RE: Where is the manual to manually install cygwin in Windows 200 0

RE: Where is the manual to manually install cygwin in Windows 200 0

[Lawrence W. Smith]

> From: Christopher Faylor [mailto:cgf-cygwin@cygwin.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:10 PM
> To: cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: Re: Where is the manual to manually install cygwin in Windows
> 200 0
<snip>

> What's become a real mess is the fact that people seem to be doing an
> "ls" in their download directories and then apparently gasp with slack
> jawed horror when they see the awful mirror-based directory in their
> download area.
> However, that aside, setup's functionality has not degraded.  
> In fact it
> improves with each release, just like good software should.

Not entirely true sometimes it improves sometimes it meanders down a blind
alley or two, much like redhat your sponsor! It's free software as
a nobody user I accept its oddities and enjoy it's strengths, I'd like to
contribute some constructive feedback but clearly that's not welcome. 

> >What makes for an "easy" install on one workstation ought to imply 
> >ease of use on multiple workstations... it doesn't, quite 
> the contrary,
> 
> Why doesn't it?  Run setup on each workstation.

I don't think that's terribly scalable.

> If that's too hard, then copy the download directory around to multiple 
> workstations.

Perhaps far more useful would be provide a cmdline mode to setup.exe offering
a more flexible install method, scaleable to multiple installations and
capable of saving a specific bundle of packages as an install set and then
reapplying those with a single commandline across a list of boxes.

This is meant as entirely constructive criticism, accompanied by an example
suggestion, (not a demand or even a request), neither is it intended to solicit
the perennial "go code it yourself, we're too busy, response"

> Think of the directory as a black box.  Don't perform "ls"
> in the directory if your sensibilities are offended by the mirror subdirectory.

I don't think this is about sensibilities but about choosing a simple, clean
approach, without unnecessary complexity.

As a for instance of the consequences of your approach: How would you suggest
the mere mortals should clear out old versions of packages after say 4 or 5
revisions are sitting scattered across directory trees based on 6 different
mirrors used by a particular user over a 2 year period?   

> Or, copy the whole cygwin "root" directory around and set up the mount
> points using mount.  It's not that hard if you reorient your thinking
> to solving problems rather than complaining about problems and waiting
> for someone to solve your problems for you.

I'm not waiting for anything I already have my solution for dealing with the 
current bizarre consequences of setup.exe. It relies on simple scripting batch
scripting, 

 
> >a simple config file based approach with a script that did the
> >installing would be far, far easier. (such as make)
> 
> This is really hilarious.  When we had a version of setup that just
> did a non-gui install everyone whined about how hard it was and kept
> asking where the gui version was.  Now true nirvana would be achieved
> if only we had a script based install.
> 
> >As it is, it smacks of the "developer knows best" and "one 
> size fits all"
> >approaches so popular at M$ which is sad given cygwin's heritage!
> 
> Cygwin's heritage is free software.  Unfortunately, that 
> means that there are a lot of groaners who think things should be done
> "their way" and few people doing the actual work.  So developers work on what 
> we want to work on, but still try to produce software that we think will help.
> Oddly enough, it's the developers who advance the state of 
> the software, not the hyperbolic messages from people who have figured out 
> how to use their mail software to send opinionated email to cygwin at 
> cygwin dot com.
> So, bottom line is that we have little interest in dealing with people
> who think that they have special needs but have no special skills to
> implement their needs -- especially when they can't even really
> articulate why the available software doesn't fit their needs.
 
> That doesn't mean that there aren't all sorts of methods for 
> installing cygwin that will work just as well as setup.exe.
> It's just up to whomever to exert a little brain power to figure out how to 
> do it.  I even posted a short snippet of code that showed how to do this in 
> a script not too long ago.
 
> Regardless, It is always humorous to see people becoming 
> indignant about software that they're being given for free.
> 
> >Short-sighted, misguided install philosophy aside, thanks 
> for a wonderful
> >selection of software :)
> 
> Ignorant, inflammatory email aside, you're welcome.

I was attempting to offer a new direction that may have been overlooked
from your perspective but clearly the experiences and or suggestions of users
are of little consequence to you.

My humblest apologies for attempting to make a feeble constructive suggestion.

I'm glad such wonderful software has such an enlightened, good humoured ambassador.

