Re: Big Brother is Real

Re: Big Brother is Real

[Fred Ma]

> OH. MY. GOD.
>
> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>
> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>
>
> Randall Schulz
>

Any comments on whether a firewall helps?  I don't use office, just
Win2K (and even then, mostly on cygwin).  I recall a time Kerio
and ZoneAlarm kept asking for server rights for some Win2K
service programs.  Internet access didn't work without granting
these rights.  So I granted them.

Fred

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1125 Colonel By Drive, Ottawa, Ontario
Canada, K1S 5B6

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 04:49:43PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 11:47:39PM +0200, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >I got a hint lately about stuff working different on 64bit.  If a 32 bit
> >application is called from a 64 bit application the stack is 0xc000
> >lower than if the same 32 bit application is called by another 32 bit
> >application.  E. g., the first bash is spawned from 64 bit cmd.exe, its
> >stack is shifted 0xc000.  A CreateProcess call from fork will now create
> >a child with the stack at another location which breaks the longjmp.
> 
> That shouldn't be a problem.  That's no different than if fork() is
> called from another thread.  The stack should be relocated in the forkee
> automatically unless the memory for the stack is being used for something
> else.

Hmm, this was apparently the reason it didn't work.  The guy tracked it
down to the longjmp which SEGV'd since it tried to return to an invalid
memory region.  But anyway, fork is your child.

Corinna

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 11:47:39PM +0200, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
>On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 04:37:26PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I think the only problem is that Cygwin probably just needs to be debugged
>> to see what's going on.  If someone wants to send me a nice 64 bit system
>> running WinXP 64 (or whatever it's called), I'll see what I can do.
>
>Coincidentally I was going to suggest something similar...
>
>I got a hint lately about stuff working different on 64bit.  If a 32 bit
>application is called from a 64 bit application the stack is 0xc000
>lower than if the same 32 bit application is called by another 32 bit
>application.  E. g., the first bash is spawned from 64 bit cmd.exe, its
>stack is shifted 0xc000.  A CreateProcess call from fork will now create
>a child with the stack at another location which breaks the longjmp.

That shouldn't be a problem.  That's no different than if fork() is
called from another thread.  The stack should be relocated in the forkee
automatically unless the memory for the stack is being used for something
else.

cgf

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 04:37:26PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> I think the only problem is that Cygwin probably just needs to be debugged
> to see what's going on.  If someone wants to send me a nice 64 bit system
> running WinXP 64 (or whatever it's called), I'll see what I can do.

Coincidentally I was going to suggest something similar...

I got a hint lately about stuff working different on 64bit.  If a 32 bit
application is called from a 64 bit application the stack is 0xc000
lower than if the same 32 bit application is called by another 32 bit
application.  E. g., the first bash is spawned from 64 bit cmd.exe, its
stack is shifted 0xc000.  A CreateProcess call from fork will now create
a child with the stack at another location which breaks the longjmp.

Corinna

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 10:37:19AM -0800, Stephan Mueller wrote:
>Can someone elaborate on exactly which APIs have changed incompatibly
>(in 64-bit Windows)?
>
>I'm only mildly familiar with the 64-bit story, but my understanding is
>that the the 64-bit APIs are basically the same as 32-bit (with the
>natural widening of types) but given that the 64-bit API is 'new' in
>that there's no legacy (shipped, binary) code base to support, this is
>probably the best time to make API changes (in 64-bit) that repair bad
>design decisions and bad interface bugs and so made earlier (in 32-bit
>API, or maybe even 16-bit).
>
>Regardless, how does this affect Cygwin at all?  The 32-bit subsystem on
>64-bit Windows OSes should run 32-bit apps with no semantic changes --
>that's its job, and I would be surprised if the behaviour of any 32-bit
>APIs was gratuitously different (although it's possible there are bugs
>-- worth reporting if that's the case).
>
>If you're trying to compile cygwin itself for 64-bit, well, you may need
>to make some cygwin source changes with #ifdefs, yes -- is that the
>objection here?

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the iffy decisions that cygwin makes
just break on the 64-bit Windows.  It's not Microsoft's fault if they
change an undocumented behavior.  Cygwin relies on a few undocumented-but-consistent
behaviors to do some of its magic.

