Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Steven Penny]

Because of this dependency line

man
 groff
  perl

A base 64-bit Cygwin install now requires Perl. Can this be changed? While Perl
is a fine language I hardly feel it is appropriate to add that bulk to a base
install.

Note this issue is only with the 64-bit version, the base 32-bit Cygwin install
does not require Perl.

Related
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2013-05/msg00207.html

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Warren Young]

On 8/9/2013 11:17, Steven Penny wrote:
>
> A base 64-bit Cygwin install now requires Perl. Can this be changed? While Perl
> is a fine language I hardly feel it is appropriate to add that bulk to a base
> install.

Name a currently shipping Unixy system that does *not* have Perl 
installed by default.

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Steven Penny]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote
> A base 64-bit Cygwin install now requires Perl. Can this be changed?

Any updates? It has been 5 months

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Jan 12 09:51, Steven Penny wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote
> > A base 64-bit Cygwin install now requires Perl. Can this be changed?
> 
> Any updates? It has been 5 months

Not that I'm aware of.  Perl requirements are pretty basic these days.


Corinna

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Steven Penny]

On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:12 AM, Corinna Vinschen wrote
> Not that I'm aware of.  Perl requirements are pretty basic these days.

If we're not going to have Python we shouldn't have Perl either.
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2013-05/msg00211.html

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Warren Young]

On 8/9/2013 11:17, Steven Penny wrote:
> Because of this dependency line
>
> man
>   groff
>    perl

The groff package includes several helper programs written in Perl: 
afmtodit, groffer, and grog.

Red Hat and Mandriva split these utilities out into a separate 
package[*] but that would be something you'd have to prevail on cgf to 
change.



[*] http://goo.gl/HcWx99

> Note this issue is only with the 64-bit version, the base 32-bit Cygwin install
> does not require Perl.

32-bit Cygwin still ships groff 1.21.  64-bit Cygwin ships groff 1.22.2. 
  cgf probably added the requirement to his setup.hint file after 
upgrading the package.  Whenever he rebuilds 1.22.2 for 32-bit, I expect 
32-bit Cygwin to start requiring Perl, too, unless he splits out the 
Perl programs into a separate package.

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:39:50AM -0700, Warren Young wrote:
>On 8/9/2013 11:17, Steven Penny wrote:
>> Because of this dependency line
>>
>> man
>>   groff
>>    perl
>
>The groff package includes several helper programs written in Perl: 
>afmtodit, groffer, and grog.
>
>Red Hat and Mandriva split these utilities out into a separate 
>package[*] but that would be something you'd have to prevail on cgf to 
>change.

Actually, I didn't upload the 64-bit groff.  This is one of the reasons
why I had reservations about people other than the package maintainers
uploading packages.  The end result is that I'm forced to deal with
someone else's decision.  This has been the case for a few of my
packages, uploaded during the 64-bit transition.  If I had created the
package I might have paused at the perl dependency since clearly groff
is part of base.

In retrospect, it would have potentially made sense to use the same
versions and packaging for the 64-bit as for the 32-bit.  That might
have minimized this type of problem.

cgf

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 01:22:52PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:39:50AM -0700, Warren Young wrote:
>>On 8/9/2013 11:17, Steven Penny wrote:
>>> Because of this dependency line
>>>
>>> man
>>>   groff
>>>    perl
>>
>>The groff package includes several helper programs written in Perl: 
>>afmtodit, groffer, and grog.
>>
>>Red Hat and Mandriva split these utilities out into a separate 
>>package[*] but that would be something you'd have to prevail on cgf to 
>>change.
>
>Actually, I didn't upload the 64-bit groff.  This is one of the reasons
>why I had reservations about people other than the package maintainers
>uploading packages.  The end result is that I'm forced to deal with
>someone else's decision.  This has been the case for a few of my
>packages, uploaded during the 64-bit transition.  If I had created the
>package I might have paused at the perl dependency since clearly groff
>is part of base.
>
>In retrospect, it would have potentially made sense to use the same
>versions and packaging for the 64-bit as for the 32-bit.  That might
>have minimized this type of problem.

I forgot to add: Thanks for clarifying (reiterating?) that this is my
problem to solve.  I'll try to roll out a new version of groff in the
next few days and use the packaging that Warren kindly pointed to.

cgf

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Warren Young]

On 1/13/2014 11:22, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>
> In retrospect, it would have potentially made sense to use the same
> versions and packaging for the 64-bit as for the 32-bit.  That might
> have minimized this type of problem.

An argument could be made that since these helper programs are not core 
to groff's mission, groff does not literally *depend* on Perl.  That is, 
if Perl is missing, groff doesn't stop running.

That argument feels lawyerly to me, though.

If the scripts are extracted into a separate package, I'll be installing 
it.  I wish I'd known about groffer long ago.

