mintty project

mintty project

[Thomas Wolff]

As a contributor to mintty, some sent me a notice discussing the move to 
github 
(http://www.reddit.com/r/cygwin/comments/37vgwi/what_happened_to_minttys_maintainer_andy_kopp/) 
and now there is already a github fork of mintty 
(https://github.com/nowox/mintty/tree/master/src).
I'd like to discuss what you (cygwin maintainers and others) think of 
this move, whether it's good for mintty to be hosted on github. 
Personally I feel that a platform like sourceforge provides a more 
professional project environment which would provide more confidence in 
stable project development.
What do you think?
Thomas

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Re: mintty project

[Tony Kelman]

> Personally I feel that a platform like sourceforge provides a more 
> professional project environment which would provide more confidence in 
> stable project development.
> What do you think?

Sourceforge is awful. It's incredibly unreliable, on a project I contribute
to where we deal with dozens of commits and pull requests every day, we've
had to put in workarounds and caching servers into our continuous
integration system specifically for Sourceforge-hosted dependencies because
it goes down so often.

Open-source mindshare is entirely on GitHub today. Even Microsoft is aware
of this and adapting to the times. Opening up mintty's development so it's
literally a click of a button to suggest a patch is a good thing, especially
since it looks like that GitHub fork was done well, including migrating all
the open issues over. We should put in some unit tests too, and set up a
hosted continuous integration service like AppVeyor to build and run the
tests on every commit and suggested pull request.

-Tony


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Re: mintty project

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On May 31 23:15, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> As a contributor to mintty, some sent me a notice discussing the move to
> github (http://www.reddit.com/r/cygwin/comments/37vgwi/what_happened_to_minttys_maintainer_andy_kopp/)
> and now there is already a github fork of mintty
> (https://github.com/nowox/mintty/tree/master/src).
> I'd like to discuss what you (cygwin maintainers and others) think of this
> move, whether it's good for mintty to be hosted on github. Personally I feel
> that a platform like sourceforge provides a more professional project
> environment which would provide more confidence in stable project
> development.
> What do you think?

It's not so much the hosting service providing the upstream repository
which concerns me, it's the lack of development, the lack of a responsive
maintainer, and the lack of a new, stable mintty package.  You're in for
one of the newly created pink plush hippos if you're going to take over
mintty maintainership ;)

Having said that, github is ok.


Corinna

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Re: mintty project

[Frank Fesevur]

2015-06-01 10:36 GMT+02:00 Corinna Vinschen:
> On May 31 23:15, Thomas Wolff wrote:
>> As a contributor to mintty, some sent me a notice discussing the move to
>> github (http://www.reddit.com/r/cygwin/comments/37vgwi/what_happened_to_minttys_maintainer_andy_kopp/)
>> and now there is already a github fork of mintty
>> (https://github.com/nowox/mintty/tree/master/src).

I see that "nowox" only imported the repo from Google Code very
recently, most likely by simply pressing the "Export to GitHub" button
on Google Code. And didn't make much "real changes" to his repo so
far.

>> I'd like to discuss what you (cygwin maintainers and others) think of this
>> move, whether it's good for mintty to be hosted on github. Personally I feel
>> that a platform like sourceforge provides a more professional project
>> environment which would provide more confidence in stable project
>> development.
>> What do you think?

I agree with Tony. Although I am still using the SF alias as one of my
email addresses I think at this moment GitHub has the most active
community. If you want to have a greater change on others contributing
I would really go for GitHub. Seen it happen so many times already,
move a project to GH and the PRs start coming.

> It's not so much the hosting service providing the upstream repository
> which concerns me, it's the lack of development, the lack of a responsive
> maintainer, and the lack of a new, stable mintty package.  You're in for
> one of the newly created pink plush hippos if you're going to take over
> mintty maintainership ;)
>
> Having said that, github is ok.

