RPM 4 under cygwin

RPM 4 under cygwin

[Jean-Michel POURE]

Dear all,

I am new to Cygwin and would like to know if someone is porting RPM 4 to 
Cygwin. There are two reasons for this question:

1) PHP library and application installer
I am developping a PHP library installer based on RPM. Presently, if no RPM 
solution is available under Cygwin, my installer will only work under Linux.

2) Cygwin packages
Could someone explain me what are the benefits of Cygwin packages over RPM. 
Do Cygwin packages test dependencies and validate signatures? When a stable 
version of KDE 2 is running under Cygwin, will you be able to maintain all 
needed dependencies?

Any answer is welcome, even a link to a previous discussion.
Best regards,
Jean-Michel POURE

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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 08:54 AM 12/19/2001, Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>I am new to Cygwin and would like to know if someone is porting RPM 4 to 
>Cygwin. There are two reasons for this question:
>
>1) PHP library and application installer
>I am developping a PHP library installer based on RPM. Presently, if no RPM 
>solution is available under Cygwin, my installer will only work under Linux.


There have been ports of RPM 3 previously reported to this list.  See the
email archives or perhaps the port web page for more information.  I don't
recall seeing anyone reportedly working on RPM 4.


>2) Cygwin packages
>Could someone explain me what are the benefits of Cygwin packages over RPM. 
>Do Cygwin packages test dependencies and validate signatures? When a stable 
>version of KDE 2 is running under Cygwin, will you be able to maintain all 
>needed dependencies?


setup.exe recently added the ability to track dependencies between 
packages, though dependencies on certain versions of other packages is
still to come.



Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Prentis Brooks]

One of the guys on my team here has ported the current version of RPM, once
he cleans up his patch, we will send out to you all.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:

> At 08:54 AM 12/19/2001, Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
> >Dear all,
> >
> >I am new to Cygwin and would like to know if someone is porting RPM 4 to
> >Cygwin. There are two reasons for this question:
> >
> >1) PHP library and application installer
> >I am developping a PHP library installer based on RPM. Presently, if no RPM
> >solution is available under Cygwin, my installer will only work under Linux.
>
>
> There have been ports of RPM 3 previously reported to this list.  See the
> email archives or perhaps the port web page for more information.  I don't
> recall seeing anyone reportedly working on RPM 4.
>
>
> >2) Cygwin packages
> >Could someone explain me what are the benefits of Cygwin packages over RPM.
> >Do Cygwin packages test dependencies and validate signatures? When a stable
> >version of KDE 2 is running under Cygwin, will you be able to maintain all
> >needed dependencies?
>
>
> setup.exe recently added the ability to track dependencies between
> packages, though dependencies on certain versions of other packages is
> still to come.
>
>
>
> Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
> RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
> 838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
> Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX
>
>
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>

Prentis Brooks	| prentis@aol.net | 703-265-0914 | AIM: PrentisB
Senior System Administrator - Web Infrastructure & Security

       A knight is sworn to valor.  His heart knows only virtue.  His blade
       defends the helpless.  His word speaks only truth.  His wrath undoes the
       wicked. - the old code of Bowen, last of the dragonslayers


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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Jean-Michel POURE]

> setup.exe recently added the ability to track dependencies between
> packages, though dependencies on certain versions of other packages is
> still to come.

The power of RPM is to be able to track dependencies between packages. It 
helps releasing core software and libraries separately, with cross-depedency 
checking. There is no real limit to the power of RPM.

Best regards,
Jean-Michel POURE

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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Charles Wilson]

Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:

>>2) Cygwin packages
>>Could someone explain me what are the benefits of Cygwin packages over RPM. 
>>Do Cygwin packages test dependencies and validate signatures? 


Since Larry didn't touch this, I'll respond.  Cygwin packages can be 
unpacked/interpreted/understood by a NON cygwin program (setup.exe is a 
native windows app).  ALL ports of RPM that I have seen require cygwin 
-- which means they cannot easily be used to install cygwin itself on a 
virgin system.  This is a serious drawback.

Signature validation is a good idea(*) -- Robert, can you add that to 
the wishlist?

