Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[Suhaib M. Siddiqi]

FYI,

The April 2000 distribution of MSDN Universal Subscription contains
Microsoft Interix 2.2.

Burried way inside c:\Interix\usr\contriblib\gcc-lib\i386-pc-opennt is a
directory called
"cygnus-2.7.2-970404".  What actually it looks to me a GCC compiler
stolen from Cygwin B19 stock distribution. During installation it poped
20 GPL and LGPL warnings and said if you need code go to Interix side
and download... no code on the MSDN Subscription download or
Distribution CD itself... is not it the GPL violation itself?

Suhaib


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Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[DJ Delorie]

> The April 2000 distribution of MSDN Universal Subscription contains
> Microsoft Interix 2.2.

Cool!  Now even Microsoft is seeing the benefits of open source software.

> Burried way inside c:\Interix\usr\contriblib\gcc-lib\i386-pc-opennt is a
> directory called
> "cygnus-2.7.2-970404".  What actually it looks to me a GCC compiler
> stolen from Cygwin B19 stock distribution.

"Stolen" is the wrong word.  Remember, the whole point of the GPL is
to guarantee the *right* to copy such software.  Such guarantees work
equally for everyone - from the most prolific open source programmers
to the most rabid proprietary vendors.  If Microsoft wants to copy and
redistribute GPL'd software for their own benefit, that's fine - as
long as they play by the same rules everyone else plays by.

Plus, the i386-pc-opennt directory means that they *had* to rebuild
gcc from source, targetting their system.  This means that there are
now five wintel gccs - emx, djgpp, cygwin, mingw, and now interix.
The cygwin-* directory is just the version number, and there's no
reason why they couldn't start with sources from an old cygwin.

> During installation it poped 20 GPL and LGPL warnings and said if
> you need code go to Interix side and download... no code on the MSDN
> Subscription download or Distribution CD itself... is not it the GPL
> violation itself?

I don't think so, as long as you *can* get the code off the web.  I
think the FSF now allows web sites to fulfill the source requirement,
as long as the web site is run by the company distributing the
binaries.  I've heard rumors that the next GPL will allow this
explicitly, but that was a while ago...

But, if they are making sources available on the web, then they're
following the GPL more than the people we had to grant cygwin
exceptions to for binary-only distributions of "popular" packages.

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Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[Suhaib M. Siddiqi]

Well, Ok stolen is the wrong word.  But no I cannot find the sources to any
GPL and LGPL
on their site.  May be I am missing some tiny tiny download somewhere.  If
you could find any source
on the following link, let me know please... so far I would classify their
ports of GNU products
as a violation of GPL because I did not receive code with my MSDN
subscription CD, I do not
find code on MSDN Subscriber downlaod site and I also do not find code at the
link they
say in ther License.txt (GPL.txt) file....
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/sfu

I understand they can include GCC, G&& and all the other GNUish tools but
where is the code.
The GNU license included with MSDN cd is dates June 1991.  Is not their a
more recent GNU GPL?

Thanks
Suhaib


DJ Delorie wrote:

> > The April 2000 distribution of MSDN Universal Subscription contains
> > Microsoft Interix 2.2.
>
> Cool!  Now even Microsoft is seeing the benefits of open source software.
>
> > Burried way inside c:\Interix\usr\contriblib\gcc-lib\i386-pc-opennt is a
> > directory called
> > "cygnus-2.7.2-970404".  What actually it looks to me a GCC compiler
> > stolen from Cygwin B19 stock distribution.
>
> "Stolen" is the wrong word.  Remember, the whole point of the GPL is
> to guarantee the *right* to copy such software.  Such guarantees work
> equally for everyone - from the most prolific open source programmers
> to the most rabid proprietary vendors.  If Microsoft wants to copy and
> redistribute GPL'd software for their own benefit, that's fine - as
> long as they play by the same rules everyone else plays by.
>
> Plus, the i386-pc-opennt directory means that they *had* to rebuild
> gcc from source, targetting their system.  This means that there are
> now five wintel gccs - emx, djgpp, cygwin, mingw, and now interix.
> The cygwin-* directory is just the version number, and there's no
> reason why they couldn't start with sources from an old cygwin.
>
> > During installation it poped 20 GPL and LGPL warnings and said if
> > you need code go to Interix side and download... no code on the MSDN
> > Subscription download or Distribution CD itself... is not it the GPL
> > violation itself?
>
> I don't think so, as long as you *can* get the code off the web.  I
> think the FSF now allows web sites to fulfill the source requirement,
> as long as the web site is run by the company distributing the
> binaries.  I've heard rumors that the next GPL will allow this
> explicitly, but that was a while ago...
>
> But, if they are making sources available on the web, then they're
> following the GPL more than the people we had to grant cygwin
> exceptions to for binary-only distributions of "popular" packages.


