Need help with Perl/Tk

Need help with Perl/Tk

[Michael Kairys]

There seems to be something broken in my Perl installation re. Tk, or 
perhaps I'm missing something, or just ignorant. If I run a script 
containing (only) "use Tk" I get:

Can't load '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' for module 
Tk:
No such file or directory at /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/DynaLoader.pm line 
230.

However /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll is in fact 
there:

-rwxr-xr-x 1 michael None 803328 Jan 12  2006 
/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll

cygcheck seems to think everything is okay:

Package                 Version        Status

perl                    5.8.8-4        OK
perl-ExtUtils-Depends   0.205-1        OK
perl-ExtUtils-PkgConfig 1.07-1         OK
perl-Image-Magick       6.3.0.1-2      OK
perl-libwin32           0.27-1         OK
perl-Locale-gettext     1.05-2         OK
perl-Tk                 804.027-4      OK
perl-Win32-GUI          1.05-1         OK
perl_manpages           5.8.8-4        OK

I asked about this in another thread and received this answer:

> As I said I don't know exactly why your Tk isn't working. I do know that
> Tk under Cygwin assumes a running X server. I rarely run an X server - I
> simply use rxvt instead - so I don't like that requirement. I also work
> with IBM/Rational products and often need to run ccperl or cqperl - both
> of which are AS based. And they have Tk in there that works straight on
> Windows (like rxvt does if it senses there is no X server running - I wish
> Cygwin's Perl::Tk would do that!).

However when I asked in that thread "Is it correct that Cygwin Perl/Tk 
requires a running X server?" I got:

> That is one of the stranger assertions to pass by here in a while.

... so I don't quite know what to make of it all. I'm asking for help with 
this problem, and where to go for Perl/Tk advice in general.



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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Reini Urban]

2007/12/13, Michael Kairys <kairys@comcast.net>:
> There seems to be something broken in my Perl installation re. Tk, or
> perhaps I'm missing something, or just ignorant. If I run a script
> containing (only) "use Tk" I get:
>
> Can't load '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' for module
> Tk:
> No such file or directory at /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/DynaLoader.pm line
> 230.
>
> However /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll is in fact
> there:
>
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 michael None 803328 Jan 12  2006
> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll

Run
cygcheck /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll
There you will find the missing libraries.

> cygcheck seems to think everything is okay:
>
> Package                 Version        Status
>
> perl                    5.8.8-4        OK
> perl-ExtUtils-Depends   0.205-1        OK
> perl-ExtUtils-PkgConfig 1.07-1         OK
> perl-Image-Magick       6.3.0.1-2      OK
> perl-libwin32           0.27-1         OK
> perl-Locale-gettext     1.05-2         OK
> perl-Tk                 804.027-4      OK
> perl-Win32-GUI          1.05-1         OK
> perl_manpages           5.8.8-4        OK
>
> I asked about this in another thread and received this answer:
>
> > As I said I don't know exactly why your Tk isn't working. I do know that
> > Tk under Cygwin assumes a running X server.

That's not entirely true. Tk works fine without X.
Just perl-Tk requires an installed X, a running X server and
a correct DISPLAY environment variable.

> > I rarely run an X server - I
> > simply use rxvt instead - so I don't like that requirement. I also work
> > with IBM/Rational products and often need to run ccperl or cqperl - both
> > of which are AS based. And they have Tk in there that works straight on
> > Windows (like rxvt does if it senses there is no X server running - I wish
> > Cygwin's Perl::Tk would do that!).

me too.

> However when I asked in that thread "Is it correct that Cygwin Perl/Tk
> requires a running X server?" I got:
>
> > That is one of the stranger assertions to pass by here in a while.
>
> ... so I don't quite know what to make of it all. I'm asking for help with
> this problem, and where to go for Perl/Tk advice in general.

Native perl Tk under cygwin used to had some build problems which
recently got fixed, if I remember correctly.
You can try to build it by your own, without the odd X dependency.
-- 
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.org/              http://murbreak.at/
http://spacemovie.mur.at/   http://helsinki.at/

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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Michael Kairys]

"Reini Urban" <rurban@x-ray.at> wrote in message 
news:6910a60712130338u34d0d493y84d8649d8b688f91@mail.gmail.com...