(*) I'm thinking more in terms the md5 file verification, not 
necessarily maintainer-signature PGP verification...

--Chuck


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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 11:02 AM 12/19/2001, Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
> > setup.exe recently added the ability to track dependencies between
> > packages, though dependencies on certain versions of other packages is
> > still to come.
>
>The power of RPM is to be able to track dependencies between packages. It 
>helps releasing core software and libraries separately, with cross-depedency 
>checking. There is no real limit to the power of RPM.


In case there is some confusion generated by my response, the capabilities
of RPM and Debian's dpkg have been discussed extensively on this list.
It's not a new topic.  

I won't debate which is better nor do I feel it appropriate for me to 
offer a comparative review of feature of each w.r.t. setup.exe (I know
you were looking for some information like that though).  setup.exe is 
the current installer.  The goal is for it to eventually include 
the ability to install RPMs and Debian packages.  It's a work in progress.

For more details on the previous discussion of RPM/dpkg/setup.exe, see the
email archives.  

FWIW, I like RPM.

I also see the value of setup.exe.

Forgive me if this touches off some flame-war over which installer is
the best.  I'd rather it didn't! :-)



Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Robert Collins]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Wilson" <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu>

> Since Larry didn't touch this, I'll respond.  Cygwin packages can be
> unpacked/interpreted/understood by a NON cygwin program (setup.exe is
a
> native windows app).  ALL ports of RPM that I have seen require cygwin
> -- which means they cannot easily be used to install cygwin itself on
a
> virgin system.  This is a serious drawback.

And cannot replace in-use files. AFAIK only my alpha experiment on that
is around for the cygwin/rpm/deb world.

> Signature validation is a good idea(*) -- Robert, can you add that to
> the wishlist?
>
> (*) I'm thinking more in terms the md5 file verification, not
> necessarily maintainer-signature PGP verification...

I can't figure out why it's not there already. I could have sworn...

Rob


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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Jean-Michel POURE]

> Since Larry didn't touch this, I'll respond.  Cygwin packages can be 
unpacked/interpreted/understood by a NON cygwin program (setup.exe is a 
native windows app).  ALL ports of RPM that I have seen require cygwin -- 
which means they cannot easily be used to install cygwin itself on a virgin 
system.  This is a serious drawback.

This clearly is a demonstration that cygwin would benefit from a static 
compilation option. I know this is not an issue for you all, but ...

Coming back to RPM, this would be so nice to issue this command:
rpm --rebuild --target=cygwin package_name.rpms to compile any existing 
apckage for Cygwin.

There are 100 times more Linux developpers than $Windows developpers. Why  
to reinvent the wheel with another installation format? Do you really think 
you can create a universal format including DEB and RPM? Then you need to 
produce more work than the creators of these formats. This is such a 
difficult project...

Best regards,
Jean-Michel POURE


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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Robert Collins]

Then why not help us get deb/rpm support into setup.exe rather than just
complaining that we don't understand.

This HAS been covered. Many times. It's in the archives. RPM as static
port is *not good enough*. Neither is dpkg. As a userland tool for
building packages, yes, but thats a different story.

Rob

...
There are 100 times more Linux developpers than $Windows developpers.
Why
to reinvent the wheel with another installation format? Do you really
think
you can create a universal format including DEB and RPM? Then you need
to
produce more work than the creators of these formats. This is such a
difficult project...




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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Charles Wilson]

Jean-Michel POURE wrote:

>>Since Larry didn't touch this, I'll respond.  Cygwin packages can be 
>>
> unpacked/interpreted/understood by a NON cygwin program (setup.exe is a 
> native windows app).  ALL ports of RPM that I have seen require cygwin -- 
> which means they cannot easily be used to install cygwin itself on a virgin 
> system.  This is a serious drawback.
> 
> This clearly is a demonstration that cygwin would benefit from a static 
> compilation option. I know this is not an issue for you all, but ...


No, actually you are wrong -- this is not a demonstration of anything of 
the sort.  Let us suppose that you COULD link cygwin1.dll statically 
(into rpm.exe?).  What mount table would be available for that 
cygwin-inside-rpm.exe to use?