Thanks again,
Lawrence

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RE: Where is the manual to manually install cygwin in Windows 200 0

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 01:18 PM 4/19/2002, Lawrence W. Smith wrote:
>I was attempting to offer a new direction that may have been overlooked
>from your perspective but clearly the experiences and or suggestions of users
>are of little consequence to you.

Although you responded specifically to Chris's message, I want to pick up
on this statement since it's important and I want to make sure the key point
here gets clarified.  The first part of this sentence gets right to the heart 
of the matter.  I think I can use it to help explain why you may have felt 
slighted (by me) for any (my) response.  This is actually not a new idea at 
all for setup.  It has been talked about before (as you can check in the email 
archives if you want) and is something for which there is already rudimentary 
support already in setup.  So perhaps the response you needed to hear is, 
"Yes, we know.  We're working on it.  It will be there someday."  I thought
I made the essentials of that statement in my original response.  Sorry for
not being more clear before.

You might want to review the prose at http://cygwin.com/lists.html and 
substitute "suggestion" for "question".  I think you find that the explanation
there is appropriate with this transmutation as well.  At least, it will help
you get a better understanding of how we prefer this list operate and will 
probably allow you to avoid getting "singed" by anyone in the future.  I 
hope that helps.


Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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RE: Where is the manual to manually install cygwin in Windows 200 0

[Lawrence W. Smith]

> From: Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) [mailto:lhall@rfk.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 8:35 PM
> To: Lawrence W. Smith; 'cygwin@cygwin.com'
> Subject: RE: Where is the manual to manually install cygwin in Windows
> 200 0
> 
> 
> At 01:18 PM 4/19/2002, Lawrence W. Smith wrote:
> >I was attempting to offer a new direction that may have been 
> overlooked from your perspective but clearly the experiences and or 
> suggestions of users are of little consequence to you.
> 
> Although you responded specifically to Chris's message, I 
> want to pick up on this statement since it's important and I want
> to make sure the key point here gets clarified.
> The first part of this sentence gets right to the heart 
> of the matter.  I think I can use it to help explain why you 
> may have felt slighted (by me) for any (my) response.
> This is actually not a new idea at all for setup.  It has been
> talked about before (as you can check in the email archives if
> you want) and is something for which there is already rudimentary 
> support already in setup.  So perhaps the response you needed 
> to hear is, 
> "Yes, we know.  We're working on it.  It will be there 
> someday."  I thought I made the essentials of that statement
> in my original response.  Sorry for not being more clear before.

Thank you for the clarification though I didn't feel at all 
slighted by anything you stated.
 
> You might want to review the prose at http://cygwin.com/lists.html
> and substitute "suggestion" for "question".
<snip>

Thank you.

Lawrence

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RE: Where is the manual to manually install Cygwin in Windows 200 0

[Lawrence W. Smith]

> From: Randall R Schulz [mailto:rrschulz@cris.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 2:34 AM
> To: George Hester; cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: Re: Where is the manual to manually install Cygwin 
> in Windiows
> 2000
> 
> 
> George,
> 
> I don't know what's not to like about Setup.exe (well, maybe 
> URL-encoded 
> mirror directory names), but you're really bucking the tide and going 
> against the grain in trying to install without Setup.exe.
> 
> You'll also be told (if this message doesn't forestall it) 
> that this list 
> doesn't cater to problems with installation or problems 
> originating in 
> installation errors for people who don't use the standard 
> installation 
> procedure based on Setup.exe.
> 

He maybe bucking the tide but IMHO he does have a point of sorts:

setup.exe has become a real mess TBH between the URL directory names,
accumulating multiple copies of data in multiple places instead of
the simple tree used before and the fallacy inherent in a GUI install.

What makes for an "easy" install on one workstation ought to imply 
ease of use on multiple workstations... it doesn't, quite the contrary,
a simple config file based approach with a script that did the
installing would be far, far easier. (such as make)

As it is, it smacks of the "developer knows best" and "one size fits all"
approaches so popular at M$ which is sad given cygwin's heritage!