Would it be useful for cygwin to have its own place on GitHub? This
could be the place to host the mintty sources and maybe other things
as well.

There is a user named "cygwin" on github, but it appear very inactive.
https://github.com/cygwin
GitHub has a policy for that:
https://help.github.com/articles/name-squatting-policy/

So if interested, maybe Corinna or Yaakov (being our project leaders)
could ask GitHub to hand that account to them. And after that turn it
into an organization where projects like this can be hosted. This way
the project doesn't depend on one person to have full access when
needed to these kind of repos.
Just an idea.

Regards,
Frank

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Re: mintty project

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Jun  1 16:16, Frank Fesevur wrote:
> 2015-06-01 10:36 GMT+02:00 Corinna Vinschen:
> > It's not so much the hosting service providing the upstream repository
> > which concerns me, it's the lack of development, the lack of a responsive
> > maintainer, and the lack of a new, stable mintty package.  You're in for
> > one of the newly created pink plush hippos if you're going to take over
> > mintty maintainership ;)
> >
> > Having said that, github is ok.
> 
> Would it be useful for cygwin to have its own place on GitHub? This
> could be the place to host the mintty sources and maybe other things
> as well.
> 
> There is a user named "cygwin" on github, but it appear very inactive.
> https://github.com/cygwin
> GitHub has a policy for that:
> https://help.github.com/articles/name-squatting-policy/
> 
> So if interested, maybe Corinna or Yaakov (being our project leaders)
> could ask GitHub to hand that account to them. And after that turn it
> into an organization where projects like this can be hosted. This way
> the project doesn't depend on one person to have full access when
> needed to these kind of repos.
> Just an idea.

We could also put mintty under the cygwin-apps cover on sourceware.
We just need to fetch a git repo or import the original svn repo.


Corinna

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Re: mintty project

[Thomas Wolff]

Am 01.06.2015 um 17:50 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
>> ...
> We could also put mintty under the cygwin-apps cover on sourceware.
> We just need to fetch a git repo or import the original svn repo.
Another good proposal which I must have overlooked on Monday, sorry.
Is there an option to import the issues as well? If so, and you'd like
to provide a repo with full access for me, I'd look at that.
Otherwise, I have now cloned the project to github already and could
stay there.
------
Thomas

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Re: mintty project

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Jun  5 07:36, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> Am 01.06.2015 um 17:50 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
> >>...
> >We could also put mintty under the cygwin-apps cover on sourceware.
> >We just need to fetch a git repo or import the original svn repo.
> Another good proposal which I must have overlooked on Monday, sorry.
> Is there an option to import the issues as well? If so, and you'd like

Importing issues?  What do you mean?

> to provide a repo with full access for me, I'd look at that.
> Otherwise, I have now cloned the project to github already and could
> stay there.

That should be fine for now.  We can create a bare clone under the
"cygwin-apps" hood at one point.  You would only have to apply for
cygwin-apps access perms on sourceware using the form at
https://sourceware.org/cgi-bin/pdw/ps_form.cgi if you don't have
them already.  The cygwin-apps-cvs list would refelct changes to
the repo, just as for Cygwin's setup tool and a few others, still
in CVS.


Corinna

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Re: mintty project

[Csaba Raduly]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Corinna Vinschen  wrote:
> On Jun  5 07:36, Thomas Wolff wrote:
>> Am 01.06.2015 um 17:50 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
>> >>...
>> >We could also put mintty under the cygwin-apps cover on sourceware.
>> >We just need to fetch a git repo or import the original svn repo.
>> Another good proposal which I must have overlooked on Monday, sorry.
>> Is there an option to import the issues as well? If so, and you'd like
>
> Importing issues?  What do you mean?

He probably meant the bugs in the bug tracker.

