Press for Cygwin

Press for Cygwin

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

Hi all,

For those of you interested, there is a good article that promotes 
Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH port.
Check it out:

    http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992

Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
118 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 03:58:48PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>For those of you interested, there is a good article that promotes 
>Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH port.
>Check it out:
>
>    http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992

Nice article except ARGH! they mention using WinZip to unpack the archives.

Does anyone know how we can adapt the archives so that they are not WinZip
readable?  Would just converting everything to .bz2 do that?

cgf

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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 04:06 PM 8/30/2001, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 03:58:48PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >For those of you interested, there is a good article that promotes 
> >Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH port.
> >Check it out:
> >
> >    http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992
>
>Nice article except ARGH! they mention using WinZip to unpack the archives.


Yes, I was a little perturbed by that too! 


>Does anyone know how we can adapt the archives so that they are not WinZip
>readable?  Would just converting everything to .bz2 do that?



Seems like it.  WinZip 8.0 won't read a cron-3.0.1-4.tar.bz2 file I have.



Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
118 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 04:13:54PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:
>At 04:06 PM 8/30/2001, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 03:58:48PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:
>>>For those of you interested, there is a good article that promotes
>>>Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH port.
>>>Check it out:
>>>
>>> http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992
>>
>>Nice article except ARGH! they mention using WinZip to unpack the
>>archives.
>
>Yes, I was a little perturbed by that too!
>
>>Does anyone know how we can adapt the archives so that they are not
>>WinZip readable?  Would just converting everything to .bz2 do that?
>
>Seems like it.  WinZip 8.0 won't read a cron-3.0.1-4.tar.bz2 file I
>have.

Hmm.  As it turns out, he is recommending that they download an *old*
version of openssh.  The newer tar files are .bz2 files.

I've just deleted the older openssh .tar.gz file.

cgf

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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Jonathon Merz]

> 
> 
>>Does anyone know how we can adapt the archives so that they are not WinZip
>>readable?  Would just converting everything to .bz2 do that?
>>
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like it.  WinZip 8.0 won't read a cron-3.0.1-4.tar.bz2 file I have.
> 
<soapbox>
Just some comments:  I do fully support the use of bzip2 over gzip because it 
compresses better, but I think using it purely to thwart WinZip users would be 
a bad reason to do so.  Deliberate limitations compatibility for the sake of 
limiting compatibility is something that many people dislike about Microsoft, 
and I don't see that it improves anything, ever.  On the other hand, if there 
is a legitimate reason to do something, and limiting compatibility is a side 
effect, then so be it.  Likewise, while we all appreciate the efficiency of 
command-line tools, trying to thwart users of WinZip is kind of elitist, and 
for those who have gotten to be called "System Administrators" without 
learning much in the way of command line tools, our efforts would be better 
spent teaching them to patch their IIS servers before we try to teach them to 
use the command line :)
</soapbox>


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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Charles Wilson]

Jonathon Merz wrote:

>>
>>
>>> Does anyone know how we can adapt the archives so that they are not 
>>> WinZip
>>> readable?  Would just converting everything to .bz2 do that?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Seems like it.  WinZip 8.0 won't read a cron-3.0.1-4.tar.bz2 file I have.
>>
> <soapbox>


</me chops your soapbox up for firewood>


> Just some comments:  I do fully support the use of bzip2 over gzip 
> because it compresses better, but I think using it purely to thwart 
> WinZip users would be a bad reason to do so.  


Really?  when (a) using WinZip results in a BROKEN installation, (b) 
users who say "I installed cygwin using WinZip" on this mailing list are 
immediately told -- "reinstall using setup.exe" (because winzip-created 
  cygwin "installations" are irretrievably BROKEN), and (c) because it's 
technically POSSIBLE right now to "install" cygwin using WinZip, we get 
newbies who ignore the HUGE @#$(& link on the cygwin webpage for the 
setup program and use WinZip to "install" at least once a week --

You think we're out of line for trying to make it hard for *new users* 
to shoot themselves in the foot?

> Deliberate limitations 
> compatibility for the sake of limiting compatibility is something that 
> many people dislike about Microsoft, and I don't see that it improves 
> anything, ever. 


But WinZip is ALREADY "incompatible" -- while you can "unzip" the 
.tar.gz files and get something that LOOKS like a cygwin installation -- 
it isn't.  Isn't an obvious, upfront refusal to allow this better than 
enabling users to "install" a broken system by using the WRONG tool?