I think the only problem is that Cygwin probably just needs to be debugged
to see what's going on.  If someone wants to send me a nice 64 bit system
running WinXP 64 (or whatever it's called), I'll see what I can do.

cgf

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 07:28:14AM -0800, Tim Prince wrote:
>Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, 

Wow.  I had no idea I was so powerful.  I think I need a raise.

cgf

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RE: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

Note that the below was a general statement about API changes, not even
referring to XP64 specifically.  I do not use the newest Windows, and
don't have enough expertise to reason about the specific API changes.
These changes do happen (otherwise Cygwin wouldn't have to be "ported" to
the newer versions of Windows), but, FWIW, I highly doubt that they are
introduced to deliberately stifle *Cygwin* development.  Just wanted to
make this clear.
	Igor

On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Stephan Mueller wrote:

> Can someone elaborate on exactly which APIs have changed incompatibly
> (in 64-bit Windows)?
>
> I'm only mildly familiar with the 64-bit story, but my understanding is
> that the the 64-bit APIs are basically the same as 32-bit (with the
> natural widening of types) but given that the 64-bit API is 'new' in
> that there's no legacy (shipped, binary) code base to support, this is
> probably the best time to make API changes (in 64-bit) that repair bad
> design decisions and bad interface bugs and so made earlier (in 32-bit
> API, or maybe even 16-bit).
>
> Regardless, how does this affect Cygwin at all?  The 32-bit subsystem on
> 64-bit Windows OSes should run 32-bit apps with no semantic changes --
> that's its job, and I would be surprised if the behaviour of any 32-bit
> APIs was gratuitously different (although it's possible there are bugs
> -- worth reporting if that's the case).
>
> If you're trying to compile cygwin itself for 64-bit, well, you may need
> to make some cygwin source changes with #ifdefs, yes -- is that the
> objection here?
>
> stephan();
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf
> Of Igor Pechtchanski
> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 8:31 AM
> To: Andrew DeFaria
> Cc: cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real
>
> On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>
> > Tim Prince wrote:
> >
> > > Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows
> > > XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX
> > > than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand
> > > how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since
> > > they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget
> > > them.
> >
> > How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin?
> > I'm curious because as you even admit "many customers depend on
> > cygwin" so it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop
> > their customers from running Cygwin.
>
> Microsoft doesn't "stop their customers from running Cygwin", it
> introduces API changes that are incompatible with previous versions, and
> thus cause programs like Cygwin to not run.  Whether this is deliberate
> or accidental remains debatable.
>         Igor

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  -- Leto II


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RE: Big Brother is Real

[Stephan Mueller]

Can someone elaborate on exactly which APIs have changed incompatibly
(in 64-bit Windows)?

I'm only mildly familiar with the 64-bit story, but my understanding is
that the the 64-bit APIs are basically the same as 32-bit (with the
natural widening of types) but given that the 64-bit API is 'new' in
that there's no legacy (shipped, binary) code base to support, this is
probably the best time to make API changes (in 64-bit) that repair bad
design decisions and bad interface bugs and so made earlier (in 32-bit
API, or maybe even 16-bit).

Regardless, how does this affect Cygwin at all?  The 32-bit subsystem on
64-bit Windows OSes should run 32-bit apps with no semantic changes --
that's its job, and I would be surprised if the behaviour of any 32-bit
APIs was gratuitously different (although it's possible there are bugs
-- worth reporting if that's the case).

If you're trying to compile cygwin itself for 64-bit, well, you may need
to make some cygwin source changes with #ifdefs, yes -- is that the
objection here?

stephan();

-----Original Message-----
From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf
Of Igor Pechtchanski
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 8:31 AM
To: Andrew DeFaria
Cc: cygwin@cygwin.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real

On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

> Tim Prince wrote:
>
> > Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows

> > XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX

> > than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand

> > how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since

> > they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget

> > them.
>
> How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? 
> I'm curious because as you even admit "many customers depend on 
> cygwin" so it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop 
> their customers from running Cygwin.

Microsoft doesn't "stop their customers from running Cygwin", it
introduces API changes that are incompatible with previous versions, and
thus cause programs like Cygwin to not run.  Whether this is deliberate
or accidental remains debatable.
	Igor

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

> Tim Prince wrote:
>
> > Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows
> > XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX
> > than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand
> > how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since
> > they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them.
>
> How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm
> curious because as you even admit "many customers depend on cygwin" so
> it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers
> from running Cygwin.