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Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[DJ Delorie]

> Well, Ok stolen is the wrong word.  But no I cannot find the sources
> to any GPL and LGPL on their site.

Well, complaining to this list isn't going to help.  You need to
contact Microsoft (you have the binaries, you get to follow up) and
ask them to help you get the sources.  Maybe it's just a mistake.  If
they won't give you the sources, you need to contact the package
authors (usually, the FSF) and report it to them.  Cygnus does not own
copyright to most of the GNU packages; it assigns them to the FSF.  We
cannot persue these kinds of problems, the customer and/or the FSF
must.

Either way, Interix is not cygwin, so this topic is off-topic for the
cygwin mailing list.  Perhaps gnu.misc.discuss would be more
appropriate.

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OT: Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[Jeff Sturm]

"Suhaib M. Siddiqi" wrote:
> 
> Well, Ok stolen is the wrong word.  But no I cannot find the sources to any
> GPL and LGPL
> on their site.  May be I am missing some tiny tiny download somewhere.  If
> you could find any source
> on the following link, let me know please... so far I would classify their
> ports of GNU products
> as a violation of GPL because I did not receive code with my MSDN
> subscription CD, I do not
> find code on MSDN Subscriber downlaod site and I also do not find code at the
> link they
> say in ther License.txt (GPL.txt) file....

Wow, you are right... the Interix ftp site is gone.  Wonder if the FSF
would be interested in this one.  (Just what Microsoft needs right
now... another lawsuit <g>)

-- 
Jeff Sturm
jsturm@sigma6.com

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Re: OT: Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[DJ Delorie]

> Wow, you are right... the Interix ftp site is gone.  Wonder if the FSF
> would be interested in this one.  (Just what Microsoft needs right
> now... another lawsuit <g>)

In cases like this, it's important to give the distributor the benefit
of the doubt, regardless of your personal feelings.  It may be your
own mistake, it may be an oversight, but you shouldn't assume malice
until you've tried all other options.

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Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[Jeff Sturm]

DJ Delorie wrote:
> 
> > The April 2000 distribution of MSDN Universal Subscription contains
> > Microsoft Interix 2.2.
> 
> Cool!  Now even Microsoft is seeing the benefits of open source software.

I have a copy of OpenNT 2.1 around here somewhere... before it was
renamed to Interix, long before Microsoft purchased Interix.  It
contains the same gcc compiler.

Interesting to see that Microsoft hasn't killed that part of Interix
yet.

I don't know why "cygnus" appears in their directory tree... though it
is possible they had once contracted Cygnus to do the Interix port.

> Plus, the i386-pc-opennt directory means that they *had* to rebuild
> gcc from source, targetting their system.  This means that there are
> now five wintel gccs - emx, djgpp, cygwin, mingw, and now interix.
> The cygwin-* directory is just the version number, and there's no
> reason why they couldn't start with sources from an old cygwin.

Six... you forgot "uwin" ;)

> But, if they are making sources available on the web, then they're
> following the GPL more than the people we had to grant cygwin
> exceptions to for binary-only distributions of "popular" packages.

They do provide a patchfile + sources on their ftp site, or at least
used to... I once downloaded them when I had to rebuild the compiler.

-- 
Jeff Sturm
jsturm@sigma6.com

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Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[Mumit Khan]

Jeff Sturm <jsturm@sigma6.com> writes:
> 
> Six... you forgot "uwin" ;)
> 

Oops, I too forgot UWIN, which is a tad ironical given that I'm the 
only one who's ever touched that port. So, make that Seven (Six +
one new win32-gnu port).

Regards,
Mumit


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Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[Mumit Khan]

DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> writes:

> Cool!  Now even Microsoft is seeing the benefits of open source software.

Actually, Microsoft always has, just likes to hide the fact in case
it's forced to practice the same! If you look at its own now-obsolete
POSIX kit, it included quite a bit of GNU code, including a port of 
gcc. That whole POSIX subsystem and kit is now obsoleted by Interix's 
product.

