From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5412 invoked by alias); 23 Jul 2002 13:13:54 -0000 Mailing-List: contact cygwin-help@cygwin.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Subscribe: List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com Mail-Followup-To: cygwin@cygwin.com Received: (qmail 5403 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 13:13:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ns.helixdigital.com) (68.15.28.22) by sources.redhat.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 13:13:53 -0000 Received: from ns.helixdigital.com (alcocer@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns.helixdigital.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6NDDrfs031607 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alcocer@localhost) by ns.helixdigital.com (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g6NDCbmC017729 for cygwin@cygwin.com; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:05:00 -0000 From: Dario Alcocer To: cygwin@cygwin.com Subject: Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions" Message-ID: <20020723061237.B9184@ns.helixdigital.com> References: <20020721184520.A28726@ns.helixdigital.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from raphael@oninet.pt on Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:25:50PM +0100 X-SW-Source: 2002-07/txt/msg01851.txt.bz2 On Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:25:50PM +0100, Raphael wrote: > On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote: > > [snip] > Moderation? Don´t start me on that one. In the end Moderation only > resolves in new not cygwin lists that will attrackt trolls to the cygwin > list. I'm glad to eleborate if this is not clear. No need to elaborate, I'm well aware of the "double-edged sword" aspects of moderation. Besides, if you read again what I wrote, I'm referring to a very limited form of moderation, which only affects the initial post made by all subscribers. That hardly seems like a detail to "get started" on. > Who asked them to school new users? Now don't get me wrong, anybody's > contribution is valuable and special. But if people think they have to > school fellow list members and are irritated by that it might be a good > idea for them to take some time of? Well, you're right, no one *asked* them. However, as ESR's essay points out, community standards don't come for free. They have to be enforced and communicated (what I referred to as "schooling"), and the problem with many new users that participate in public mailing lists is that they don't realize that a certain standard of conduct is expected of them in order to keep the mailing list working for the common good. Now granted, you may argue that there are other ways to familiarize new users with the standards of conduct. You seem to prefer the FAQ. I guess I prefer the immediate feedback provided by auto-reply to initial posters. > [snip] > I subscibed > using the site and remeber clearly that there was somekind of incentive > there and if I'm not mistaking the manual states something alike. What a > lot of people forget is that for a newbee it is not always clear where to > find the right answer or faq. Absolutely, I agree with you, it's not always clear. In fact, I think you may have just corroborated what I've observed for a long time; information is only *useful* when you are *expecting* to receive it. Trying to tell a new user how to ask questions in the subscription confirmation is *not* effective because it is *ignored*. The new user isn't *ready* to hear about "how to ask smart questions" immediately upon subscribing. The information is irrelevant at that moment, since they're *not* asking a question at that particular moment. However, they will be more receptive when they are trying to get help for the first time; this is the correct time to tell them. The moment they're ready to ask their first question on the list is *precisely* the moment you want to inform them of the minimum requirements that they are expected to meet. This the reason why I think blocking first-time posts and automatically informing the requester they can re-submit their question (after they've read ESR's essay) is better. > Well as you noticed I think it's better to give 'hardworking people' their > own list where they will not be bothered. I could even agree to make that > accesible by an exame ;-) Well, I don't agree, but of course, you have the right to your opinion :-P Seriously, though, I don't think that you want to separate newbies because then, newbies will probably never become gurus. We *want* more gurus, because the more gurus we have, the more questions get answered, and by extension, the more newbies that are helped. My impression is that Chris, Chuck and the other gurus don't mind answering questions, per se. They just would like the requesters to do a little homework before they ask, that's all. > > == Footnotes == > > > > [1] - One other way to do this is to include a link to the ESR essay > > in the confirmation e-mail subscribers receive, but I *doubt* very > > much that most would take the time to read it then. However, if > > we instead wait to ask them when they're focused on getting their > > first question answered, we can hopefully start teaching them the > > fine art of asking questions. > > Is that what this list is for? No, but surely if *everyone* on this list (gurus and newbies alike) asked questions the "smart way" we'd all reap the benefits of a better and more fruitful mailing list. Thanks for your comments, you've helped me sharpen my thinking on this somewhat controversial topic. -- Dario Alcocer -- Sr. Software Developer, Helix Digital Inc. alcocer@helixdigital.com -- http://www.helixdigital.com -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/