Why not a news server?

Why not a news server?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Why not simply set up a news server instead of this mail list. I find 
the mail list deficient in several areas. First and foremost it's noisy 
causing me to wade through all this email for topics I'm interested in. 
Secondly there's no easy or convenient way to response to individual 
issues (I get a digest of cygwin stuff emailed to me). Seems to me that 
nntp was designed specifically for such communications and a number of 
companies have set up news servers for such things.

Finally a number of times I receive a digest speaking of topics and 
articles but the email message is apparently truncated and the bodies of 
these articles are missing.

Comments? (I'm sure there will be some).



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Re: Why not a news server?

[Randall R Schulz]

Andrew,

A newsgroup won't change the signal-to-noise ratio nor alleviate effort on 
your part in sorting it all out.

Don't get the digest and you'll have solved all the digest-related problems.

Avail yourself of the abilities of mail clients to sort incoming message 
into different mailbox files. Any mail client worth its salt can do this, 
including some of the free / open-source ones.

Randall Schulz
Mountain View, CA USA


At 09:59 2002-02-01, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>Why not simply set up a news server instead of this mail list. I find the 
>mail list deficient in several areas. First and foremost it's noisy 
>causing me to wade through all this email for topics I'm interested in. 
>Secondly there's no easy or convenient way to response to individual 
>issues (I get a digest of cygwin stuff emailed to me). Seems to me that 
>nntp was designed specifically for such communications and a number of 
>companies have set up news servers for such things.
>
>Finally a number of times I receive a digest speaking of topics and 
>articles but the email message is apparently truncated and the bodies of 
>these articles are missing.
>
>Comments? (I'm sure there will be some).


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RE: Why not a news server?

[Daniel Adams]

I will be the first one to make a comment of a NNTP server for hosting this
group and possibly the other groups for Cygwin, isn't that after all what a
NNTP group is designed for. I would be one to second Andrew's idea because
of the idea that often times I am in need of searching about a certain idea
in the archives and not only does it bring up the relative needed
information, it also brings up stuff from many years back.

Sincerely,
Daniel Adams - dpa3@dana.ucc.nau.edu
http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3

  1 Peter 4:10 (NIV)-  Each one should use whatever gift he has received to
serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.

-----Original Message-----
From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
Of Andrew DeFaria
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:00 AM
To: cygwin@cygwin.com
Subject: Why not a news server?


Why not simply set up a news server instead of this mail list. I find
the mail list deficient in several areas. First and foremost it's noisy
causing me to wade through all this email for topics I'm interested in.
Secondly there's no easy or convenient way to response to individual
issues (I get a digest of cygwin stuff emailed to me). Seems to me that
nntp was designed specifically for such communications and a number of
companies have set up news servers for such things.

Finally a number of times I receive a digest speaking of topics and
articles but the email message is apparently truncated and the bodies of
these articles are missing.

Comments? (I'm sure there will be some).



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Re: Why not a news server?

[Peter Buckley]

I like the mailing list. I don't have a news server at work, so I 
wouldn't be able to access a newsgroup like we are discussing. I have no 
problem searching the mailing list archives with google- I wasn't aware 
that there was a date at which the MLA were truncated- I have seen stuff 
a few years back IIRC. I tried a different mailing list with a "digest 
version" and it was awful- I won't try any digests any time soon, I 
simply wipe out my cygwin-email folder when it gets around 1000 messages 
and rely on the archives.

-Peter

Daniel Adams wrote:

> I will be the first one to make a comment of a NNTP server for hosting this
> group and possibly the other groups for Cygwin, isn't that after all what a
> NNTP group is designed for. I would be one to second Andrew's idea because
> of the idea that often times I am in need of searching about a certain idea
> in the archives and not only does it bring up the relative needed
> information, it also brings up stuff from many years back.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Daniel Adams - dpa3@dana.ucc.nau.edu
> http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3
> 
>   1 Peter 4:10 (NIV)-  Each one should use whatever gift he has received to
> serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
> Of Andrew DeFaria
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:00 AM
> To: cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: Why not a news server?
> 
> 
> Why not simply set up a news server instead of this mail list. I find
> the mail list deficient in several areas. First and foremost it's noisy
> causing me to wade through all this email for topics I'm interested in.
> Secondly there's no easy or convenient way to response to individual
> issues (I get a digest of cygwin stuff emailed to me). Seems to me that
> nntp was designed specifically for such communications and a number of
> companies have set up news servers for such things.
> 
> Finally a number of times I receive a digest speaking of topics and
> articles but the email message is apparently truncated and the bodies of
> these articles are missing.
> 
> Comments? (I'm sure there will be some).
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Why not a news server?

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 12:59 PM 2/1/2002, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>Why not simply set up a news server instead of this mail list. I find the mail list deficient in several areas. First and foremost it's noisy causing me to wade through all this email for topics I'm interested in. Secondly there's no easy or convenient way to response to individual issues (I get a digest of cygwin stuff emailed to me). Seems to me that nntp was designed specifically for such communications and a number of companies have set up news servers for such things.
>
>Finally a number of times I receive a digest speaking of topics and articles but the email message is apparently truncated and the bodies of these articles are missing.
>
>Comments? (I'm sure there will be some).


Well at least it's been years since this topic came up.  It used to come
up every few months. :-(  

OK, there are differences now compared to when this topic was last
discussed so maybe it warrants "discussion".  However, I'd highly 
recommend that anyone that wishes to discuss this review the email list
archives.  I think it was generally agreed that no one objected to the
use of a news server so long as it didn't replace the email list.

In this context, I believe the main reason that a news server has never 
been implemented is that no one has volunteered to set one up and run it.
So, I guess if you're interested in having one, you can have one if you
or someone else is willing to do the work to create and maintain it.
Not to sound too pessimistic but pointing out this fact in the past was
enough to kill the thread... for a while.





Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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RE: Why not a news server?

[Stephano Mariani]

Why should a news server replace a mailing list? Has someone seen the
PHP mailing list recently? All items on the list are also put on a news
server automatically, likewise with news items being posted to the
mailing list subscribers so that users have both options.

Stephano Mariani

-----Original Message-----
From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf
Of Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Sent: Friday, 1 February 2002 6 25
To: Andrew DeFaria; cygwin@cygwin.com
Subject: Re: Why not a news server?

At 12:59 PM 2/1/2002, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>Why not simply set up a news server instead of this mail list. I find
the mail list deficient in several areas. First and foremost it's noisy
causing me to wade through all this email for topics I'm interested in.
Secondly there's no easy or convenient way to response to individual
issues (I get a digest of cygwin stuff emailed to me). Seems to me that
nntp was designed specifically for such communications and a number of
companies have set up news servers for such things.
>
>Finally a number of times I receive a digest speaking of topics and
articles but the email message is apparently truncated and the bodies of
these articles are missing.
>
>Comments? (I'm sure there will be some).


Well at least it's been years since this topic came up.  It used to come
up every few months. :-(  

OK, there are differences now compared to when this topic was last
discussed so maybe it warrants "discussion".  However, I'd highly 
recommend that anyone that wishes to discuss this review the email list
archives.  I think it was generally agreed that no one objected to the
use of a news server so long as it didn't replace the email list.