Short-sighted, misguided install philosophy aside, thanks for a wonderful
selection of software :)


Lawrence

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RE: Where is the manual to manually install Cygwin in Windows 200 0

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 09:21 AM 4/19/2002, Lawrence W. Smith wrote:


> > From: Randall R Schulz [mailto:rrschulz@cris.com]
> > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 2:34 AM
> > To: George Hester; cygwin@cygwin.com
> > Subject: Re: Where is the manual to manually install Cygwin 
> > in Windiows
> > 2000
> > 
> > 
> > George,
> > 
> > I don't know what's not to like about Setup.exe (well, maybe 
> > URL-encoded 
> > mirror directory names), but you're really bucking the tide and going 
> > against the grain in trying to install without Setup.exe.
> > 
> > You'll also be told (if this message doesn't forestall it) 
> > that this list 
> > doesn't cater to problems with installation or problems 
> > originating in 
> > installation errors for people who don't use the standard 
> > installation 
> > procedure based on Setup.exe.
> > 
>
>He maybe bucking the tide but IMHO he does have a point of sorts:
>
>setup.exe has become a real mess TBH between the URL directory names,
>accumulating multiple copies of data in multiple places instead of
>the simple tree used before and the fallacy inherent in a GUI install.
>
>What makes for an "easy" install on one workstation ought to imply 
>ease of use on multiple workstations... it doesn't, quite the contrary,
>a simple config file based approach with a script that did the
>installing would be far, far easier. (such as make)
>
>As it is, it smacks of the "developer knows best" and "one size fits all"
>approaches so popular at M$ which is sad given cygwin's heritage!
>
>Short-sighted, misguided install philosophy aside, thanks for a wonderful
>selection of software :)



Thanks for your points.  These have been discussed before.  You can review
the discussion in the email list archive if you like.  Key points of the 
installer are that it must not be reliant on facilities that are part of 
the packages it's installing and that it must be GUI based for the masses.
That doesn't mean that these are exclusive requirements.  The goal is to 
make setup support a variety of needs.  But it needs to focus on a subset
of those requirements initially, due to resource constraints.  Anyone 
interested in seeing more progress in an area of their preference is welcome 
to join in the development of setup.  That's generally the best way to 
resolve issues with missing functionality.  I think we're all pretty clear 
on the varied needs for installation.  IMO, it's only worth discussing here 
if it's in the context of new development work to improve setup.  Any takers
on that note?



Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: Where is the manual to manually install cygwin in Windows 200 0

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 02:21:20PM +0100, Lawrence W. Smith wrote:
>setup.exe has become a real mess TBH between the URL directory names,
>accumulating multiple copies of data in multiple places instead of
>the simple tree used before and the fallacy inherent in a GUI install.

What's become a real mess is the fact that people seem to be doing an
"ls" in their download directories and then apparently gasp with slack
jawed horror when they see the awful mirror-based directory in their
download area.

However, that aside, setup's functionality has not degraded.  In fact it
improves with each release, just like good software should.

>What makes for an "easy" install on one workstation ought to imply 
>ease of use on multiple workstations... it doesn't, quite the contrary,

Why doesn't it?  Run setup on each workstation.  If that's too hard,
then copy the download directory around to multiple workstations.  Think
of the directory as a black box.  Don't perform "ls" in the directory if
your sensibilities are offended by the mirror subdirectory.

Or, copy the whole cygwin "root" directory around and set up the mount
points using mount.  It's not that hard if you reorient your thinking
to solving problems rather than complaining about problems and waiting
for someone to solve your problems for you.

>a simple config file based approach with a script that did the
>installing would be far, far easier. (such as make)

This is really hilarious.  When we had a version of setup that just
did a non-gui install everyone whined about how hard it was and kept
asking where the gui version was.  Now true nirvana would be achieved
if only we had a script based install.

>As it is, it smacks of the "developer knows best" and "one size fits all"
>approaches so popular at M$ which is sad given cygwin's heritage!

Cygwin's heritage is free software.  Unfortunately, that means that there
are a lot of groaners who think things should be done "their way" and
few people doing the actual work.  So developers work on what we want to
work on, but still try to produce software that we think will help.
Oddly enough, it's the developers who advance the state of the software,
not the hyperbolic messages from people who have figured out how to use
their mail software to send opinionated email to cygwin at cygwin dot com.

So, bottom line is that we have little interest in dealing with people
who think that they have special needs but have no special skills to
implement their needs -- especially when they can't even really
articulate why the available software doesn't fit their needs.

That doesn't mean that there aren't all sorts of methods for installing
cygwin that will work just as well as setup.exe.  It's just up to
whomever to exert a little brain power to figure out how to do it.  I even
posted a short snippet of code that showed how to do this in a script not
too long ago.

Regardless, It is always humorous to see people becoming indignant about
software that they're being given for free.

>Short-sighted, misguided install philosophy aside, thanks for a wonderful
>selection of software :)

Ignorant, inflammatory email aside, you're welcome.

cgf

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