Newbie request for Info:

Newbie request for Info:

[Michael Kelley]

Hey All!!,
As stated I'm a newbie to ALL of this. I am no dummy but I have no
experience in Linux/Unix beyond compiling Hello Word in C and in Java on
Unix machines.

Can you point me to "Linux/Unix for beginners" info on the net?

I work for a university so thus I am poor and would prefer online
documentation.

Thanks In Advance for your help.

--
Michael Kelley
mkelley@nmsu.edu



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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Gerrit P. Haase]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

<Am 2001-02-06 8:55 wars, als Michael Kelley schrieb:>
< Newbie request for Info: >

Hi Michael,

little bit of OT on this cygwin-list,

> Hey All!!,
> 
> Can you point me to "Linux/Unix for beginners" info on the net?
> 
> Thanks In Advance for your help.

that's the reason, why there has been no reply 'til now,
hiowever I do...

Little Unix-command reference at O'Reilly's website:
http://www.ora.de/catalog/unixcd/chapter/index.html

Another Reference at opengroup (Single Unix Specification)
http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xcuix.html
Search-engine for this:
http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/

Unix Refcard:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4466/unix.htm
Refcards for some software:
http://www.refcards.com/

Another collection:
http://www.elsop.com/wrc/unix_ref.htm

Unixhelp for users:
http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/

The Unix Reference Desk (Geek-Girl, best of all:)
http://www.geek-girl.com/unix.html

GNU Documentation from Delorie:
http://www.delorie.com/gnu/docs/

Beginners guide to Linux:
http://www.geocities.com/aboutlinux/

LDP (Linux Documentation Project):
http://www.ibiblio.org/mdw/index.html

Ciao,


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-- 
=^..^=
Gerrit Peter Haase
ID: 0x28A05137
FP: 875C 745E 01CF 8A34 2767  BE39 305E 5261 28A0 5137

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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:12:38PM +0100, Gerrit P. Haase wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
><Am 2001-02-06 8:55 wars, als Michael Kelley schrieb:>
>< Newbie request for Info: >
>
>Hi Michael,
>
>little bit of OT on this cygwin-list,
>
>> Hey All!!,
>> 
>> Can you point me to "Linux/Unix for beginners" info on the net?
>> 
>> Thanks In Advance for your help.
>
>that's the reason, why there has been no reply 'til now,
>hiowever I do...

Either that or people sent private email, realizing that this was
off-topic here...

cgf

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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Michael Kelley]

The main reason for this mailing on this list is not only am I new to 
CyGwin but also I am am completely unfamiliar with  Cygwin's originating 
platform (which I have been led to believe is Linux). I hoped that You 
who know could send me to places that were more relavent to Cygwin than 
to Linux.
I appologize for the unclarity of my request.
But I'm still in the same boat.

I want to learn to use Cygwin to it's fullest.

Where can I get the "How To's" and "What Are's" of Cygwin??

I have a basic understanding of C and come from the Mainframe & Windows 
environments. I'm not ready to jump straight into Linux/Unix so I see a 
great chance to learn using Cygwin.

Where should someone who doesn't understand the difference between gcc 
and g++ go to learn what they've got?
Where should I have gone to find out about using the & when issuing a 
bash command?
Basics & beginnings .......

How's about a Newbies mailing list? Where those of us who have NO CLUE 
can go to learn.

I'm here I'm staying I'm learning .... Hopefully someday I'll even be 
able to help port a few things to cygwin

Thanks for your time
Thanks for your product

Mike



Christopher Faylor wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:12:38PM +0100, Gerrit P. Haase wrote:
> 
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> <Am 2001-02-06 8:55 wars, als Michael Kelley schrieb:>
>> < Newbie request for Info: >
>> 
>> Hi Michael,
>> 
>> little bit of OT on this cygwin-list,
>> 
>>> Hey All!!,
>>> 
>>> Can you point me to "Linux/Unix for beginners" info on the net?
>>> 
>>> Thanks In Advance for your help.
>> 
>> that's the reason, why there has been no reply 'til now,
>> hiowever I do...
> 
> 
> Either that or people sent private email, realizing that this was
> off-topic here...
> 
> cgf
> 
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> 
> 
> 


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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:58:35PM -0700, Michael Kelley wrote:
>The main reason for this mailing on this list is not only am I new to 
>CyGwin but also I am am completely unfamiliar with  Cygwin's originating 
>platform (which I have been led to believe is Linux).