> Run cygcheck /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll
> There you will find the missing libraries.

Thank you! I get "Error: could not find cygX11-6.dll"

> That's not entirely true. Tk works fine without X.
> Just perl-Tk requires an installed X, a running X server and
> a correct DISPLAY environment variable.

So I assume this is the problem.

> Native perl Tk under cygwin used to had some build problems which
> recently got fixed, if I remember correctly.
> You can try to build it by your own, without the odd X dependency.

So next I will try installing and running Cygwin's X server (if I can even 
recall how to spell X :) and see if that makes things work better; however 
that "odd X dependency" would make me leery of adopting Cygwin Perl/Tk (as 
opposed to ActiveState, which I'm currently using) and I would certainly 
like to know how to follow up on that suggestion. 



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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Sisyphus]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Kairys" <kairys@comcast.net>
To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:26 PM
.
.
>
> Can't load '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' for 
> module Tk:
> No such file or directory at /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/DynaLoader.pm line 
> 230.
>
> However /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll is in fact 
> there:

Yes ... but note that the error message doesn't actually say that 
'/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' could not be found. 
In fact, it says that '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' 
could not be *loaded* ... which implies that 
'/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' *was* found .... but 
... ummm ... couldn't be *loaded*.

Why couldn't it be loaded ? Perhaps because it tried to load a file 
(usually, in my experience, a dll) that couldn't be found at 
/usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/DynaLoader.pm line 230.

(When it comes to DynaLoader you gotta learn to read the fine print and make 
intuitive leaps :-)
.
.
>
> However when I asked in that thread "Is it correct that Cygwin Perl/Tk 
> requires a running X server?" I got:
>
>> That is one of the stranger assertions to pass by here in a while.
>

I must confess that my reaction would have been pretty much the same. On 
native Win32, Tk simply "works" ... and no X Server.

In the final analysis, I can't answer your question(s), but I do look 
forward to learning just what the correct solution is :-)

Cheers,
Rob 


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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Michael Kairys]

"Sisyphus" <sisyphus1@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message 
news:3551E1877C7A4F9EA99799CED176646E@desktop2...

> Yes ... but note that the error message doesn't actually say that 
> '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' could not be found. 
> In fact, it says that 
> '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' could not be 
> *loaded* ... which implies that 
> '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' *was* found .... 
> but ... ummm ... couldn't be *loaded*.
>
> Why couldn't it be loaded ? Perhaps because it tried to load a file 
> (usually, in my experience, a dll) that couldn't be found at 
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/DynaLoader.pm line 230.

I see. Well, I can get no further info from the debugger; it croaks on line 
230 just as the comment says:

    # Many dynamic extension loading problems will appear to come from
    # this section of code: XYZ failed at line 123 of DynaLoader.pm.
    # Often these errors are actually occurring in the initialisation
    # C code of the extension XS file. Perl reports the error as being
    # in this perl code simply because this was the last perl code
    # it executed.

    my $libref = dl_load_file($file, $module->dl_load_flags) or croak...

But more to this story on the other side of this thread...



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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Andrew DeFaria]

Sisyphus wrote:
>> Can't load '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' for 
>> module Tk:
>> No such file or directory at /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/DynaLoader.pm 
>> line 230.
>>
>> However /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll is in 
>> fact there:
> Yes ... but note that the error message doesn't actually say that 
> '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' could not be 
> found. In fact, it says that 
> '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' could not be 
> *loaded* ... which implies that 
> '/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Tk/Tk.dll' *was* found 
> .... but ... ummm ... couldn't be *loaded*.
>
> Why couldn't it be loaded ? Perhaps because it tried to load a file 
> (usually, in my experience, a dll) that couldn't be found at 
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/DynaLoader.pm line 230.
>
> (When it comes to DynaLoader you gotta learn to read the fine print 
> and make intuitive leaps :-)
Yes but it did indeed state "No such file or directory...". Would it be 
that hard for DynaLoader.pm to mention exactly which file it was looking 
for?
>> However when I asked in that thread "Is it correct that Cygwin 
>> Perl/Tk requires a running X server?" I got:
>>
>>> That is one of the stranger assertions to pass by here in a while.
> I must confess that my reaction would have been pretty much the same. 
> On native Win32, Tk simply "works" ... and no X Server.
I was the one who stated that you need a running X server precise 
because I'd been through this exercise before. It's not really that 
difficult to understand. There is no Tk on native Win32. There may be 
one that was installed when you installed ActiveState. There is none 
when you install Cygwin. You can install Cygwin's Perl/Tk but then 
you'll get one that is designed to work with an X server - just like it 
would have been designed to work with an X server before it was ported 
say on a Linux box. It's not much different than say xterm, which is 
also designed to work with an X server. Rxvt, OTOH, can work with an X 
server or just regular win32 graphical elements but that's the exception 
to the rule.