Csaba
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Re: mintty project

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Jun  8 22:11, Csaba Raduly wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Corinna Vinschen  wrote:
> > On Jun  5 07:36, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> >> Am 01.06.2015 um 17:50 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
> >> >>...
> >> >We could also put mintty under the cygwin-apps cover on sourceware.
> >> >We just need to fetch a git repo or import the original svn repo.
> >> Another good proposal which I must have overlooked on Monday, sorry.
> >> Is there an option to import the issues as well? If so, and you'd like
> >
> > Importing issues?  What do you mean?
> 
> He probably meant the bugs in the bug tracker.

If so, then my answer is, "I don't know".  I'm not aware of a bugzilla
import functionality.  Overseers might know.


Corinna

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Re: mintty project

[Thomas Wolff]

Am 09.06.2015 um 11:56 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
> On Jun  8 22:11, Csaba Raduly wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Corinna Vinschen  wrote:
>>> On Jun  5 07:36, Thomas Wolff wrote:
>>>> Am 01.06.2015 um 17:50 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>> We could also put mintty under the cygwin-apps cover on sourceware.
>>>>> We just need to fetch a git repo or import the original svn repo.
>>>> Another good proposal which I must have overlooked on Monday, sorry.
>>>> Is there an option to import the issues as well? If so, and you'd like
>>> Importing issues?  What do you mean?
>> He probably meant the bugs in the bug tracker.
Yes, they are automatically exported from google code to github.
That makes the transition quite easy which is one strong argument for 
going with github.
I plan to provide a release within the next few weeks, including some 
fixes and minor improvements,
and to groom the issues and hopefully close many of them...
------
Thomas

> If so, then my answer is, "I don't know". I'm not aware of a bugzilla 
> import functionality. Overseers might know. Corinna

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Re: mintty project

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Jun  9 21:55, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> Am 09.06.2015 um 11:56 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
> >On Jun  8 22:11, Csaba Raduly wrote:
> >>On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Corinna Vinschen  wrote:
> >>>On Jun  5 07:36, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> >>>>Am 01.06.2015 um 17:50 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
> >>>>>>...
> >>>>>We could also put mintty under the cygwin-apps cover on sourceware.
> >>>>>We just need to fetch a git repo or import the original svn repo.
> >>>>Another good proposal which I must have overlooked on Monday, sorry.
> >>>>Is there an option to import the issues as well? If so, and you'd like
> >>>Importing issues?  What do you mean?
> >>He probably meant the bugs in the bug tracker.
> Yes, they are automatically exported from google code to github.
> That makes the transition quite easy which is one strong argument for going
> with github.
> I plan to provide a release within the next few weeks, including some fixes
> and minor improvements,
> and to groom the issues and hopefully close many of them...

Sounds promising, thanks in advance!


Corinna

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Re: mintty project

[Corinna Vinschen]

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Hi Thomas,

On Jun  5 07:36, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> Am 01.06.2015 um 17:50 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
> >>...
> >We could also put mintty under the cygwin-apps cover on sourceware.
> >We just need to fetch a git repo or import the original svn repo.
> Another good proposal which I must have overlooked on Monday, sorry.
> Is there an option to import the issues as well? If so, and you'd like
> to provide a repo with full access for me, I'd look at that.
> Otherwise, I have now cloned the project to github already and could
> stay there.

since you had contact with Andy, did you talk about the official
mailing list "mintty-discuss AT googlegroups DOT com"?  Are you
going to resurrect the list?


Thanks,
Corinna

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Re: mintty project

[Thomas Wolff]

