribed to the actual cygwin list (under this email address at least)
you wouldn't have seen a subscription ACK.

But, anyway, subscribing to cygwin-allow or cygwin itself would only
slightly relax the spam checking.  It wouldn't have helped with the spam
block that you were seeing.  That required manual intervention on my
part.  As I said, I fixed that.

>So to conclude, it is really your own fault that people are desperate
>to try to contact anyone on this list, to help them out.

You're assuming facts not in evidence.  There was a specific email that
prompted one of my periodic reminders not to try to send private email
but it was not in *any* way a plaintive request for help.

But, regardless, if you think about it, sending email to
someone@cygwin.com because you are frustrated about being spam blocked
when sending to somethingelse@cygwin.com doesn't make a whole lot of
sense.  What does make sense is following the link at the bottom of
http://cygwin.com/lists.html which leads you to:

https://sourceware.org/lists.html#faqs

If you follow that list then you get to:

https://sourceware.org/lists.html#spam

which *does* tell you where to send email if you feel you are being
inappropriately blocked.

>Good Luck and Best Wishes,
>
>Gene Rederer
>(CEO, developer and Cygwin user since ~10 years)

Same to you.

Chris Faylor
Kernel Programmer, Cygwin Contributor for 17 years, Cygwin Maintainer
for 16 years, and Schmuck who spends a lot of time doing complicated
stuff for people for free

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If you are having problems sending email here

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 09:53:52PM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>Just to be clear:  The intent of my email was to actually save people
>from going to the pointless exercise of trying to contact Corinna or
>Larry directly since it won't work.

To reiterate, here's the mailing list FAQ:

https://sourceware.org/lists.html#FAQ

The instructions there are designed to help work through most problems.

The most common problem by far is people sending html-formatted email.
I often see people who should know better sending html-formatted messages
multiple times, apparently in the hopes that one message will sneak by.

Second to this is people including raw email addresses in the subjects
or bodies of their messages.

Third is people sending email to various Cygwin personalities at
cygwin.com expecting to have a private chat (i.e., what prompted the
first message in this thread).

The html restriction is a sourceware.org policy so please don't attempt
to argue about it here.  This is also not the place to gripe about
"antiquated" mailing list software.  If you want to make a case for
changing something related to site policy (like html mail or
"antiquated" software), send email to overseers at this site.  If you
have email problems that can't be solved by reading the FAQ (this is a
rare occurence) then send email to cygwin-owner/postmaster.

Oh, and this should go without saying but before claiming that your
email isn't going through:

1) Check the archives (see http://cygwin.com/lists.html) to make sure
that it really didn't go through.

2) Check your spam filters to make sure that you haven't received a
helpful bounce message telling you what's wrong.  postmaster (aka me)
will want to see the bounce message if it's not html-related.

And, *please* don't reply to this message complaining that you did
everything and nothing worked.  If you are having problems send a short
note to postmaster (aka me) and I will work out what is going on.  I'll
even do it if you are bitter, angry, and lecturey.  I won't like you
much but I'll still help.

If you send email claiming that the system is saying that you are sending
html-formatted email and you know you're not I'll just point you at the
FAQ and make sure you know that our mail system is probably better than
you at noticing when email is formatted in html.

cgf

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Christopher Faylor!

>>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
>>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
>>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
>>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
>>> that they are a spammer.
>>> 
>>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
>>> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
>>> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
>>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
>>
>>Well, here goes nothing. 
>>
>>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons.  The problem is
>>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually
>>possible to do.  If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered
>>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found
>>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for
>>normal people to even register to these lists!

> FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since
> January 1.  I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered.
> The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and
> sourceware.org.  There are many other mailing lists under those
> domains, and some of them have even more subscribers.

The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
avail.
Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?


--
WBR,
Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@yandex.ru) 12.03.2014, <15:38>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Mar 12 15:43, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, Christopher Faylor!
> 
> >>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
> >>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
> >>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
> >>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
> >>> that they are a spammer.
> >>> 
> >>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
> >>> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
> >>> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
> >>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
> >>
> >>Well, here goes nothing. 
> >>
> >>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons.  The problem is
> >>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually
> >>possible to do.  If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered
> >>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found
> >>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for
> >>normal people to even register to these lists!
> 
> > FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since
> > January 1.  I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered.
> > The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and
> > sourceware.org.  There are many other mailing lists under those
> > domains, and some of them have even more subscribers.
> 
> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
> avail.
> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?

On the other hand, the "postmaster" account exists everywhere...


Corinna

-- 
Corinna Vinschen                  Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Maintainer                 cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Red Hat

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

[Adam Dinwoodie]

On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 03:43:11PM +0400, Andrey Repin wrote:
> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
> avail.
> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?

It is mentioned in the email headers.  Looking at this email, for
example, I see the following header:

    List-Help: <mailto:cygwin-help@cygwin.com>, <http://sourceware.org/ml/#faqs>

Alternatively, as cgf has already mentioned,
<http://cygwin.com/lists.html> states "If you have *any* questions or
problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs"
with a link to that same Sourceware page.  And that page includes the
following:

> 10.  I can't post because your spam software won't let me, and I want
> to tell you how unhappy I am
>
> ...
>
> If you have tried all the above techniques and are still unable to
> send email to a mailing list, then send email to postmaster at this
> site.  Be prepared to be mocked, if any of the above needs to be
> repeated to you, however.

