* Re: ls Question
@ 2003-03-31 15:15 Demmer, Thomas
2003-03-31 22:48 ` ls Question + bug? Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail)
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Demmer, Thomas @ 2003-03-31 15:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'svartsjel@gmx.net'; +Cc: 'cygwin@cygwin.com'
Do an
ls --show-control-chars
from ls --help:
--show-control-chars show non graphic characters as-is (default
unless program is `ls' and output is a
terminal)
I have
alias ls=/bin/ls.exe --show-control-chars
in my /etc/profile.
Ciao
Tom
Thomas Demmer
Kraft Foods R&D Munich
Phone: +49 89 62738-6302
Fax: +49 89 62738-86302
Thought of the Day:
A real friend isn't someone you use once and then throw away.
A real friend is someone you can use over and over again.
--
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* RE: ls Question + bug?
2003-03-31 15:15 ls Question Demmer, Thomas
@ 2003-03-31 22:48 ` Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail)
2003-03-31 23:09 ` Thorsten Kampe
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) @ 2003-03-31 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1609 bytes --]
> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
> Of Demmer, Thomas
> I have
> alias ls=/bin/ls.exe --show-control-chars
>
> in my /etc/profile.
>
According to Bash info-pages: Seems to me that it is better to define a
shell function...
It should be something like:
$ ls () { /bin/ls --show-control-chars $@; }
$ ls
<some files>
$ echo >åäöÃ
ÃÃ
$ ls
<some files> åäöÃ
ÃÃ
NOTE: Do NOT change "/bin/ls" into just "ls", I believe this creates a
hazardous back/loop reference which will eventually hang the computer.
A test for loop this is obviously done in the builtin "alias" but not
here(?)
Question to more knowledgable people:
Can the code for alias be reused/converted for shell functions?
Before realizing the potenial problem I had it hang my machine.
How to do "the hang"... ;-)
Windows 98SE:
Right klick on desktop -> New -> Shortcut ->
Enter this:
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:30720 /c C:\Program\cygwin\cygwin.bat
Click "Next" and then "Finish"
Now start Bash with the new shortcut and enter the following:
1) $ ls () { ls --show-control-chars $@; }
2) $ ls
<long delay> consuming memory...
CTRL-C seems to work...
3) $ ls
Really soon -> a dead computer. (Powercycling is all that works after that)
NOTE:
at 2)
strace >ls-strace.txt ls
works i.e. doesn't hang.
My guess: strace doesn't launch the shell function.
Attached ls-strace.txt -> $ ls <an empty dir>
also at 2)
close Bash and your memory is free'd.
Cygwin version: Latest almost everything, updated yesterday or so.
/Hannu E K Nevalainen, Mariefred, Sweden
--END OF MESSAGE--
[-- Attachment #2: ls-strace.txt --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 26604 bytes --]
**********************************************
Program name: C:\PROGRAM\CYGWIN\BIN\LS.EXE (800159)
App version: 1001.8, api: 0.34
DLL version: 1003.22, api: 0.78
DLL build: 2003-03-18 09:20
OS version: Windows 98-4.10
Heap size: 402653184
Date/Time: 2003-03-31 23:41:41
**********************************************
13624 77828 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45804D0: !C:=C:\Program\cygwin\bin
8058 85886 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45804F0: BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 T4
24632 110518 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580510: CLASSPATH=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\QTJava.zip;
3676 114194 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580540: CMDLINE=bash --login -i
13628 127822 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580560: COMSPEC=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM
26103 153925 [main] LS 800159 parse_options: tty 1001
10003 163928 [main] LS 800159 parse_options: title 0
13890 177818 [main] LS 800159 parse_options: glob (called func)
16089 193907 [main] LS 800159 parse_options: returning
2926 196833 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580588: CYGWIN=tty notitle glob
27120 223953 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45805C8: DOS=c:\windows\command
25872 249825 [main] LS 800159 getwinenv: can't set native for HOME= since no environ yet
14096 263921 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu, no-keep-rel, no-add-slash)
3889 267810 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu)
4045 271855 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /home/Hannu = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu)
12060 283915 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: posix /home/Hannu
2879 286794 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: native HOME=C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu
7106 293900 [main] LS 800159 posify: env var converted to HOME=/home/Hannu
10043 303943 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580610: HOME=/home/Hannu
16870 320813 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580758: HOMEDRIVE=C:
7483 328296 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45805E8: HOMEPATH=\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu
6030 334326 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580770: LESSCHARSET=latin1
9593 343919 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580788: LM_LICENSE_FILE=C:\Program\ModelSim\license.dat
13882 357801 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45807C0: MAKE_MODE=unix
26076 383877 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45807D8: MANPATH=:/usr/ssl/man
6912 390789 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45807F8: OLDPWD=/home/Hannu
5994 396783 [main] LS 800159 getwinenv: can't set native for PATH= since no environ yet
872 397655 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: src .
1468 399123 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, no-keep-rel, no-add-slash)
680 399803 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z)
1077 400880 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /home/Hannu/z = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z)
917 401797 [main] LS 800159 cwdstuff::get: posix /home/Hannu/z
740 402537 [main] LS 800159 cwdstuff::get: (/home/Hannu/z) = cwdstuff::get (0x254F7D0, 260, 1, 0), errno 0
782 403319 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: /home/Hannu/z = normalize_posix_path (.)
651 403970 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/home/Hannu/z)
786 404756 [main] LS 800159 set_flags: flags: binary (0x2)
658 405414 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /home/Hannu/z, dst C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, flags 0xA, rc 0
1117 406531 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: not a symlink
498 407029 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: 0 = symlink.check (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, 0x254F490) (0xA)
280 407309 [main] LS 800159 path_conv::check: root_dir(C:\), this->path(C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z), set_has_acls(0)
566 407875 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\local\bin, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
407 408282 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\usr\local\bin = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\local\bin)
274 408556 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /usr/local/bin = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\local\bin)
321 408877 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
272 409149 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\bin = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin)
268 409417 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /usr/bin = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin)
268 409685 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
657 410342 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\bin = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin)
274 410616 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /usr/bin = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin)
269 410885 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\WINDOWS, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
263 411148 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\WINDOWS = normalize_win32_path (c:\WINDOWS)
265 411413 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS = conv_to_posix_path (c:\WINDOWS)
273 411686 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\WINDOWS\COMMAND, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
264 411950 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\WINDOWS\COMMAND = normalize_win32_path (c:\WINDOWS\COMMAND)
271 412221 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/COMMAND = conv_to_posix_path (c:\WINDOWS\COMMAND)
267 412488 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
263 412751 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE)
268 413019 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE)
269 413288 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PACK, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
267 413555 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PACK = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PACK)
426 413981 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PACK = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PACK)
275 414256 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\E4, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
267 414523 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\E4 = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\E4)
269 414792 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/E4 = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\E4)
267 415059 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PFE, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
268 415327 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PFE = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PFE)
269 415596 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PFE = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PFE)
270 415866 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\RAR, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
263 416129 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\RAR = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\RAR)
271 416400 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/RAR = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\RAR)
276 416676 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\MATLABR12\BIN\WIN32, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
277 416953 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\MATLABR12\BIN\WIN32 = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\MATLABR12\BIN\WIN32)
269 417222 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MATLABR12/BIN/WIN32 = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\MATLABR12\BIN\WIN32)
294 417516 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC31_DOS\BIN, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
267 417783 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\BC31_DOS\BIN = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC31_DOS\BIN)
268 418051 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC31_DOS/BIN = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC31_DOS\BIN)
268 418319 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC5\BIN, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
269 418588 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\BC5\BIN = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC5\BIN)
316 418904 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC5/BIN = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC5\BIN)
268 419172 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (., keep-rel, no-add-slash)
260 419432 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: . = conv_to_posix_path (.)