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Andrew Schulman]

> Because of this dependency line
> 
> man
>  groff
>   perl
> 
> A base 64-bit Cygwin install now requires Perl. Can this be changed? While Perl
> is a fine language I hardly feel it is appropriate to add that bulk to a base
> install.
> 
> Note this issue is only with the 64-bit version, the base 32-bit Cygwin install
> does not require Perl.

lftp also has this problem.  It comes with a few sample scripts, two of which
are in Perl.  I include the sample scripts because why not, but cygport is now
quite diligent about finding this sort of thing, with the result that its
automatically-generated setup.hint now says that lftp depends on Perl.  Which is
annoying.

lftp isn't part of base of course.  I guess my point is just that when the only
option for dependency is "Requires", and Requires is determined automatically,
dependency lists are going to tend to grow.  It certainly seems to me that my
setup runs are pulling in a lot of extra required packages these days, that I
have no idea what they're for.

Andrew


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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

On 2014-01-13 12:22, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> Actually, I didn't upload the 64-bit groff.  This is one of the reasons
> why I had reservations about people other than the package maintainers
> uploading packages.  The end result is that I'm forced to deal with
> someone else's decision.  This has been the case for a few of my
> packages, uploaded during the 64-bit transition.  If I had created the
> package I might have paused at the perl dependency since clearly groff
> is part of base.

There is no practical difference in packaging between your 1.21-2.i686 
and 1.22.2-1.x86_64; they both include basically the same scripts, and 
therefore *both* should rightly depend on perl.  Probably the best 
solution to avoiding the perl dep in Base is to split up groff as on 
Fedora, where 13 perl scripts plus their manpages and data are in a 
separate groff-perl package.


Yaakov




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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Achim Gratz]

Andrew Schulman writes:
> lftp also has this problem.  It comes with a few sample scripts, two of which
> are in Perl.  I include the sample scripts because why not, but cygport is now
> quite diligent about finding this sort of thing, with the result that its
> automatically-generated setup.hint now says that lftp depends on Perl.  Which is
> annoying.

The easiest solution (now that the package build is done by cygport and
the upload done by yourself) is to split these into a sub-package.  The
main package stops being dependent on Perl and anybody else can get the
scripts if they want to.


Regards,
Achim.
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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Andrew Schulman]

> Andrew Schulman writes:
> > lftp also has this problem.  It comes with a few sample scripts, two of which
> > are in Perl.  I include the sample scripts because why not, but cygport is now
> > quite diligent about finding this sort of thing, with the result that its
> > automatically-generated setup.hint now says that lftp depends on Perl.  Which is
> > annoying.
> 
> The easiest solution (now that the package build is done by cygport and
> the upload done by yourself) is to split these into a sub-package.  The
> main package stops being dependent on Perl and anybody else can get the
> scripts if they want to.

Yes, I'm sure you're right.  But realistically, I'm not going to go to the work
of creating a separate lftp-examples package.  In fact I'm ignoring the problem,
which is probably common.  If I did anything about it, I'd probably manually
suppress the dependency on Perl, and ignore the case of someone who wanted to
run the sample scripts and didn't have Perl... a very small set.


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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

On 2014-01-13 13:21, Andrew Schulman wrote:
> lftp also has this problem.  It comes with a few sample scripts, two of which
> are in Perl.  I include the sample scripts because why not, but cygport is now
> quite diligent about finding this sort of thing, with the result that its
> automatically-generated setup.hint now says that lftp depends on Perl.  Which is
> annoying.

If they are just examples, you could install them as docs instead, as 
script dependencies under docdir are ignored; in the case of lftp:

cyginstall lib_LTLIBRARIES= pkgdatadir=\$(docdir)/examples

> lftp isn't part of base of course.  I guess my point is just that when the only
> option for dependency is "Requires", and Requires is determined automatically,
> dependency lists are going to tend to grow.  It certainly seems to me that my
> setup runs are pulling in a lot of extra required packages these days, that I
> have no idea what they're for.

While there have been a few false positives, IMO cygport setup.hint 
generation has made for much more accurate dependencies overall, and the 
additional deps it finds really *should* have been there all along. 
That being said, please let us know if there are any specific dependency 
issues that you see.


Yaakov


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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Andrew Schulman]

> On 2014-01-13 13:21, Andrew Schulman wrote:
> > lftp also has this problem.  It comes with a few sample scripts, two of which
> > are in Perl.  I include the sample scripts because why not, but cygport is now
> > quite diligent about finding this sort of thing, with the result that its
> > automatically-generated setup.hint now says that lftp depends on Perl.  Which is
> > annoying.
> 
> If they are just examples, you could install them as docs instead, as 
> script dependencies under docdir are ignored; in the case of lftp:
> 
> cyginstall lib_LTLIBRARIES= pkgdatadir=\$(docdir)/examples

Good idea, thanks.


