suggestion/rant re: install method

suggestion/rant re: install method

[Urdaneta, Alfonso E (N-Summitt Technologies)]

I just tried to download and install cygwin - and I have to say the install
is highly frustrating.

While I understand the motivation for the granular installer, I think that
you should still provide the option of a monolithic download.  Unfortunatly
many of the "mirrors" that I had to chose from only mirrored a subset of the
modules that I needed to download for my full install.

I don't know how many times I had to deal with dialogs telling me "download
failed" and then choose a different mirror only to be told "the server has
an older version of setup.ini than the one you were using, continue ?",
forcing me to go through the installer over and over and over till finally I
now have a cygwin install that is about 80% functional, and I have to go
back over it and find all the pieces that didn't come down.

One thing that you guys may not have considered is that the current
"internet-only" method is unsuitable for classified environments.  I have
worked (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) in a "secure" environment which
does not allow a live connection to the internet.  In that sort of
environment we are allowed to stick CDs into the machine to install
software, but downloading is expressly prohibited.  

By refusing to provide a "monolithic install" option that users such as
myself can download and burn to CD to be used on non-networked machines, you
have essentially made cygwin a non-option for us.  

And please, any comments such "just plug it in for the download - a firewall
is more than adequate protection" are worthless - those of use that do
government work deal with beaurocrats, not reasonable technically compentent
human beings.  

Just an example - at my last government job I was not allowed to bring a
CD-RW into the lab even though all the machines had _only_ CDROM drives. (
yes, you read that correctly, read only drives NOT a writeable ones ).

I'm also concerned about the wasted bandwith and the delays induced by
downloading.  

I have a stack of CDs that I have burned with the tools that I normally
download such as gcc, xemacs, jdk, etc.  I use these whenever I setup a new
machine.  It seems that downloading 200-300M worth of stuff per machine is
ludicrous - especially if you are going to configure 20-50 developer
workstations, which I have had to do.  Seems like an excessive drain on your
mirror sites, and the internet in general.

Alfonso.


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Re: suggestion/rant re: install method

[David T-G]

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Alfonso, et al --

...and then Urdaneta, Alfonso E (N-Summitt Technologies) said...
% 
% I just tried to download and install cygwin - and I have to say the install
% is highly frustrating.

I must admit that I know what you mean.


% 
% While I understand the motivation for the granular installer, I think that
% you should still provide the option of a monolithic download.  Unfortunatly
% many of the "mirrors" that I had to chose from only mirrored a subset of the
% modules that I needed to download for my full install.

I don't feel a need to go back to a monolithic download, but keeping
mirrors up to date really is a challenge.  I don't know enough about the
setup to suggest a fix, but (here I go anyway :-) something like always
getting the setup.ini file from the canonical master and then somehow
comparing it with what the mirror has could let you know in advance that
such-and-such will be missing or downrevved so that you could choose
another mirror if you cared would be a nice touch.


% 
...
% One thing that you guys may not have considered is that the current
% "internet-only" method is unsuitable for classified environments.  I have

Actually, while from the 'net is the preferred ('cuz must current)
method, it's certainly not the only option.


% worked (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) in a "secure" environment which
% does not allow a live connection to the internet.  In that sort of
% environment we are allowed to stick CDs into the machine to install
% software, but downloading is expressly prohibited.  

Funny...  Where I'm contracting now they have a cow about anything
downloaded even if you bring it in on your own CD...  How nice that they
let you install what you want without having to jump through a million
hoops to ensure that the code that you download is the real thing instead
of some evilly-changed version...


% 
% By refusing to provide a "monolithic install" option that users such as
% myself can download and burn to CD to be used on non-networked machines, you
% have essentially made cygwin a non-option for us.  

Aha!  Here's your happiness, then.  The next time you're at a 'net box,
start setup (from the web site or your own copy or whatever) and select
"Download from Internet" to make your own respository.  It'll suck down
the whole thing (minus any pieces missing 'cuz of mirroring problems as
above) and then you'll have a lovely directory tree that you can burn to
CD (after moving the packages from the per-mirror subtree to the main
subtree, IIUC) and take into your lab and run setup (which I'm sure
you'll have remembered to put on the CD, along with setup.ini :-) and
choose "Install from Local Directory" and there ya go.

As an added bonus, you can update your "source tree" with more current
packages and then re-burn your CD periodically.


% 
% And please, any comments such "just plug it in for the download - a firewall
% is more than adequate protection" are worthless - those of use that do
% government work deal with beaurocrats, not reasonable technically compentent
% human beings.  

Understood, and I don't think anyone would suggest that (though I'm
finding it hard to resist ;-)


% 
% Just an example - at my last government job I was not allowed to bring a
% CD-RW into the lab even though all the machines had _only_ CDROM drives. (
% yes, you read that correctly, read only drives NOT a writeable ones ).

And yet they let you bring in downloaded code...  Oy!


