* Re: Which of cygwin32's design goals does ascii file conversion fulfil?
@ 1998-10-24 20:44 Earnie Boyd
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Earnie Boyd @ 1998-10-24 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Fox, gnu-win32
---David Fox <dsfox@cogsci.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> As I have noted before, there are two types of cygwin32 users, those
> who are trying to make their Windows box feel more Unixy, and those
> who are porting Unix code to Windows. It seems to me that neither of
> these groups has any need for DOS ``text mode'' conversion (where
> lines are terminated by CR-LF.) Why not make binary mode the one and
> only default once and for all?
>
> There's probably a good reason that I'm not aware of...
The reason is that Win32 filesystem default is to have \r\n or text
mode files. The idea for having text mode as the default is that it
is the default for the native platform. You could set everything to
binary but you would still have to _PORT_ the program to handle the \r
when it reads it and not choke on it.
Setting the default processing mode to binary only creates a different
set of problems. There seem to more problems related to having binary
mode set than not having binary mode set. By having text mode mounts
I never have to worry about a \r getting in the way. My shell scripts
work all of the time. I don't have to worry whether my program source
files contain \r\n. I don't have to worry about MS's programs (like
notepad) not being able to properly display the file.
If I were to change this to binary mode, I'd have a lot to worry about
now wouldn't I. Let me state this again:
For portability: files that are known to carry binary data specify
that it is binary data and files that are supposed to be read as ascii
text files _specify_ that it is _text_ data. DO NOT _ASSUME_ THAT THE
DEFAULTS FOR ANY OPTION OR PARAMETER FOR ANY FUNCTION ARE GOING TO
REMAIN CONSTANT.
If programs are _properly_ported_ then the user/administrator doesn't
need to be concerned with the data that is read by a program. This
will keep them happy and make you more productive with problems of
real concern. When I'm taking care of users needs I don't want to be
bothered with things like a \r in a file causing a program to abort
and other administrators and maintainers of systems don't want to be
bothered with it either.
So to conclude, the best advice I can give on this matter is to
PROPERLY PORT the programs so that a \r doesn't cause _you_ or
_anyone_else_ to have to stop being productive to wait on a filter to
remove \r's from the files. If you don't do this then you will have
the same problem over and over again. Want proof, read the archives
of this list.
==
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <(David>]
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* Re: Which of cygwin32's design goals does ascii file conversion fulfil? [not found] ` <lulnm7uker.fsf_-_.cygnus.gnu-win32@pipeline.ucsd.edu> @ 1998-10-24 20:44 ` Christopher G. Faylor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Christopher G. Faylor @ 1998-10-24 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gnu-win32 In article <lulnm7uker.fsf_-_.cygnus.gnu-win32@pipeline.ucsd.edu>, David Fox <dsfox@cogsci.ucsd.edu> wrote: >As I have noted before, there are two types of cygwin32 users, those >who are trying to make their Windows box feel more Unixy, and those >who are porting Unix code to Windows. It seems to me that neither of >these groups has any need for DOS ``text mode'' conversion (where >lines are terminated by CR-LF.) Why not make binary mode the one and >only default once and for all? > >There's probably a good reason that I'm not aware of... How about people who already have files with CRLF text endings? Anyway, I'm not going to get dragged into YA discussion about this. As I have suggested many times before, rather than raise this issue over and over and over again, please read the mailing list archives. It has been discussed to death in this mailing list in the past. -- cgf@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/ - For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <Benjamin>]
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* Which of cygwin32's design goals does ascii file conversion fulfil? @ 1998-10-23 12:54 ` David Fox 1998-10-24 10:29 ` Larry Hall 1998-10-25 1:41 ` Darren Cook 0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: David Fox @ 1998-10-23 12:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gnu-win32 As I have noted before, there are two types of cygwin32 users, those who are trying to make their Windows box feel more Unixy, and those who are porting Unix code to Windows. It seems to me that neither of these groups has any need for DOS ``text mode'' conversion (where lines are terminated by CR-LF.) Why not make binary mode the one and only default once and for all? There's probably a good reason that I'm not aware of... -- David Fox http://hci.ucsd.edu/dsf xoF divaD UCSD HCI Lab baL ICH DSCU - For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Which of cygwin32's design goals does ascii file conversion fulfil? 1998-10-23 12:54 ` David Fox @ 1998-10-24 10:29 ` Larry Hall 1998-10-26 5:47 ` Olle Olsson 1998-10-25 1:41 ` Darren Cook 1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Larry Hall @ 1998-10-24 10:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Fox, gnu-win32 At 12:51 PM 10/23/98 -0700, David Fox wrote: >As I have noted before, there are two types of cygwin32 users, those >who are trying to make their Windows box feel more Unixy, and those >who are porting Unix code to Windows. It seems to me that neither of >these groups has any need for DOS ``text mode'' conversion (where >lines are terminated by CR-LF.) Why not make binary mode the one and >only default once and for all? > >There's probably a good reason that I'm not aware of... >-- >David Fox http://hci.ucsd.edu/dsf xoF divaD >UCSD HCI Lab baL ICH DSCU People who use Notepad will be bummed. I'll leave it to you to determine whether or not this is a good enough reason to support Windows text mode by default... Larry Hall lhall@rfk.com RFK Partners, Inc. (781) 239-1053 8 Grove Street (781) 239-1655 - FAX Wellesley, MA 02482-7797 http://www.rfk.com - For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Which of cygwin32's design goals does ascii file conversion fulfil? 