In this context, I believe the main reason that a news server has never 
been implemented is that no one has volunteered to set one up and run
it.
So, I guess if you're interested in having one, you can have one if you
or someone else is willing to do the work to create and maintain it.
Not to sound too pessimistic but pointing out this fact in the past was
enough to kill the thread... for a while.





Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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RE: Why not a news server?

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

Actually, I didn't say that the news server should or has to replace the 
email list.  I personally don't believe that is the case at all.
I was simply reiterating the major concern of the previous discussions on 
this subject.  If the new server did replace the list, it was clear that
at least some members of the Cygwin community would perceive this as a 
loss.  So the conclusion was that the news server must be *in addition
to* the Cygwin email list, not replacing it.  There was never any 
dissenting remarks concerning the news server once it was 'decided' that
both could exist concurrently.  Also, I don't believe that anyone ever
believed it would not be technically possible to create and maintain both
the email list and the news server (which I believe is what your comment
about the PHP mailing list is meant to clarify).  The only thing that
has been missing in the past is the interest by someone to actually make
the news server a reality.

Sorry if my original explanation of the previous discussions on this 
subject made my point unclear to you.

Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX




At 03:29 PM 2/1/2002, Stephano Mariani wrote:
>Why should a news server replace a mailing list? Has someone seen the
>PHP mailing list recently? All items on the list are also put on a news
>server automatically, likewise with news items being posted to the
>mailing list subscribers so that users have both options.
>
>Stephano Mariani
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf
>Of Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
>Sent: Friday, 1 February 2002 6 25
>To: Andrew DeFaria; cygwin@cygwin.com
>Subject: Re: Why not a news server?
>
>At 12:59 PM 2/1/2002, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
> >Why not simply set up a news server instead of this mail list. I find
>the mail list deficient in several areas. First and foremost it's noisy
>causing me to wade through all this email for topics I'm interested in.
>Secondly there's no easy or convenient way to response to individual
>issues (I get a digest of cygwin stuff emailed to me). Seems to me that
>nntp was designed specifically for such communications and a number of
>companies have set up news servers for such things.
> >
> >Finally a number of times I receive a digest speaking of topics and
>articles but the email message is apparently truncated and the bodies of
>these articles are missing.
> >
> >Comments? (I'm sure there will be some).
>
>
>Well at least it's been years since this topic came up.  It used to come
>up every few months. :-(  
>
>OK, there are differences now compared to when this topic was last
>discussed so maybe it warrants "discussion".  However, I'd highly 
>recommend that anyone that wishes to discuss this review the email list
>archives.  I think it was generally agreed that no one objected to the
>use of a news server so long as it didn't replace the email list.
>
>In this context, I believe the main reason that a news server has never 
>been implemented is that no one has volunteered to set one up and run
>it.
>So, I guess if you're interested in having one, you can have one if you
>or someone else is willing to do the work to create and maintain it.
>Not to sound too pessimistic but pointing out this fact in the past was
>enough to kill the thread... for a while.
>
>
>
>
>
>Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
>RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
>838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
>Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX
>
>
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Re: Why not a news server?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:

> At 02:06 PM 2/1/2002, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>
>> Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:
>>
>>> OK, there are differences now compared to when this topic was last 
>>> discussed so maybe it warrants "discussion". However, I'd highly 
>>> recommend that anyone that wishes to discuss this review the email list
>>> archives.
>>
>> See that's just the thing. AFAIK searching the email list archives is 
>> not convenient nor easy.
>
> Have you tried it? Just curious since you preface your statement with 
> AFAIK, which implies you don't have personal experience. I won't 
>  suggest that looking in the mail list archives is not trying at 
> times. It's usually most frustrating when you look for something that 
> isn't indexed the way you think of it. AFAIK a news server doesn't 
> make that easier but I have no experience searching on a news server. 
> In any case, I, like others in the discussions of yore, have no 
> objections to a  news server for the Cygwin list in addition to the 
> mail list. I think if someone stepped forward to create and maintain 
> one, no one would object  to it's announcement on the Cygwin list.

Yes I've tried it. It's OK. Really don't like the "threading" as per se. 
Often get lost trying to track down a thread. No news servers do not 
make searching that much more easier but IMHO they make discussing 
things much more easier, which is, after all, what this list is about, 
discussing Cygwin.

And again, currently this is not very convenient. For example, Larry 
here emailed me directly at my work email address about this topic. I 
hit reply and replied to him. But our discussion did not go to the 
Cygwin mail list. I noticed, just as it was too late, that I forgot to 
add on the cygwin@cygwin.com, so you all didn't get that first response. 
Then Larry emails me again, continuing our discussion of this issue. 
This time I remembered. As I said email is not conducive to discussions, 
which is why news and news servers exist no? Also, as has been stated, 
it's a big waste of bandwidth and space to send everybody a copy of the 
thread, especially since rarely is anybody interested in all of it.

>>> I think it was generally agreed that no one objected to the use of a 
>>> news server so long as it didn't replace the email list.
>>>
>>> In this context, I believe the main reason that a news server has 
>>> never been implemented is that no one has volunteered to set one up 
>>> and run it. So, I guess if you're interested in having one, you can 
>>> have one if you or someone else is willing to do the work to create 
>>> and maintain it. Not to sound too pessimistic but pointing out this 
>>> fact in the past was enough to kill the thread... for a while.
>>
>> Creating it and maintaining it is one thing. Getting the equipment 
>> and connection to have it accessable is another. But that is not 
>> necessary, why not simply have something lick comp.os.cygwin?!?
>
> Similar suggestions were made in the past. Would you like to get the 
> ball rolling by going through the process of creating the group?

Well there's a downside to this too. You see a comp.os.cygwin group 
would be great in general. But in specific my company doesn't have a 
news server either. So I could not read the comp.os.cygwin news group at 
work (where I need it more) save using something like groups.google.com 
or something else like that (which I hate). I can, however, read news 
from say Netscape and Microsoft and other company hosted news groups. 
And you don't need to be big to have company hosted news groups. For 
example, Twelve Tone Systems (makers of Cakewalk, a music sequencing 
program) have a news server as well as even individual, not so company 
oriented places like Steve Gibson's grc.com And Julian Haight's 
spamcop.net.. However such a news server needs to be hosted and I do not 
have the resources to host such (unless ya'll want to hit my DSLed 
Windows XP box at my house and will chip in for a new hard drive! :-).


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Re: Why not a news server?

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 03:49 PM 2/1/2002, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:
>
>>At 02:06 PM 2/1/2002, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>>
>>>Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:
>>>
>>>>OK, there are differences now compared to when this topic was last discussed so maybe it warrants "discussion". However, I'd highly recommend that anyone that wishes to discuss this review the email list
>>>>archives.
>>>
>>>See that's just the thing. AFAIK searching the email list archives is not convenient nor easy.
>>
>>Have you tried it? Just curious since you preface your statement with AFAIK, which implies you don't have personal experience. I won't  suggest that looking in the mail list archives is not trying at times. It's usually most frustrating when you look for something that isn't indexed the way you think of it. AFAIK a news server doesn't make that easier but I have no experience searching on a news server. In any case, I, like others in the discussions of yore, have no objections to a  news server for the Cygwin list in addition to the mail list. I think if someone stepped forward to create and maintain one, no one would object  to it's announcement on the Cygwin list.
>
>Yes I've tried it. It's OK. Really don't like the "threading" as per se. Often get lost trying to track down a thread. No news servers do not make searching that much more easier but IMHO they make discussing things much more easier, which is, after all, what this list is about, discussing Cygwin.