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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Steven Penny]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
> Because of this dependency line

This issue is back again, now with

man-db
  lynx
    perl

OP
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2013-08/msg00152.html

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Chris J. Breisch]

Steven Penny wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
>> Because of this dependency line
>
> This issue is back again, now with
>
> man-db
>    lynx
>      perl
>
> OP
> http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2013-08/msg00152.html
>

Yes, this is true, and my guess is that it will remain so.

man-db depends on lynx, and that's not a dependency that is easily 
removed, even if I was inclined to try, which I'm not. It needs some 
sort of WWW browser. I don't think that can be disabled. It's not a 
configure option to do so, so it'd have to be handled through Cygwin 
specific patches to the source. I haven't looked into how difficult that 
would be yet. Perhaps it's not all that difficult. I'll take a glance 
when I get home.

While the browser doesn't have to be lynx, that's probably the simplest one.

lynx depends on perl. I'm not 100% sure this is a valid dependency. I 
don't notice that as a dependency on other systems. I think it comes 
from the fact that there's a sample perl script included in the 
installation. This is just sample code, and is merely to demonstrate 
using a perl script with lynx as a CGI. If Im correct and this is the 
reason for this dependency (I don't see anything else), it could likely 
be removed. I'm not the Cygwin project manager or the lynx maintainer, 
however, and such a decision would have to be left to them.

However, I wonder if the answer here isn't just to move perl into base. 
perl scripts are used everywhere, even in startup/shutdown scripts on 
some Unix systems. I think most people at this point expect a Unix 
environment to have perl.

So, yes, there are options to remove this dependency. The lynx one seems 
to me to be the easiest, but I could be wrong. As I said, I can take a 
look into seeing how difficult it would be to create a Cygwin specific 
version of mandb without browser capabilities. I'm not convinced it's 
worth crippling mandb just to remove this dependency, however.

Finally, I'm not sure that removing this dependency is worthwhile, 
regardless, but that's not my call.

-- 
Chris J. Breisch

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Douglas Coup]

Objective Systems, Inc.
REAL WORLD ASN.1 AND XML SOLUTIONS
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On 6/18/2014 4:14 PM, Chris J. Breisch wrote:
> Steven Penny wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
>>> Because of this dependency line
>>
>> This issue is back again, now with
>>
>> man-db
>>    lynx
>>      perl
>>
>> OP
>> http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2013-08/msg00152.html
>>
>
> Yes, this is true, and my guess is that it will remain so.
>
> man-db depends on lynx, and that's not a dependency that is easily 
> removed, even if I was inclined to try, which I'm not. It needs some 
> sort of WWW browser. I don't think that can be disabled. It's not a 
> configure option to do so, so it'd have to be handled through Cygwin 
> specific patches to the source. I haven't looked into how difficult 
> that would be yet. Perhaps it's not all that difficult. I'll take a 
> glance when I get home.
>
> While the browser doesn't have to be lynx, that's probably the 
> simplest one.
>
> lynx depends on perl. I'm not 100% sure this is a valid dependency. I 
> don't notice that as a dependency on other systems. I think it comes 
> from the fact that there's a sample perl script included in the 
> installation. This is just sample code, and is merely to demonstrate 
> using a perl script with lynx as a CGI. If Im correct and this is the 
> reason for this dependency (I don't see anything else), it could 
> likely be removed. I'm not the Cygwin project manager or the lynx 
> maintainer, however, and such a decision would have to be left to them.
>
> However, I wonder if the answer here isn't just to move perl into 
> base. perl scripts are used everywhere, even in startup/shutdown 
> scripts on some Unix systems. I think most people at this point expect 
> a Unix environment to have perl.
Just for my two cents, does "move perl into base" mean that a Cygwin 
install would always install Cygwin's perl and would not allow perl to 
be skipped?  I'm asking because we use ActiveState perl; we've had 
problems trying to run some of our scripts using Cygwin's perl. Every 
time a Cygwin install tries to bring in Cygwin's perl, we either have to 
mark it to be skipped or let it install and then run setup again to 
de-install it.
>
> So, yes, there are options to remove this dependency. The lynx one 
> seems to me to be the easiest, but I could be wrong. As I said, I can 
> take a look into seeing how difficult it would be to create a Cygwin 
> specific version of mandb without browser capabilities. I'm not 
> convinced it's worth crippling mandb just to remove this dependency, 
> however.
>
> Finally, I'm not sure that removing this dependency is worthwhile, 
> regardless, but that's not my call.
>


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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Larry Hall (Cygwin)]