Microsoft doesn't "stop their customers from running Cygwin", it
introduces API changes that are incompatible with previous versions, and
thus cause programs like Cygwin to not run.  Whether this is deliberate or
accidental remains debatable.
	Igor
-- 
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Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately
explained by stupidity.


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Andrew DeFaria]

Tim Prince wrote:

> Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows 
> XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX 
> than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand 
> how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since 
> they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them.

How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm 
curious because as you even admit "many customers depend on cygwin" so 
it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers 
from running Cygwin.



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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Andrew DeFaria]

Steve Coleman wrote:

> Randall R Schulz wrote:
>
>> I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. 
>> Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a 
>> right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, 
>> the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say 
>> no" to Microsoft.
>
> And in some cases you can't say "no"! 

You can always say no. You may or may not always wish to deal with the 
consequences of saying no. If you don't want to deal with the 
consequences of saying no then you have actively choosen to say yes.

> A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I 
> first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on 
> a Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even 
> close to resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a 
> daily basis. At the time I was a representative to the X/Open 
> organization and was heavily involved in the system benchmarking and 
> conformance testing to ensure that all equipment supplied on several 
> large contracts adhered to the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ 
> "legal suites" showed up in force and muscled there way in through 
> legal threats. Can you imagine that? NASA, as big of a government 
> organization as it is, being muscled and pushed around by Microsloths 
> lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open complient operating system? 

No I can't imagine that! Somebody, somewhere decided to say yes instead 
of no. That is not being pushed to say yes.

> Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come close to being X/Open 
> complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in its infant stages of 
> development. The short story is that M$ intimidated NASA into creating 
> a contract just for M$ to sell their stuff even though they were not 
> compliant with any of the benchmark tests or feature lists required in 
> order to compete.  If you can't compete technically (or just need some 
> spare cash on hand), just threaten to sue.
>
> Thank you team Cygwin! ;-)
>
> (These are my own thoughts and opinions and in no way reflect my 
> current or past employers positions in any way)
>
> 8*}




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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Tim,

At 07:28 2003-04-03, you wrote:
>...
>
>Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows 
>XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX 
>than let their customers run cygwin.  It may be they don't understand 
>how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since 
>they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them.


"We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company."
  -- Lily Tomlin


>--
>Tim Prince


Randall Schulz 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Tim Prince]

On Thursday 03 April 2003 06:54, Steve Coleman wrote:
> Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it.
> > Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a
> > right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note,
> > the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say
> > no" to Microsoft.
>
> And in some cases you can't say "no"!
>
> A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I
> first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on a
> Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even close to
> resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a daily basis.
> At the time I was a representative to the X/Open organization and was
> heavily involved in the system benchmarking and conformance testing to
> ensure that all equipment supplied on several large contracts adhered to
> the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ "legal suites" showed up in
> force and muscled there way in through legal threats. Can you imagine
> that? NASA, as big of a government organization as it is, being muscled
> and pushed around by Microsloths lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open
> complient operating system? Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come
> close to being X/Open complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in
> its infant stages of development. 
Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, 
but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their 
customers run cygwin.  It may be they don't understand how many customers 
depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those 
customers, just collect the fees and forget them.

-- 
Tim Prince

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Steve Coleman]

Randall R Schulz wrote:

> I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. 
> Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a 
> right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, 
> the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say 
> no" to Microsoft.

And in some cases you can't say "no"!

A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I 
first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on a 
Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even close to 
resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a daily basis. 
At the time I was a representative to the X/Open organization and was 
heavily involved in the system benchmarking and conformance testing to 
ensure that all equipment supplied on several large contracts adhered to 
the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ "legal suites" showed up in 
force and muscled there way in through legal threats. Can you imagine 
that? NASA, as big of a government organization as it is, being muscled 
and pushed around by Microsloths lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open 
complient operating system? Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come 
close to being X/Open complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in 
its infant stages of development. The short story is that M$ intimidated 
NASA into creating a contract just for M$ to sell their stuff even 
though they were not compliant with any of the benchmark tests or 
feature lists required in order to compete.  If you can't compete 
technically (or just need some spare cash on hand), just threaten to sue.