OK, that's fine.  It just wasn't clear to me whether you used it or not,
based on your response.


>And again, currently this is not very convenient. For example, Larry here emailed me directly at my work email address about this topic. I hit reply and replied to him. But our discussion did not go to the Cygwin mail list. I noticed, just as it was too late, that I forgot to add on the cygwin@cygwin.com, so you all didn't get that first response. Then Larry emails me again, continuing our discussion of this issue. This time I remembered. As I said email is not conducive to discussions, which is why news and news servers exist no? Also, as has been stated, it's a big waste of bandwidth and space to send everybody a copy of the thread, especially since rarely is anybody interested in all of it.


Actually, I think the problem was at your end.  I replied to all so my
response (originally) went to the list (and you).  You probably got two
responses.  When you replied, you didn't reply to all, so only I got the 
response.  Unlike allot of other frequent responders to the list, I don't 
reset my 'Reply-To' field to point to cygwin@cygwin.com when I respond.  
It's just a choice.  I don't object to anyone doing this (or not).  I also 
don't generally redirect email that folks send directly to me back to the 
list.  Again, I have no problem with folks doing that.  I just don't 
generally myself (for reasons that aren't really germane to this thread).

However, I would like to point out that while these are good arguments 
for having a news server for Cygwin, I don't believe that the Cygwin
community needs to be convinced of this.  So long as there is the option
of using either the news server or the mailing list (or both), I think 
most would agree that it is a win for everybody.  So I don't think anybody
needs to justify the argument.  That's been done before as well.  What has 
been missing in the past has been the 'follow-up' to the discussion of the 
news server.  So, just so it's clear, the reason we don't already have a 
news server is that no one was interested *enough* to set one up and 
maintain it, although there has always seemed to be quite a bit of 
interest in discussing the need or desire to have a news server.  


>>>>I think it was generally agreed that no one objected to the use of a news server so long as it didn't replace the email list.
>>>>
>>>>In this context, I believe the main reason that a news server has never been implemented is that no one has volunteered to set one up and run it. So, I guess if you're interested in having one, you can have one if you or someone else is willing to do the work to create and maintain it. Not to sound too pessimistic but pointing out this fact in the past was enough to kill the thread... for a while.
>>>
>>>Creating it and maintaining it is one thing. Getting the equipment and connection to have it accessable is another. But that is not necessary, why not simply have something lick comp.os.cygwin?!?
>>
>>Similar suggestions were made in the past. Would you like to get the ball rolling by going through the process of creating the group?
>
>Well there's a downside to this too. You see a comp.os.cygwin group would be great in general. But in specific my company doesn't have a news server either. So I could not read the comp.os.cygwin news group at work (where I need it more) save using something like groups.google.com or something else like that (which I hate). I can, however, read news from say Netscape and Microsoft and other company hosted news groups. And you don't need to be big to have company hosted news groups. For example, Twelve Tone Systems (makers of Cakewalk, a music sequencing program) have a news server as well as even individual, not so company oriented places like Steve Gibson's grc.com And Julian Haight's spamcop.net.. However such a news server needs to be hosted and I do not have the resources to host such (unless ya'll want to hit my DSLed Windows XP box at my house and will chip in for a new hard drive! :-).

Right.  And that's been the problem in the past as well.  No one wanted
to take the idea and make it a reality, for whatever reason.  That's fine.
However, discussion is only good if it leads to eventual action on 
someone's part.  So far, this topic has never blossomed to this end.  So
my point in speaking up is that this discussion is rather pointless unless
someone wants to take this idea and run with it.  If someone does want to 
do this, then the thread is at an end with a simple message to this list
announcing the intention or the existence of the news server.  If someone
doesn't want to create and manage the news server, this thread can still
continue but it will just be a rehash of what's already in the email 
archives.  If it comes to that, I think we would all be better off if we're
spared that duplication.  

OK, 'nuff said.

Thanks,


Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: Why not a news server?

[Greg Mosier]

Yeah, I've too noticed this inconvience of having to use reply all to get it
to go back to the list.  The most frustrating thing about this is that this
is a setting in the listserv software, whether it be elzm, mailman,
majordomo, or listserv.  The person that has set this up has configured it
so that the default reply to address is that of the send instead of the
list.  A simple change in the configuration would alleviate that and would
likely increase participation on the list.  As an example, let's say Joe has
a problem but I have no clue what his resolution might be.  However, John
replies to it and suggests something to Joe.  John's suggestion isn't the
solution, but it sparks recollection in the minds of others as the what the
resolution indeed is.  Now, if John's reply never makes it to the list then
you lose that possibility.  Then, when someone has something to say to
someone that is off topic they can switch the email addresses quite easily.

Cheers,
Greg Mosier

From: "Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)" <lhall@rfk.com>
Subject: Re: Why not a news server?


> >And again, currently this is not very convenient. For example, Larry here
emailed me directly at my work email address about this topic. I hit reply
and replied to him. But our discussion did not go to the Cygwin mail list. I
noticed, just as it was too late, that I forgot to add on the
cygwin@cygwin.com, so you all didn't get that first response. Then Larry
emails me again, continuing our discussion of this issue. This time I
remembered. As I said email is not conducive to discussions, which is why
news and news servers exist no? Also, as has been stated, it's a big waste
of bandwidth and space to send everybody a copy of the thread, especially
since rarely is anybody interested in all of it.
>
>
> Actually, I think the problem was at your end.  I replied to all so my
> response (originally) went to the list (and you).  You probably got two
> responses.  When you replied, you didn't reply to all, so only I got the
> response.  Unlike allot of other frequent responders to the list, I don't
> reset my 'Reply-To' field to point to cygwin@cygwin.com when I respond.
> It's just a choice.  I don't object to anyone doing this (or not).  I also
> don't generally redirect email that folks send directly to me back to the
> list.  Again, I have no problem with folks doing that.  I just don't
> generally myself (for reasons that aren't really germane to this thread).



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Re: Why not a news server?

[Robert Collins]

===
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Mosier" <Greg.Mosier@USA.Net>
To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: Why not a news server?


> Yeah, I've too noticed this inconvience of having to use reply all to
get it
> to go back to the list.  The most frustrating thing about this is that
this
> is a setting in the listserv software, whether it be elzm, mailman,
> majordomo, or listserv.  The person that has set this up has
configured it
> so that the default reply to address is that of the send instead of
the
> list.  A simple change in the configuration would alleviate that and
would
> likely increase participation on the list.  As an example, let's say
Joe has
> a problem but I have no clue what his resolution might be.  However,
John
> replies to it and suggests something to Joe.  John's suggestion isn't
the
> solution, but it sparks recollection in the minds of others as the
what the
> resolution indeed is.  Now, if John's reply never makes it to the list
then
> you lose that possibility.  Then, when someone has something to say to
> someone that is off topic they can switch the email addresses quite
easily.