Cygwin is an implementation of UNIX-over-Windows.  It is not necessarily
Linux.  It does use GNU tools, though, so it is similar to Linux.

>I hoped that You 
>who know could send me to places that were more relavent to Cygwin than 
>to Linux.

We who know try to keep the Cygwin web page up-to-date with whatever
information we have available.

>I want to learn to use Cygwin to it's fullest.
>
>Where can I get the "How To's" and "What Are's" of Cygwin??

If they aren't available on the web page, then they probably don't exist.
Have you tried playing with the cygwin environment?  Seriously.  The best
way to learn anything on a computer is to play.

>I have a basic understanding of C and come from the Mainframe & Windows 
>environments. I'm not ready to jump straight into Linux/Unix so I see a 
>great chance to learn using Cygwin.

If you're interested in learning about linux/unix, then your best bet is to
do a to do a google.com search.  Since Cygwin is intended for people who
are already familiar with UNIX, there is no effort made on UNIX tutorials
for Cygwin.

As an analogy, asking for tutorials for UNIX in a Cygwin mailing list is somewhat
like asking for a detailed of French history from a Quebec native.  Quebec is
certainly a French-speaking province but it may not be the best place to gain
an understanding about France.

>Where should someone who doesn't understand the difference between gcc 
>and g++ go to learn what they've got?

The documentation.  "info gcc" or "info g++".

>Where should I have gone to find out about using the & when issuing a 
>bash command?

Dunno.  Maybe some kind of mailing list.  Check out deja.com.  comp.unix.shell
is one newsgroup that deals with bash.

>Basics & beginnings .......
>
>How's about a Newbies mailing list? Where those of us who have NO CLUE 
>can go to learn.

As I said, Cygwin is not intended to be a beginners entry into the wonderful
world of UNIX.  If you are interested in learning about aspects of UNIX,
check out www.oreilly.com (the site appears to be down now, unfortunately)
for a number of books about UNIX.

cgf

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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Earnie Boyd]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:58:35PM -0700, Michael Kelley wrote:
> >The main reason for this mailing on this list is not only am I new to
> >CyGwin but also I am am completely unfamiliar with  Cygwin's originating
> >platform (which I have been led to believe is Linux).
> 
> Cygwin is an implementation of UNIX-over-Windows.  It is not necessarily
> Linux.  It does use GNU tools, though, so it is similar to Linux.
> 
> >I hoped that You
> >who know could send me to places that were more relavent to Cygwin than
> >to Linux.
> 
> We who know try to keep the Cygwin web page up-to-date with whatever
> information we have available.
> 
> >I want to learn to use Cygwin to it's fullest.
> >
> >Where can I get the "How To's" and "What Are's" of Cygwin??
> 
> If they aren't available on the web page, then they probably don't exist.
> Have you tried playing with the cygwin environment?  Seriously.  The best
> way to learn anything on a computer is to play.
> 
> >I have a basic understanding of C and come from the Mainframe & Windows
> >environments. I'm not ready to jump straight into Linux/Unix so I see a
> >great chance to learn using Cygwin.
> 
> If you're interested in learning about linux/unix, then your best bet is to
> do a to do a google.com search.  Since Cygwin is intended for people who
> are already familiar with UNIX, there is no effort made on UNIX tutorials
> for Cygwin.
> 
> As an analogy, asking for tutorials for UNIX in a Cygwin mailing list is somewhat
> like asking for a detailed of French history from a Quebec native.  Quebec is
> certainly a French-speaking province but it may not be the best place to gain
> an understanding about France.
> 
> >Where should someone who doesn't understand the difference between gcc
> >and g++ go to learn what they've got?
> 
> The documentation.  "info gcc" or "info g++".
> 
> >Where should I have gone to find out about using the & when issuing a
> >bash command?
> 
> Dunno.  Maybe some kind of mailing list.  Check out deja.com.  comp.unix.shell
> is one newsgroup that deals with bash.
> 
> >Basics & beginnings .......
> >
> >How's about a Newbies mailing list? Where those of us who have NO CLUE
> >can go to learn.
> 
> As I said, Cygwin is not intended to be a beginners entry into the wonderful
> world of UNIX.  If you are interested in learning about aspects of UNIX,
> check out www.oreilly.com (the site appears to be down now, unfortunately)
> for a number of books about UNIX.
> 