Thank you team Cygwin! ;-)

(These are my own thoughts and opinions and in no way reflect my current 
or past employers positions in any way)

8*}





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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Christopher Faylor wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:14:23AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >
> >Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...
>
> Ok, Igor. Could you gold star "Randy" for, um, er, conspicuous service
> on behalf of the cygwin community?
>
> While we're at it, give yourself one for same.  If you don't mind...
> cgf

Wow, you're generous today.  But then, who am I to argue... :-)
Two gold stars coming up...
	Igor
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  -- Leto II


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:14:23AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>
>Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...

Ok, Igor. Could you gold star "Randy" for, um, er, conspicuous service
on behalf of the cygwin community?

While we're at it, give yourself one for same.  If you don't mind...

cgf

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RE: Big Brother is Real

[Williams, Gerald S (Jerry)]

Randall R Schulz wrote:
> Obligatory disclaimer: I ANAL. You?

You'd better make that IANASCJ

gsw

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 10:38:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> At 10:10 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >A lisp would be already a good start.  Just don't write programs with it...
> 
> Hey! Lisp is my all-time favorite language!

Yeth, thath the thame with all Igorth...

Corinna

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RE: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Günter,

That first remark of mine was meant facetiously, of course. SP3 does 
more than just open a privacy hole (I assume).

My guess (nope, I haven't done the research--I had my child-like 
naivete destroyed by Igor's URL just today!) is that it's during system 
update that you're going to be probed, but that's just a hunch.

It seems likely that were you to successfully configure a firewall to 
prevent this system probing, you'd also prevent other more desirable 
activity or would simply cause Windows to refuse to function.

Anyway, I shouldn't indulge in this kind of guesswork in public.

WinXPNews (<http://www.winxpnews.com/>) seems to be a good source for 
this sort of information. If (and when) I really want to know, I'll 
probably start there. And Google, of course.

Good luck. Don't let the bedbugs bite!

Randall Schulz


At 10:51 2003-04-01, günter strubinsky wrote:
>Thank you for the clarification, Randall!
>
>Fred mentioned the firewall issue. I have actually zone alarm installed and
>disallowed -permanently- the Microsoft software (with the exception as the
>usual suspects, DNS, etc.) to contact outside. Now I am not so sure anymore
>that I got hacked by anyone else but Bill. My system started to behave
>erratically when I had outlook and other ms programs running:
>
>The cpu was around 2-3% busy -never more during those phases- but everything
>stalled. (Including the task manager). I start to believe that those progs
>called home and waited for response from ms until they timed out which is
>why my system froze for about 30-60 seconds, execute a few time slices and
>then went into wait-state again. I have office xp installed...
>
>Is there any info out how the snoop works?


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RE: Big Brother is Real

[günter strubinsky]

Thank you for the clarification, Randall!

Fred mentioned the firewall issue. I have actually zone alarm installed and
disallowed -permanently- the Microsoft software (with the exception as the
usual suspects, DNS, etc.) to contact outside. Now I am not so sure anymore
that I got hacked by anyone else but Bill. My system started to behave
erratically when I had outlook and other ms programs running:

The cpu was around 2-3% busy -never more during those phases- but everything
stalled. (Including the task manager). I start to believe that those progs
called home and waited for response from ms until they timed out which is
why my system froze for about 30-60 seconds, execute a few time slices and
then went into wait-state again. I have office xp installed...

Is there any info out how the snoop works?

-----Original Message-----
From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf Of
Randall R Schulz
Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 12:07
To: cygwin@cygwin.com
Subject: RE: Big Brother is Real

Günter,

At 09:56 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do?

It opens a back door for MS snooping. DRM indeed!


>Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id
(I
>don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously
>software can also turn it on ;)

Pentium IV has dispensed with the CPU ID, too. Bad PR, I guess...


>If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is
>hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the
>last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the
tool
>can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition
>is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my
>life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones)

It's a constant battle since MS applications will continue to extend 
their file formats while giving out specs only under non-disclosure. 
This forces the Open Source community to reverse engineer the file 
formats. But they're not cryptographic after all. They're meant to be 
readily encoded and decoded by software, so it's a manageable problem.

Keep in mind that there's a world outside business, too, where things 
like TeX, PostScript and PDF are the linguas franca. Many communities 
either formally proscribe or informally eschew DOC and PPT files.


>About the license policies integrated:
>
>I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful:
>The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and
>software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is
>that it cot hacked.

I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. 
Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a 
right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, 
the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say no" 
to Microsoft.