> On the other hand, if there is a legitimate reason to 
> do something, and limiting compatibility is a side effect, then so be 
> it. 


DING DING DING! We have a winner!

> Likewise, while we all appreciate the efficiency of command-line 
> tools, trying to thwart users of WinZip is kind of elitist, and for 
> those who have gotten to be called "System Administrators" without 
> learning much in the way of command line tools, our efforts would be 
> better spent teaching them to patch their IIS servers before we try to 
> teach them to use the command line :)


Irrelevant.  Setup.exe is already a GUI tool -- despite continual 
requests by "elitists" to add commandline/batch capability.  These 
"elitists" are not 31337 enough to do add/contribute the necessary 
capabilities themselves, so it hasn't been done.  So much for "elitism".

--Chuck


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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Rick Rankin]

I believe it would. Not even the latest beta of WinZip seems to recognize .bz2
files.

Rick
--
Rick Rankin
rick_rankin@yahoo.com
--- Christopher Faylor <cgf@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 03:58:48PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
> wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >For those of you interested, there is a good article that promotes 
> >Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH port.
> >Check it out:
> >
> >    http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992
> 
> Nice article except ARGH! they mention using WinZip to unpack the archives.
> 
> Does anyone know how we can adapt the archives so that they are not WinZip
> readable?  Would just converting everything to .bz2 do that?
> 
> cgf
> 
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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Gerrit P. Haase]

Christopher Faylor schrieb am 2001-08-30, 16:06:

>On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 03:58:48PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
>wrote: >Hi all, > >For those of you interested, there is a good article that
>promotes >Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH
>port. >Check it out: > >   
> http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992
>
>Nice article except ARGH! they mention using WinZip to unpack the archives.
>
>Does anyone know how we can adapt the archives so that they are not WinZip
>readable?  Would just converting everything to .bz2 do that?

Yes.

Gerrit


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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Michael Schaap]

At 22:06 30-8-2001, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 03:58:48PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) 
>wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >For those of you interested, there is a good article that promotes
> >Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH port.
> >Check it out:
> >
> >    http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992
>
>Nice article except ARGH! they mention using WinZip to unpack the archives.

You sure?
I think you might feel differently when the support requests come in to 
this mailing list from people who created an extremely non-standard hacked 
Cygwin installation...  ;-(

  - Michael

-- 
     I always wondered about the meaning of life.   So I looked it
     up in the dictionary under "L" and there it was - the meaning
     of life.  It was not what I expected.                  - Dogbert 


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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 10:42:30PM +0200, Michael Schaap wrote:
>At 22:06 30-8-2001, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 03:58:48PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) 
>>wrote:
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>For those of you interested, there is a good article that promotes
>>>Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH port.
>>>Check it out:
>>>
>>>    http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992
>>
>>Nice article except ARGH! they mention using WinZip to unpack the archives.
>
>You sure?
>I think you might feel differently when the support requests come in to 
>this mailing list from people who created an extremely non-standard hacked 
>Cygwin installation...  ;-(

Which, coincidentially, was kinda my point.  Or does ARGH! mean something different
where you come from?

cgf

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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Michael Schaap]

At 22:49 30-8-2001, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >>Nice article except ARGH! they mention using WinZip to unpack the archives.
> >
> >You sure?
> >I think you might feel differently when the support requests come in to
> >this mailing list from people who created an extremely non-standard hacked
> >Cygwin installation...  ;-(
>
>Which, coincidentially, was kinda my point.  Or does ARGH! mean something 
>different
>where you come from?

Well, ARGH is not in the Dutch dictionary.  But then again, it isn't in the 
English dictionary either.  :-)

I misunderstood your ARGH - I assumed it was just directed towards the use 
of WinZip, which as we know can't deal with symlinks and such.  In fact, 
just about everything they say in the article deserves an ARGH(*), I would 
certainly not want to call it a "Nice article".  :-)

(I don't even think those instructions will give you a working sshd server 
- I believe ntsec is mandatory in $CYGWIN, right?  Also, I can't imagine 
"ps &-ef" and "kill &-HUP <PID>" doing something useful...)