On 06/18/2014 04:25 PM, Douglas Coup wrote:
>
> Objective Systems, Inc.
> REAL WORLD ASN.1 AND XML SOLUTIONS
> Tel: +1 (484) 875-9841
> Fax: +1 (484) 875-9830
> Toll-free: (877) 307-6855 (USA only)
> http://www.obj-sys.com
>
> On 6/18/2014 4:14 PM, Chris J. Breisch wrote:
>> Steven Penny wrote:
>>> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
>>>> Because of this dependency line
>>>
>>> This issue is back again, now with
>>>
>>> man-db
>>>    lynx
>>>      perl
>>>
>>> OP
>>> http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2013-08/msg00152.html
>>>
>>
>> Yes, this is true, and my guess is that it will remain so.
>>
>> man-db depends on lynx, and that's not a dependency that is easily
>> removed, even if I was inclined to try, which I'm not. It needs some sort
>> of WWW browser. I don't think that can be disabled. It's not a configure
>> option to do so, so it'd have to be handled through Cygwin specific
>> patches to the source. I haven't looked into how difficult that would be
>> yet. Perhaps it's not all that difficult. I'll take a glance when I get home.
>>
>> While the browser doesn't have to be lynx, that's probably the simplest one.
>>
>> lynx depends on perl. I'm not 100% sure this is a valid dependency. I
>> don't notice that as a dependency on other systems. I think it comes from
>> the fact that there's a sample perl script included in the installation.
>> This is just sample code, and is merely to demonstrate using a perl script
>> with lynx as a CGI. If Im correct and this is the reason for this
>> dependency (I don't see anything else), it could likely be removed. I'm
>> not the Cygwin project manager or the lynx maintainer, however, and such a
>> decision would have to be left to them.
>>
>> However, I wonder if the answer here isn't just to move perl into base.
>> perl scripts are used everywhere, even in startup/shutdown scripts on some
>> Unix systems. I think most people at this point expect a Unix environment
>> to have perl.
> Just for my two cents, does "move perl into base" mean that a Cygwin install
> would always install Cygwin's perl and would not allow perl to be skipped?
> I'm asking because we use ActiveState perl; we've had problems trying to run
> some of our scripts using Cygwin's perl. Every time a Cygwin install tries
> to bring in Cygwin's perl, we either have to mark it to be skipped or let it
> install and then run setup again to de-install it.

Yes, moving Perl to the Base category would mean that it would always be
installed.  When the pros and cons of this change were debated in the past,
the decision then was to leave Perl out of the Base category.

-- 
Larry

_____________________________________________________________________

A: Yes.
 > Q: Are you sure?
 >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
 >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Achim Gratz]

Chris J. Breisch writes:
> lynx depends on perl. I'm not 100% sure this is a valid dependency.

It isn't, scripts in the doc folder shouldn't trigger a dependency.  On
x86 this dependency isn't there, only on x86_64 -- which indicates it is
a function of the cygport version that generated the package.  But
really the setup.hint should just be changed for x86_64 (Corinna could
do that, I suppose).

> However, I wonder if the answer here isn't just to move perl into
> base. perl scripts are used everywhere, even in startup/shutdown
> scripts on some Unix systems. I think most people at this point expect
> a Unix environment to have perl.

Perl is too heavy for Base.  If we can help it it shouldn't be there.

> So, yes, there are options to remove this dependency. The lynx one
> seems to me to be the easiest, but I could be wrong.

There's links as well, but I don't know if it makes a difference
feature-wise.  It does not depend on perl in both architectures in any
case.  If man-db uses lynx by default, then it likely is easier to just
correct the dependencies.


Regards,
Achim.
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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Corinna Vinschen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1605 bytes --]

On Jun 18 16:14, Chris J. Breisch wrote:
> Steven Penny wrote:
> >On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
> >>Because of this dependency line
> >
> >This issue is back again, now with
> >
> >man-db
> >   lynx
> >     perl
> >
> >OP
> >http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2013-08/msg00152.html
> >
> 
> Yes, this is true, and my guess is that it will remain so.
> 
> man-db depends on lynx, and that's not a dependency that is easily removed,
> even if I was inclined to try, which I'm not. It needs some sort of WWW
> browser. I don't think that can be disabled. It's not a configure option to
> do so, so it'd have to be handled through Cygwin specific patches to the
> source. I haven't looked into how difficult that would be yet. Perhaps it's
> not all that difficult. I'll take a glance when I get home.
> 
> While the browser doesn't have to be lynx, that's probably the simplest one.
> 
> lynx depends on perl. I'm not 100% sure this is a valid dependency. I don't
> notice that as a dependency on other systems. I think it comes from the fact
> that there's a sample perl script included in the installation.

I have no idea how the perl dep has been generated.  It only exists in
the 64 bit setup.hint and, yes, lynx does not actually depend on perl.

I removed the dependcy for now, so the indirect perl dependency of
man-db should be gone as soon as the change is propagated to the mirrors.