264 419696 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\MODELSIM\WIN32XOEM, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
267 419963 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\MODELSIM\WIN32XOEM = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\MODELSIM\WIN32XOEM)
270 420233 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MODELSIM/WIN32XOEM = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\MODELSIM\WIN32XOEM)
269 420502 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\WIN98RK, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
273 420775 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\WIN98RK = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\WIN98RK)
645 421420 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/WIN98RK = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\WIN98RK)
284 421704 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\X11R6\bin, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
266 421970 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\usr\X11R6\bin = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\X11R6\bin)
273 422243 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /usr/X11R6/bin = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\X11R6\bin)
271 422514 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\scripts, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
269 422783 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\scripts = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\scripts)
273 423056 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /home/Hannu/scripts = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\scripts)
270 423326 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\rexx, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
268 423594 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\rexx = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\rexx)
430 424024 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /home/Hannu/rexx = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\rexx)
274 424298 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\bin, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
265 424563 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\bin = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\bin)
271 424834 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /home/Hannu/bin = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\bin)
721 425555 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: posix /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/COMMAND:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PACK:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/E4:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PFE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/RAR:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MATLABR12/BIN/WIN32:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC31_DOS/BIN:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC5/BIN:.:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MODELSIM/WIN32XOEM:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/WIN98RK:/usr/X11R6/bin:/home/Hannu/scripts:/home/Hannu/rexx:/home/Hannu/bin
363 425918 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: native PATH=C:\Program\cygwin\usr\local\bin;C:\Program\cygwin\bin;C:\Program\cygwin\bin;c:\WINDOWS;c:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE;c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PACK;c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\E4;c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PFE;c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\RAR;c:\PROGRAM\MATLABR12\BIN\WIN32;c:\PROGRAM\BC31_DOS\BIN;c:\PROGRAM\BC5\BIN;.;c:\PROGRAM\MODELSIM\WIN32XOEM;c:\PROGRAM\WIN98RK;C:\Program\cygwin\usr\X11R6\bin;C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\scripts;C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\rexx;C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\bin
312 426230 [main] LS 800159 posify: env var converted to PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/COMMAND:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PACK:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/E4:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PFE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/RAR:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MATLABR12/BIN/WIN32:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC31_DOS/BIN:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC5/BIN:.:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MODELSIM/WIN32XOEM:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/WIN98RK:/usr/X11R6/bin:/home/Hannu/scripts:/home/Hannu/rexx:/home/Hannu/bin
533 426763 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45809F8: PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/COMMAND:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PACK:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/E4:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PFE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/RAR:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MATLABR12/BIN/WIN32:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC31_DOS/BIN:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC5/BIN:.:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MODELSIM/WIN32XOEM:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/WIN98RK:/usr/X11R6/bin:/home/Hannu/scripts:/home/Hannu/rexx:/home/Hannu/bin
538 427301 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580810: PROMPT=$p$g
479 427780 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580820: PS1=\[\033]0;\w\007
\033[32m\]\u@\h \[\033[33m\w\033[0m\]
$
481 428261 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580868: PWD=/home/Hannu/z
473 428734 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580880: QTJAVA=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\QTJava.zip
528 429262 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45808A8: RS=C:\re-subst.txt
475 429737 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45808C0: SHELL=
473 430210 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45808D0: SHLVL=1
475 430685 [main] LS 800159 getwinenv: can't set native for TEMP= since no environ yet
476 431161 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (d:\TEMP, no-keep-rel, no-add-slash)
259 431420 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: d:\TEMP = normalize_win32_path (d:\TEMP)
400 431820 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/d/TEMP = conv_to_posix_path (d:\TEMP)
2362 434182 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: posix /cygdrive/d/TEMP
260 434442 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: native TEMP=d:\TEMP
251 434693 [main] LS 800159 posify: env var converted to TEMP=/cygdrive/d/TEMP
466 435159 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4581428: TEMP=/cygdrive/d/TEMP
473 435632 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580928: TERM=cygwin
481 436113 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580938: TEXMF={/usr/share/lilypond/1.6.8,/usr/share/texmf}
484 436597 [main] LS 800159 getwinenv: can't set native for TMP= since no environ yet
480 437077 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (d:\TEMP, no-keep-rel, no-add-slash)
258 437335 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: d:\TEMP = normalize_win32_path (d:\TEMP)
265 437600 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/d/TEMP = conv_to_posix_path (d:\TEMP)
690 438290 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: posix /cygdrive/d/TEMP
252 438542 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: native TMP=d:\TEMP
291 438833 [main] LS 800159 posify: env var converted to TMP=/cygdrive/d/TEMP
475 439308 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4581538: TMP=/cygdrive/d/TEMP
518 439826 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580970: USER=Hannu
479 440305 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580990: WINBOOTDIR=C:\WINDOWS
470 440775 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45809B0: WINDIR=C:\WINDOWS
469 441244 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45809C8: X=c:\program\diverse
617 441861 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4581648: Y=c:\program\bc31_dos\bin
469 442330 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4581668: _=/usr/bin/strace
261 442591 [main] LS 800159 pinfo_init: pid 800159, pgid 800159
265 442856 [main] LS 800159 dtable::extend: size 32, fds 0x615F03C8
313 443169 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: src /etc/passwd
261 443430 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: /etc/passwd = normalize_posix_path (/etc/passwd)
262 443692 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/etc/passwd)
409 444101 [main] LS 800159 set_flags: flags: binary (0x2)
257 444358 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /etc/passwd, dst C:\Program\cygwin\etc\passwd, flags 0xA, rc 0
731 445089 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: not a symlink
272 445361 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: 0 = symlink.check (C:\Program\cygwin\etc\passwd, 0x254F6D0) (0xA)
269 445630 [main] LS 800159 path_conv::check: root_dir(C:\), this->path(C:\Program\cygwin\etc\passwd), set_has_acls(0)
379 446009 [main] LS 800159 etc::test_file_change: FindFirstFile succeeded
272 446281 [main] LS 800159 etc::test_file_change: fn[1] C:\Program\cygwin\etc\passwd res 1
255 446536 [main] LS 800159 etc::init: fn[1] C:\Program\cygwin\etc\passwd, curr_ix 1
274 446810 [main] LS 800159 pwdgrp::load: /etc/passwd
1029 447839 [main] LS 800159 pwdgrp::load: /etc/passwd curr_lines 1
257 448096 [main] LS 800159 pwdgrp::load: /etc/passwd load succeeded