Shouldn't it be www.ora.com?

Earnie.

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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Christopher Faylor]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:10:12AM -0500, Earnie Boyd wrote:
>Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:58:35PM -0700, Michael Kelley wrote:
>> >The main reason for this mailing on this list is not only am I new to
>> >CyGwin but also I am am completely unfamiliar with  Cygwin's originating
>> >platform (which I have been led to believe is Linux).
>> 
>> Cygwin is an implementation of UNIX-over-Windows.  It is not necessarily
>> Linux.  It does use GNU tools, though, so it is similar to Linux.
>> 
>> >I hoped that You
>> >who know could send me to places that were more relavent to Cygwin than
>> >to Linux.
>> 
>> We who know try to keep the Cygwin web page up-to-date with whatever
>> information we have available.
>> 
>> >I want to learn to use Cygwin to it's fullest.
>> >
>> >Where can I get the "How To's" and "What Are's" of Cygwin??
>> 
>> If they aren't available on the web page, then they probably don't exist.
>> Have you tried playing with the cygwin environment?  Seriously.  The best
>> way to learn anything on a computer is to play.
>> 
>> >I have a basic understanding of C and come from the Mainframe & Windows
>> >environments. I'm not ready to jump straight into Linux/Unix so I see a
>> >great chance to learn using Cygwin.
>> 
>> If you're interested in learning about linux/unix, then your best bet is to
>> do a to do a google.com search.  Since Cygwin is intended for people who
>> are already familiar with UNIX, there is no effort made on UNIX tutorials
>> for Cygwin.
>> 
>> As an analogy, asking for tutorials for UNIX in a Cygwin mailing list is somewhat
>> like asking for a detailed of French history from a Quebec native.  Quebec is
>> certainly a French-speaking province but it may not be the best place to gain
>> an understanding about France.
>> 
>> >Where should someone who doesn't understand the difference between gcc
>> >and g++ go to learn what they've got?
>> 
>> The documentation.  "info gcc" or "info g++".
>> 
>> >Where should I have gone to find out about using the & when issuing a
>> >bash command?
>> 
>> Dunno.  Maybe some kind of mailing list.  Check out deja.com.  comp.unix.shell
>> is one newsgroup that deals with bash.
>> 
>> >Basics & beginnings .......
>> >
>> >How's about a Newbies mailing list? Where those of us who have NO CLUE
>> >can go to learn.
>> 
>> As I said, Cygwin is not intended to be a beginners entry into the wonderful
>> world of UNIX.  If you are interested in learning about aspects of UNIX,
>> check out www.oreilly.com (the site appears to be down now, unfortunately)
>> for a number of books about UNIX.
>> 
>
>Shouldn't it be www.ora.com?

Maybe.  I actually did a google search to see where O'Reilly books were mentioned
and www.oreilly.com is at the top of the list.  FWIW, www.ora.com seems to be
down now, too.

cgf

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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Warren Young]

Earnie Boyd wrote:
> 
> Shouldn't it be www.ora.com?