This too has been debated ad inifinitum. There are valid points for and
against doing this.

However, the principal of least surprise requires not doing it, and for
a list that gets many non-subscriber posts, that *also* prohibits
rewriting the reply-to.

Rob


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Re: Why not a news server?

[Greg Mosier]

From: "Robert Collins" <robert.collins@itdomain.com.au>
Subject: Re: Why not a news server?


> > to go back to the list.  The most frustrating thing about this is that
> this
> > is a setting in the listserv software, whether it be elzm, mailman,
> > majordomo, or listserv.  The person that has set this up has
> configured it
> > so that the default reply to address is that of the send instead of
> the
> > list.  A simple change in the configuration would alleviate that and
>
> This too has been debated ad inifinitum. There are valid points for and
> against doing this.
>
> However, the principal of least surprise requires not doing it, and for
> a list that gets many non-subscriber posts, that *also* prohibits
> rewriting the reply-to.

Well, the valid arguement against that, would of course be, if they want an
answer bad enough have them search the archives of the list for it, or else
join the list for the short time that it takes them to resolve their issue.
I mean, really, should a list be supportive of it's long standing members or
people that don't have the time to invest in finding an answer for
themselves via subbing or searching archives.

Just my two cents,
Greg Mosier



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Re: Why not a news server?

[Charles Wilson]

"Reply-To" munging has also been discussed on this list previously. 
Please familiarize yourself with the arguments that have already been 
hashed out on this list in the past before continuing this line of 
discussion.

Also, see '"Reply To" Munging Considered Harmful' :
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

--Chuck


Greg Mosier wrote:

> Yeah, I've too noticed this inconvience of having to use reply all to get it
> to go back to the list.  The most frustrating thing about this is that this
> is a setting in the listserv software, whether it be elzm, mailman,
> majordomo, or listserv.  The person that has set this up has configured it
> so that the default reply to address is that of the send instead of the
> list.  A simple change in the configuration would alleviate that and would
> likely increase participation on the list.  As an example, let's say Joe has
> a problem but I have no clue what his resolution might be.  However, John
> replies to it and suggests something to Joe.  John's suggestion isn't the
> solution, but it sparks recollection in the minds of others as the what the
> resolution indeed is.  Now, if John's reply never makes it to the list then
> you lose that possibility.  Then, when someone has something to say to
> someone that is off topic they can switch the email addresses quite easily.
> 
> Cheers,
> Greg Mosier
> 
> From: "Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)" <lhall@rfk.com>
> Subject: Re: Why not a news server?
> 
> 
> 
>>>And again, currently this is not very convenient. For example, Larry here
>>>
> emailed me directly at my work email address about this topic. I hit reply
> and replied to him. But our discussion did not go to the Cygwin mail list. I
> noticed, just as it was too late, that I forgot to add on the
> cygwin@cygwin.com, so you all didn't get that first response. Then Larry
> emails me again, continuing our discussion of this issue. This time I
> remembered. As I said email is not conducive to discussions, which is why
> news and news servers exist no? Also, as has been stated, it's a big waste
> of bandwidth and space to send everybody a copy of the thread, especially
> since rarely is anybody interested in all of it.
> 
>>
>>Actually, I think the problem was at your end.  I replied to all so my
>>response (originally) went to the list (and you).  You probably got two
>>responses.  When you replied, you didn't reply to all, so only I got the
>>response.  Unlike allot of other frequent responders to the list, I don't
>>reset my 'Reply-To' field to point to cygwin@cygwin.com when I respond.
>>It's just a choice.  I don't object to anyone doing this (or not).  I also
>>don't generally redirect email that folks send directly to me back to the
>>list.  Again, I have no problem with folks doing that.  I just don't
>>generally myself (for reasons that aren't really germane to this thread).
>>
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Why not a news server?

[Greg Mosier]

From: "Charles Wilson" <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: Why not a news server?


> "Reply-To" munging has also been discussed on this list previously.
> Please familiarize yourself with the arguments that have already been
> hashed out on this list in the past before continuing this line of
> discussion.
>
> Also, see '"Reply To" Munging Considered Harmful' :
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
>
> --Chuck

Well, not to be a pain about this, but being that you're primarily
suggesting that I familiarize myself with the list history shouldn't you
have taken the time to notice that it wasn't I that started the thread, that
I was only replying to it?  Sorry if that sounds offensive any, it's been a
bad day <g>.

Cheers,
Greg



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Re: Why not a news server?

[Charles Wilson]

Greg Mosier wrote:


>>"Reply-To" munging has also been discussed on this list previously.
>>Please familiarize yourself with the arguments that have already been
>>hashed out on this list in the past before continuing this line of
>>discussion.
>>
>>Also, see '"Reply To" Munging Considered Harmful' :
>>http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
>>
>>--Chuck
>>
> 
> Well, not to be a pain about this, but being that you're primarily
> suggesting that I familiarize myself with the list history shouldn't you
> have taken the time to notice that it wasn't I that started the thread, that
> I was only replying to it?  Sorry if that sounds offensive any, it's been a
> bad day <g>.


I did notice that.  My point was that *you*, since *you* made the 
suggestion about "Reply-To" headers -- *you* should become familiar with 
previous discussions about ** "Reply-To" headers **.  Not newsgroups vs. 
mailing lists.

I was not replying on the newsgroup vs mailing list topic, which you 
didn't start.  I was replying on the "Reply-To" subthread -- which you 
*did* start.

--Chuck



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Re: Why not a news server?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:59:36AM -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>Why not simply set up a news server instead of this mail list.

Because we're mean.

cgf

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Why not a news server?

[Andrew DeFaria]

    You ask why not? Let me answer that with a question. How many people
    do you know that have a news reader but don't have an email client?
    Chances are that it's slim to none while on the other hand you'll
    have a great number of people that don't have a news reader but do
    have email.


News reading clients are a dime a dozen. Many, if not most, people 
already have them though may not be aware that they do.

    Using a news server for something that people aren't forced to use
    will limit your subscriber base simply because there are those, such
    as myself, that just don't have the time to fool with finding a good
    reader, learn it, and then use it accordingly. As they say, two
    heads are better than one, but when you start using a format that is
    foreign to a majority of the internet masses you're going to start
    limiting your creative pool.

In general, news was invented precisely for what this email based list 
is trying to do: Discuss stuff. The "limitations" you suggest did not 
stop companies like Netscape, Twelve Tone Systems, Microsoft, Spamcop 
and GRC from setting up news servers. Reading news is *NOT* that hard to do.

    Just to belay the comments on this, no one needs to suggest that
    Outlook Express comes with a news reader because I've toyed with it,
    and from my experience and from what I've been told by others, it's
    a joke of a reader.

Lots of readers are jokes to some and serious tools to others. I, for 
example, think Outlook is a joke but it is used by a ton of people. Pick 
your favorite client. There are good ones.

    As for your issue with corrupted messages, why not just switch to
    regular delivery and setup your mail client to move all messages
    from this list into a folder of it's own? A good email client will
    even sort email messages based on subject similar to that of the
    method a news server stores messages. It's just my opinion, but as
    far as I can see the only real advantage to using 'news' instead of
    a listserv is that you're not wasting bandwidth on people that
    aren't even reading the list.