262 448358 [main] LS 800159 cygheap_user::ontherange: what 2, pw 0x45816B0
265 448623 [main] LS 800159 cygheap_user::ontherange: HOME is already in the environment /home/Hannu
1409 450032 [main] LS 800159 sigproc_init: process/signal handling enabled(1001)
625 450657 [sig] LS 800159 wait_sig: sigcatch_nonmain 0xEC, sigcatch_main 0xF0
403 451060 [sig] LS 800159 wait_sig: Ready. dwProcessid -800159
-719 450341 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio: _cygwin_istext_for_stdio (0)
1365 451706 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio: _cifs: fd not open
305 452011 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio: _cygwin_istext_for_stdio (1)
260 452271 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio: _cifs: fd not open
265 452536 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio: _cygwin_istext_for_stdio (2)
261 452797 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio: _cifs: fd not open
53927 506724 [main] LS 800159 tty_list::allocate_tty: console 5AC already associated with tty0
582 507306 [main] LS 800159 build_argv: argv[0] = 'ls'
253 507559 [main] LS 800159 build_argv: argc 1
285 507844 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: src /dev/piper
264 508108 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: /dev/piper = normalize_posix_path (/dev/piper)
267 508375 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/dev/piper)
272 508647 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /dev/piper, dst \dev\piper, flags 0x2, rc 0
397 509044 [main] LS 800159 dtable::build_fhandler: fd 0, fh 0x615F0558
280 509324 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: flags 0x10002, supplied_bin 0x0
264 509588 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: O_TEXT/O_BINARY set in flags 0x10000
264 509852 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: filemode set to binary
258 510110 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::init: created new fhandler_base for handle 0xDC, bin 1
267 510377 [main] LS 800159 dtable::init_std_file_from_handle: fd 0, handle 0xDC
1296 511673 [main] LS 800159 handle_to_fn: NtQueryObject failed
357 512030 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: src some disk file
265 512295 [main] LS 800159 cwdstuff::get: posix /home/Hannu/z
259 512554 [main] LS 800159 cwdstuff::get: (/home/Hannu/z) = cwdstuff::get (0x254F640, 260, 1, 0), errno 0
268 512822 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: /home/Hannu/z/some disk file = normalize_posix_path (some disk file)
264 513086 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/home/Hannu/z/some disk file)
347 513433 [main] LS 800159 set_flags: flags: binary (0x2)
262 513695 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /home/Hannu/z/some disk file, dst C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z\some disk file, flags 0xA, rc 0
646 514341 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: GetFileAttributes (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z\some disk file) failed
284 514625 [main] LS 800159 geterrno_from_win_error: windows error 2 == errno 2
345 514970 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: GetFileAttributes (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z\some disk file.lnk) failed
280 515250 [main] LS 800159 geterrno_from_win_error: windows error 2 == errno 2
259 515509 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: 0 = symlink.check (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z\some disk file, 0x254F300) (0xA)
316 515825 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/home/Hannu/z)
280 516105 [main] LS 800159 set_flags: flags: binary (0x2)
264 516369 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /home/Hannu/z, dst C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, flags 0xA, rc 0
359 516728 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: not a symlink
274 517002 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: 0 = symlink.check (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, 0x254F300) (0xA)
272 517274 [main] LS 800159 path_conv::check: root_dir(C:\), this->path(C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z\some disk file), set_has_acls(0)
321 517595 [main] LS 800159 dtable::build_fhandler: fd 1, fh 0x615F0678
274 517869 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: flags 0x10002, supplied_bin 0x0
262 518131 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: O_TEXT/O_BINARY set in flags 0x10000
259 518390 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: filemode set to binary
257 518647 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::init: created new fhandler_base for handle 0x158, bin 1
267 518914 [main] LS 800159 dtable::init_std_file_from_handle: fd 1, handle 0x158
277 519191 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: src /dev/pipew
261 519452 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: /dev/pipew = normalize_posix_path (/dev/pipew)
261 519713 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/dev/pipew)
272 519985 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /dev/pipew, dst \dev\pipew, flags 0x2, rc 0
287 520272 [main] LS 800159 dtable::build_fhandler: fd 2, fh 0x615F0748
272 520544 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: flags 0x10002, supplied_bin 0x0
376 520920 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: O_TEXT/O_BINARY set in flags 0x10000
267 521187 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: filemode set to binary
260 521447 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::init: created new fhandler_base for handle 0x128, bin 1
277 521724 [main] LS 800159 dtable::init_std_file_from_handle: fd 2, handle 0x128
325 522049 [main] ls 800159 dll_crt0_1: user_data->main 0x40170C
262 522311 [main] ls 800159 wait_for_sigthread: wait_sig_inited 0x6C
1215 523526 [main] ls 800159 isatty: 0 = isatty (1)
403 523929 [main] ls 800159 ioctl: fd 1, cmd 5401
635 524564 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_base::ioctl: ioctl (5401, 0x254FCE8)
267 524831 [main] ls 800159 ioctl: returning -1
1900 526731 [main] ls 800159 normalize_posix_path: src .
265 526996 [main] ls 800159 cwdstuff::get: posix /home/Hannu/z
261 527257 [main] ls 800159 cwdstuff::get: (/home/Hannu/z) = cwdstuff::get (0x254F7B0, 260, 1, 0), errno 0
269 527526 [main] ls 800159 normalize_posix_path: /home/Hannu/z = normalize_posix_path (.)
265 527791 [main] ls 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/home/Hannu/z)
270 528061 [main] ls 800159 set_flags: flags: binary (0x2)
259 528320 [main] ls 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /home/Hannu/z, dst C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, flags 0xA, rc 0
626 528946 [main] ls 800159 symlink_info::check: not a symlink
284 529230 [main] ls 800159 symlink_info::check: 0 = symlink.check (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, 0x254F470) (0xA)
7869 537099 [main] ls 800159 path_conv::check: root_dir(C:\), this->path(C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z), set_has_acls(0)
868 537967 [main] ls 800159 dtable::build_fhandler: fd -1, fh 0x615F0820
3978 541945 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_disk_file::opendir: 0x4583F28 = opendir (/home/Hannu/z)
819 542764 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_disk_file::readdir: 0x4583F2C = readdir (0x4583F28) (.)
782 543546 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_disk_file::readdir: 0x4583F2C = readdir (0x4583F28) (..)
917 544463 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_disk_file::readdir: 0x0 = readdir (0x4583F28)
683 545146 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_disk_file::closedir: 0 = closedir (0x4583F28)
3735 548881 [main] ls 800159 closedir: 0 = closedir (0x4583F28)
829 549710 [main] ls 800159 do_exit: do_exit (0)
523 550233 [main] ls 800159 void: 0x0 = signal (20, 0x1)
268 550501 [main] ls 800159 void: 0x0 = signal (1, 0x1)
384 550885 [main] ls 800159 void: 0x0 = signal (2, 0x1)
270 551155 [main] ls 800159 void: 0x0 = signal (3, 0x1)
263 551418 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_base::close: closing '/dev/piper' handle 0xDC
286 551704 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_base::close: closing '/home/Hannu/z/some disk file' handle 0x158
379 552083 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_base::close: closing '/dev/pipew' handle 0x128
293 552376 [main] ls 800159 sigproc_terminate: entering
263 552639 [main] ls 800159 proc_terminate: nchildren 0, nzombies 0
261 552900 [main] ls 800159 proc_terminate: leaving
270 553170 [main] ls 800159 do_exit: 800159 == sid 800159, send SIGHUP to children
483 553653 [main] ls 800159 __to_clock_t: dwHighDateTime 0, dwLowDateTime 0
261 553914 [main] ls 800159 __to_clock_t: total 00000000 00000000
263 554177 [main] ls 800159 __to_clock_t: dwHighDateTime 0, dwLowDateTime 0
259 554436 [main] ls 800159 __to_clock_t: total 00000000 00000000
25143 579579 [main] ls 800159 _pinfo::exit: Calling ExitProcess 0
[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 214 bytes --]
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: ls Question + bug?
2003-03-31 22:48 ` ls Question + bug? Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail)
@ 2003-03-31 23:09 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 9:31 ` Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail)
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Thorsten Kampe @ 2003-03-31 23:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
* Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 00:05 +0100)
>> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
>> Of Demmer, Thomas
>> I have
>> alias ls=/bin/ls.exe --show-control-chars
>>
>> in my /etc/profile.