(*) Apart from phrases like "Cygwin is an excellent toolkit for any 
administrator with UNIX experience who is moving into the Windows world.", 
of course.  :-)

-- 
     I always wondered about the meaning of life.   So I looked it
     up in the dictionary under "L" and there it was - the meaning
     of life.  It was not what I expected.                  - Dogbert 


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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 04:06:36PM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 03:58:48PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:
>>Hi all,
>>
>>For those of you interested, there is a good article that promotes
>>Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH port.
>>Check it out:
>>
>> http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992
>
>Nice article except ARGH! they mention using WinZip to unpack the
>archives.

I withdraw the "nice article" part.  It does mention our version of
openssh in a positive light but it has a lot of inaccuracies that could
end us bothering us here.  For instance, my browser has examples that
look like this:

C:\ssh\sshd.exe &--d &--f
  C:\ssh\sshd_config

So, it's more than just WinZip.  Bleah.

cgf

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Re: Press for Cygwin

[John Marshall]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 04:06:36PM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> Does anyone know how we can adapt the archives so that they are not WinZip
> readable?  Would just converting everything to .bz2 do that?

Amusingly enough, making the archive names self-identifying as
packages-for-use-with-Cygwin's-setup would solve this problem too.

For example (and this idea is the "better suggestion" I alluded to in
my previous email) if we substituted e.g. "cygwinpkg" for "tar" so that
a bunch of archives were called

	bash-2.05-6.cygwinpkg.gz
	bash-2.05-6-src.cygwinpkg.gz
	fileutils-4.1-1.cygwinpkg.bz2

then WinZip would ungzip the .gz ones but not realise there was a
tarball inside (because it looks for files ending in ".tar").

This is a little bit similar to Debian .deb packages.  If you use the
file command on a .deb package, it will tell you that it's just an ar
archive.  And ar and other tools do indeed work on .deb files.  But
they're ar archives with particular contents, for use with dpkg (or
whatever the tool is called), so the name tells you that.  Separation
of implementation and interface, and all that.

So even though tar still works on bash-2.05-6.cygwinpkg.gz and friends,
the name stops WinZip from seeing inside them, and emphasises that
they're special archives that work with setup.exe.

It seems to me that that's an understandable change to filename parsing.
But I'm still churning through the cygwin-developer mail archives in the
hope that I might be able to make intelligent comments one day. :-)

    John

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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Gerrit P. Haase]

Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc schrieb am 2001-08-30, 15:58:

>Hi all,
>
>For those of you interested, there is a good article that promotes 
>Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH port.
>Check it out:
>
>    http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992

I just read it. It lasts longer to read this article than installing a 
complete cygwin distribution including setting up sshd.

Gerrit

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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Michael F. March]

> Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc schrieb am 2001-08-30, 15:58:
> 
> >Hi all,
> >
> >For those of you interested, there is a good article that promotes 
> >Cygwin, at least in the context of its support of the OpenSSH port.
> >Check it out:
> >
> >    http://www.win2000mag.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=21992
> 
> I just read it. It lasts longer to read this article than installing a 
> complete cygwin distribution including setting up sshd.

Yeah... It kind of bugs me that they are soooo intent on *JUST*
installing SSH/SSHd. Cygwin, in its entirety, offers so much
functionality that it is stupid not to install everything. Having
BASH as your shell (instead of command.com) when you SSH into a
Windows box for instance, is a great feature.

Basically, SSHing into a Windows box without a full Cygwin install
is a pretty empty experience.


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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Michael Schaap]

At 23:02 30-8-2001, Michael F. March wrote:
>Yeah... It kind of bugs me that they are soooo intent on *JUST*
>installing SSH/SSHd. Cygwin, in its entirety, offers so much
>functionality that it is stupid not to install everything. Having
>BASH as your shell (instead of command.com) when you SSH into a
>Windows box for instance, is a great feature.

I guess you'll have to excuse Mr. Bradshaw for that.  He is an MSCE, after 
all...

  - Michael

(Oops... did I forget to put a smiley after that?)

-- 
     I always wondered about the meaning of life.   So I looked it
     up in the dictionary under "L" and there it was - the meaning
     of life.  It was not what I expected.                  - Dogbert 


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Re: Press for Cygwin

[Charles Wilson]

Gerrit P. Haase wrote:


> I just read it. It lasts longer to read this article than installing a 
> complete cygwin distribution including setting up sshd.
> 


Oh, come on, Gerrit -- that's not really fair.  *You* know HOW to do it. 
  Newbies don't -- so it takes 'em longer.  A little handholding, like 
this article, is a good thing. (Of course, it would be *better* if the 
hand-holder [this article] didn't drag the hand-holdee [poor newbie] in 
the WRONG direction by giving BAD advice, but...)