Because I do not feel like having to pour though a ton of messages 
wasting space on my systems to weed out the junk and have to manage 
cleaning up all the stuff I'm not interested it. News servers were 
created exactly to address this issue. It is the medium developed 
exactly for what we are trying to do here. Am I so wrong to ask why we 
are not using the medium?!?.




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Re: Why not a news server?

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 06:30 PM 2/5/2002, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>Because I do not feel like having to pour though a ton of messages wasting space on my systems to weed out the junk and have to manage cleaning up all the stuff I'm not interested it. News servers were created exactly to address this issue. It is the medium developed exactly for what we are trying to do here. Am I so wrong to ask why we are not using the medium?!?.


No.  However, if you're looking for the answer to the question, you're 
going to have to review this thread (and others like it).  I appreciate
your need to organize your messages in a way that's convenient for you
but I'm not going to repeat what's already been said on this issue in 
this thread and others like it.  

Hopefully everyone is now clear as to why there is not already a news
server for Cygwin.  If you are not and are curious, please review the 
list archives to find the answer.  It's time this thread died until 
someone is ready to do more than talk about the need or benefits of
a news server.  When that point is reached, I'm sure we'll all appreciate
the single email message to this list that it takes to announce the 
existence of the new service.






Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: Why not a news server?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 03:30:25PM -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>News servers were created exactly to address this issue.  It is the
>medium developed exactly for what we are trying to do here.  Am I so
>wrong to ask why we are not using the medium?!?.

As a wild guess, I suppose because a newsgroup isn't available?

If you feel this strongly about a news server then I see no reason why
you shouldn't set one up.  I'll be happy to advertise the service on
the cygwin web site.

I'd suggest that you gateway the cygwin mailing list into news, and
vice versa.  That would probably be optimum.

I have several other great ideas which I'll be happy to share with you
once you've gotten your service set up.

cgf

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Re: Why not a news server?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Christopher Faylor wrote:

>On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 03:30:25PM -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>
>>News servers were created exactly to address this issue.  It is the
>>medium developed exactly for what we are trying to do here.  Am I so
>>wrong to ask why we are not using the medium?!?.
>>
>As a wild guess, I suppose because a newsgroup isn't available?
>
>If you feel this strongly about a news server then I see no reason why
>you shouldn't set one up.  I'll be happy to advertise the service on
>the cygwin web site.
>
>I'd suggest that you gateway the cygwin mailing list into news, and
>vice versa.  That would probably be optimum.
>
>I have several other great ideas which I'll be happy to share with you
>once you've gotten your service set up.
>
>cgf
>
As I just got through mentioning to Larry I would take a shot at setting 
it up however I lack the resources (a machine, the software and the 
space). Hosting this from my home PC is probably not a good idea.


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Re: Why not a news server?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 04:19:15PM -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 03:30:25PM -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>>>News servers were created exactly to address this issue.  It is the
>>>medium developed exactly for what we are trying to do here.  Am I so
>>>wrong to ask why we are not using the medium?!?.
>>
>>As a wild guess, I suppose because a newsgroup isn't available?
>>
>>If you feel this strongly about a news server then I see no reason why
>>you shouldn't set one up.  I'll be happy to advertise the service on
>>the cygwin web site.
>>
>>I'd suggest that you gateway the cygwin mailing list into news, and
>>vice versa.  That would probably be optimum.
>>
>>I have several other great ideas which I'll be happy to share with you
>>once you've gotten your service set up.
>>
>As I just got through mentioning to Larry I would take a shot at
>setting it up however I lack the resources (a machine, the software and
>the space).  Hosting this from my home PC is probably not a good idea.

Maybe you should investigate the internet and see if there is a site
available which provides this type of service.  A quick scan of google.com
seems to indicate that there are some sites which will do this for free.

cgf

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Re: Why not a news server?

[James Potts (Arek)]

> I'd suggest that you gateway the cygwin mailing list into news, and
> vice versa.  That would probably be optimum.

Great idea, but it has to be done right - you can't just forward a raw news
message to the mailing list.  Some news/e-mail clients (Outlook Express, for
example) will try to open it as a news message, which messes things up.

Just a word of caution to anybody considering setting up a news server for
the cygwin mailing list(s).

James Potts
(james@verge-rpg.com)



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Re: Why not a news server?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 06:36:23PM -0600, James Potts (Arek) wrote:
>>I'd suggest that you gateway the cygwin mailing list into news, and
>>vice versa.  That would probably be optimum.
>
>Great idea, but it has to be done right - you can't just forward a raw
>news message to the mailing list.  Some news/e-mail clients (Outlook
>Express, for example) will try to open it as a news message, which
>messes things up.

I assume that anyone who does this will use one of the programs available
for handling this type of thing.

cgf

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Re: Why not a news server?

[Per Abrahamsen]

Christopher Faylor <cgf@redhat.com> writes:

> If you feel this strongly about a news server then I see no reason why
> you shouldn't set one up.  I'll be happy to advertise the service on
> the cygwin web site.

There is a nntp gateway of this group at 

      < nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin >

> I have several other great ideas which I'll be happy to share with you
> once you've gotten your service set up.

      < nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.discuss >

is the place to discuss the gmane groups.


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Re: Why not a news server?

[Daniel Adams]

I will say my 2c once again, I am rather glad to have this setup because I
believe it will allow for a lot more than simply an e-mail group. Often
times I am thinking about something about a month or two after it has been
discussed, and frankly an nntp server group is easier to search than some
mailing list archives. One reason is that a person can use which ever front
end reader they prefer, including most of the ones that are part of Un*x to
read e-mail. I had been using pine for the group, now I have OE 6.0 which is
the one I would rather have.

As far as the info to have on the cygwin website, how about the stuff that I
had attached in my message, telling people how to get to the newsgroup,
Christopher?
--
Sincerely,
Daniel Adams - dpa3@dana.ucc.nau.edu
http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3

  1 Peter 4:10 (NIV)-  Each one should use whatever gift he has received to
serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.

"Per Abrahamsen" <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> wrote in message
news:rj3d00w7ln.fsf@ssv2.dina.kvl.dk...
> Christopher Faylor <cgf@redhat.com> writes:
>
> > If you feel this strongly about a news server then I see no reason why
> > you shouldn't set one up.  I'll be happy to advertise the service on
> > the cygwin web site.
>
> There is a nntp gateway of this group at
>
>       < nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin >
>
> > I have several other great ideas which I'll be happy to share with you
> > once you've gotten your service set up.
>
>       < nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.discuss >
>
> is the place to discuss the gmane groups.
>
>
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Re: Why not a news server?