O'Reilly officially changed over from ora.com to oreilly.com at least a
year ago.  I've tried it now and then since then -- sometimes it works,
sometimes it doesn't.  It's obviously just a redirector to oreilly.com,
judging from how quickly it responds.

I always preferred ora.com, for nostalgic reasons, but these days I get
there through hyperlinks from some other page 99% of the time, so it
doesn't matter one way or the other.
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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Earnie Boyd]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> As I said, Cygwin is not intended to be a beginners entry into the wonderful
> >> world of UNIX.  If you are interested in learning about aspects of UNIX,
> >> check out www.oreilly.com (the site appears to be down now, unfortunately)
> >> for a number of books about UNIX.
> >>
> >
> >Shouldn't it be www.ora.com?
> 
> Maybe.  I actually did a google search to see where O'Reilly books were mentioned
> and www.oreilly.com is at the top of the list.  FWIW, www.ora.com seems to be
> down now, too.
> 

Hmm...  I tried it before sending the post and it worked for me.

Earnie.

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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Christopher Faylor]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:06:48PM -0500, Earnie Boyd wrote:
>Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> 
>> >>
>> >> As I said, Cygwin is not intended to be a beginners entry into the wonderful
>> >> world of UNIX.  If you are interested in learning about aspects of UNIX,
>> >> check out www.oreilly.com (the site appears to be down now, unfortunately)
>> >> for a number of books about UNIX.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Shouldn't it be www.ora.com?
>> 
>> Maybe.  I actually did a google search to see where O'Reilly books were mentioned
>> and www.oreilly.com is at the top of the list.  FWIW, www.ora.com seems to be
>> down now, too.
>
>Hmm...  I tried it before sending the post and it worked for me.

Hmm.  Interesting.  I'm running the newest linux kernel with ECN turned
on and it doesn't allow me to access www.ora.com.  Looks like somebody's
got something busted somewhere long the line.

cgf

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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Markus Mauhart]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> 
>Michael Kelley wrote:
> >
> >I have a basic understanding of C and come from the Mainframe & Windows
> >environments. I'm not ready to jump straight into Linux/Unix so I see a
> >great chance to learn using Cygwin.
> 
> If you're interested in learning about linux/unix, then your best bet is to
> do a to do a google.com search. Since Cygwin is intended for people who
> are already familiar with UNIX, there is no effort made on UNIX tutorials
> for Cygwin.

Christopher, clearly you and your friends know best your reasons
to develop and use the cygwin environment, but why not learn about
other unintended positive side effects of cygwin ?

IMHO cygwin in its current state is the best way for NT programmers
to get used to many 'unix' tools WHILE STILL BEEING PRODUCTIVE.
Whithout cygwin, i could setup a linux machine (did this in 1999)
and play with it for 1 year, but without beeing productive:

Because without beeing an expert who knows what is available, how to
get it, how to configure it and who knows each tool's keyboard commands ..

1st I have no working shell (only 25 lines, no cut&past, no easy to
use line buffer like with NT cmd.exe, the keyboard behaves very unexpected
(home, end, esc, ctrl-left/right, F7..))

2nd I have no working text editor & text browser like borlands or MS's
programming IDE

3rd there simply exist no other file manager comparable with the one an only
NT winfile.exe (dont mix it with the w95/98 version which is crippleware)
which is lightning fast, fully keyboard controllable and allows to easily
browse 2 or 3 directories simultaneously or to switch between many other
directories (given that one knows how to use MDI applications) and is
tightly integrated with the shell (alt-f r cmd enter .. less than 1 s).

4th I have no fast and lean www browser which I need for the documentation
from the web (cygwin & all gnu tools, ..) (IE55 easily can be configured to
the absolutely minimum GUI, you need not be an expert for that, simply
open its options dialog and do it)

5th I have no consistent and rich keyboard interface for all applications
like with windows, where typically all commands are available through
menues and the menue entries have their shortcuts which are displayed in
the menue. E.g to minimize a console window or any other window the sequence
'alt-space n' works today, it worked with win31, and it will work in
5 years on windows 7.0.