I'll say it again, it would be wonderful if Perl/Tk would work with 
regular win32 graphical elements but nobody has bothered to develop that.
-- 
Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
Why do toasters always have a setting that burns the toast to a horrible 
crisp no one would eat?


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RE: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Dave Korn]

On 13 December 2007 14:55, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

>> (When it comes to DynaLoader you gotta learn to read the fine print
>> and make intuitive leaps :-)
> Yes but it did indeed state "No such file or directory...". Would it be
> that hard for DynaLoader.pm to mention exactly which file it was looking
> for?

  Yes, it would, because that information is not exposed to the application; you
just call LoadLibrary, and if you get a file not found error back, there's no
way to determine if it was the library DLL itself or one of the dependent DLLs
that windows couldn't find.

    cheers,
      DaveK
-- 
Can't think of a witty .sigline today....


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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Andrew DeFaria]

Dave Korn wrote:
> On 13 December 2007 14:55, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>>> (When it comes to DynaLoader you gotta learn to read the fine print 
>>> and make intuitive leaps :-)
>> Yes but it did indeed state "No such file or directory...". Would it 
>> be that hard for DynaLoader.pm to mention exactly which file it was 
>> looking for?
> Yes, it would, because that information is not exposed to the 
> application; you just call LoadLibrary, and if you get a file not 
> found error back, there's no way to determine if it was the library 
> DLL itself or one of the dependent DLLs that windows couldn't find.
Well then how about changing the error message to something as 
nonsensical as "Unable to find this library, or a library on which this 
one depends..."
-- 
Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
All I want in life is a warm bed, and unlimited power.


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RE: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Dave Korn]

On 13 December 2007 15:30, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

> Dave Korn wrote:
>> On 13 December 2007 14:55, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>>>> (When it comes to DynaLoader you gotta learn to read the fine print
>>>> and make intuitive leaps :-)
>>> Yes but it did indeed state "No such file or directory...". Would it
>>> be that hard for DynaLoader.pm to mention exactly which file it was
>>> looking for?
>> Yes, it would, because that information is not exposed to the
>> application; you just call LoadLibrary, and if you get a file not
>> found error back, there's no way to determine if it was the library
>> DLL itself or one of the dependent DLLs that windows couldn't find.
> Well then how about changing the error message to something as
> nonsensical as "Unable to find this library, or a library on which this
> one depends..."

  DynaLoader is just spitting out the bog-standard canned error message that
perror() returns for ENOENT.  There's certainly no reason why it couldn't look
out for that particular errno and issue a more detailed explanation, instead of
relying solely on the default.

    cheers,
      DaveK
-- 
Can't think of a witty .sigline today....


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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Andrew DeFaria]

Dave Korn wrote:
> DynaLoader is just spitting out the bog-standard canned error message 
> that perror() returns for ENOENT. 
Oh I totally understand that. I guess what I'm saying is - could it be a 
wee bit more, ahem, helpful!
> There's certainly no reason why it couldn't look out for that 
> particular errno and issue a more detailed explanation, instead of 
> relying solely on the default.
But it doesn't, and that's essentially the point.
-- 
Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
"Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes."


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RE: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Dave Korn]

On 14 December 2007 03:12, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

> Dave Korn wrote:
>> DynaLoader is just spitting out the bog-standard canned error message
>> that perror() returns for ENOENT.
> Oh I totally understand that. I guess what I'm saying is - could it be a
> wee bit more, ahem, helpful!
>> There's certainly no reason why it couldn't look out for that
>> particular errno and issue a more detailed explanation, instead of
>> relying solely on the default.
> But it doesn't, and that's essentially the point.