>>
> According to Bash info-pages: Seems to me that it is better to define a
> shell function...
>
> It should be something like:
> [...]
>
> NOTE: Do NOT change "/bin/ls" into just "ls",
"command ls"
> I believe this creates a hazardous back/loop reference which will eventually
> hang the computer.
> [...]
> Before realizing the potenial problem I had it hang my machine.
>
> How to do "the hang"... ;-)
>
> Windows 98SE:
> Right klick on desktop -> New -> Shortcut ->
> Enter this:
> C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:30720 /c C:\Program\cygwin\cygwin.bat
> Click "Next" and then "Finish"
> Now start Bash with the new shortcut and enter the following:
> [...]
> <long delay> consuming memory...
> CTRL-C seems to work...
> 3) $ ls
> Really soon -> a dead computer. (Powercycling is all that works after that)
Your computer cannot be more dead than Windows 98 already is. Using an
Operating System would you give something like "maximum recursion
limit exceeded".
Thorsten
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* RE: ls Question + bug?
2003-03-31 23:09 ` Thorsten Kampe
@ 2003-04-01 9:31 ` Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail)
2003-04-01 14:49 ` Thorsten Kampe
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) @ 2003-04-01 9:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thorsten Kampe, cygwin
> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
> Of Thorsten Kampe
> > NOTE: Do NOT change "/bin/ls" into just "ls",
>
> "command ls"
Ahh... there you are ;-)
--8<--
> > Really soon -> a dead computer. (Powercycling is all that works
> after that)
>
> Your computer cannot be more dead than Windows 98 already is. Using an
> Operating System would you give something like "maximum recursion
> limit exceeded".
>
> Thorsten
;-) as I see it any MS generated "OS" has strange limitations/obscurities,
the above is an obvious one in W98.
Remember where it all began; "Quick And Dirty Dos" -> very few changes ->
"MS-DOS 1.0". IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell
about XP - but I would be surprised if the changes were that many.
I've been running _well known_ applications on NT that misbehaved every
day.
Sad but true, the availability of software is too good. An old machine as
it is - sets limits that I do not want to step beyond... "That's why the
lady is a tramp" ;-) .
/Hannu E K Nevalainen, Mariefred, Sweden
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: ls Question + bug?
2003-04-01 9:31 ` Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail)
@ 2003-04-01 14:49 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 15:10 ` Randall R Schulz
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Thorsten Kampe @ 2003-04-01 14:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
* Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 11:30 +0100)
>> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
>> Of Thorsten Kampe
>>> Really soon -> a dead computer. (Powercycling is all that works
>> after that)
>>
>> Your computer cannot be more dead than Windows 98 already is. Using an
>> Operating System would you give something like "maximum recursion
>> limit exceeded".
>
> ;-) as I see it any MS generated "OS" has strange limitations/obscurities,
> the above is an obvious one in W98.
> Remember where it all began; "Quick And Dirty Dos" -> very few changes ->
> "MS-DOS 1.0".
NT 4, 5 ("2000"), 5.1 ("XP") and now 5.2 ("Server 2003") have a stable
kernel that doesn't have its roots in DOS.
> IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell about XP - but I
> would be surprised if the changes were that many.
XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> I've been running _well known_ applications on NT that misbehaved every day.
But they didn't normally crush the whole system.
Thorsten
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* Re: ls Question + bug?
2003-04-01 14:49 ` Thorsten Kampe
@ 2003-04-01 15:10 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 15:46 ` Peter Davis
2003-04-01 15:52 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 15:14 ` Igor Pechtchanski
[not found] ` <Pine.GSO.4.44.0304011012400.21921-100000@slinky.cs.nyu.edu >
2 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-01 15:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Thorsten,
At 06:42 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>* Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 11:30 +0100)
> >>
>
> > IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell about XP - but I
> > would be surprised if the changes were that many.
>
>XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
Hardly.
NT 4 and 2000 have always been perfectly stable and reliable for me,
running for days and weeks on end without trouble. They have additional
(subjective) benefit of not having garish, cartoonish GUIs, though 2K
shows some tendencies. Fortunately, most of the silly stuff can be turned off.
Marginal drivers and flaky hardware are not Microsoft's fault, though
MS may not make it easy to produce a good driver, I don't really know
how hard it is.
> > I've been running _well known_ applications on NT that misbehaved
> every day.
"Well known" does not imply "high quality." Nor does the presence of a
malfunction in itself point specifically to application problems, OS
problems, driver problems or hardware problems.
>But they didn't normally crush the whole system.
"Crush?"
>Thorsten
Randall Schulz
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: ls Question + bug?
2003-04-01 14:49 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 15:10 ` Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-01 15:14 ` Igor Pechtchanski
[not found] ` <Pine.GSO.4.44.0304011012400.21921-100000@slinky.cs.nyu.edu >
2 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Igor Pechtchanski @ 2003-04-01 15:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thorsten Kampe; +Cc: cygwin
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> * Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 11:30 +0100)
> >> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf Of Thorsten Kampe
> >>> Really soon -> a dead computer. (Powercycling is all that works after that)
> >>
> >> Your computer cannot be more dead than Windows 98 already is. Using an
> >> Operating System would you give something like "maximum recursion
> >> limit exceeded".
> >
> > ;-) as I see it any MS generated "OS" has strange limitations/obscurities,
> > the above is an obvious one in W98.
> > Remember where it all began; "Quick And Dirty Dos" -> very few changes ->
> > "MS-DOS 1.0".
>
> NT 4, 5 ("2000"), 5.1 ("XP") and now 5.2 ("Server 2003") have a stable
> kernel that doesn't have its roots in DOS.
>
> > IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell about XP - but I
> > would be surprised if the changes were that many.
>
> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> [snip]
> Thorsten
... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
<http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
Igor
--
http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
|\ _,,,---,,_ pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ igor@watson.ibm.com
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow!
Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
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* Big Brother is Real
[not found] ` <Pine.GSO.4.44.0304011012400.21921-100000@slinky.cs.nyu.edu >
@ 2003-04-01 15:29 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 15:32 ` Igor Pechtchanski
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-01 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>
> > ...
> >
> > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > [snip]
> > Thorsten
>
>... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
OH. MY. GOD.
I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
> Igor
Randall Schulz
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 15:29 ` Big Brother is Real Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-01 15:32 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 16:09 ` Martin Gainty
2003-04-01 16:13 ` Thorsten Kampe
2 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Igor Pechtchanski @ 2003-04-01 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Randall R Schulz; +Cc: cygwin
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > > [snip]
> > > Thorsten
> >
> >... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> ><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>
> OH. MY. GOD.
>
> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>
> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
> > Igor
>
> Randall Schulz
Yeah, scary, isn't it? That's why I'm still on Win2k SP2 (crack away!).
Igor
P.S. Read the whole document, BTW - very educational... ;-)
--
http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
|\ _,,,---,,_ pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ igor@watson.ibm.com
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow!
Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
-- Leto II
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: ls Question + bug?
2003-04-01 15:10 ` Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-01 15:46 ` Peter Davis
2003-04-01 17:08 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 15:52 ` Thorsten Kampe
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Peter Davis @ 2003-04-01 15:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 07:10:07AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> Thorsten,
>
> At 06:42 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >* Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 11:30 +0100)
> >>>
> >
> >> IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell about XP -
> >but I
> >> would be surprised if the changes were that many.
> >
> >XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>
> Hardly.
>
> NT 4 and 2000 have always been perfectly stable and reliable for me,
> running for days and weeks on end without trouble. They have additional
> (subjective) benefit of not having garish, cartoonish GUIs, though 2K
> shows some tendencies. Fortunately, most of the silly stuff can be turned
> off.