6th hence for each real task I have to transfer the files and me to/from
my (NT) workstation.


Now there are uncountable advantages of a unix workstation and its toolset too
as you know. But for someone coming from the windows environment the 1st step to
learn about and use some of them IMO now is cygwin, thanks to your and your
friends efforts during the last years.

Back to what caused me to write this email: I am surprised that you havnt
realized (or dont mind) the fact that cygwin has a great potential to be
the trojan horse of unix & gnu inside the windows world.
When cygwin additionally would come with easy to use and powerfull standard
applications (mail reader, personal mail server & firewall, editor, filemanager;
easy means controllable through consistent menu's shortcuts, help menue -> open doc
in browser, ..), it would be only a small step to use the same applications
under unix/linux and to forget the windows workstation.


Mfg , Markus Mauhart.



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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 09:04:48PM +0100, Markus Mauhart wrote:
>Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> 
>>Michael Kelley wrote:
>> >
>> >I have a basic understanding of C and come from the Mainframe & Windows
>> >environments. I'm not ready to jump straight into Linux/Unix so I see a
>> >great chance to learn using Cygwin.
>> 
>> If you're interested in learning about linux/unix, then your best bet is to
>> do a to do a google.com search. Since Cygwin is intended for people who
>> are already familiar with UNIX, there is no effort made on UNIX tutorials
>> for Cygwin.
>
>Christopher, clearly you and your friends know best your reasons
>to develop and use the cygwin environment, but why not learn about
>other unintended positive side effects of cygwin ?

Primarily because I have no interest in making this mailing list a "UNIX
tutorial" mailing list.  The newbie level here is already quite high and
I really don't want to lower the bar still further.

I'm also not interested in setting up some other forum for dealing with
this.  You're welcome to do this yourself, of course.

I understand that you want to use it that way and that you want people
to teach you.  I don't see any reason to duplicate the intent of other
forums for this purpose.

>Back to what caused me to write this email: I am surprised that you havnt
>realized (or dont mind) the fact that cygwin has a great potential to be
>the trojan horse of unix & gnu inside the windows world.

Of course, I realize that this is a possibility.  Whether I want to, or have
the resources to, support extreme beginners is the question.

>When cygwin additionally would come with easy to use and powerfull standard
>applications (mail reader, personal mail server & firewall, editor, filemanager;
>easy means controllable through consistent menu's shortcuts, help menue -> open doc
>in browser, ..), it would be only a small step to use the same applications
>under unix/linux and to forget the windows workstation.

Cygwin does come with a mailreader and an editor.  I'm not interested in
developing gee whiz pointy clicky applications for it, however.  There are
plenty of those kind of applications available for linux.  There is no need
to invent more.

I've tried to show you where you could get help which is already available
on the internet.  You can use it or not.

Frankly, it seems to me that if you spent as much time trying to learn how
to use what you've got as you've put into trying to justify why we should
all support complete novices, you would no longer be a complete novice and
the question would be moot.

I don't plan on contributing to this thread any further.  I think I have
made my point as clear as I can make it.

cgf

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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Markus Mauhart]

Christopher Faylor wrote: 
>  
>I've tried to show you where you could get help which is already available
>on the internet.  You can use it or not.
>
>Frankly, it seems to me that if you spent as much time trying to learn how
>to use what you've got as you've put into trying to justify why we should
>all support complete novices, you would no longer be a complete novice and
>the question would be moot.
>
>I don't plan on contributing to this thread any further.  I think I have
>made my point as clear as I can make it.

Maybe I was unclear, but we were speaking of different things.
Till now I never asked somebody her in the list for some help
and my argumentation in no way was that this list or the cygwin
developer team should spend more time helping newbies.