Am 01.06.2015 um 10:36 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
> On May 31 23:15, Thomas Wolff wrote:
>> As a contributor to mintty, some sent me a notice discussing the move to
>> github (http://www.reddit.com/r/cygwin/comments/37vgwi/what_happened_to_minttys_maintainer_andy_kopp/)
>> and now there is already a github fork of mintty
>> (https://github.com/nowox/mintty/tree/master/src).
>> I'd like to discuss what you (cygwin maintainers and others) think of this
>> move, whether it's good for mintty to be hosted on github. Personally I feel
>> that a platform like sourceforge provides a more professional project
>> environment which would provide more confidence in stable project
>> development.
>> What do you think?
> It's not so much the hosting service providing the upstream repository
> which concerns me, it's the lack of development, the lack of a responsive
> maintainer, and the lack of a new, stable mintty package.  You're in for
> one of the newly created pink plush hippos if you're going to take over
> mintty maintainership ;)
OK, I'll take the hippo ;) I just spoke to Andy and we agreed that I
take the maintainership for the cygwin package for the time being. He
does intend to continue to participate but isn't currently finding the
time (as many others...).

> Having said that, github is ok.
>
Achim Gratz wrote:
> ... mintty already is on GitHub, in 26 different forks.
Terrible, this needs to be sorted out.
> Then closest to Cygwin is the one from cygwinports (Yaakov).
Corinna wrote:
> That should probably be the version going ahead with...
I'll check that out...
------
Thomas

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Re: mintty project

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Jun  2 08:05, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> Am 01.06.2015 um 10:36 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
> >On May 31 23:15, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> >>As a contributor to mintty, some sent me a notice discussing the move to
> >>github (http://www.reddit.com/r/cygwin/comments/37vgwi/what_happened_to_minttys_maintainer_andy_kopp/)
> >>and now there is already a github fork of mintty
> >>(https://github.com/nowox/mintty/tree/master/src).
> >>I'd like to discuss what you (cygwin maintainers and others) think of this
> >>move, whether it's good for mintty to be hosted on github. Personally I feel
> >>that a platform like sourceforge provides a more professional project
> >>environment which would provide more confidence in stable project
> >>development.
> >>What do you think?
> >It's not so much the hosting service providing the upstream repository
> >which concerns me, it's the lack of development, the lack of a responsive
> >maintainer, and the lack of a new, stable mintty package.  You're in for
> >one of the newly created pink plush hippos if you're going to take over
> >mintty maintainership ;)
> OK, I'll take the hippo ;) I just spoke to Andy and we agreed that I
> take the maintainership for the cygwin package for the time being.

Thanks a lot.  I just wonder why Andy doesn't reply to my mails.
Have I done something wrong?

> He
> does intend to continue to participate but isn't currently finding the
> time (as many others...).

Yeah, time's always a problem.  Life takes enough time already, and
above that you still have to work for a living.


Corinna

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Re: mintty project

[Achim Gratz]

Thomas Wolff writes:
> I'd like to discuss what you (cygwin maintainers and others) think of
> this move, whether it's good for mintty to be hosted on
> github.

The first thing should really be to find out what Andy Koppe thinks
about this, or is there any information about his whereabouts that says
he's abandoned his project (other than the long silence)?

And that question of yours is moot since mintty already is on GitHub, in
26 different forks.  Most of them are "Automatically exported from
Google Code." and some not even fully up-to-date.  Then closest to
Cygwin is the one from cygwinports (Yaakov).  Two of them simply dropped
the history and only three of them have non-trivial commits.

> Personally I feel that a platform like sourceforge provides a
> more professional project environment which would provide more
> confidence in stable project development.
> What do you think?

Sourceforge has been deteriorating for at least the last two years and
personally I don't like the lock-in that GitHub tries to sneak upon its
users.  I certainly won't register with GitHub just for reporting an
issue in one of their projects.


Regards,
Achim.
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Re: mintty project

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Jun  1 18:14, Achim Gratz wrote:
> Thomas Wolff writes:
> > I'd like to discuss what you (cygwin maintainers and others) think of
> > this move, whether it's good for mintty to be hosted on
> > github.
> 
> The first thing should really be to find out what Andy Koppe thinks
> about this, or is there any information about his whereabouts that says
> he's abandoned his project (other than the long silence)?