Corinna

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Steven Penny]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
> Because of this dependency line

This issue is back again, now with

bash
  _update-info-dir
    texinfo
      perl

Previous
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2014-06/msg00279.html
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2013-08/msg00152.html

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Ken Brown]

On 10/31/2014 12:59 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
>> Because of this dependency line
>
> This issue is back again, now with
>
> bash
>    _update-info-dir
>      texinfo
>        perl

This is a side effect of the fact that I switched to cygport for packaging when 
I took over as texinfo maintainer.  cygport (correctly) detected perl as a 
dependency because texinfo provides perl scripts.  In fact, the most important 
program in texinfo is /usr/bin/makeinfo, which is a symlink to a perl script.

I'll wait for guidance from above before doing anything about this.

Ken

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Achim Gratz]

Steven Penny writes:
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
>> Because of this dependency line
>
> This issue is back again, now with
>
> bash
>   _update-info-dir
>     texinfo
>       perl

Texinfo5 is implemented in Perl.  Unless install-info gets split into a
separate package that _update-info-dir can depend on instead, the
dependency is in fact correct.


Regards,
Achim.
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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Yaakov Selkowitz]

On 2014-10-31 14:35, Ken Brown wrote:
> On 10/31/2014 12:59 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
>>> Because of this dependency line
>>
>> This issue is back again, now with
>>
>> bash
>>    _update-info-dir
>>      texinfo
>>        perl
>
> This is a side effect of the fact that I switched to cygport for
> packaging when I took over as texinfo maintainer.  cygport (correctly)
> detected perl as a dependency because texinfo provides perl scripts.  In
> fact, the most important program in texinfo is /usr/bin/makeinfo, which
> is a symlink to a perl script.
>
> I'll wait for guidance from above before doing anything about this.

Fedora splits out texinfo into 3 packages:

1) texinfo: makeinfo, texi2any, pod2texi, /usr/share/texinfo, 
/usr/share/info/texinfo*

2) info: info, infokey, install-info, /usr/share/info/info*

3) texinfo-tex: texindex, texi2dvi, texi2pdf, pdftexi2dvi, 
/usr/share/texmf*/tex/texinfo

In this setup, only 'info' would be required by _update-info-dir and 
should not have any Perl dependencies.  texinfo would be in 'Devel' and 
would have Perl dependencies, while texinfo-tex would also have texlive 
dependencies.


Yaakov


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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Ken Brown]

On 10/31/2014 3:56 PM, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
> On 2014-10-31 14:35, Ken Brown wrote:
>> On 10/31/2014 12:59 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
>>> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
>>>> Because of this dependency line
>>>
>>> This issue is back again, now with
>>>
>>> bash
>>>    _update-info-dir
>>>      texinfo
>>>        perl
>>
>> This is a side effect of the fact that I switched to cygport for
>> packaging when I took over as texinfo maintainer.  cygport (correctly)
>> detected perl as a dependency because texinfo provides perl scripts.  In
>> fact, the most important program in texinfo is /usr/bin/makeinfo, which
>> is a symlink to a perl script.
>>
>> I'll wait for guidance from above before doing anything about this.
>
> Fedora splits out texinfo into 3 packages:
>
> 1) texinfo: makeinfo, texi2any, pod2texi, /usr/share/texinfo,
> /usr/share/info/texinfo*
>
> 2) info: info, infokey, install-info, /usr/share/info/info*
>
> 3) texinfo-tex: texindex, texi2dvi, texi2pdf, pdftexi2dvi,
> /usr/share/texmf*/tex/texinfo
>
> In this setup, only 'info' would be required by _update-info-dir and should not
> have any Perl dependencies.  texinfo would be in 'Devel' and would have Perl
> dependencies, while texinfo-tex would also have texlive dependencies.

Sounds good to me.  I'll repackage within a few days.  Thanks.

Ken

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Oct 31 16:47, Ken Brown wrote:
> On 10/31/2014 3:56 PM, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
> >On 2014-10-31 14:35, Ken Brown wrote:
> >>On 10/31/2014 12:59 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
> >>>On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
> >>>>Because of this dependency line
> >>>
> >>>This issue is back again, now with
> >>>
> >>>bash
> >>>   _update-info-dir
> >>>     texinfo
> >>>       perl
> >>
> >>This is a side effect of the fact that I switched to cygport for
> >>packaging when I took over as texinfo maintainer.  cygport (correctly)
> >>detected perl as a dependency because texinfo provides perl scripts.  In
> >>fact, the most important program in texinfo is /usr/bin/makeinfo, which
> >>is a symlink to a perl script.
> >>
> >>I'll wait for guidance from above before doing anything about this.
> >
> >Fedora splits out texinfo into 3 packages:
> >
> >1) texinfo: makeinfo, texi2any, pod2texi, /usr/share/texinfo,
> >/usr/share/info/texinfo*
> >
> >2) info: info, infokey, install-info, /usr/share/info/info*
> >
> >3) texinfo-tex: texindex, texi2dvi, texi2pdf, pdftexi2dvi,
> >/usr/share/texmf*/tex/texinfo
> >
> >In this setup, only 'info' would be required by _update-info-dir and should not
> >have any Perl dependencies.  texinfo would be in 'Devel' and would have Perl
> >dependencies, while texinfo-tex would also have texlive dependencies.
> 
> Sounds good to me.  I'll repackage within a few days.  Thanks.