NT4, 2000 and XP are all moderately stable, but none of them is what I
would call "rock solid". I've only had XP for less than a month, but
I've hung the OS several times, and hung Explorer, which is really
interesting. It's certainly possible to do this with NT and 2K also.
I don't consider any of these to be nearly as robust as *any* of the
*nix systems I'm familiar with, including IRIX, Solaris, and DEC Ultrix.
--
--------
Peter Davis
Funny stuff at http://www.pfdstudio.com
The artwork formerly shown as prints
List of resources for children's writers and illustrators at:
http://www.pfdstudio.com/cwrl.html
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: ls Question + bug?
2003-04-01 15:10 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 15:46 ` Peter Davis
@ 2003-04-01 15:52 ` Thorsten Kampe
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Thorsten Kampe @ 2003-04-01 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:10 +0100)
> At 06:42 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>* Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 11:30 +0100)
>>>>
>>
>>> IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell about XP - but I
>>> would be surprised if the changes were that many.
>>
>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>
> Hardly.
>
> NT 4 and 2000 have always been perfectly stable and reliable for me,
> running for days and weeks on end without trouble.
For me too. But I also had "issues" where for example an NT server
Kernel bluescreened - and *ate its whole C-Drive*. I've seen my
NetWare server complaining about "duplicate MAC addresses"[1] - *while
my NT servers where already silently rebooting*. 2000 was better but
premature.
>>> I've been running _well known_ applications on NT that misbehaved
>> every day.
>>>
>> But they didn't normally crush the whole system.
>
> "Crush?"
"Bring the 'system' (OS and all other running applications) down."
Thorsten
[1] Okay, my fault, but nonetheless
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 15:29 ` Big Brother is Real Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 15:32 ` Igor Pechtchanski
@ 2003-04-01 16:09 ` Martin Gainty
2003-04-01 16:21 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 16:13 ` Thorsten Kampe
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Martin Gainty @ 2003-04-01 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin, Randall R Schulz
if XP is such a good OS why did they strip out the JVM?
Some of us prefer writing component based Java over heavy and slow
monolithic Visual Basic apps.
I would purchase XP except I want to Manage my registry instead of Microsoft
'Nuf Said
Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randall R Schulz" <rrschulz@cris.com>
To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:29 AM
Subject: Big Brother is Real
> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > > [snip]
> > > Thorsten
> >
> >... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> ><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>
>
> OH. MY. GOD.
>
> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>
> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>
> > Igor
>
>
> Randall Schulz
>
>
> --
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>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 15:29 ` Big Brother is Real Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 15:32 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 16:09 ` Martin Gainty
@ 2003-04-01 16:13 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 16:24 ` Randall R Schulz
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Thorsten Kampe @ 2003-04-01 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>>
>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>
> OH. MY. GOD.
>
> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>
> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
Thorsten
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 16:09 ` Martin Gainty
@ 2003-04-01 16:21 ` Randall R Schulz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-01 16:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Martin,
I'm not sure I get your drift. I do mostly Java myself, but on every
system except MacOS one must install the Java SDK or runtime
separately. I doubt Sun likes that state of affairs and as a Java
developer, neither do I, but it's how things are right now.
Microsoft dispensed with Java because it's in a legal and market battle
with Sun. The JVM it was shipping was horridly out-of-date anyway and
not useful for serious Java application developers.
Anyway, in this thread we're talking about licensing terms and privacy,
not OS quality.
Randall Schulz
At 07:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>If XP is such a good OS why did they strip out the JVM? Some of us
>prefer writing component based Java over heavy and slow monolithic
>Visual Basic apps. I would purchase XP except I want to Manage my
>registry instead of Microsoft.
>
>'Nuf Said.
>
>Martin
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Randall R Schulz" <rrschulz@cris.com>
>To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:29 AM
>Subject: Big Brother is Real
>
>
> > At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> > >On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > > > [snip]
> > > > Thorsten
> > >
> > >... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> > ><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >
> >
> > OH. MY. GOD.
> >
> > I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >
> > I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
> >
> >
> > > Igor
> >
> >
> > Randall Schulz
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 16:13 ` Thorsten Kampe
@ 2003-04-01 16:24 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 16:38 ` Christopher Faylor
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-01 16:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Thorsten,
At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> > At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>
> >> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >
> > OH. MY. GOD.
> >
> > I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >
> > I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or
MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.
You're an odd bird, Thorsten.
>Thorsten
Randall Schulz
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 16:24 ` Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-01 16:38 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-01 17:05 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 17:14 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 17:03 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 17:56 ` günter strubinsky
2 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Faylor @ 2003-04-01 16:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 08:24:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>Thorsten,
>
>At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
>>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>>>>
>>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
>>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>>>
>>> OH. MY. GOD.
>>>
>>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>>>
>>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>>
>>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
>
>I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or
>MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.
I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
Sorry.
cgf
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 16:24 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 16:38 ` Christopher Faylor
@ 2003-04-01 17:03 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 18:14 ` Martin Gainty
2003-04-01 17:56 ` günter strubinsky
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Thorsten Kampe @ 2003-04-01 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 18:24 +0100)
> At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
>>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>>>>
>>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
>>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>>>
>>> OH. MY. GOD.
>>>
>>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>>>
>>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>>
>> You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>> is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
>
> I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or
> MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.
I *know*. This was a joohoke.
You won't move to Linux because you're a die-hard Cygwinist and cgf
won't allow.
Thorsten
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 16:38 ` Christopher Faylor
@ 2003-04-01 17:05 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 17:19 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-01 17:21 ` Corinna Vinschen
2003-04-01 17:14 ` Randall R Schulz
1 sibling, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-01 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Herr Doktor Faylor,
At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 08:24:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >Thorsten,
> >
> >At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> >>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>>>
> >>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >>>
> >>> OH. MY. GOD.
> >>>
> >>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >>>
> >>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
> >>
> >>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
> >>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
> >
> >I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or
> >MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.
>
>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>
>Sorry.
Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>cgf
Randall Roy (heh!) Schulz
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: ls Question + bug?
2003-04-01 15:46 ` Peter Davis
@ 2003-04-01 17:08 ` Thorsten Kampe
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Thorsten Kampe @ 2003-04-01 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
* Peter Davis (03-04-01 17:46 +0100)
>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>>
>> Hardly.
>>
>> NT 4 and 2000 have always been perfectly stable and reliable for me,
>> running for days and weeks on end without trouble. They have additional
>> (subjective) benefit of not having garish, cartoonish GUIs, though 2K
>> shows some tendencies. Fortunately, most of the silly stuff can be turned
>> off.
>
> NT4, 2000 and XP are all moderately stable, but none of them is what I
> would call "rock solid".
Me, too. I'd only call XP "rock solid".
> I've only had XP for less than a month, but I've hung the OS several times,
> and hung Explorer, which is really interesting.
I've been using XP since September 2001. I'm not using Explorer[1],
just SpeedCommander. If the Explorer hangs, I kill it and restart it
via Task Manager - doesn't hurt the OS.
> It's certainly possible to do this with NT and 2K also.
Easily.
Okay, let's kill this thread. It's becomming quite offtopic...
Thorsten
[1] Okay it's the shell, but not for specific things
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 16:38 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-01 17:05 ` Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-01 17:14 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 17:19 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-02 1:54 ` Christopher Faylor
1 sibling, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-01 17:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Chris,
At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...
>Sorry.
