Re: MinTTY

Re: MinTTY

[Angelo Graziosi]

MinTTY is an application very interesting. I want to flag some problem I
meet in using it.

I cannot insert the character : '~' (tilde, i.e. the 'home dir').
Usually with my italian keyboard I use 'ALT GR'+ì (accented 'i'): this
works with xterm, urxvt, rxvt; with Cygwin.bat I need ALT+ASCII code.

Also the ALT+ASCII code from numeric pad does not work.

I have tried all codepage (Options|Text...) but without positive
results. The best codepage I have to use is UTF-8, with which I can type
all accented character: with UTF-8 only '~' does not work.

Besides this, it would be nice if MinTTY were multi-tabs (mrxvt,
konsole) and if an image could be loaded as background (like mrxvt...)

And for installation, the method suggested by Yaakov is the best!

Cheers,
    Angelo.

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Angelo Graziosi wrote:
> I cannot insert the character : '~' (tilde, i.e. the 'home dir').
> Usually with my italian keyboard I use 'ALT GR'+ì (accented 'i'): this
> works with xterm, urxvt, rxvt; with Cygwin.bat I need ALT+ASCII code.

For characters beyond space MinTTY relies on Windows' keyboard layout 
mechanism, through the ToUnicode function. So I had a look at the 
Italian Windows keyboard layout and was quite surprised to find that it 
simply doesn't have a tilde. (They found space for two Euros though, on 
AltGr+E and AltGr+5.)

So what do you do when you need the tilde in other applications, e.g. 
for typing the bitwise-not operator in C?

X implement its own keyboard layout mechanism on top of lower-level 
Windows scancodes or virtual key codes, so apparently the Italian X 
keyboard layout does have a tilde on AltGr+ì.

I'm very reluctant to add locale-specific keyboard layout handling code 
to MinTTY and I think this issue would best be addressed by adding the 
tilde to the Windows keyboard layout, which would make it available 
across all Windows apps. Microsoft's Keyboard Layout Creator (MSKLC) 
available from http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx is a 
free (as in beer) and convenient way to do that. I've whipped up an 
"Italian - Tilde" layout and will send that in a separate mail.

(Btw, the authority on all things Windows keyboards is MSKLC author 
Michael Kaplan, who blogs about it at 
http://blogs.msdn.com/michkap/archive/tags/Keyboards/default.aspx)

> Also the ALT+ASCII code from numeric pad does not work.

Sorry about that. I couldn't be bothered to implement that DOS relic 
when I replaced PuTTY's keyboard handling, mostly because it's a 
godawful user interface, even more so on laptops. It is still a Windows 
standard though; therefore I ought to make it work. Issue 17.

> Besides this, it would be nice if MinTTY were multi-tabs (mrxvt,
> konsole) and if an image could be loaded as background (like mrxvt...)

See issue 8 for why I won't implement tabs. I'm not keen on the 
background image either, but I've entered issue 18 for it.

> And for installation, the method suggested by Yaakov is the best!

Couldn't agree more.

Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Angelo Graziosi]

Andy Koppe ha scritto:

> 
> So what do you do when you need the tilde in other applications, e.g. 
> for typing the bitwise-not operator in C?

As I have explained in my OP: AltGr+ì or ALT+126 code work just fine
with other consoles and/or applications.

For completeness, on MinTTY, AltGr+other keys work just fine. For
example, AltGr+Ú prints '[', AltGr+'+' prints ']', etc.: only AltGr+ì
does not work!

At the moment, as workaround, in MinTTY I can insert '~', using
'PgUP/PgDown' keys...


Cheers,
    Angelo.

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

> As I have explained in my OP: AltGr+ì or ALT+126 code work just fine
> with other consoles and/or applications.

If I switch my machine to the Italian keyboard, Windows applications 
such as Notepad, Word or Mozilla Thunderbird do nothing when I press 
AltGr+ì. (I can type the accented ì alright.) This also applies to the 
Windows console and the default Cygwin terminal running inside that. 
Looking at the Italian keyboard layout in MSKLC, this is because nothing 
has been assigned to AltGr+ì (i.e. the key to the left of backspace).

As I explained, the other terminals you mentioned are X applications, 
and X has its own separate keyboard layout infrastructure. MinTTY is a 
native Windows application though, hence it depends on this key being 
supported in the Windows keyboard layout.

I already accepted the Alt+NumPad issue.

Andy


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Mintty

[Riley Gleason]

Dear Whomever this may concern,
I am trying to run Cygwin but an error message pops up saying
Windows is searching for mintty
I am under the impression that it should have been automatically downloaded
when Cygwin is downloaded.
-Riley

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Re: Mintty

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Riley Gleason!

> Dear Whomever this may concern,
> I am trying to run Cygwin but an error message pops up saying
> Windows is searching for mintty
> I am under the impression that it should have been automatically downloaded
> when Cygwin is downloaded.

Blame whoever deleted the installed executable.


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With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Thursday, September 19, 2019 0:34:51

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: Mintty

[Brian Inglis]

On 2019-09-18 15:35, Andrey Repin wrote:
>> I am trying to run Cygwin but an error message pops up saying Windows is
>> searching for mintty
>> I am under the impression that it should have been automatically
>> downloaded when Cygwin is downloaded.

> Blame whoever deleted the installed executable.

Or whatever: that may have been done by an AV package or network blocker that
dislikes downloaded exes; check your AV package's log or quarantine area, or
your local IT support if at UCR.

-- 
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada

This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains
too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised.

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Latest cygwin.bat - need one

[Mike Brown]

Because I already had a cygwin.bat file, the upgrade from 1.5.x to 1.7.x did
not provide a new one, not even a cygwin.bat.sample (which would have been
nice), so that one could see if there are differences between releases.