  Well, PTC I'm sure.  But there's a limited use to tweaking the error message
text if it still can't tell you /which/ file was missing, and that would mean
adding a whole bunch of PE-reading functionality to do it right.

    cheers,
      DaveK
-- 
Can't think of a witty .sigline today....


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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Michael Kairys]

"Andrew DeFaria" <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote in message 
news:fjrh39$gej$1@ger.gmane.org...

> I'll say it again, it would be wonderful if Perl/Tk would work with 
> regular win32 graphical elements but nobody has bothered to develop that.

Well, ActiveState has :)

... and thank you for the explanation. 



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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Andrew DeFaria]

Michael Kairys wrote:
> "Andrew DeFaria" <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote in message 
> news:fjrh39$gej$1@ger.gmane.org...
>> I'll say it again, it would be wonderful if Perl/Tk would work with 
>> regular win32 graphical elements but nobody has bothered to develop 
>> that.
> Well, ActiveState has :)
>
> ... and thank you for the explanation.
Yes but it has it's own peculiarities like non support of setsid, 
different debugger, different way to install modules, bad handling of 
signals (probably fixed by now), etc. Also, I'm not a big fan of piece 
mealing different tools and utilities together when I can get them all 
in a package that is designed to work together in a very well known 
manner from a long history of Unixen systems past. This way I don't need 
to keep tabs on various different packages, what patch level they are 
at, where I need to get each one and then deal with how well they do or 
don't work together. IOW I'd rather not install Putty, then Reflection 
X, then TerraTerm then ActiveState when I can get all of those directly 
through Cygwin and they all work well together - just like, or close to, 
how they work on say Linux. Granted, as I said, it would be nice if 
Cygwin's Perl/Tk could do native win32 widgets...
-- 
Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
As I always say "I never repeat myself"


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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Sisyphus]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Kairys" <kairys@comcast.net>
.
.
>> I'll say it again, it would be wonderful if Perl/Tk would work with 
>> regular win32 graphical elements but nobody has bothered to develop that.
>
> Well, ActiveState has :)
>

Actually, I don't think ActiveState do anything other than simply build 
Perl/Tk from source - same as anyone else can. So the credit for the fact 
that Tk "simply works" on native Win32 really belongs to the Tk developers. 
(Faik, some ActiveState identities may well provide input into the Tk 
development from time to time.)

Cheers,
Rob 


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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Reini Urban]

2007/12/13, Andrew DeFaria:
> I'll say it again, it would be wonderful if Perl/Tk would work with
> regular win32 graphical elements but nobody has bothered to develop that.

Cygwin perl-Tk for native Win32 worked fine for several years, but stopped
working some years ago.
Since the maintainer is dead, the situation didn't improve.
-- 
Reini

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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Michael Kairys]

"Reini Urban" <rurban@x-ray.at> wrote in message 
news:6910a60712131738h24354578jc8ba5b1629560005@mail.gmail.com...
> Cygwin perl-Tk for native Win32 worked fine for several years, but stopped
> working some years ago.
> Since the maintainer is dead, the situation didn't improve.

Wwll, I'm sorry to hear that, for our sakes.

I have resolved my Perl/Tk issues with help from you and others here. I 
needed to put /usr/bin/X11R6 on my path (which resolved the dll not found 
issue) and to run XWin (which allowed a Perl/Tk window to display).

It looked pretty ugly, all in all. I suppose I could devote some time to 
study and end up with a server configuration that gave me decent-looking 
fonts and colors and so on. Of course I would still be looking a an X window 
with X widgets in it.

It's all pretty disappointing, compared to ActiveState's implementation, 
which looks much better and requires no setup, no extraneous directories on 
my path, and no otherwise uneeded daemons.

After all the discussion about AS vs. Cygwin Perl (see "Wish Setup would 
accept my Perl") I've fixed up most of my scripts so they run equally well 
on either Perl. It wasn't that hard; as others suggested, it was mostly a 
matter of cleanliness and discipline. But the Cygwin Perl/Tk issue is a 
showstopper for me; I will have to keep AS Perl around just to run my Tk 
scripts. 