[Christopher Faylor]

Please go to http://cygwin.com/ and post a news item.

cgf

On Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 04:54:02PM -0700, Daniel Adams wrote:
>I will say my 2c once again, I am rather glad to have this setup because I
>believe it will allow for a lot more than simply an e-mail group. Often
>times I am thinking about something about a month or two after it has been
>discussed, and frankly an nntp server group is easier to search than some
>mailing list archives. One reason is that a person can use which ever front
>end reader they prefer, including most of the ones that are part of Un*x to
>read e-mail. I had been using pine for the group, now I have OE 6.0 which is
>the one I would rather have.
>
>As far as the info to have on the cygwin website, how about the stuff that I
>had attached in my message, telling people how to get to the newsgroup,
>Christopher?
>--
>Sincerely,
>Daniel Adams - dpa3@dana.ucc.nau.edu
>http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3
>
>  1 Peter 4:10 (NIV)-  Each one should use whatever gift he has received to
>serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
>
>"Per Abrahamsen" <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> wrote in message
>news:rj3d00w7ln.fsf@ssv2.dina.kvl.dk...
>> Christopher Faylor <cgf@redhat.com> writes:
>>
>> > If you feel this strongly about a news server then I see no reason why
>> > you shouldn't set one up.  I'll be happy to advertise the service on
>> > the cygwin web site.
>>
>> There is a nntp gateway of this group at
>>
>>       < nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin >
>>
>> > I have several other great ideas which I'll be happy to share with you
>> > once you've gotten your service set up.
>>
>>       < nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.discuss >
>>
>> is the place to discuss the gmane groups.
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Why not a news server?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 08:57:24PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>Please go to http://cygwin.com/ and post a news item.

Hmm.  I guess the excitement about this doesn't extend to actually doing
this very minor thing.

cgf

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Re: Why not a news server?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 06:29:45PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 08:57:24PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>Please go to http://cygwin.com/ and post a news item.
>
>Hmm.  I guess the excitement about this doesn't extend to actually doing
>this very minor thing.

Still waiting...

cgf

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Re: Why not a news server?

[Daniel Adams]

Uhh, news://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin.

This server has been setup for several weeks now.

--
Sincerely,
Daniel Adams - dpa3@dana.ucc.nau.edu
http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3

  1 Peter 4:10 (NIV)-  Each one should use whatever gift he has received to
serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.

"Christopher Faylor" <cgf@redhat.com> wrote in message
news:20020302222939.GA27811@redhat.com...
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 06:29:45PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >On Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 08:57:24PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >>Please go to http://cygwin.com/ and post a news item.
> >
> >Hmm.  I guess the excitement about this doesn't extend to actually doing
> >this very minor thing.
>
> Still waiting...
>
> cgf
>
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Re: Why not a news server?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 03:48:29PM -0700, Daniel Adams wrote:
>Uhh, news://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin.
>
>This server has been setup for several weeks now.

Uhhhhh.  Try reading my message again.

cgf

>--
>Sincerely,
>Daniel Adams - dpa3@dana.ucc.nau.edu
>http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3
>
>  1 Peter 4:10 (NIV)-  Each one should use whatever gift he has received to
>serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
>
>"Christopher Faylor" <cgf@redhat.com> wrote in message
>news:20020302222939.GA27811@redhat.com...
>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 06:29:45PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> >On Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 08:57:24PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> >>Please go to http://cygwin.com/ and post a news item.
>> >
>> >Hmm.  I guess the excitement about this doesn't extend to actually doing
>> >this very minor thing.
>>
>> Still waiting...

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Re: Why not a news server?

[Charles Wilson]

"Still waiting" --- for a news item to be posted on the main cygwin.org 
homepage announcing the nntp group availability.  Sure, posting that 
"the server has been setup for several weeks now" in the mailing list is 
good and all -- but...

go here:
http://www.cygwin.com/post-article.html
and post an announcement for your new service.  (Yes, there is a link on 
the main cygwin home page that says "post new news" and leads to the URL 
supplied above).

I'm not gonna do it, because I didn't set it up, and don't really know 
anything about it.  I'm sure cgf feels the same way.

He asked that the person who established this service please post an 
announcement on the web page...but he's "still waiting".  Several weeks 
later.

--Chuck

Daniel Adams wrote:

> Uhh, news://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin.
> 
> This server has been setup for several weeks now.
> 
> --
> Sincerely,
> Daniel Adams - dpa3@dana.ucc.nau.edu
> http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3
> 
>   1 Peter 4:10 (NIV)-  Each one should use whatever gift he has received to
> serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
> 
> "Christopher Faylor" <cgf@redhat.com> wrote in message
> news:20020302222939.GA27811@redhat.com...
> 
>>On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 06:29:45PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 08:57:24PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>>
>>>>Please go to http://cygwin.com/ and post a news item.
>>>>
>>>Hmm.  I guess the excitement about this doesn't extend to actually doing
>>>this very minor thing.
>>>
>>Still waiting...
>>
>>cgf
>>
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Why not a news server?

[Daniel Adams]

I am not the person who made the request and had the server set up. I am
simply just an advocate of the whold idea of a news server.

    Would the person who did set it up, please step forward and post to the
cygwin.com website.

--
Sincerely,
Daniel Adams - dpa3@dana.ucc.nau.edu
http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3

  1 Peter 4:10 (NIV)-  Each one should use whatever gift he has received to
serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.


"Charles Wilson" <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:3C815B97.80507@ece.gatech.edu...
> "Still waiting" --- for a news item to be posted on the main cygwin.org
> homepage announcing the nntp group availability.  Sure, posting that
> "the server has been setup for several weeks now" in the mailing list is
> good and all -- but...
>
> go here:
> http://www.cygwin.com/post-article.html
> and post an announcement for your new service.  (Yes, there is a link on
> the main cygwin home page that says "post new news" and leads to the URL
> supplied above).
>
> I'm not gonna do it, because I didn't set it up, and don't really know
> anything about it.  I'm sure cgf feels the same way.
>
> He asked that the person who established this service please post an
> announcement on the web page...but he's "still waiting".  Several weeks
> later.
>
> --Chuck
>
> Daniel Adams wrote:
>
> > Uhh, news://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin.
> >
> > This server has been setup for several weeks now.
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> > Daniel Adams - dpa3@dana.ucc.nau.edu
> > http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3
> >
> >   1 Peter 4:10 (NIV)-  Each one should use whatever gift he has received
to
> > serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
> >
> > "Christopher Faylor" <cgf@redhat.com> wrote in message
> > news:20020302222939.GA27811@redhat.com...
> >
> >>On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 06:29:45PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 08:57:24PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Please go to http://cygwin.com/ and post a news item.
> >>>>
> >>>Hmm.  I guess the excitement about this doesn't extend to actually
doing
> >>>this very minor thing.
> >>>
> >>Still waiting...
> >>
> >>cgf
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Why not a news server?

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Charles Wilson <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu> writes:

> He asked that the person who established this service please post an
> announcement on the web page...but he's "still waiting".  Several
> weeks later.

Well, er, I guess I'm the one who established this service, and you
can read more about it on <URL: http://gmane.org/>.  I don't follow
this mailing list in particular, so if someone wants to announce
something for this mailing list, I'm probably not the person to do
that.

Randall R Schulz <rrschulz@cris.com> writes:
> Well, this news server certainly does not address the issue of archive
> searching, as it goes back only a few days (as of this writing, the
> earliest posting still there is from Feb. 06, 2002). 

Indeed -- that's when the test period was over and gmane.org was
started properly.  As for searching, that's something that will be
added at a later date, when there's something to search there.
(Probably by implementing the NNTP searching extensions, or perhaps by
slapping a web search interface on top of the news spool.  We'll see.) 