:-)

--Chuck


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Mobile install

[Alex Malinovich]

I'm trying to figure out a way to install Cygwin onto a Zip disk so that
it is completely INDEPENDENT of the OS. That is, no need to register
DLL's, etc. Anything that would take ANY sort of worthwhile permissions.
All of the machines it would be used on would be W2K machines. The
problem is that the labs at my place of "higher learning" are quite
locked down for fear of nasty "hacker types" getting into their systems.
Cmd.exe is locked, but apparently only through file permissions.
Command.com, however, is still accessible. If necessary, I can put a
cmd.exe on the zip disk to use in place of the one that's actually on
the HD. The idea is to go up to any lab computer, pop in the zip disk,
and start working in Cygwin. I mainly need Perl, GCC, and Emacs to work.
I've got NT emacs which will work fine without needing to do anything
with the OS. The only catch is will Perl, GCC, and the basics (ls, man,
etc.) work without a problem, and how to set up the disk for such. I'm
guessing that I can just put cygwin1.dll in the cygwin root. Anything
else I need to be aware of. Thanks for any and all help. :)

-Alex


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Re: Mobile install

[Dario Alcocer]

>>>>> "Alex" == Alex Malinovich <baggend@howlermonkey.net> writes:

    Alex> I'm trying to figure out a way to install Cygwin onto a Zip
    Alex> disk so that it is completely INDEPENDENT of the OS. That
    Alex> is, no need to register DLL's, etc.
          <snip>
    Alex> The idea is to go up to any lab computer, pop in the zip
    Alex> disk, and start working in Cygwin.
          <snip>
    Alex> I'm guessing that I can just put cygwin1.dll in the cygwin
    Alex> root. Anything else I need to be aware of.

The main issue is that the mount(1) command uses the registry to store
information regarding mount points.  If you're willing to setup the
mount points each time by hand, then yes, you should be able to have a
mobile installation that works.

One thing you could try is to use a batch file that's present on the
Zip disk that would set up the mounts for you before running a Cygwin
bash(1) shell.  In fact, you could take a modified version of
cygwin.bat and add calls to mount to set up up your mount points.  It
should work.

-- 
Dario Alcocer -- Sr. Software Developer, Helix Digital Inc.
alcocer@helixdigital.com -- http://www.helixdigital.com

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RE: Mobile install

[Alex Malinovich]

From looking at my registry, it looks like the only mounts I need to set
up are:

/
/usr/bin
/usr/lib

That should be easy enough to do in a batch file. The individual drive
mounts appear to be handled at run time. Which options will I need to
specify with mount(1) though? I'm guessing:

Mount -x \cygwin\bin /usr/bin
Mount \cygwin\lib /usr/lib
Mount \cygwin /

Is that about right? Or can I just do a plain vanilla mount (w/o the -x)
for bin? Also, are there any particular dependencies I should be aware
of between Perl and GCC and the rest of the Cygwin packages. My "lowest
common denominator" here is a 100MB Zip drive. (There are some 250's,
but I have to set this up for a 100.) What else will I need in addition
to Perl and GCC to ensure that they both still run? Thanks again. :)

-Alex

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dario Alcocer [ mailto:alcocer@helixdigital.com ] 
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 4:30 AM
> To: Alex Malinovich
> Cc: cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: Re: Mobile install
> 
> 
> >>>>> "Alex" == Alex Malinovich <baggend@howlermonkey.net> writes:
> 
>     Alex> I'm trying to figure out a way to install Cygwin onto a Zip
>     Alex> disk so that it is completely INDEPENDENT of the OS. That
>     Alex> is, no need to register DLL's, etc.
>           <snip>
>     Alex> The idea is to go up to any lab computer, pop in the zip
>     Alex> disk, and start working in Cygwin.
>           <snip>
>     Alex> I'm guessing that I can just put cygwin1.dll in the cygwin
>     Alex> root. Anything else I need to be aware of.
> 
> The main issue is that the mount(1) command uses the registry to store
> information regarding mount points.  If you're willing to setup the
> mount points each time by hand, then yes, you should be able to have a
> mobile installation that works.
> 
> One thing you could try is to use a batch file that's present on the
> Zip disk that would set up the mounts for you before running a Cygwin
> bash(1) shell.  In fact, you could take a modified version of
> cygwin.bat and add calls to mount to set up up your mount points.  It
> should work.
> 
> -- 
> Dario Alcocer -- Sr. Software Developer, Helix Digital Inc.
> alcocer@helixdigital.com -- http://www.helixdigital.com
> 
> 