>
>cgf
Randy
(there he is again)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:14 ` Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-01 17:19 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-02 1:54 ` Christopher Faylor
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Igor Pechtchanski @ 2003-04-01 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Randall R Schulz; +Cc: cygwin
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> Chris,
>
> At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>
> Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...
>
> >Sorry.
> >
> >cgf
>
> Randy
> (there he is again)
Randall,
Your evil twin is wheedling favors out of cgf (or trying to). Just
thought you should know...
Igor
--
http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
|\ _,,,---,,_ pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
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|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow!
Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
-- Leto II
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:05 ` Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-01 17:19 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-01 17:21 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 17:39 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 17:21 ` Corinna Vinschen
1 sibling, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Faylor @ 2003-04-01 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>>
>>Sorry.
>
>Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
singled out. That should do it.
cgf
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:05 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 17:19 ` Christopher Faylor
@ 2003-04-01 17:21 ` Corinna Vinschen
2003-04-01 17:31 ` Igor Pechtchanski
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Corinna Vinschen @ 2003-04-01 17:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >
> >Sorry.
>
> Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
You didn't read your discworld careful enough. It's spelled
"Yeth, marthter"
Corinna
(which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
--
Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Developer mailto:cygwin@cygwin.com
Red Hat, Inc.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:19 ` Christopher Faylor
@ 2003-04-01 17:21 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 17:39 ` Randall R Schulz
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Igor Pechtchanski @ 2003-04-01 17:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003@09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >>
> >>Sorry.
> >
> >Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>
> Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
> explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
> singled out. That should do it.
>
> cgf
Ouch!
Igor
P.S. OTOH, he'll actuallly *deserve* that gold star then... :-)
--
http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
|\ _,,,---,,_ pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ igor@watson.ibm.com
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow!
Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
-- Leto II
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:21 ` Corinna Vinschen
@ 2003-04-01 17:31 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 18:10 ` Corinna Vinschen
2003-04-01 18:12 ` pd
0 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Igor Pechtchanski @ 2003-04-01 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> > >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> > >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> > >
> > >Sorry.
> >
> > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>
> You didn't read your discworld careful enough. It's spelled
>
> "Yeth, marthter"
>
> Corinna
> (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
Corinna,
I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.
Igor (not *that* one, yet)
--
http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
|\ _,,,---,,_ pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ igor@watson.ibm.com
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski
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Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
-- Leto II
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:19 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-01 17:21 ` Igor Pechtchanski
@ 2003-04-01 17:39 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 18:25 ` Christopher Faylor
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-01 17:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Chris,
At 09:19 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >>
> >>Sorry.
> >
> >Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>
>Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
>explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
>singled out. That should do it.
OK, but I'm going to assume the operative word in this prescription for
penance is "try."
Obligatory disclaimer: I ANAL. You?
>cgf
RRS
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* RE: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 16:24 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 16:38 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-01 17:03 ` Thorsten Kampe
@ 2003-04-01 17:56 ` günter strubinsky
2003-04-01 18:07 ` Randall R Schulz
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: günter strubinsky @ 2003-04-01 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'Randall R Schulz', cygwin
I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do?
Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I
don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously
software can also turn it on ;)
If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is
hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the
last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool
can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition
is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my
life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones)
About the license policies integrated:
I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful:
The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and
software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is
that it cot hacked.
I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download
that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS
software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private
household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for
business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not
possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets
endless sources.
A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products.
I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual
Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-<char> functions are identical to the MS
way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no
copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on
the horizon.
If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous
documents, I see the sun rise!
guenter
-----Original Message-----
From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf Of
Randall R Schulz
Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 10:24
To: cygwin@cygwin.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real
Thorsten,
At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> > At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>
> >> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >
> > OH. MY. GOD.
> >
> > I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >
> > I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or
MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.
You're an odd bird, Thorsten.
>Thorsten
Randall Schulz
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* RE: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:56 ` günter strubinsky
@ 2003-04-01 18:07 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 18:50 ` günter strubinsky
2003-04-03 15:12 ` Steve Coleman
0 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-01 18:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Günter,
At 09:56 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do?
It opens a back door for MS snooping. DRM indeed!
>Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I
>don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously
>software can also turn it on ;)
Pentium IV has dispensed with the CPU ID, too. Bad PR, I guess...
>If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is
>hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the
>last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool
>can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition
>is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my
>life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones)
It's a constant battle since MS applications will continue to extend
their file formats while giving out specs only under non-disclosure.
This forces the Open Source community to reverse engineer the file
formats. But they're not cryptographic after all. They're meant to be
readily encoded and decoded by software, so it's a manageable problem.
Keep in mind that there's a world outside business, too, where things
like TeX, PostScript and PDF are the linguas franca. Many communities
either formally proscribe or informally eschew DOC and PPT files.
>About the license policies integrated:
>
>I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful:
>The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and
>software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is
>that it cot hacked.
I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it.
Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a
right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note,
the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say no"
to Microsoft.
>I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download
>that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS
>software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private
>household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for
>business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not
>possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets
>endless sources.
Some OEM versions are also excused from the call-back requirements.
>A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products.
>I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual
>Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-<char> functions are identical to the MS
>way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no
>copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on
>the horizon.
Many high-end applications, even jEdit, have user-configurable keyboard
mappings.
In other words: "Have it your way!"
>If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous
>documents, I see the sun rise!
It's still cloudy here.
>günter
Randall Schulz
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:31 ` Igor Pechtchanski
@ 2003-04-01 18:10 ` Corinna Vinschen
2003-04-01 18:22 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 18:38 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 18:12 ` pd
1 sibling, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Corinna Vinschen @ 2003-04-01 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
> >
> > You didn't read your discworld careful enough. It's spelled
> >
> > "Yeth, marthter"
> >
> > Corinna
> > (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
>
> Corinna,
>
> I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.
> Igor (not *that* one, yet)
A lisp would be already a good start. Just don't write programs with it...
Corinna
--
Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Developer mailto:cygwin@cygwin.com
Red Hat, Inc.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:31 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 18:10 ` Corinna Vinschen
@ 2003-04-01 18:12 ` pd
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: pd @ 2003-04-01 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> > > >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> > > >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> > > >
> > > >Sorry.
> > >
> > > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
> >
> > You didn't read your discworld careful enough. It's spelled
> >
> > "Yeth, marthter"
> >
> > Corinna
> > (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
>
> Corinna,
>
> I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.
You can develop in lisp today. I think Mumps is pretty much of a dead
language, though.
-pd
--
--------
Peter Davis
Funny stuff at http://www.pfdstudio.com
The artwork formerly shown as prints
List of resources for children's writers and illustrators at:
http://www.pfdstudio.com/cwrl.html
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:03 ` Thorsten Kampe
@ 2003-04-01 18:14 ` Martin Gainty
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Martin Gainty @ 2003-04-01 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thorsten Kampe; +Cc: cygwin
Linux STILL doesnt have driver support for the latest video cards..
In other words if you're working in Linux keep that VGA card !
-Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thorsten Kampe" <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de>
To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real
> * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 18:24 +0100)
> > At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> >>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>>>
> >>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >>>
> >>> OH. MY. GOD.
> >>>
> >>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >>>
> >>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
> >>
> >> You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
> >> is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
> >
> > I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or
> > MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.
>
> I *know*. This was a joohoke.
>
> You won't move to Linux because you're a die-hard Cygwinist and cgf
> won't allow.