We need to make sure that the existing dependencies to texinfo
are still correct afterwards.  22 packages are affected:

  _update-info-dir
  a2ps
  autoconf  all of them
  automake  all of them
  cygport
  docbook2X
  indent

Looks rather harmless, but still something to look into.


Corinna

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Yaakov Selkowitz]

On 2014-10-31 16:04, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> On Oct 31 16:47, Ken Brown wrote:
>> On 10/31/2014 3:56 PM, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
>>> Fedora splits out texinfo into 3 packages:
>>>
>>> 1) texinfo: makeinfo, texi2any, pod2texi, /usr/share/texinfo,
>>> /usr/share/info/texinfo*
>>>
>>> 2) info: info, infokey, install-info, /usr/share/info/info*
>>>
>>> 3) texinfo-tex: texindex, texi2dvi, texi2pdf, pdftexi2dvi,
>>> /usr/share/texmf*/tex/texinfo
>>>
>>> In this setup, only 'info' would be required by _update-info-dir and should not
>>> have any Perl dependencies.  texinfo would be in 'Devel' and would have Perl
>>> dependencies, while texinfo-tex would also have texlive dependencies.
>>
>> Sounds good to me.  I'll repackage within a few days.  Thanks.
>
> We need to make sure that the existing dependencies to texinfo
> are still correct afterwards.  22 packages are affected:
>
>    _update-info-dir

info

>    a2ps

texinfo-tex

>    autoconf  all of them

Not sure this is needed.

>    automake  all of them

texinfo, although this is a soft dependency.

>    cygport

info (minimal build environment)

>    docbook2X

texinfo

>    indent

Not sure this is needed either.

--
Yaakov


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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Corinna Vinschen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1839 bytes --]

On Oct 31 16:24, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
> On 2014-10-31 16:04, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >On Oct 31 16:47, Ken Brown wrote:
> >>On 10/31/2014 3:56 PM, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
> >>>Fedora splits out texinfo into 3 packages:
> >>>
> >>>1) texinfo: makeinfo, texi2any, pod2texi, /usr/share/texinfo,
> >>>/usr/share/info/texinfo*
> >>>
> >>>2) info: info, infokey, install-info, /usr/share/info/info*
> >>>
> >>>3) texinfo-tex: texindex, texi2dvi, texi2pdf, pdftexi2dvi,
> >>>/usr/share/texmf*/tex/texinfo
> >>>
> >>>In this setup, only 'info' would be required by _update-info-dir and should not
> >>>have any Perl dependencies.  texinfo would be in 'Devel' and would have Perl
> >>>dependencies, while texinfo-tex would also have texlive dependencies.
> >>
> >>Sounds good to me.  I'll repackage within a few days.  Thanks.
> >
> >We need to make sure that the existing dependencies to texinfo
> >are still correct afterwards.  22 packages are affected:
> >
> >   _update-info-dir
> 
> info
> 
> >   a2ps
> 
> texinfo-tex
> 
> >   autoconf  all of them
> 
> Not sure this is needed.
> 
> >   automake  all of them
> 
> texinfo, although this is a soft dependency.
> 
> >   cygport
> 
> info (minimal build environment)
> 
> >   docbook2X
> 
> texinfo
> 
> >   indent
> 
> Not sure this is needed either.

The only reason I can think of  is that indent comes with an info file
/usr/share/info/indent.info.  But that would mean we'd have to add
dependencies to the info package for all packages coming with an info
page.  Analog for packages containing man pages a depedeny to man-db.

This might go a bit far, I guess...


Corinna

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Ken Brown]

On 11/1/2014 11:51 AM, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> On Oct 31 16:24, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
>> On 2014-10-31 16:04, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
>>> On Oct 31 16:47, Ken Brown wrote:
>>>> On 10/31/2014 3:56 PM, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
>>>>> Fedora splits out texinfo into 3 packages:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) texinfo: makeinfo, texi2any, pod2texi, /usr/share/texinfo,
>>>>> /usr/share/info/texinfo*
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) info: info, infokey, install-info, /usr/share/info/info*
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) texinfo-tex: texindex, texi2dvi, texi2pdf, pdftexi2dvi,
>>>>> /usr/share/texmf*/tex/texinfo
>>>>>
>>>>> In this setup, only 'info' would be required by _update-info-dir and should not
>>>>> have any Perl dependencies.  texinfo would be in 'Devel' and would have Perl
>>>>> dependencies, while texinfo-tex would also have texlive dependencies.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds good to me.  I'll repackage within a few days.  Thanks.
>>>
>>> We need to make sure that the existing dependencies to texinfo
>>> are still correct afterwards.  22 packages are affected:
>>>
>>>    _update-info-dir
>>
>> info
>>
>>>    a2ps
>>
>> texinfo-tex
>>
>>>    autoconf  all of them
>>
>> Not sure this is needed.
>>
>>>    automake  all of them
>>
>> texinfo, although this is a soft dependency.
>>
>>>    cygport
>>
>> info (minimal build environment)
>>
>>>    docbook2X
>>
>> texinfo
>>
>>>    indent
>>
>> Not sure this is needed either.
>
> The only reason I can think of  is that indent comes with an info file
> /usr/share/info/indent.info.  But that would mean we'd have to add
> dependencies to the info package for all packages coming with an info
> page.  Analog for packages containing man pages a depedeny to man-db.
>
> This might go a bit far, I guess...