Instead I wanted to point out the the current cygwin ("as is") together
with the documentation on the web (gnu.org, redhat) is a great help and
excellent starting point (IMHO the best) for experienced windows
programmers/users when starting to learn and use certain parts of the
unix stuff, especially when compared with a plain linux/unix box and
its contained tools and documentation; hence you shouldnt be surprised
to meet such people in this mailing list.

And actually I am one the minority who reads and considers very much
documentation before stealing other people's time.


Mfg , Markus Mauhart.

----------------------
Markus Mauhart
Schottenfeldg. 87-1-21
A-1070 Wien
Austria
email: Markus.Mauhart@chello.at
phone/fax: ++43-1-9.564.126


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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Charles S. Wilson]

Markus -

Yes, cygwin is probably the fastest way for a windowsite to dip a toe in
the unix/gnu/linux world and stay productive in the meantime.  Yes,
cygwin may act as a sort of trojan horse, sneaking "the unix way" into
"windows-only" shops. 

But that's off-topic for this list.

Cygwin provides a *platform* for doing unixy stuff on windows -- if
newbies have questions about the *peculiarities* of that platform, then
this is the place to ask.  E.g. *CYGWIN*-specific questions.  General
unix/gnu/linux questions or tutorial requests on unix/gnu/linux are
*not* appropriate here, and Chris is absolutely corrent in referring
people to more appropriate sources of information.

However, if you would like to provide a "Newbie's Guide to Learning Unix
without leaving the comfort [sic] of Windows, Using Cygwin" feel free. 
I'm sure Chris would LOVE to add a link to that page on the main cygwin
site (BTW, see Earnie's page on a similar subject:
http://gw32.freeyellow.com/index-cygwin.html )

--Chuck

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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Markus Mauhart]

Charles,


> However, if you would like to provide a "Newbie's Guide to Learning Unix
> without leaving the comfort [sic] of Windows, Using Cygwin" feel free. 

Actually I can only provide the "windows users Guide to Learning and using
Unix without leaving the comfort of a working Windows environment", but
the content is short and consists of only the sentence
"Use Cygwin, read the available documentation on gnu.org and redhat
and the mailing lists".

As soon as I have another tip or tool I will try to make it available.

> site (BTW, see Earnie's page on a similar subject:
> http://gw32.freeyellow.com/index-cygwin.html )

Just looked at it, yet another source of informentation for me to keep
in mind !-)


Markus.

----------------------
Markus Mauhart
Schottenfeldg. 87-1-21
A-1070 Wien
Austria
email: Markus.Mauhart@chello.at
phone/fax: ++43-1-9.564.126


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Re: (OT) Newbie request for Info

[Michael Kelley]

You know guys I started this thread and even though more than one person 
was agressive with the ** OFF TOPIC ** I got what I needed. A starting 
place to read and look. I started with cygwin's site and I was not 
finding the answers I needed. But  I got around 15 links (Including the 
one below) I read what I could understand and then I asked for help. 
Well I back to reading and playing .... You all place nice too .... K?



THANK YOU
to those who helped

Mike
Markus Mauhart wrote:

> Charles,
> 
> 
>> However, if you would like to provide a "Newbie's Guide to Learning Unix
>> without leaving the comfort [sic] of Windows, Using Cygwin" feel free. 
> 
> 
> Actually I can only provide the "windows users Guide to Learning and using
> Unix without leaving the comfort of a working Windows environment", but
> the content is short and consists of only the sentence
> "Use Cygwin, read the available documentation on gnu.org and redhat
> and the mailing lists".
> 
> As soon as I have another tip or tool I will try to make it available.
> 
>> site (BTW, see Earnie's page on a similar subject:
>> http://gw32.freeyellow.com/index-cygwin.html )
> 
> 
> Just looked at it, yet another source of informentation for me to keep
> in mind !-)
> 
> 
> Markus.
> 
> ----------------------
> Markus Mauhart
> Schottenfeldg. 87-1-21
> A-1070 Wien
> Austria
> email: Markus.Mauhart@chello.at
> phone/fax: ++43-1-9.564.126
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 


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