>
>
> Thorsten
> --
> Content-Type: text/explicit; charset=ISO-8859-666 (Parental Advisory)
> Content-Transfer-Warning: message contains innuendos not suited for
> children under the age of 18
>
>
> --
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>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 18:10 ` Corinna Vinschen
@ 2003-04-01 18:22 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 18:38 ` Randall R Schulz
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Igor Pechtchanski @ 2003-04-01 18:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
> > >
> > > You didn't read your discworld careful enough. It's spelled
> > >
> > > "Yeth, marthter"
> > >
> > > Corinna
> > > (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
> >
> > Corinna,
> >
> > I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.
> > Igor (not *that* one, yet)
>
> A lisp would be already a good start. Just don't write programs with it...
> Corinna
Well, FWIW, I don't use Emacs, I use vim. I've written a fair share of
things in Scheme, though I prefer ML... We'll need to work on a HUMP,
though... :-)
Igor
--
http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
|\ _,,,---,,_ pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ igor@watson.ibm.com
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow!
The Lesser-Known Programming Language #12: LITHP
This otherwise unremarkable language is distinguished by the absence of an
"S" in its character set; users must substitute "TH". LITHP is said to be
useful in protheththing lithtth.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:39 ` Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-01 18:25 ` Christopher Faylor
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Faylor @ 2003-04-01 18:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:40:03AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>Chris,
>
>At 09:19 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>>>At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>>>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>>>>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry.
>>>
>>>Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>>
>>Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
>>explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
>>singled out. That should do it.
>
>OK, but I'm going to assume the operative word in this prescription for
>penance is "try."
>
>Obligatory disclaimer: I ANAL. You?
Nanananana. I'm not lissssttttennnning!
cgf
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 18:10 ` Corinna Vinschen
2003-04-01 18:22 ` Igor Pechtchanski
@ 2003-04-01 18:38 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 19:07 ` Corinna Vinschen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-01 18:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
At 10:10 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>A lisp would be already a good start. Just don't write programs with it...
Hey! Lisp is my all-time favorite language!
>Corinna
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* RE: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 18:07 ` Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-01 18:50 ` günter strubinsky
2003-04-01 18:56 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-03 15:12 ` Steve Coleman
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: günter strubinsky @ 2003-04-01 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'Randall R Schulz', cygwin
Thank you for the clarification, Randall!
Fred mentioned the firewall issue. I have actually zone alarm installed and
disallowed -permanently- the Microsoft software (with the exception as the
usual suspects, DNS, etc.) to contact outside. Now I am not so sure anymore
that I got hacked by anyone else but Bill. My system started to behave
erratically when I had outlook and other ms programs running:
The cpu was around 2-3% busy -never more during those phases- but everything
stalled. (Including the task manager). I start to believe that those progs
called home and waited for response from ms until they timed out which is
why my system froze for about 30-60 seconds, execute a few time slices and
then went into wait-state again. I have office xp installed...
Is there any info out how the snoop works?
-----Original Message-----
From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf Of
Randall R Schulz
Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 12:07
To: cygwin@cygwin.com
Subject: RE: Big Brother is Real
Günter,
At 09:56 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do?
It opens a back door for MS snooping. DRM indeed!
>Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id
(I
>don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously
>software can also turn it on ;)
Pentium IV has dispensed with the CPU ID, too. Bad PR, I guess...
>If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is
>hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the
>last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the
tool
>can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition
>is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my
>life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones)
It's a constant battle since MS applications will continue to extend
their file formats while giving out specs only under non-disclosure.
This forces the Open Source community to reverse engineer the file
formats. But they're not cryptographic after all. They're meant to be
readily encoded and decoded by software, so it's a manageable problem.
Keep in mind that there's a world outside business, too, where things
like TeX, PostScript and PDF are the linguas franca. Many communities
either formally proscribe or informally eschew DOC and PPT files.
>About the license policies integrated:
>
>I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful:
>The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and
>software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is
>that it cot hacked.
I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it.
Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a
right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note,
the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say no"
to Microsoft.
>I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download
>that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS
>software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private
>household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for
>business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not
>possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets
>endless sources.
Some OEM versions are also excused from the call-back requirements.
>A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products.
>I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual
>Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-<char> functions are identical to the
MS
>way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no
>copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope
on
>the horizon.
Many high-end applications, even jEdit, have user-configurable keyboard
mappings.
In other words: "Have it your way!"
>If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous
>documents, I see the sun rise!
It's still cloudy here.
>günter
Randall Schulz
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* RE: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 18:50 ` günter strubinsky
@ 2003-04-01 18:56 ` Randall R Schulz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-01 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Günter,
That first remark of mine was meant facetiously, of course. SP3 does
more than just open a privacy hole (I assume).
My guess (nope, I haven't done the research--I had my child-like
naivete destroyed by Igor's URL just today!) is that it's during system
update that you're going to be probed, but that's just a hunch.
It seems likely that were you to successfully configure a firewall to
prevent this system probing, you'd also prevent other more desirable
activity or would simply cause Windows to refuse to function.
Anyway, I shouldn't indulge in this kind of guesswork in public.
WinXPNews (<http://www.winxpnews.com/>) seems to be a good source for
this sort of information. If (and when) I really want to know, I'll
probably start there. And Google, of course.
Good luck. Don't let the bedbugs bite!
Randall Schulz
At 10:51 2003-04-01, günter strubinsky wrote:
>Thank you for the clarification, Randall!
>
>Fred mentioned the firewall issue. I have actually zone alarm installed and
>disallowed -permanently- the Microsoft software (with the exception as the
>usual suspects, DNS, etc.) to contact outside. Now I am not so sure anymore
>that I got hacked by anyone else but Bill. My system started to behave
>erratically when I had outlook and other ms programs running:
>
>The cpu was around 2-3% busy -never more during those phases- but everything
>stalled. (Including the task manager). I start to believe that those progs
>called home and waited for response from ms until they timed out which is
>why my system froze for about 30-60 seconds, execute a few time slices and
>then went into wait-state again. I have office xp installed...
>
>Is there any info out how the snoop works?
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 18:38 ` Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-01 19:07 ` Corinna Vinschen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Corinna Vinschen @ 2003-04-01 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 10:38:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> At 10:10 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >A lisp would be already a good start. Just don't write programs with it...
>
> Hey! Lisp is my all-time favorite language!
Yeth, thath the thame with all Igorth...
Corinna
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Red Hat, Inc.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 17:14 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 17:19 ` Igor Pechtchanski
@ 2003-04-02 1:54 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-02 4:11 ` Igor Pechtchanski
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Faylor @ 2003-04-02 1:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:14:23AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>
>Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...
Ok, Igor. Could you gold star "Randy" for, um, er, conspicuous service
on behalf of the cygwin community?
While we're at it, give yourself one for same. If you don't mind...
cgf
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-02 1:54 ` Christopher Faylor
@ 2003-04-02 4:11 ` Igor Pechtchanski
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Igor Pechtchanski @ 2003-04-02 4:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:14:23AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >
> >Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...
>
> Ok, Igor. Could you gold star "Randy" for, um, er, conspicuous service
> on behalf of the cygwin community?
>
> While we're at it, give yourself one for same. If you don't mind...
> cgf
Wow, you're generous today. But then, who am I to argue... :-)
Two gold stars coming up...
Igor
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|\ _,,,---,,_ pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
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|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski
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Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
-- Leto II
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-01 18:07 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 18:50 ` günter strubinsky
@ 2003-04-03 15:12 ` Steve Coleman
2003-04-03 15:59 ` Tim Prince
2003-04-03 16:20 ` Andrew DeFaria
1 sibling, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Steve Coleman @ 2003-04-03 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Randall R Schulz; +Cc: cygwin
Randall R Schulz wrote:
> I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it.
> Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a
> right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note,
> the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say
> no" to Microsoft.
And in some cases you can't say "no"!
A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I
first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on a
Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even close to
resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a daily basis.
At the time I was a representative to the X/Open organization and was
heavily involved in the system benchmarking and conformance testing to
ensure that all equipment supplied on several large contracts adhered to
the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ "legal suites" showed up in
force and muscled there way in through legal threats. Can you imagine
that? NASA, as big of a government organization as it is, being muscled
and pushed around by Microsloths lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open
complient operating system? Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come
close to being X/Open complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in
its infant stages of development. The short story is that M$ intimidated
NASA into creating a contract just for M$ to sell their stuff even
though they were not compliant with any of the benchmark tests or
feature lists required in order to compete. If you can't compete
technically (or just need some spare cash on hand), just threaten to sue.
Thank you team Cygwin! ;-)
(These are my own thoughts and opinions and in no way reflect my current
or past employers positions in any way)
8*}
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-03 15:12 ` Steve Coleman
@ 2003-04-03 15:59 ` Tim Prince
2003-04-03 16:02 ` Randall R Schulz
` (2 more replies)
2003-04-03 16:20 ` Andrew DeFaria
1 sibling, 3 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Tim Prince @ 2003-04-03 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Steve Coleman, Randall R Schulz; +Cc: cygwin
On Thursday 03 April 2003 06:54, Steve Coleman wrote:
> Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it.
> > Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a
> > right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note,
> > the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say
> > no" to Microsoft.
>
> And in some cases you can't say "no"!
>
> A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I
> first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on a
> Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even close to
> resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a daily basis.
> At the time I was a representative to the X/Open organization and was
> heavily involved in the system benchmarking and conformance testing to
> ensure that all equipment supplied on several large contracts adhered to
> the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ "legal suites" showed up in
> force and muscled there way in through legal threats. Can you imagine
> that? NASA, as big of a government organization as it is, being muscled
> and pushed around by Microsloths lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open
> complient operating system? Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come
> close to being X/Open complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in
> its infant stages of development.
Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64,
but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their
customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand how many customers
depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those
customers, just collect the fees and forget them.
--
Tim Prince
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-03 15:59 ` Tim Prince
@ 2003-04-03 16:02 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-03 16:30 ` Andrew DeFaria
2003-04-03 21:41 ` Christopher Faylor
2 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Randall R Schulz @ 2003-04-03 16:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Tim,
At 07:28 2003-04-03, you wrote:
>...
>
>Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows
>XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX
>than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand
>how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since
>they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them.
"We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company."
-- Lily Tomlin
>--
>Tim Prince
Randall Schulz
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-03 15:12 ` Steve Coleman
2003-04-03 15:59 ` Tim Prince
@ 2003-04-03 16:20 ` Andrew DeFaria
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Andrew DeFaria @ 2003-04-03 16:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Steve Coleman wrote:
> Randall R Schulz wrote:
>
>> I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it.
>> Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a
>> right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note,
>> the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say
>> no" to Microsoft.
>
> And in some cases you can't say "no"!
You can always say no. You may or may not always wish to deal with the
consequences of saying no. If you don't want to deal with the
consequences of saying no then you have actively choosen to say yes.
> A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I
> first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on
> a Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even
> close to resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a
> daily basis. At the time I was a representative to the X/Open
> organization and was heavily involved in the system benchmarking and
> conformance testing to ensure that all equipment supplied on several
> large contracts adhered to the X/Open standards. That is until the M$
> "legal suites" showed up in force and muscled there way in through
> legal threats. Can you imagine that? NASA, as big of a government
> organization as it is, being muscled and pushed around by Microsloths
> lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open complient operating system?
No I can't imagine that! Somebody, somewhere decided to say yes instead
of no. That is not being pushed to say yes.
> Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come close to being X/Open
> complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in its infant stages of
> development. The short story is that M$ intimidated NASA into creating
> a contract just for M$ to sell their stuff even though they were not
> compliant with any of the benchmark tests or feature lists required in
> order to compete. If you can't compete technically (or just need some
> spare cash on hand), just threaten to sue.
>
> Thank you team Cygwin! ;-)
>
> (These are my own thoughts and opinions and in no way reflect my
> current or past employers positions in any way)
>
> 8*}
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-03 15:59 ` Tim Prince
2003-04-03 16:02 ` Randall R Schulz
@ 2003-04-03 16:30 ` Andrew DeFaria
2003-04-03 16:46 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-03 21:41 ` Christopher Faylor
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Andrew DeFaria @ 2003-04-03 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
Tim Prince wrote:
> Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows
> XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX
> than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand
> how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since
> they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them.
How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm
curious because as you even admit "many customers depend on cygwin" so
it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers
from running Cygwin.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-03 16:30 ` Andrew DeFaria
@ 2003-04-03 16:46 ` Igor Pechtchanski
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Igor Pechtchanski @ 2003-04-03 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andrew DeFaria; +Cc: cygwin
On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
> Tim Prince wrote:
>
> > Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows
> > XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX
> > than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand
> > how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since
> > they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them.
>
> How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm
> curious because as you even admit "many customers depend on cygwin" so
> it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers
> from running Cygwin.
Microsoft doesn't "stop their customers from running Cygwin", it
introduces API changes that are incompatible with previous versions, and
thus cause programs like Cygwin to not run. Whether this is deliberate or
accidental remains debatable.
Igor
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http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
|\ _,,,---,,_ pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
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|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow!
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explained by stupidity.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: Big Brother is Real
2003-04-03 15:59 ` Tim Prince
2003-04-03 16:02 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-03 16:30 ` Andrew DeFaria
@ 2003-04-03 21:41 ` Christopher Faylor
2 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Faylor @ 2003-04-03 21:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 07:28:14AM -0800, Tim Prince wrote:
>Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64,
Wow. I had no idea I was so powerful. I think I need a raise.
cgf
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-04-03 21:34 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 46+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2003-03-31 15:15 ls Question Demmer, Thomas
2003-03-31 22:48 ` ls Question + bug? Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail)
2003-03-31 23:09 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 9:31 ` Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail)
2003-04-01 14:49 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 15:10 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 15:46 ` Peter Davis
2003-04-01 17:08 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 15:52 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 15:14 ` Igor Pechtchanski
[not found] ` <Pine.GSO.4.44.0304011012400.21921-100000@slinky.cs.nyu.edu >
2003-04-01 15:29 ` Big Brother is Real Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 15:32 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 16:09 ` Martin Gainty
2003-04-01 16:21 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 16:13 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 16:24 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 16:38 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-01 17:05 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 17:19 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-01 17:21 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 17:39 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 18:25 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-01 17:21 ` Corinna Vinschen
2003-04-01 17:31 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 18:10 ` Corinna Vinschen
2003-04-01 18:22 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 18:38 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 19:07 ` Corinna Vinschen
2003-04-01 18:12 ` pd
2003-04-01 17:14 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 17:19 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-02 1:54 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-02 4:11 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-01 17:03 ` Thorsten Kampe
2003-04-01 18:14 ` Martin Gainty
2003-04-01 17:56 ` günter strubinsky
2003-04-01 18:07 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-01 18:50 ` günter strubinsky
2003-04-01 18:56 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-03 15:12 ` Steve Coleman
2003-04-03 15:59 ` Tim Prince
2003-04-03 16:02 ` Randall R Schulz
2003-04-03 16:30 ` Andrew DeFaria
2003-04-03 16:46 ` Igor Pechtchanski
2003-04-03 21:41 ` Christopher Faylor
2003-04-03 16:20 ` Andrew DeFaria
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