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen



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Re: Why not a news server?

[Daniel Adams]

I went ahead and posted it to the cygwin.com thing.

--
Sincerely,
Daniel Adams - dpa3@dana.ucc.nau.edu
http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~dpa3

  1 Peter 4:10 (NIV)-  Each one should use whatever gift he has received to
serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.

"Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen" <larsi@gnus.org> wrote in message
news:m31yf236bv.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org...
> Charles Wilson <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu> writes:
>
> > He asked that the person who established this service please post an
> > announcement on the web page...but he's "still waiting".  Several
> > weeks later.
>
> Well, er, I guess I'm the one who established this service, and you
> can read more about it on <URL: http://gmane.org/>.  I don't follow
> this mailing list in particular, so if someone wants to announce
> something for this mailing list, I'm probably not the person to do
> that.
>
> Randall R Schulz <rrschulz@cris.com> writes:
> > Well, this news server certainly does not address the issue of archive
> > searching, as it goes back only a few days (as of this writing, the
> > earliest posting still there is from Feb. 06, 2002).
>
> Indeed -- that's when the test period was over and gmane.org was
> started properly.  As for searching, that's something that will be
> added at a later date, when there's something to search there.
> (Probably by implementing the NNTP searching extensions, or perhaps by
> slapping a web search interface on top of the news spool.  We'll see.)
>
> --
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
>    larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
>
>
>
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Re: Why not a news server?

[Charles Wilson]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Charles Wilson <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu> writes:
> 
> 
>>He asked that the person who established this service please post an
>>announcement on the web page...but he's "still waiting".  Several
>>weeks later.
>>
> 
> Well, er, I guess I'm the one who established this service, and you
> can read more about it on <URL: http://gmane.org/>.  I don't follow
> this mailing list in particular, so if someone wants to announce
> something for this mailing list, I'm probably not the person to do
> that.


Sigh.

Lars, read carefully:

Please announce the existence of your news gateway by posting a news 
item on the cgywin WEB PAGE.  Where people who are NOT subscribed to the 
mailing list will see it (that's the whole point of your nntp service, 
right?)

Posting the announcement here on the mailing list will do very little 
good -- we already use the mailing list, very few of us are going to 
switch.  Besides, we all already know it exists, thanks to this 
interminable thread.

To post an announcment on the CYGWIN WEB PAGE, go to THIS link (which 
you would have found on the main cygwin home page had you looked for it):

http://www.cygwin.com/post-article.html

*I* will not do this -- it's not my place to announce your contribution. 
  Chris obviously felt the same way -- which is why he asked YOU to post 
an announcement ON THE CYGWIN WEB PAGE several weeks ago.

But you did not.  Why?  And why are you being stubborn now?

--Chuck


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Re: Why not a news server?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Charles Wilson wrote:

> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> 
>> Charles Wilson <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu> writes:
>>
>>
>>> He asked that the person who established this service please post an
>>> announcement on the web page...but he's "still waiting".  Several
>>> weeks later.
>>>
>>
>> Well, er, I guess I'm the one who established this service, and you
>> can read more about it on <URL: http://gmane.org/>.  I don't follow
>> this mailing list in particular, so if someone wants to announce
>> something for this mailing list, I'm probably not the person to do
>> that.
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> Lars, read carefully:
> 
> Please announce the existence of your news gateway by posting a news 
> item on the cgywin WEB PAGE.  Where people who are NOT subscribed to the 
> mailing list will see it (that's the whole point of your nntp service, 
> right?)
> 
> Posting the announcement here on the mailing list will do very little 
> good -- we already use the mailing list, very few of us are going to 
> switch.  Besides, we all already know it exists, thanks to this 
> interminable thread.
> 
> To post an announcment on the CYGWIN WEB PAGE, go to THIS link (which 
> you would have found on the main cygwin home page had you looked for it):
> 
> http://www.cygwin.com/post-article.html
> 
> *I* will not do this -- it's not my place to announce your contribution. 
>  Chris obviously felt the same way -- which is why he asked YOU to post 
> an announcement ON THE CYGWIN WEB PAGE several weeks ago.
> 
> But you did not.  Why?  And why are you being stubborn now?

Talk about being stubborn! The guy said he didn't want to do it. He doesn't care about it.
If you care then you do OK?




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Re: Why not a news server?

[Charles Wilson]

Andrew, Lars said

"I don't follow this mailing list in particular, so if someone wants to 
announce something ******for this mailing list******, I'm probably not 
the person to do that." [emphasis added]

Fair enough.  BUT, posting an announcemnt on the WEBPAGE is NOT "for 
this mailing list".  It's for his damn nntp gateway.  Perhaps using the 
mailing list to relay a request to Lars was not appropriate -- since he 
doesn't follow the list.  But he sure followed it enough to realize that 
there was a gap which he could fill -- when he created the service three 
weeks ago (which was when cgf asked him to post an announcement).  He 
was proactive enough to set up the service.  But not to post the 
announcement using the facilities provided and referenced by the project 
administrator (cgf).  Go figure.

Supposedly, Lars set this nntp thing up as a service to the cygwin 
community. Hmmm,  let's think,  how would you tell the community 
something about a new "service"...well, you'd either

   a) post an announcement on the mailing list,
     --- but, this nntp service is specifically for those people who 
don't like using mailing lists to communicate.  So, that's not a good idea.

   b) put an announcement on the official cygwin web page.

B) it what Chris asked for.  B) is what I've been asking for.  B) is 
what Lars, as the contributor of a new service for the cygwin community, 
should have done.  And continually refused to do -- either 
misunderstanding what was being requested, or too lazy ("I've set it up 
-- that's enough", or whatever.

Sure, I could announce his service.  I could also announce the 
availability of a new ispell port for cygwin on the german ftp mirror. 
I could announce that there was a new cygwin port of kde-2.2 at 
kde-cygwin, or of gtk+1.3.6 at gtk.org.

But it's not my job -- and more importantly, it isn't my right!  If *I* 
posted the announcement, then *my* name would go next to the 
announcement text.  This poses two problems, one moral, and one practical:

   a) the moral problem:  it would imply that I was responsible for 
someone else's contribution.  Lars did the job, Lars should get the 
credit.  (If only he'd follow thru, and post the damn announcement...)
   b) the practical problem:  I'd get the email when the service broke. 
I'd have to continually redirect queries to Lars -- in perpetuity, until 
cgf manually changed the announcement text to refer to Lars instead of me.

If you want to characterize Lars' statement that he didn't want to post 
an announcement on the *mailing list*, plus my insistence that he post 
an announcement on the *web page*, and my refusal to implicitly take 
credit for someone else's work  as "stubbornness" on my part, you're 
welcome to do so.