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RE: Mobile install

[Dario Alcocer]

>>>>> "Alex" == Alex Malinovich <baggend@howlermonkey.net> writes:

    Alex> From looking at my registry, it looks like the only mounts I
    Alex> need to set up are:

    Alex> /
    Alex> /usr/bin
    Alex> /usr/lib

Yes, those are all the mounts that setup performs.

    Alex> That should be easy enough to do in a batch file. The
    Alex> individual drive mounts appear to be handled at run
    Alex> time.

No.  For DOS driver letters, you would need to set these up as well.
But, I wouldn't bother, since all the drives are available via the
/cygdrive virtual directory, called the "Cygwin drive prefix."  Use
'mount -c' to change to Cygwin drive prefix to anything else you
want, like say, /.

    Alex> Which options will I need to specify with mount(1) though?
    Alex> I'm guessing:

    Alex> Mount -x \cygwin\bin /usr/bin
    Alex> Mount \cygwin\lib /usr/lib
    Alex> Mount \cygwin /

    Alex> Is that about right? Or can I just do a plain vanilla mount
    Alex> (w/o the -x) for bin?

Actually, the mount of / should come first.  Additionally, you don't
need the -x option for any the mounts.  The only mount option you
might want to use is -b for binary mounts.

    Alex> Also, are there any particular dependencies I should be
    Alex> aware of between Perl and GCC and the rest of the Cygwin
    Alex> packages.

I don't understand what you mean.  As long as the mounts are done
correctly, GCC and Perl should work fine.  I would say just try it
out, and see if you have any problems.

-- 
Dario Alcocer -- Sr. Software Developer, Helix Digital Inc.
alcocer@helixdigital.com -- http://www.helixdigital.com

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RE: Mobile install

[Alex Malinovich]

If I run setup.exe and ONLY install Perl, GCC, and bash, will Perl and
GCC still work? Or do they have any dependencies on some of the other
packages? (since I have to keep the total install size as small as
possible.)

Thanks a lot for all of the help btw. It is greatly appreciated. :)

-Alex

>     Alex> Also, are there any particular dependencies I should be
>     Alex> aware of between Perl and GCC and the rest of the Cygwin
>     Alex> packages.
> 
> I don't understand what you mean.  As long as the mounts are done
> correctly, GCC and Perl should work fine.  I would say just try it
> out, and see if you have any problems.


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RE: Mobile install

[Dario Alcocer]

>>>>> "Alex" == Alex Malinovich <baggend@howlermonkey.net> writes:

    Alex> If I run setup.exe and ONLY install Perl, GCC, and bash,
    Alex> will Perl and GCC still work? Or do they have any
    Alex> dependencies on some of the other packages? (since I have to
    Alex> keep the total install size as small as possible.)

I suspect you'll want a few more packages, like the following:

    fileutils (cp, rm, mv, ls)
    gzip (for handling compressed files)
    man (in case you want to refer to your Perl man pages)
    sh-utils (pwd, tee, env)
    textutils (cat, sort, tr, tail)
    vim (for editing your Perl and C/C++ files)

Also, you'll probably want to get GNU Make too (it's in the make
package.)  Looking at the uncompressed file requirements for this, you
get the following:

    Perl     : 30MB
    GCC      : 12MB
    bash     :  2MB
    fileutils:  2MB
    gzip     : .5MB  
    man      : .1MB
    sh-utils : .5MB
    textutils:  2MB
    vim      :  5MB

    TOTAL    : 54MB

So, you should be able to put all of these on a Zip disk, and still
have plenty of space to keep your source files too.  Go ahead and try
this out, and let me know if it in fact works.  If it does, I'm
prepared to write a "how-to" and post it the list or put it on my web
site so that others can benefit.


-- 
Dario Alcocer -- Sr. Software Developer, Helix Digital Inc.
alcocer@helixdigital.com -- http://www.helixdigital.com

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