Well, I don't know what Andy really wants.  I pinged him May 2015 and he
replied a couple of days later.  Life was taking a toll, so he was not
actively working on mintty anymore.  He told me he'd have a look into
providing a new mintty version.  I pinged him twice since then, once in
October 2014, once in January 2015.  I'm willing to ping Andy again
(done with this mail), but if he doesn't reply we should really go
forward I think, even if it's unfortunate, Andy being a nice guy.

> And that question of yours is moot since mintty already is on GitHub, in
> 26 different forks.  Most of them are "Automatically exported from
> Google Code." and some not even fully up-to-date.  Then closest to
> Cygwin is the one from cygwinports (Yaakov).

That should probably be the version going ahead with...


Corinna

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Re: mintty project

[Thomas Wolff]

Am 01.06.2015 um 18:33 schrieb Corinna Vinschen:
> On Jun  1 18:14, Achim Gratz wrote:
>> Thomas Wolff writes:
>>> I'd like to discuss what you (cygwin maintainers and others) think of
>>> this move, whether it's good for mintty to be hosted on github.
>> ...
>> And that question of yours is moot since mintty already is on GitHub, in
>> 26 different forks.  Most of them are "Automatically exported from
>> Google Code." and some not even fully up-to-date.
After some browsing, I've learned that github encourages people to make 
private forks, as a playground or whatever.
That may be fine but doesn't really count as an argument for an 
"official" hosting platform.
>> Then closest to Cygwin is the one from cygwinports (Yaakov).
> That should probably be the version going ahead with...
That fork does not include the issue list (which could probably be 
added); also github/cygwinports is a github "user account" which, 
according to 
https://help.github.com/articles/what-are-the-different-access-permissions/ 
gives limited flexibility of assigning access rights. I guess as a 
package maintainer, admin rights of the official repository would be 
useful, which is an option with a github "organisation account".
So I see 3 options:
• Yaakov could turn github/cygwinports into an "organisation account" 
and give me admin rights for the mintty repository.
• I could create a dedicated account and repository.
• I could host mintty somewhere else.

Eric Blake wrote:
> I personally avoid github; it encourages the use of proprietary code ...
My concerns against github are different; I have a strong impression 
that it encourages anarchic project handling,
and I feel the concept of everybody being allowed to create forks and 
submit "pull requests" may not be good for a core project.

Opinions?
------
Thomas

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Re: mintty project

[Tony Kelman]

> • Yaakov could turn github/cygwinports into an "organisation account"
> and give me admin rights for the mintty repository.
> • I could create a dedicated account and repository.
> • I could host mintty somewhere else.

There is also an inactive "mintty" user on github, you could contact
github about name squatting there and try to turn that into an
organization account. Send nowox an email to let him know this
conversation is being had (he may not subscribe to the cygwin list?),
he might even be willing to transfer ownership of the migrated
repository that he's made, if that would save you any time.

> My concerns against github are different; I have a strong impression that 
> it encourages anarchic project handling,
> and I feel the concept of everybody being allowed to create forks and 
> submit "pull requests" may not be good for a core project.
>
> Opinions?

What's wrong with encouraging more people to contribute more easily?
Someone qualified still needs to review the patches before merging them,
and there are free services that offer excellent integration with github
to simplify automated testing.

The single biggest argument that I've ever seen in favor of using github
is this plot: https://jakevdp.github.io/figures/author_count.png
of the cumulative contributor count to numpy, scipy, and matplotlib over
time, comparing trends before and after those projects moved to github.

Large projects like Node.js, Rust, Julia, manage just fine with hundreds
of contributors on github (and would probably not flourish anywhere near
as well if they were not using github). For a project with a smaller
number of contributors like mintty, really the only thing you have to do
to avoid your perceived "anarchy" problem is emphasize that your repo is
the canonical upstream. If you're taking over maintenance of the cygwin
package, that's not hard to do.