>I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download
>that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS
>software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private
>household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for
>business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not
>possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets
>endless sources.

Some OEM versions are also excused from the call-back requirements.


>A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products.
>I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual
>Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-<char> functions are identical to the
MS
>way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no
>copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope
on
>the horizon.

Many high-end applications, even jEdit, have user-configurable keyboard 
mappings.

In other words: "Have it your way!"


>If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous
>documents, I see the sun rise!

It's still cloudy here.


>günter

Randall Schulz 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

At 10:10 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>A lisp would be already a good start.  Just don't write programs with it...

Hey! Lisp is my all-time favorite language!


>Corinna


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:40:03AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>Chris,
>
>At 09:19 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>>>At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>>>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>>>>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry.
>>>
>>>Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>>
>>Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
>>explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
>>singled out.  That should do it.
>
>OK, but I'm going to assume the operative word in this prescription for 
>penance is "try."
>
>Obligatory disclaimer: I ANAL. You?

Nanananana.  I'm not lissssttttennnning!

cgf

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
> > >
> > > You didn't read your discworld careful enough.  It's spelled
> > >
> > >   "Yeth, marthter"
> > >
> > > Corinna
> > > (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
> >
> > Corinna,
> >
> > I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.
> >       Igor (not *that* one, yet)
>
> A lisp would be already a good start.  Just don't write programs with it...
> Corinna

Well, FWIW, I don't use Emacs, I use vim.  I've written a fair share of
things in Scheme, though I prefer ML...  We'll need to work on a HUMP,
though... :-)
	Igor
-- 
				http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
      |\      _,,,---,,_		pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_		igor@watson.ibm.com
     |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'		Igor Pechtchanski
    '---''(_/--'  `-'\_) fL	a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-.  Meow!

The Lesser-Known Programming Language #12: LITHP
This otherwise unremarkable language is distinguished by the absence of an
"S" in its character set; users must substitute "TH". LITHP is said to be
useful in protheththing lithtth.


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Martin Gainty]

Linux STILL doesnt have driver support for the latest video cards..
In other words if you're working in Linux keep that VGA card !
-Martin
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thorsten Kampe" <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de>
To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real


> * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 18:24 +0100)
> > At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> >>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>>>
> >>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >>>
> >>> OH. MY. GOD.
> >>>
> >>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >>>
> >>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
> >>
> >> You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
> >> is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
> > 
> > I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
> > MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.
> 
> I *know*. This was a joohoke.
> 
> You won't move to Linux because you're a die-hard Cygwinist and cgf 
> won't allow.
> 
> 
> Thorsten
> -- 
>  Content-Type: text/explicit; charset=ISO-8859-666 (Parental Advisory)
>  Content-Transfer-Warning: message contains innuendos not suited for
>  children under the age of 18
> 
> 
> --
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Re: Big Brother is Real

[pd]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> > > >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> > > >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> > > >
> > > >Sorry.
> > >
> > > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
> >
> > You didn't read your discworld careful enough.  It's spelled
> >
> >   "Yeth, marthter"
> >
> > Corinna
> > (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
> 
> Corinna,
> 
> I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.

You can develop in lisp today.  I think Mumps is pretty much of a dead
language, though.

-pd


-- 
--------
                             Peter Davis
               Funny stuff at http://www.pfdstudio.com
                 The artwork formerly shown as prints
    List of resources for children's writers and illustrators at:
                  http://www.pfdstudio.com/cwrl.html

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RE: Big Brother is Real

[günter strubinsky]

I apologize since this questions still does not belong into this forum
(though it might impact decisions towards linux)

When I installed windows last week again (got hacked) I did not have the
option to install sp3 but immediately received sp4 and the .NET network
stuff. I am screwed now! Am I not? I assume that sp4 is a combination of all
previous SPs?

I am mad! Really mad about that. We are so used to click 'agree' without
bothering to read the fine print. :(

guenter
-----Original Message-----
From: günter strubinsky [mailto:strubinsky@acm.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 11:56
To: 'Randall R Schulz'; 'cygwin@cygwin.com'
Subject: RE: Big Brother is Real

I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do?

Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I
don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously
software can also turn it on ;)

If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is
hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the
last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool
can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition
is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my
life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones)

About the license policies integrated:

I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful:
The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and
software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is
that it cot hacked.