% 
% I'm also concerned about the wasted bandwith and the delays induced by
% downloading.  
% 
% I have a stack of CDs that I have burned with the tools that I normally
% download such as gcc, xemacs, jdk, etc.  I use these whenever I setup a new

Right.  While I'm still amazed, I understand the concept; I do the same
thing (though it all fits on one CD; what the heck are you installing?!?).


% machine.  It seems that downloading 200-300M worth of stuff per machine is
% ludicrous - especially if you are going to configure 20-50 developer
% workstations, which I have had to do.  Seems like an excessive drain on your
% mirror sites, and the internet in general.

Sounds like a good reason for you to download + burn + install locally!


% 
% Alfonso.

HTH & HAND


:-D
-- 
David T-G                      * It's easier to fight for one's principles
(play) davidtg@justpickone.org * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie
(work) davidtgwork@justpickone.org
http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/    Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg!


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Re: suggestion/rant re: install method

[Christopher Faylor]

On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:26:59AM -0500, David T-G wrote:
>Alfonso, et al --
>
>...and then Urdaneta, Alfonso E (N-Summitt Technologies) said...
>% 
>% I just tried to download and install cygwin - and I have to say the install
>% is highly frustrating.
>
>I must admit that I know what you mean.
>
>
>% 
>% While I understand the motivation for the granular installer, I think that
>% you should still provide the option of a monolithic download.  Unfortunatly
>% many of the "mirrors" that I had to chose from only mirrored a subset of the
>% modules that I needed to download for my full install.
>
>I don't feel a need to go back to a monolithic download, but keeping
>mirrors up to date really is a challenge.

The mirror list is supposed to be up-to-date modulo 12 hours or so.  Can
you provide an example mirror site that is badly out-of-date?

cgf

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Re: suggestion/rant re: install method

[David T-G]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1699 bytes --]

Christopher, et al --

...and then Christopher Faylor said...
% 
% On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:26:59AM -0500, David T-G wrote:
% >
% >...and then Urdaneta, Alfonso E (N-Summitt Technologies) said...
% >% 
...
% >% many of the "mirrors" that I had to chose from only mirrored a subset of the
% >% modules that I needed to download for my full install.
% >
% >I don't feel a need to go back to a monolithic download, but keeping
% >mirrors up to date really is a challenge.
% 
% The mirror list is supposed to be up-to-date modulo 12 hours or so.  Can
% you provide an example mirror site that is badly out-of-date?

I didn't know that it was 12 hours (but figured that it had to be
something) and can't provide any examples at the moment (I haven't
reinstalled since finally getting it right), but I'll keep an eye
out for them and take a look at how they compare.  You may recall my
endless agony with cygintl1; I *believe* I downloaded from uiarchive,
but it may be that I trashed everything including the directory and then
simply had that site in my list for an update after having gotten all of
the pieces together later.


% 
% cgf
% 
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Thanks & HAND

:-D
-- 
David T-G                      * It's easier to fight for one's principles
(play) davidtg@justpickone.org * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie
(work) davidtgwork@justpickone.org
http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/    Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg!


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Re: suggestion/rant re: install method

[Nicholas Wourms]

Hi,

Another thing you can do, besides wget, is use rsync.  It will preserve
the sirectory structure and everything in the same manner as cvs.  If you
are terribly paranoid, you can even rsync directly from
sources.redhat.com, though try mirrors.rcn.net first as we wouldn't want
to overload sources ;).