--Chuck


Andrew DeFaria wrote:

> Charles Wilson wrote:
> 
>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Wilson <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> He asked that the person who established this service please post an
>>>> announcement on the web page...but he's "still waiting".  Several
>>>> weeks later.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, er, I guess I'm the one who established this service, and you
>>> can read more about it on <URL: http://gmane.org/>.  I don't follow
>>> this mailing list in particular, so if someone wants to announce
>>> something for this mailing list, I'm probably not the person to do
>>> that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sigh.
>>
>> Lars, read carefully:
>>
>> Please announce the existence of your news gateway by posting a news 
>> item on the cgywin WEB PAGE.  Where people who are NOT subscribed to 
>> the mailing list will see it (that's the whole point of your nntp 
>> service, right?)
>>
>> Posting the announcement here on the mailing list will do very little 
>> good -- we already use the mailing list, very few of us are going to 
>> switch.  Besides, we all already know it exists, thanks to this 
>> interminable thread.
>>
>> To post an announcment on the CYGWIN WEB PAGE, go to THIS link (which 
>> you would have found on the main cygwin home page had you looked for it):
>>
>> http://www.cygwin.com/post-article.html
>>
>> *I* will not do this -- it's not my place to announce your 
>> contribution.  Chris obviously felt the same way -- which is why he 
>> asked YOU to post an announcement ON THE CYGWIN WEB PAGE several weeks 
>> ago.
>>
>> But you did not.  Why?  And why are you being stubborn now?
> 
> 
> Talk about being stubborn! The guy said he didn't want to do it. He 
> doesn't care about it.
> If you care then you do OK?
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Why not a news server?

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Charles Wilson <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu> writes:

> Supposedly, Lars set this nntp thing up as a service to the cygwin
> community.

Er, no.

Read <URL: http://gmane.org/>.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen



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Re: Why not a news server?

[Charles Wilson]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Charles Wilson <cwilson@ece.gatech.edu> writes:
> 
> 
>>Supposedly, Lars set this nntp thing up as a service to the cygwin
>>community.
>>
> 
> Er, no.
> 
> Read <URL: http://gmane.org/>.


Okay, so gmane is a more comprehensive effort than a specific project to 
support an nntp gateway for cygwin's mailing lists.  But *somebody* had 
to set up the mapping

cygwin@cygwin.com       <--> gmane.os.cygwin
cygwin-xfree@cygwin.com <--> gmane.os.cygwin.xfree

gmane doesn't mirror EVERY mailing list out there.  The person who set 
up the mapping, whoever it was, did so for a reason.  Somebody else 
(you, Lars?) approved the request to do so.  Whatever -- I don't really 
care.  I dislike the news interface.  Somebody else out there likes it 
enough to do whatever was necessary to create the *cygwin* gateway using 
the gmane service.

That person, whoever it was, should have announced that they had done 
so, using the references provided.  *I* had nothing to do with it.  *I* 
don't even use it.  So *I* shouldn't implicitly take credit for it by 
announcing it.

Geez, I can't believe I'm still writing about something *I* don't care 
about...

--Chuck


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Re: Why not a news server?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Charles Wilson wrote:

 
> Geez, I can't believe I'm still writing about something *I* don't care 
> about...

Neither can we! :-)




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Re: Why not a news server?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 06:37:46PM -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>Charles Wilson wrote:
>>Geez, I can't believe I'm still writing about something *I* don't care
>>about...
>
>Neither can we! :-)

Wow.  I've posted, three suggestions to do this with nary a peep.  Then,
suddenly, this tempest.

Apparently Chuck is the only one with sufficiently advanced reading
skills to comprehend the vast intellectual challenge that I set before
people.  To wit:

"Please go to the http://cygwin.com/ and post a news item."

Apparently, without knowing it, I was doing something equivalent to
asking people to perfect cold fusion.

Thanks Chuck for helping to see this through to an actual conclusion
after two weeks.  Your acumen in this matter is appreciated, as always.

cgf
--
Please do not send me personal email with cygwin questions.
Use the resources at http://cygwin.com/ .

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Re: Why not a news server?

[Randall R Schulz]

Chris,

I was about to ask this:

-==-
Not that I have anything to announce, but just how does one "post a news 
item" on the Cygwin Web site? I went to the home page and the news page 
(<http://cygwin.com/news.html>), but saw nothing that permits one to submit 
a new news item.
-==-

But finally found the link <http://www.cygwin.com/post-article.html>.

Perhaps you don't want to encourage a flood of news postings, but the link 
is not the sort of thing to jump out at one.

Perhaps Daniel Adams also overlooked this link.

Randall Schulz
Mountain View, CA USA


At 14:29 2002-03-02, you wrote:
>On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 06:29:45PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >On Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 08:57:24PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >>Please go to http://cygwin.com/ and post a news item.
> >
> >Hmm.  I guess the excitement about this doesn't extend to actually doing
> >this very minor thing.
>
>Still waiting...
>
>cgf


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Re: Why not a news server?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Per Abrahamsen wrote:

> Christopher Faylor <cgf@redhat.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>If you feel this strongly about a news server then I see no reason why
>>you shouldn't set one up.  I'll be happy to advertise the service on
>>the cygwin web site.
>>
> 
> There is a nntp gateway of this group at 
> 
>       < nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin >
> 
>>I have several other great ideas which I'll be happy to share with you
>>once you've gotten your service set up.
>>
> 
>       < nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.discuss >
> 
> is the place to discuss the gmane groups.


Ah, much better! One word though: nntp: is not a valid protocol! It's 
news://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin not 
nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin.




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Re: Why not a news server?

[Randall R Schulz]

Hi,

Well, this news server certainly does not address the issue of archive 
searching, as it goes back only a few days (as of this writing, the 
earliest posting still there is from Feb. 06, 2002). My own local archive 
of cygwin@cygwin.com goes back to Jan 01, 2001. Using Eudora I can do 
multi-criteria search with AND or OR combination, optionally restricted to 
particular headers or the body and if necessary I can use regular 
expressions as the search criteria.

I really don't see how that can be improved upon by any on-line archive.

My year and ~1.5 months of Cygwin archives requires 48 megabytes. That 
seems pretty reasonable to me, considering the cheapness of mass storage.

Note, too, that given the nature of the mailbox files' contents (all text, 
usually 7-bit at that), even Windows compression is quite effective, 
reducing the file's physical size to between .6 and .65 of that of the 
uncompressed original.

Here's what I do: When the size of a given list's primary mailbox becomes 
uncomfortably large, I split off an archive mailbox file from the main 
mailbox, give it a date-stamped alternative name and apply Windows file 
compression. All together, this has saved me a little over 200 megabytes of 
disk space (!).

Randall Schulz
Mountain View, CA USA


At 05:39 2002-02-17, you wrote:
>Christopher Faylor <cgf@redhat.com> writes:
>
> > If you feel this strongly about a news server then I see no reason why
> > you shouldn't set one up.  I'll be happy to advertise the service on
> > the cygwin web site.
>
>There is a nntp gateway of this group at
>
>       < nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.os.cygwin >
>
> > I have several other great ideas which I'll be happy to share with you
> > once you've gotten your service set up.
>
>       < nntp://quimby.gnus.org/gmane.discuss >
>
>is the place to discuss the gmane groups.


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Re: Why not a news server?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Randall R Schulz wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Well, this news server certainly does not address the issue of archive 
> searching, as it goes back only a few days (as of this writing, the 
> earliest posting still there is from Feb. 06, 2002). 


For me it's just perfect! YMMV.




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