As for Interix, here's a bit of history: Softway/Interix a few years 
ago started out with Cygwin b17 as the base and built a version of gcc 
and binutils for their POSIX subsystem. GCC didn't need too much 
modification, at least at the basic level, but binutils is a whole 
different story.

Even though Interix now uses newer gcc, their stable codebase still
uses some old code, and that's why you see the cygnus-2.7.2-970404.

I assume the "assimilation" of Interix by MS will have caused some
temporary glitches, but Interix has always maintained full sources
on their ftp site; a bit buried, but the pointer is on their CD and
in docs.

For the record, I have no affiliation with Interix other than some 
productive collaborative efforts with Donn Terry in porting egcs 
to Interix.

> Plus, the i386-pc-opennt directory means that they *had* to rebuild
> gcc from source, targetting their system.  This means that there are
> now five wintel gccs - emx, djgpp, cygwin, mingw, and now interix.

Make that *six*; a brand new one -- ix86-pc-win32-gnu -- which uses 
GNU C Library as the runtime. I'm still cleaning out bits and pieces
at this point, mostly in the runtime.

Sorry about getting rather off-topic here ...

Regards,
Mumit


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Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[DJ Delorie]

> Make that *six*; a brand new one -- ix86-pc-win32-gnu -- which uses 
> GNU C Library as the runtime. I'm still cleaning out bits and pieces
> at this point, mostly in the runtime.

UWIN made seven; and technically I've got an eighth - i86-pc-msdos -
which I started but never really finished.

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Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[Fergus Henderson]

On 11-Apr-2000, DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> wrote:
> 
> > Make that *six*; a brand new one -- ix86-pc-win32-gnu -- which uses 
> > GNU C Library as the runtime. I'm still cleaning out bits and pieces
> > at this point, mostly in the runtime.
> 
> UWIN made seven; and technically I've got an eighth - i86-pc-msdos -
> which I started but never really finished.

What was the difference between that and djgpp?

-- 
Fergus Henderson <fjh@cs.mu.oz.au>  |  "I have always known that the pursuit
WWW: < http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~fjh >  |  of excellence is a lethal habit"
PGP: finger fjh@128.250.37.3        |     -- the last words of T. S. Garp.

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Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[Suhaib M. Siddiqi]

Yes there is some old old code at ftp.interix.com/newinterix.main_tools.html

but absolutely nothing at the URL M$ quotes in GPL document to retrieve code
for the GPL'ed binaries


Mumit Khan wrote:

> DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> writes:
>
> > Cool!  Now even Microsoft is seeing the benefits of open source software.
>
> Actually, Microsoft always has, just likes to hide the fact in case
> it's forced to practice the same! If you look at its own now-obsolete
> POSIX kit, it included quite a bit of GNU code, including a port of
> gcc. That whole POSIX subsystem and kit is now obsoleted by Interix's
> product.
>
> As for Interix, here's a bit of history: Softway/Interix a few years
> ago started out with Cygwin b17 as the base and built a version of gcc
> and binutils for their POSIX subsystem. GCC didn't need too much
> modification, at least at the basic level, but binutils is a whole
> different story.
>
> Even though Interix now uses newer gcc, their stable codebase still
> uses some old code, and that's why you see the cygnus-2.7.2-970404.
>
> I assume the "assimilation" of Interix by MS will have caused some
> temporary glitches, but Interix has always maintained full sources
> on their ftp site; a bit buried, but the pointer is on their CD and
> in docs.
>
> For the record, I have no affiliation with Interix other than some
> productive collaborative efforts with Donn Terry in porting egcs
> to Interix.
>
> > Plus, the i386-pc-opennt directory means that they *had* to rebuild
> > gcc from source, targetting their system.  This means that there are
> > now five wintel gccs - emx, djgpp, cygwin, mingw, and now interix.
>
> Make that *six*; a brand new one -- ix86-pc-win32-gnu -- which uses
> GNU C Library as the runtime. I'm still cleaning out bits and pieces
> at this point, mostly in the runtime.
>
> Sorry about getting rather off-topic here ...
>
> Regards,
> Mumit


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RE: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[Peter Ring]

Try this URL: ftp://208.20.99.249/

GNU source code at ftp://208.20.99.249/newpub/tw/unsup/gnu/

Binaries and sources for various ports at
ftp://208.20.99.249/newpub/tw/unsup/new/

I bought the Microsoft Interix 2.2.5 distribution ($99, seems that
Cygnus has set the price level!) partly out of curiousity, and partly to
get an inetd (telnetd etc.) integrated with Windows NT's user
administration.