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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Michael Kairys]

"Michael Kairys" <kairys@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:fjsor5$p2j$1@ger.gmane.org...

> It's all pretty disappointing, compared to ActiveState's implementation, 
> which looks much better and requires no setup, no extraneous directories 
> on my path, and no otherwise uneeded daemons.

A little research reveals this issue has been around for a while and is 
apparently well-known by everyone but me :)

From: "Yaakov S (Cygwin Ports)" <yselkowitz at users dot sourceforge dot 
net>
To: cygwin at cygwin dot com
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:54:19 -0600
Subject: Re: PerlTK under Windows
References: <dnq98d$411$1@sea.gmane.org>


Andrew DeFaria wrote:
> However I'd like PerlTk to fall back to using Windows widgets much like
> rxvt will do a Windows window if there is no X server to connect to.

Just how rxvt manages to use both X11 and Win32GUI is unique, as has
been discussed before at length.  Don't expect anything else X11 based
to do that on Cygwin.

perl-Tk is X11-based because it *does not compile* on Cygwin for Win32.
PTC.




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Re: Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Jason Pearce]

This is rather late because I only follow the digest, but I've looked 
into Perl/TK a bit with Cygwin.
Initially I found it all to be fairly disappointing, not least because 
when I finally got things "working" Perk/TK gave limited widgets and was 
prone to crashes.

My current solution is to use Perl Tcl::Tk. The subtle difference is 
that Perl controls the interface though TCL. I've found it much more 
satisfying and much more stable. One of the biggest advantages is access 
to a lot more widgets because you can get at any widget you can get 
under TCL/TK. I am using VTCL to graphically build my GUI forms, the the 
Perl script "executes the TCL interface" with TCL::TK.

Getting it all going is prety straight forward, install Cygwin's TCL TK 
(which uses the x-server) then then the perl packages off CPAN compile 
out of the box (see my earlier cygwin post about the snit gotcha).

http://vkonovalov.ru/cgi-bin/perl-tcltk-wiki.cgi/
http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2007-10/msg00221.html
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.tcltk/
http://vkonovalov.ru/vtcl-usage/Using_vtcl_for_creating_Tcl-Tk_GUI_for_Perl.html

Regards,
Jason

Michael Kairys wrote:
> <div class="moz-text-flowed" style="font-family: -moz-fixed">
> "Michael Kairys" <kairys@comcast.net> wrote in message 
> news:fjsor5$p2j$1@ger.gmane.org...
>
>> It's all pretty disappointing, compared to ActiveState's 
>> implementation, which looks much better and requires no setup, no 
>> extraneous directories on my path, and no otherwise uneeded daemons.
>
> A little research reveals this issue has been around for a while and 
> is apparently well-known by everyone but me :)
>
> From: "Yaakov S (Cygwin Ports)" <yselkowitz at users dot sourceforge 
> dot net>
> To: cygwin at cygwin dot com
> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:54:19 -0600
> Subject: Re: PerlTK under Windows
> References: <dnq98d$411$1@sea.gmane.org>
>
>
> Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>> However I'd like PerlTk to fall back to using Windows widgets much like
>> rxvt will do a Windows window if there is no X server to connect to.
>
> Just how rxvt manages to use both X11 and Win32GUI is unique, as has
> been discussed before at length.  Don't expect anything else X11 based
> to do that on Cygwin.
>
> perl-Tk is X11-based because it *does not compile* on Cygwin for Win32.
> PTC.
>
>
>
> </div>

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Re: Need help with Perl/Tk

[Andrew DeFaria]

Reini Urban wrote:
> 2007/12/13, Andrew DeFaria:
>> I'll say it again, it would be wonderful if Perl/Tk would work with
>> regular win32 graphical elements but nobody has bothered to develop that.
> Cygwin perl-Tk for native Win32 worked fine for several years, but stopped
> working some years ago. Since the maintainer is dead, the situation 
> didn't improve.
Damn maintainers dying and all. Do they really think that such a thing 
as death will stop their responsibilities! I must talk to satan!

(Tongue planted firmly in cheek...)
-- 
Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
I am in shape. Round is a shape!


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