I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download
that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS
software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private
household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for
business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not
possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets
endless sources.

A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products.
I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual
Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-<char> functions are identical to the MS
way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no
copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on
the horizon.

If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous
documents, I see the sun rise!

guenter 

-----Original Message-----
From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf Of
Randall R Schulz
Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 10:24
To: cygwin@cygwin.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real

Thorsten,

At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> > At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>
> >> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >
> > OH. MY. GOD.
> >
> > I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >
> > I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.

I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.

You're an odd bird, Thorsten.



>Thorsten

Randall Schulz 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
> >
> > You didn't read your discworld careful enough.  It's spelled
> >
> >   "Yeth, marthter"
> >
> > Corinna
> > (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
> 
> Corinna,
> 
> I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.
> 	Igor (not *that* one, yet)

A lisp would be already a good start.  Just don't write programs with it...

Corinna

-- 
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Cygwin Developer                                mailto:cygwin@cygwin.com
Red Hat, Inc.

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RE: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Günter,

At 09:56 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do?

It opens a back door for MS snooping. DRM indeed!


>Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I
>don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously
>software can also turn it on ;)

Pentium IV has dispensed with the CPU ID, too. Bad PR, I guess...


>If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is
>hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the
>last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool
>can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition
>is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my
>life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones)

It's a constant battle since MS applications will continue to extend 
their file formats while giving out specs only under non-disclosure. 
This forces the Open Source community to reverse engineer the file 
formats. But they're not cryptographic after all. They're meant to be 
readily encoded and decoded by software, so it's a manageable problem.

Keep in mind that there's a world outside business, too, where things 
like TeX, PostScript and PDF are the linguas franca. Many communities 
either formally proscribe or informally eschew DOC and PPT files.


>About the license policies integrated:
>
>I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful:
>The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and
>software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is
>that it cot hacked.

I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. 
Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a 
right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, 
the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say no" 
to Microsoft.


>I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download
>that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS
>software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private
>household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for
>business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not
>possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets
>endless sources.

Some OEM versions are also excused from the call-back requirements.


>A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products.
>I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual
>Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-<char> functions are identical to the MS
>way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no
>copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on
>the horizon.

Many high-end applications, even jEdit, have user-configurable keyboard 
mappings.

In other words: "Have it your way!"


>If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous
>documents, I see the sun rise!

It's still cloudy here.


>günter

Randall Schulz 


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RE: Big Brother is Real

[günter strubinsky]

I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do?

Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I
don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously
software can also turn it on ;)

If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is
hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the
last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool
can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition
is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my
life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones)

About the license policies integrated:

I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful:
The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and
software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is
that it cot hacked.

I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download
that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS
software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private
household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for
business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not
possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets
endless sources.

A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products.
I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual
Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-<char> functions are identical to the MS
way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no
copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on
the horizon.

If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous
documents, I see the sun rise!

guenter 

-----Original Message-----
From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf Of
Randall R Schulz
Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 10:24
To: cygwin@cygwin.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real

Thorsten,

At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> > At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>
> >> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >
> > OH. MY. GOD.
> >
> > I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >
> > I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.

I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.

You're an odd bird, Thorsten.



>Thorsten

Randall Schulz 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Chris,

At 09:19 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >>
> >>Sorry.
> >
> >Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>
>Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
>explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
>singled out.  That should do it.

OK, but I'm going to assume the operative word in this prescription for 
penance is "try."

Obligatory disclaimer: I ANAL. You?


>cgf


RRS


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> > >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> > >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> > >
> > >Sorry.
> >
> > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>
> You didn't read your discworld careful enough.  It's spelled
>
>   "Yeth, marthter"
>
> Corinna
> (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)

Corinna,

I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.
	Igor (not *that* one, yet)
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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >
> >Sorry.
> 
> Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?

You didn't read your discworld careful enough.  It's spelled

  "Yeth, marthter"

Corinna
(which has still no Igor from Uberwald)

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Cygwin Developer                                mailto:cygwin@cygwin.com
Red Hat, Inc.