There is apparently not yet a ftp or http server at ftp.interix.com;
they are slooowly getting things running after the Microsoft aquisition.
It will take quite a while (forever?), before Interix reach the level of
community support that cygwin has, but there is actually some support if
you mail to interix@microsoft.com.

Kind regards,
Peter Ring
Forlaget MAGNUS A/S
A Wolters Kluwer Company



-----Original Message-----
From: Suhaib M. Siddiqi [ mailto:ssiddiqi@inspirepharm.com ]
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 10:43 PM
To: Mumit Khan
Cc: DJ Delorie; cygwin@sourceware.cygnus.com
Subject: Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin


Yes there is some old old code at
ftp.interix.com/newinterix.main_tools.html

but absolutely nothing at the URL M$ quotes in GPL document to retrieve
code
for the GPL'ed binaries


Mumit Khan wrote:

> DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> writes:
>
> > Cool!  Now even Microsoft is seeing the benefits of open source software.
>
> Actually, Microsoft always has, just likes to hide the fact in case
> it's forced to practice the same! If you look at its own now-obsolete
> POSIX kit, it included quite a bit of GNU code, including a port of
> gcc. That whole POSIX subsystem and kit is now obsoleted by Interix's
> product.
>
> As for Interix, here's a bit of history: Softway/Interix a few years
> ago started out with Cygwin b17 as the base and built a version of gcc
> and binutils for their POSIX subsystem. GCC didn't need too much
> modification, at least at the basic level, but binutils is a whole
> different story.
>
> Even though Interix now uses newer gcc, their stable codebase still
> uses some old code, and that's why you see the cygnus-2.7.2-970404.
>
> I assume the "assimilation" of Interix by MS will have caused some
> temporary glitches, but Interix has always maintained full sources
> on their ftp site; a bit buried, but the pointer is on their CD and
> in docs.
>
> For the record, I have no affiliation with Interix other than some
> productive collaborative efforts with Donn Terry in porting egcs
> to Interix.
>
> > Plus, the i386-pc-opennt directory means that they *had* to rebuild
> > gcc from source, targetting their system.  This means that there are
> > now five wintel gccs - emx, djgpp, cygwin, mingw, and now interix.
>
> Make that *six*; a brand new one -- ix86-pc-win32-gnu -- which uses
> GNU C Library as the runtime. I'm still cleaning out bits and pieces
> at this point, mostly in the runtime.
>
> Sorry about getting rather off-topic here ...
>
> Regards,
> Mumit


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Re: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[Corinna Vinschen]

Peter Ring wrote:
> [...]
> I bought the Microsoft Interix 2.2.5 distribution ($99, seems that
> Cygnus has set the price level!) partly out of curiousity, and partly to
> get an inetd (telnetd etc.) integrated with Windows NT's user
> administration.

Just for clarification:

The login(1) that is called by telnetd for user authentication
is ported to cygwin by Sergy Okhapkin long ago. It uses
NT user database and the users NT passwords already for a long
period of time. If you bought the Cygwin 1.0 CD or if you are
using newer snapshots you would already have the ability to work
with a strong relation between Cygwin users (in /etc/passwd) and
NT users. In my ftp porters directory

ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/win32/develop/gnuwin32/cygwin/porters/Vinschen_Corinna/B22

(will be renamed to "1.1" as soon as the net release is published)
you can find another login(1). That one contains Sergeys patches
and a new patch that enables NT user authentification in multi
domain environments as well.

Corinna

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RE: Mirosoft Interix contains Cygwin

[David Eisner]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Peter Ring wrote:

> I bought the Microsoft Interix 2.2.5 distribution ($99, seems that
> Cygnus has set the price level!) partly out of curiousity, and partly to


What's the pricing structure if you wanted to distribute Unix apps built
against Interix?  

With Cygwin, it's either free, if the apps are GPL'd, or $100,000 
otherwise (last time I checked).

-David


-----------------------------------------------------
David Eisner            | E-mail: cradle@eng.umd.edu |
CALCE EPSC              | Phone:  301-405-5341       |
University of Maryland  | Fax:    301-314-9269       |
-----------------------------------------------------


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