Packages with an info file don't automatically get a dependency on texinfo (in 
the current setup).  So this must have been done manually by Jari for some 
reason.  But I think packages with an info file do get an automatic dependency 
on _update-info-dir, so that will bring in the new info package.

In any case, I was thinking the new info package ought to be in the Base 
category anyway, for the same reason that man-db is in Base.  But I don't have 
strong feelings about this.

Ken

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Corinna Vinschen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1912 bytes --]

On Nov  1 12:07, Ken Brown wrote:
> On 11/1/2014 11:51 AM, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >On Oct 31 16:24, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
> >>On 2014-10-31 16:04, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >>>On Oct 31 16:47, Ken Brown wrote:
> >>>>Sounds good to me.  I'll repackage within a few days.  Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>We need to make sure that the existing dependencies to texinfo
> >>>are still correct afterwards.  22 packages are affected:
> >>>
> >>>   _update-info-dir
> >>
> >>info
> >>
> >>>   a2ps
> >>
> >>texinfo-tex
> >>
> >>>   autoconf  all of them
> >>
> >>Not sure this is needed.
> >>
> >>>   automake  all of them
> >>
> >>texinfo, although this is a soft dependency.
> >>
> >>>   cygport
> >>
> >>info (minimal build environment)
> >>
> >>>   docbook2X
> >>
> >>texinfo
> >>
> >>>   indent
> >>
> >>Not sure this is needed either.
> >
> >The only reason I can think of  is that indent comes with an info file
> >/usr/share/info/indent.info.  But that would mean we'd have to add
> >dependencies to the info package for all packages coming with an info
> >page.  Analog for packages containing man pages a depedeny to man-db.
> >
> >This might go a bit far, I guess...
> 
> Packages with an info file don't automatically get a dependency on texinfo
> (in the current setup).  So this must have been done manually by Jari for
> some reason.  But I think packages with an info file do get an automatic
> dependency on _update-info-dir, so that will bring in the new info package.
> 
> In any case, I was thinking the new info package ought to be in the Base
> category anyway, for the same reason that man-db is in Base.  But I don't
> have strong feelings about this.

Sure, info in Base makes sense.


Corinna

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Ken Brown]

On 11/1/2014 1:34 PM, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> On Nov  1 12:07, Ken Brown wrote:
>> On 11/1/2014 11:51 AM, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
>>> On Oct 31 16:24, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
>>>> On 2014-10-31 16:04, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 31 16:47, Ken Brown wrote:
>>>>>> Sounds good to me.  I'll repackage within a few days.  Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> We need to make sure that the existing dependencies to texinfo
>>>>> are still correct afterwards.  22 packages are affected:
>>>>>
>>>>>    _update-info-dir
>>>>
>>>> info
>>>>
>>>>>    a2ps
>>>>
>>>> texinfo-tex
>>>>
>>>>>    autoconf  all of them
>>>>
>>>> Not sure this is needed.
>>>>
>>>>>    automake  all of them
>>>>
>>>> texinfo, although this is a soft dependency.
>>>>
>>>>>    cygport
>>>>
>>>> info (minimal build environment)
>>>>
>>>>>    docbook2X
>>>>
>>>> texinfo
>>>>
>>>>>    indent
>>>>
>>>> Not sure this is needed either.
>>>
>>> The only reason I can think of  is that indent comes with an info file
>>> /usr/share/info/indent.info.  But that would mean we'd have to add
>>> dependencies to the info package for all packages coming with an info
>>> page.  Analog for packages containing man pages a depedeny to man-db.
>>>
>>> This might go a bit far, I guess...
>>
>> Packages with an info file don't automatically get a dependency on texinfo
>> (in the current setup).  So this must have been done manually by Jari for
>> some reason.  But I think packages with an info file do get an automatic
>> dependency on _update-info-dir, so that will bring in the new info package.
>>
>> In any case, I was thinking the new info package ought to be in the Base
>> category anyway, for the same reason that man-db is in Base.  But I don't
>> have strong feelings about this.
>
> Sure, info in Base makes sense.