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Christopher Faylor wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003@09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >>
> >>Sorry.
> >
> >Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>
> Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
> explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
> singled out.  That should do it.
>
> cgf

Ouch!
	Igor
P.S. OTOH, he'll actuallly *deserve* that gold star then... :-)
-- 
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Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
  -- Leto II


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Randall R Schulz wrote:

> Chris,
>
> At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>
> Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...
>
> >Sorry.
> >
> >cgf
>
> Randy
> (there he is again)

Randall,

Your evil twin is wheedling favors out of cgf (or trying to).  Just
thought you should know...
	Igor
-- 
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      |\      _,,,---,,_		pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
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     |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'		Igor Pechtchanski
    '---''(_/--'  `-'\_) fL	a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-.  Meow!

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>>
>>Sorry.
>
>Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?

Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
singled out.  That should do it.

cgf

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Chris,

At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.

Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...


>Sorry.
>
>cgf


Randy
(there he is again) 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Herr Doktor Faylor,

At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 08:24:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >Thorsten,
> >
> >At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> >>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>>>
> >>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >>>
> >>> OH. MY. GOD.
> >>>
> >>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >>>
> >>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
> >>
> >>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
> >>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
> >
> >I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or
> >MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.
>
>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>
>Sorry.

Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?


>cgf


Randall Roy (heh!) Schulz 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 18:24 +0100)
> At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
>>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>>>>
>>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
>>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>>>
>>> OH. MY. GOD.
>>>
>>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>>>
>>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>>
>> You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>> is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
> 
> I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
> MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.

I *know*. This was a joohoke.

You won't move to Linux because you're a die-hard Cygwinist and cgf 
won't allow.


Thorsten
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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 08:24:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>Thorsten,
>
>At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
>>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>>>>
>>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
>>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>>>
>>> OH. MY. GOD.
>>>
>>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>>>
>>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>>
>>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
>
>I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
>MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.

I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.

Sorry.

cgf

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Thorsten,

At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> > At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>
> >> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >
> > OH. MY. GOD.
> >
> > I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >
> > I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.

I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.

You're an odd bird, Thorsten.



>Thorsten

Randall Schulz 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Martin,

I'm not sure I get your drift. I do mostly Java myself, but on every 
system except MacOS one must install the Java SDK or runtime 
separately. I doubt Sun likes that state of affairs and as a Java 
developer, neither do I, but it's how things are right now.

Microsoft dispensed with Java because it's in a legal and market battle 
with Sun. The JVM it was shipping was horridly out-of-date anyway and 
not useful for serious Java application developers.

Anyway, in this thread we're talking about licensing terms and privacy, 
not OS quality.

Randall Schulz


At 07:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:

>If XP is such a good OS why did they strip out the JVM? Some of us 
>prefer writing component based Java over heavy and slow monolithic 
>Visual Basic apps. I would purchase XP except I want to Manage my 
>registry instead of Microsoft.
>
>'Nuf Said.
>
>Martin
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Randall R Schulz" <rrschulz@cris.com>
>To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:29 AM
>Subject: Big Brother is Real
>
>
> > At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> > >On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > > > [snip]
> > > > Thorsten
> > >
> > >... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> > ><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >
> >
> > OH. MY. GOD.
> >
> > I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >
> > I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
> >
> >
> > >     Igor
> >
> >
> > Randall Schulz


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>>
>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> 
> OH. MY. GOD.
> 
> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> 
> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.

You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that 
is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.

Thorsten
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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Martin Gainty]

if XP is such a good OS why did they strip out the JVM?
Some of us prefer writing component based Java over heavy and slow
monolithic Visual Basic apps.
I would purchase XP except I want to Manage my registry instead of Microsoft
'Nuf Said
Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randall R Schulz" <rrschulz@cris.com>
To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:29 AM
Subject: Big Brother is Real


> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > > [snip]
> > > Thorsten
> >
> >... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> ><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>
>
> OH. MY. GOD.
>
> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>
> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>
> >     Igor
>
>
> Randall Schulz
>
>
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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Randall R Schulz wrote:

> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > > [snip]
> > > Thorsten
> >
> >... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> ><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>
> OH. MY. GOD.
>
> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>
> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
> >     Igor
>
> Randall Schulz

Yeah, scary, isn't it?  That's why I'm still on Win2k SP2 (crack away!).
	Igor
P.S. Read the whole document, BTW - very educational... ;-)
-- 
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Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
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Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>
> > ...
> >
> > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > [snip]
> > Thorsten
>
>... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).


OH. MY. GOD.

I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.

I guess it really is time to move to Linux.


>     Igor


Randall Schulz 


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