In the scenario you raise, there is really no fundamental difference 
between cygwin-inside-rpm.exe, and a cygwin.dll-based-rpm with a 
cygwin1.dll sitting next to it.  The fact is, you need a NON cygwin 
program to do some initial system configuration before cygwin-based 
progs can operate properly on a virgin system.

This has been discussed so damn many times on the mailing list it's 
really starting to piss me off...


> Coming back to RPM, this would be so nice to issue this command:
> rpm --rebuild --target=cygwin package_name.rpms to compile any existing 
> apckage for Cygwin.
> 
> There are 100 times more Linux developpers than $Windows developpers. Why  
> to reinvent the wheel with another installation format? 


Oh, heaven forbid we actually invent a streaming tape format and then 
repurpose it for disk archives.  Oh, wait, that's tar -- and it's been 
around since 1962 at least.  Then there's that upstart gzip format -- 
it's only been around since the mid 70's, that young whippersnapper.

.tar.gz is not new.

>Do you really think 
> you can create a universal format including DEB and RPM? Then you need to 
> produce more work than the creators of these formats. This is such a 
> difficult project...


No, we just want to teach setup.exe to unpack either pure DEBs or pure 
RPMS.  Prefereably using librpm.a or libdeb.a, which already exist.
However, those are cygwin/unixy ports, so we run into the problems 
described earlier.

Don't like my superior tone?  I don't blame you -- it's very irritating 
to be "talked down to" as if one was a child playing with adult toys. 
Want to know why I took such an abrasive tone?



Because your message was written that way, too.  "This is clearly..." 
and "Do you really think..." indeed.

--Chuck



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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Robert Collins]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Wilson" <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu>
> No, actually you are wrong -- this is not a demonstration of anything
of
> the sort.  Let us suppose that you COULD link cygwin1.dll statically
> (into rpm.exe?).  What mount table would be available for that
> cygwin-inside-rpm.exe to use?

As long as no absolute, non /cygdrive/ path access occurs, a static
linked cygwin1.dll would be sufficient for setup.exe. However other
issues still exist and I share your distate of the arrogant manner in
which the question?/statement?/whatever it was was communicated to us.

Rob


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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Robert Collins]

===
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Collins" <robert.collins@itdomain.com.au>

> As long as no absolute, non /cygdrive/ path access occurs, a static
...........................................................^ before the
mount table is created ^...



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Re: RPM 4 under cygwin

[Jean-Michel POURE]

Le Jeudi 20 Décembre 2001 10:04, vous avez écrit :
> Don't like my superior tone?  I don't blame you -- it's very irritating
> to be "talked down to" as if one was a child playing with adult toys.
> Want to know why I took such an abrasive tone?

Sorry for my tone.

In fact, I like RPM and would like very much to see my beloved Cygwin support 
RPM packages (natively or not). 

The reason is rather selfish : I would like to start an RPM installation 
project for PHP code (for libraries and applications, not the executable 
itself).

Communities (PEAR, BinaryCloud) propose XML based installation solutions. In 
my humble opinion, the proposed solutions will never reach the power of RPM. 
As a result, existing PHP libraries are not widely reused/shared by common 
programs. For example, PhpMyAdmin and PhpPgAdmin do not make an extensive use 
of common libraries. People start several projects that come down to the same 
things (i.e. PhpOracleAdmin, PhpMyAdmin, ..., Nuke, PowerNuke, etc...).

Another example is pgAdmin, the windows administration interface of 
PostgreSQL that I contribute to. We use an $ installation program which does 
not have the power and flexibility of RPM. Furthermore, pgAdmin is based on 
pgSchema (abstraction layer) which could be installed and maintained as a 
separete library if we had RPM.

OK, I stop here as this is not the Cygwin concern. The need for RPM under 
Windows is general. The power of RPM is to be able to share material. Any RPM 
solution under Windows is welcome (based on Cygwin or not). 

Also, thank you all for this great Cygwin software. I hope to be one day able 
to install KDE2 from Cygwin...

Best regards,
Jean-Michel POURE



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