1998-10-24 10:29 ` Larry Hall @ 1998-10-26 5:47 ` Olle Olsson 1998-10-28 0:40 ` Geoffrey Noer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Olle Olsson @ 1998-10-26 5:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry Hall, gnu-win32 Larry Hall wrote: > At 12:51 PM 10/23/98 -0700, David Fox wrote: > >As I have noted before, there are two types of cygwin32 users, those > >who are trying to make their Windows box feel more Unixy, and those > >who are porting Unix code to Windows. It seems to me that neither of > >these groups has any need for DOS ``text mode'' conversion (where > >lines are terminated by CR-LF.) Why not make binary mode the one and > >only default once and for all?-- The question as spelled out in the subject line is of course important. The discussion of text vs. binary is not very productive, unless one states the intention of providing the cygwin package. I can see two camps around: - those that want a Unix to run on the hardware that typically supports a Windows system. But wouldn't it be better to go for a Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD or something like that. I.e. a true Unix system -those that want Unix functionality to gracefully coexist *and_cooperate* with functionality provided by a Windows platform. This cannot be provided by a Linux at al. solution Cooperation between Unix functionality and Windows functionality has two implications: (a) to be able to share data between these two goups of functionalities (i.e. programs) without necessarily bothering about representatiuonal issues, and (b) to be able to have programs of the different groups interact "seamlessly". Enforcing a binary approach to data in Cygwin applications would make it difficult to fulfill either of these two goals. Imagine using Netscape as a browser and wanting to have Cygwin-based applications handling some types of documents. If such applications could directly handle native Windows representations, it would make life much more simple. My understanding has been that Cygwin tries to achieve the "peaceful coexistence and cooperation" goal. If Cygwin tools require a full binary mount, then we do have some problems in achieveing the goal. So, what are the Cygwin design goals really? Are we hoping for something that cannot be fulfilled? Or is it, as some have suggested, not the design goals of the Cygwin infrastructure that is limiting us. Is it the design goals of the tool porters that might restrict us? /olle - For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Which of cygwin32's design goals does ascii file conversion fulfil? 1998-10-26 5:47 ` Olle Olsson @ 1998-10-28 0:40 ` Geoffrey Noer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Geoffrey Noer @ 1998-10-28 0:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Olle Olsson; +Cc: Larry Hall, gnu-win32 On Mon, Oct 26, 1998 at 12:21:10PM +0100, Olle Olsson wrote: [...] > -those that want Unix functionality to gracefully coexist *and_cooperate* > with functionality provided by a Windows platform. This cannot be provided > by a Linux at al. solution This is the primary goal. In my personal uses of Cygwin, I have never needed to use binary mounts. Instead, I have added the requisite binary mode flags to open calls, etc. Usually, it's not very difficult. Some of the text utilities that should be able to be used in either text or binary mode still need binary flags added though, that's about has hard as it gets (still not very)... > Or is it, as some have suggested, not the design goals of the Cygwin > infrastructure that is limiting us. Is it the design goals of the tool > porters that might restrict us? Ernie Boyd has written at length describing the typical changes to get everything working correctly with text mode mounts (a version of which will appear in the upcoming b20 FAQ) so I won't repeat it here. -- Geoffrey Noer noer@cygnus.com - For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Which of cygwin32's design goals does ascii file conversion fulfil? 1998-10-23 12:54 ` David Fox 1998-10-24 10:29 ` Larry Hall @ 1998-10-25 1:41 ` Darren Cook 1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Darren Cook @ 1998-10-25 1:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gnu-win32 >As I have noted before, there are two types of cygwin32 users, those >who are trying to make their Windows box feel more Unixy, and those >who are porting Unix code to Windows. It seems to me that neither of I'm trying mingw to see if it's a viable alternative to Visual C++. >these groups has any need for DOS ``text mode'' conversion (where >lines are terminated by CR-LF.) Why not make binary mode the one and >only default once and for all? The main reason is writing a program that has to read or write files that have to be used on Windows. Actually I see you're just referring to what the default should be. I always explicitly define "b" or "t", but I wonder how much existing code would break if the default changed? Darren - For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "gnu-win32-request@cygnus.com" with one line of text: "help". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1998-10-28 0:40 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1998-10-24 20:44 Which of cygwin32's design goals does ascii file conversion fulfil? Earnie Boyd [not found] <(David> [not found] ` <Fox)> [not found] ` <lulnm7uker.fsf_-_.cygnus.gnu-win32@pipeline.ucsd.edu> 1998-10-24 20:44 ` Christopher G. Faylor [not found] <Benjamin> [not found] ` <Riefenstahl's> [not found] ` <message> [not found] ` <of> [not found] ` <"Thu,> [not found] ` <22> [not found] ` <Oct> [not found] ` <1998> [not found] ` <14:02:23> [not found] ` <+0200> 1998-10-23 12:54 ` David Fox 1998-10-24 10:29 ` Larry Hall 1998-10-26 5:47 ` Olle Olsson 1998-10-28 0:40 ` Geoffrey Noer 1998-10-25 1:41 ` Darren Cook
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