-Tony


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Re: mintty project

[Thomas Wolff]

Am 02.06.2015 um 20:37 schrieb Tony Kelman:
>> • Yaakov could turn github/cygwinports into an "organisation account"
>> and give me admin rights for the mintty repository.
>> • I could create a dedicated account and repository.
>> • I could host mintty somewhere else.
> There is also an inactive "mintty" user on github, you could contact
> github about name squatting there and try to turn that into an 
> organization account.
I have acquired that account meanwhile but apparently it cannot be 
turned into an org. account, rather it would need to be attached to a 
separate org. account (weird policy).
Actually there is also an orphaned github account called "cygwin" which 
could be claimed by a cygwin maintainer (Corinna?), maybe as an option 
to host cygwin packages.

Apart from that, I am still hesitating to go with github.com. What do 
people think about gitlab.com instead? It makes a more serious 
impression and has some more professional features. Or maybe codebase.com?
My concern is to find a good and stable home for a cygwin core project. 
Of course I could also host it on my hard disk (or personal domain) and 
just publish source packages...
------
Thomas

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Re: mintty project

[Frank Fesevur]

2015-06-04 8:29 GMT+02:00 Thomas Wolff:
> I have acquired that account meanwhile but apparently it cannot be turned
> into an org. account, rather it would need to be attached to a separate org.
> account (weird policy).

Does this help?
https://help.github.com/articles/converting-a-user-into-an-organization/

> Actually there is also an orphaned github account called "cygwin" which
> could be claimed by a cygwin maintainer (Corinna?), maybe as an option to
> host cygwin packages.

Suggested that as well in my previous mail.

> Apart from that, I am still hesitating to go with github.com. What do people
> think about gitlab.com instead? It makes a more serious impression and has
> some more professional features. Or maybe codebase.com?

I cannot tell you anything about the other sites you mention. But I
know that the community is at github at the moment. Many examples
exist. See the graph Tony posted. I experienced it myself as well. Or
see the "Our choice of using GitHub" section on this blogpost of
Microsoft http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2014/11/12/net-core-is-open-source.aspx

I am sure the community will build around mintty, once people start to
noticed the move. And for that ask Andy to put a link to the new repo
on the Google Code page.

Regards,
Frank

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Re: mintty project

[Eric Blake]

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On 06/01/2015 10:14 AM, Achim Gratz wrote:
> Thomas Wolff writes:
>> I'd like to discuss what you (cygwin maintainers and others) think of
>> this move, whether it's good for mintty to be hosted on
>> github.
> 
> The first thing should really be to find out what Andy Koppe thinks
> about this, or is there any information about his whereabouts that says
> he's abandoned his project (other than the long silence)?
> 
> And that question of yours is moot since mintty already is on GitHub, in
> 26 different forks.  Most of them are "Automatically exported from
> Google Code." and some not even fully up-to-date.  Then closest to
> Cygwin is the one from cygwinports (Yaakov).  Two of them simply dropped
> the history and only three of them have non-trivial commits.
> 
>> Personally I feel that a platform like sourceforge provides a
>> more professional project environment which would provide more
>> confidence in stable project development.
>> What do you think?
> 
> Sourceforge has been deteriorating for at least the last two years and
> personally I don't like the lock-in that GitHub tries to sneak upon its
> users.  I certainly won't register with GitHub just for reporting an
> issue in one of their projects.

I personally avoid github; it encourages the use of proprietary code
(the bug tracker and pull requests are not based on free software);
while it can be used for a free software project (by hosting bug reports
elsewhere, and using a mailing list rather than pull requests for
merging in patches), it is never my go-to solution for an upstream
project hosting site.  I'm fine with github serving as a mirror to make
downstream forking easier and to increase mindshare among developers
that aren't as picky about free software, but I'd much rather use an
upstream site that does not encourage the use of proprietary software.

See for example how libvirt is using github merely as a read-only
mirror: https://github.com/libvirt/libvirt

-- 
Eric Blake   eblake redhat com    +1-919-301-3266
Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org


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