OK, I've just uploaded the new packages.  I guess you or Yaakov will have to 
adjust the existing dependencies on texinfo when you get a chance.

Ken

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Corinna Vinschen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2479 bytes --]

On Nov  1 14:12, Ken Brown wrote:
> On 11/1/2014 1:34 PM, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >On Nov  1 12:07, Ken Brown wrote:
> >>On 11/1/2014 11:51 AM, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >>>On Oct 31 16:24, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
> >>>>On 2014-10-31 16:04, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >>>>>On Oct 31 16:47, Ken Brown wrote:
> >>>>>>Sounds good to me.  I'll repackage within a few days.  Thanks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>We need to make sure that the existing dependencies to texinfo
> >>>>>are still correct afterwards.  22 packages are affected:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   _update-info-dir
> >>>>
> >>>>info

Changed.

> >>>>>   a2ps
> >>>>
> >>>>texinfo-tex

Changed on sourceware.

> >>>>>   autoconf  all of them
> >>>>
> >>>>Not sure this is needed.

I think this is about info.  I changed the dep to info on sware
for the time being.

> >>>>>   automake  all of them
> >>>>
> >>>>texinfo, although this is a soft dependency.

automake needs perl anywany, so the texinfo dep doesn't hurt.

> >>>>>   cygport
> >>>>
> >>>>info (minimal build environment)

Changed on sourceware.

> >>>>>   indent
> >>>>
> >>>>Not sure this is needed either.

Removed on sourceware.

Jari, can you please keep track of this change?

> >>>The only reason I can think of  is that indent comes with an info file
> >>>/usr/share/info/indent.info.  But that would mean we'd have to add
> >>>dependencies to the info package for all packages coming with an info
> >>>page.  Analog for packages containing man pages a depedeny to man-db.
> >>>
> >>>This might go a bit far, I guess...
> >>
> >>Packages with an info file don't automatically get a dependency on texinfo
> >>(in the current setup).  So this must have been done manually by Jari for
> >>some reason.  But I think packages with an info file do get an automatic
> >>dependency on _update-info-dir, so that will bring in the new info package.
> >>
> >>In any case, I was thinking the new info package ought to be in the Base
> >>category anyway, for the same reason that man-db is in Base.  But I don't
> >>have strong feelings about this.
> >
> >Sure, info in Base makes sense.
> 
> OK, I've just uploaded the new packages.  I guess you or Yaakov will have to
> adjust the existing dependencies on texinfo when you get a chance.


Thanks,
Corinna

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl? (indent DONE)

[Jari Aalto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 276 bytes --]

2014-11-01 21:16 Corinna Vinschen <corinna-cygwin@cygwin.com>:
|
| > >>>>>   indent
| > >>>>
| > >>>>Not sure this is needed either.
|
| Removed on sourceware.
|
| Jari, can you please keep track of this change?

Uploaded new x64 *-2 without texinfo dependency.

Thanks.
Jari

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl? (indent DONE)

[Corinna Vinschen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 505 bytes --]

On Nov  2 09:33, Jari Aalto wrote:
> 2014-11-01 21:16 Corinna Vinschen <corinna-cygwin@cygwin.com>:
> |
> | > >>>>>   indent
> | > >>>>
> | > >>>>Not sure this is needed either.
> |
> | Removed on sourceware.
> |
> | Jari, can you please keep track of this change?
> 
> Uploaded new x64 *-2 without texinfo dependency.

Thanks!


Corinna

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Re: Base 64-bit Cygwin now requires Perl?

[Daniel Jensen]

Warren Young wrote:

> Name a currently shipping Unixy system that does *not* have Perl installed by default. 

"default" seems to me to be the wrong thing to compare to cygwin base. I don't think most cygwin users would be pleased to see cygwin's base install inflated to mimic most distros' defaults, install gigabytes of GNOME/KDE stuff, etc.

FreeBSD's base system hasn't included Perl for a decade. Some of the other BSDs may not have it in base either; I'm not sure. Minimalist distros (e.g. TinyCore) and rescue distros (e.g. Parted Magic) routinely leave it out as well.

I guess groff needs perl for such things as the "chem" preprocessor for producing chemical structure diagrams. Not exactly what most people are looking for when they install man. Regular 32-bit cygwin groff doesn't require perl, with the result that typing "chem" at a command prompt on a base install results in '/usr/bin/env: perl: No such file or directory'. AFAIK nobody ever complained about that.

Some distros (e.g. Fedora) have a separate package for the groff stuff that requires perl. Other distros (e.g. Ubuntu) don't split the package but instead have perl as a "recommended," rather than required, dependency. I wish there were more of a way cygwin packages could take the latter route. Sometimes it'd be better to let software fail when users try to use obscure functionality that depends on another package they didn't install rather than have the package manager be too smart by half and just install every package their software could ever make use of.

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