Cheers,
Nicholas
--- "Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)" <lhall@rfk.com> wrote:
> At 11:06 AM 5/29/2002, Urdaneta, Alfonso E (N-Summitt Technologies)
> wrote:
> >I just tried to download and install cygwin - and I have to say the
> install
> >is highly frustrating.
> >
> >While I understand the motivation for the granular installer, I think
> that
> >you should still provide the option of a monolithic download. 
> Unfortunatly
> >many of the "mirrors" that I had to chose from only mirrored a subset
> of the
> >modules that I needed to download for my full install.
> >
> >I don't know how many times I had to deal with dialogs telling me
> "download
> >failed" and then choose a different mirror only to be told "the server
> has
> >an older version of setup.ini than the one you were using, continue ?",
> >forcing me to go through the installer over and over and over till
> finally I
> >now have a cygwin install that is about 80% functional, and I have to
> go
> >back over it and find all the pieces that didn't come down.
> >
> >One thing that you guys may not have considered is that the current
> >"internet-only" method is unsuitable for classified environments.  I
> have
> >worked (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) in a "secure" environment
> which
> >does not allow a live connection to the internet.  In that sort of
> >environment we are allowed to stick CDs into the machine to install
> >software, but downloading is expressly prohibited.  
> >
> >By refusing to provide a "monolithic install" option that users such as
> >myself can download and burn to CD to be used on non-networked
> machines, you
> >have essentially made cygwin a non-option for us.  
> >
> >And please, any comments such "just plug it in for the download - a
> firewall
> >is more than adequate protection" are worthless - those of use that do
> >government work deal with beaurocrats, not reasonable technically
> compentent
> >human beings.  
> >
> >Just an example - at my last government job I was not allowed to bring
> a
> >CD-RW into the lab even though all the machines had _only_ CDROM
> drives. (
> >yes, you read that correctly, read only drives NOT a writeable ones ).
> >
> >I'm also concerned about the wasted bandwith and the delays induced by
> >downloading.  
> >
> >I have a stack of CDs that I have burned with the tools that I normally
> >download such as gcc, xemacs, jdk, etc.  I use these whenever I setup a
> new
> >machine.  It seems that downloading 200-300M worth of stuff per machine
> is
> >ludicrous - especially if you are going to configure 20-50 developer
> >workstations, which I have had to do.  Seems like an excessive drain on
> your
> >mirror sites, and the internet in general.
> >
> >Alfonso.
> 
> 
> You don't say but I'm going to assume that you're trying to download the
> packages with the "Download from Internet" option.  Try the "Install 
> from Internet" option.  This may result in less problems downloading
> (there
> was some trouble with the "Download from Internet".  This may no longer
> be
> an issue.  I'm not sure.  But try it.  Make sure you use the latest
> setup.exe
> available from www.cygwin.com (2.218.2.9).  Note, I'm not actually
> asking 
> you to do the install itself.  You can stop the process after the
> download
> if you like.  Either way, you'll have a machine with a directory of
> packages
> that you can then transfer to CD.  If this isn't satisfactory, there's
> always
> wget.  Use it to mirror any number of sites you want.  Transfer the
> results
> to CD.
> 
> As for issues with various mirrors, you can pick multiple mirrors at a
> time
> with setup.  You know that, right?
> 
> Actually, all of these tid-bits of information are available in the
> email
> archives.  It's worth your while to peruse what's there when you have
> problems.
> 
> 
> Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
> RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
> 838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
> Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX
> 
> 
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Re: suggestion/rant re: install method

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 11:06 AM 5/29/2002, Urdaneta, Alfonso E (N-Summitt Technologies) wrote:
>I just tried to download and install cygwin - and I have to say the install
>is highly frustrating.
>
>While I understand the motivation for the granular installer, I think that
>you should still provide the option of a monolithic download.  Unfortunatly
>many of the "mirrors" that I had to chose from only mirrored a subset of the
>modules that I needed to download for my full install.
>
>I don't know how many times I had to deal with dialogs telling me "download
>failed" and then choose a different mirror only to be told "the server has
>an older version of setup.ini than the one you were using, continue ?",
>forcing me to go through the installer over and over and over till finally I
>now have a cygwin install that is about 80% functional, and I have to go
>back over it and find all the pieces that didn't come down.
>
>One thing that you guys may not have considered is that the current
>"internet-only" method is unsuitable for classified environments.  I have
>worked (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) in a "secure" environment which
>does not allow a live connection to the internet.  In that sort of
>environment we are allowed to stick CDs into the machine to install
>software, but downloading is expressly prohibited.  
>
>By refusing to provide a "monolithic install" option that users such as
>myself can download and burn to CD to be used on non-networked machines, you
>have essentially made cygwin a non-option for us.  
>
>And please, any comments such "just plug it in for the download - a firewall
>is more than adequate protection" are worthless - those of use that do
>government work deal with beaurocrats, not reasonable technically compentent
>human beings.  
>
>Just an example - at my last government job I was not allowed to bring a
>CD-RW into the lab even though all the machines had _only_ CDROM drives. (
>yes, you read that correctly, read only drives NOT a writeable ones ).
>
>I'm also concerned about the wasted bandwith and the delays induced by
>downloading.  
>
>I have a stack of CDs that I have burned with the tools that I normally
>download such as gcc, xemacs, jdk, etc.  I use these whenever I setup a new
>machine.  It seems that downloading 200-300M worth of stuff per machine is
>ludicrous - especially if you are going to configure 20-50 developer
>workstations, which I have had to do.  Seems like an excessive drain on your
>mirror sites, and the internet in general.
>
>Alfonso.


You don't say but I'm going to assume that you're trying to download the
packages with the "Download from Internet" option.  Try the "Install 
from Internet" option.  This may result in less problems downloading (there
was some trouble with the "Download from Internet".  This may no longer be
an issue.  I'm not sure.  But try it.  Make sure you use the latest setup.exe
available from www.cygwin.com (2.218.2.9).  Note, I'm not actually asking 
you to do the install itself.  You can stop the process after the download
if you like.  Either way, you'll have a machine with a directory of packages
that you can then transfer to CD.  If this isn't satisfactory, there's always
wget.  Use it to mirror any number of sites you want.  Transfer the results
to CD.

As for issues with various mirrors, you can pick multiple mirrors at a time
with setup.  You know that, right?

Actually, all of these tid-bits of information are available in the email
archives.  It's worth your while to peruse what's there when you have
problems.


Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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