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

[Christopher Faylor]

On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 12:17:51PM +0000, Adam Dinwoodie wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 03:43:11PM +0400, Andrey Repin wrote:
>> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
>> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
>> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
>> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
>> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
>> avail.
>> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
>> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?
>
>It is mentioned in the email headers.  Looking at this email, for
>example, I see the following header:
>
>    List-Help: <mailto:cygwin-help@cygwin.com>, <http://sourceware.org/ml/#faqs>
>
>Alternatively, as cgf has already mentioned,
><http://cygwin.com/lists.html> states "If you have *any* questions or
>problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs"
>with a link to that same Sourceware page.  And that page includes the
>following:

Thank you!  Can I get a gold star here for someone with good reading
skills?

cgf

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!

>> >>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
>> >>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
>> >>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
>> >>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
>> >>> that they are a spammer.
>> >>> 
>> >>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
>> >>> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
>> >>> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
>> >>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
>> >>
>> >>Well, here goes nothing. 
>> >>
>> >>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons.  The problem is
>> >>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually
>> >>possible to do.  If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered
>> >>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found
>> >>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for
>> >>normal people to even register to these lists!
>> 
>> > FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since
>> > January 1.  I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered.
>> > The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and
>> > sourceware.org.  There are many other mailing lists under those
>> > domains, and some of them have even more subscribers.
>> 
>> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
>> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
>> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
>> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
>> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
>> avail.
>> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
>> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?

> On the other hand, the "postmaster" account exists everywhere...

Not to argue, but postmaster is often not the right person to contact mailing
list owner.
Now, given proper explanation, I realize this is not the case for cygwin
mailing list, and I've already pinned Christopher's message for future
reference.


--
WBR,
Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@yandex.ru) 12.03.2014, <23:32>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:56:46AM +0400, Andrey Repin wrote:
>Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
>
>>> >>> I know that this is a pointless exercise but I'll say it anyway: people
>>> >>> who think that they can have a private chat with Corinna or Larry by
>>> >>> sending email to what seem to be their private email addresses will just
>>> >>> show up in the spam trap, possibly even causing spamassassin to think
>>> >>> that they are a spammer.
>>> >>> 
>>> >>> We mention in multiple places that cygwin-related issues should go to
>>> >>> this list.  So, please don't bother trying to send private email unless
>>> >>> you've been specifically asked to do so.  You'll also be doing me a
>>> >>> favor because I won't have to spend time cleaning out the spam traps.
>>> >>
>>> >>Well, here goes nothing. 
>>> >>
>>> >>I am happy to admit that I'm one of those persons.  The problem is
>>> >>exactly that what you claim we "should do" versus what is actually
>>> >>possible to do.  If any of the list maintainers had actually bothered
>>> >>to try to register to these email lists, you would probably have found
>>> >>out that your spam filters are set so high, that it is impossible for
>>> >>normal people to even register to these lists!
>>> 
>>> > FYI, The Cygwin list has 1212 subscribers with 89 new joiners since
>>> > January 1.  I'm the "list maintainer" and I'm obviously registered.
>>> > The same software that handles Cygwin also handles gcc.gnu.org and
>>> > sourceware.org.  There are many other mailing lists under those
>>> > domains, and some of them have even more subscribers.
>>> 
>>> The point was, it's nowhere mentioned, who to contact in case of list issues.
>>> Not in list mail headers, neither on list's mailman web page.
>>> I've had multiple mails blocked for containing  "foreign language" (how can I
>>> help? It's Microsoft smarts to translate group names to make everyone
>>> unhappy), and I multiple times tried to find the address to appeal to. To no
>>> avail.
>>> Yes, I vaguely recalled, that there supposed to be "<list>-owner" address,
>>> but it's only my poor memory. How can I trust her without confirmation?
>
>> On the other hand, the "postmaster" account exists everywhere...
>
>Not to argue, but postmaster is often not the right person to contact mailing
>list owner.
>Now, given proper explanation, I realize this is not the case for cygwin
>mailing list, and I've already pinned Christopher's message for future
>reference.

And presumably you won't argue with reference at the Cygwin list page which
says

"If you have any questions or problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs. "

and points you at a location which specifically answers your question.

The sourceware faq is mentioned *twice* at http://cygwin.com/lists.html so
your claims that it isn't mentioned anywhere would seem to indicate that you
didn't search too hard.  Ditto, your claim that nothing is mentioned in
the headers.

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Re: Please stop sending email to ...

[Andrew Schulman]

> >Alternatively, as cgf has already mentioned,
> ><http://cygwin.com/lists.html> states "If you have *any* questions or
> >problems with the mailing lists, see the Sourceware mailing list FAQs"
> >with a link to that same Sourceware page.  And that page includes the
> >following:
> 
> Thank you!  Can I get a gold star here for someone with good reading
> skills?
> 
> cgf

Awarded! http://cygwin.com/goldstars/#AD


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