As a result of there not being a sample, my current bat file will not
correctly start my Z-shell.  Most of the time double-clicking on the shortcut
results in the program (CMD) flashing on the screen and going away.  When it
does manage to stick, it seems to fail to start the zsh login process, i.e.,
the reading on my .z* startup files.  That results in any entered characters
being ignored, as there isn't a prompt there to accept input.

If I start cmd.exe manually, I can then start zsh and have something to work
with.  At that point, if I run cygwin.bat, (from the shell, not the shortcut)
it works.  Something in the 1.7 environment is required for rxvt to work
correctly, even though rxvt is the same version in both installations (1.5 and
1.7).  That or something changed to keep zsh from starting via the bat file
using rxvt.

If someone would be so kind as to post the contents of the default installed
cygwin.bat file, I'd appreciate it.  It is the only thing keeping me from
getting back to where I was working, before the upgrade.

Thanks.

MB
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Re: Latest cygwin.bat - need one

[Mike Brown]

On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 11:48:01PM -0600, Mike Brown wrote:
> As a result of there not being a sample, my current bat file will not
> correctly start my Z-shell.  Most of the time double-clicking on the shortcut
> results in the program (CMD) flashing on the screen and going away.  When it
> does manage to stick, it seems to fail to start the zsh login process, i.e.,
> the reading on my .z* startup files.  That results in any entered characters
> being ignored, as there isn't a prompt there to accept input.

From what I can discover, the default cygwin.bat file does not use rxvt.  It
has been a while since I first installed cygwin.

I was starting my shell with the following line:

    rxvt -e zsh --login -i

That got me the window, but not the shell.  Doing some more digging I found
the following posting (via google):

    > Does changing 'bash' to '/bin/bash' make a difference?

    Answering my own question: yes.

    There was a change in execvp()'s behaviour to no longer look up an
    executable in the current working directory, wasn't there? I can't
    find it in the ChangeLog though.

You've got to be kidding.  Why was the looking into CWD removed?  Probably
beating a dead horse.

Suggestions for document improvement:

FAQ addition to show how to modify the cygwin.bat file, or a copied file for
modification, in order to be able to run rxvt to start a better terminal.
This would solve the issue of users upgrading and their BAT file being broken.
Be sure to explain that "/bin/" is now required.

Same thing with the main documention.  There are pieces about starting the
shell, but absolutely nothing about using a better terminal (rxvt) and how
to start/configure it.

Hell, why not make the use of rxvt standard in the default BAT file.  The
rxvt terminal is many times superior to the Windblows cmd terminal.

The only thing left now is getting ssh configured correctly so that I can
remotely log into the Windblows box using ssh.  The two config scripts failed
to provide a working config.  The remote login fails at the password checking.

MB
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Re: Latest cygwin.bat - need one

[Ken Brown]

On 12/12/2011 1:31 AM, Mike Brown wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 11:48:01PM -0600, Mike Brown wrote:
> Suggestions for document improvement:
>
> FAQ addition to show how to modify the cygwin.bat file, or a copied file for
> modification, in order to be able to run rxvt to start a better terminal.
> This would solve the issue of users upgrading and their BAT file being broken.
> Be sure to explain that "/bin/" is now required.
>
> Same thing with the main documention.  There are pieces about starting the
> shell, but absolutely nothing about using a better terminal (rxvt) and how
> to start/configure it.
>
> Hell, why not make the use of rxvt standard in the default BAT file.  The
> rxvt terminal is many times superior to the Windblows cmd terminal.

There is no longer a default BAT file, and the Windows console is no 
longer the default terminal.  The default terminal is now mintty.  The 
current setup.exe creates desktop and start menu shortcuts to start it. 
This was announced in

   http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-announce/2011-11/msg00043.html

Ken

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Re: Latest cygwin.bat - need one

[Mike Brown]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:45:12AM -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
> There is no longer a default BAT file, and the Windows console is no longer 
> the default terminal.  The default terminal is now mintty.  The current 
> setup.exe creates desktop and start menu shortcuts to start it. This was 
> announced in
>
>   http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-announce/2011-11/msg00043.html

From the user guide:

    Icons

    You may choose to install shortcuts on the Desktop and/or Start Menu to
    start a bash shell. If you prefer to use a different shell or terminal
    emulator such as mintty or xterm, you can use these shortcuts as a guide
    to creating your own.


    Console Programs

    Alternatively, the optional mintty package provides a terminal emulator
    similar to such X11 programs as xterm (it is not necessary to set
    CYGWIN=tty with mintty nor is it necessary to be running /Cygwin/X).
    Using mintty.exe provides the most Unix-like environment, but expect
    some compatibility problems with Windows programs.


    Overview

    You may wish to specify settings of several important environment variables
    that affect Cygwin's operation. Some of these settings need to be in effect
    prior to launching the initial Cygwin session (before starting your bash
    shell, for instance). They should therefore be set in the Windows
    environment; all Windows environment variables are imported when Cygwin
    starts. Such settings can be placed in a .bat file. An initial file is
    named Cygwin.bat and is created in the Cygwin root directory that you
    specified during setup. Note that the "Cygwin" option of the Start Menu
    points to Cygwin.bat. Edit Cygwin.bat to your liking or create your own
    .bat files to start Cygwin processes.


From the FAQ:

    4.38.	
    Is there a better alternative to the standard console window?
	
    Yes! Use mintty instead. mintty is an optional packages in Cygwin Setup.
    mintty is a Cygwin application providing a native GUI without the need
    of X11


In other words, no where in the documentation is it stated that mintty is now
the default startup.  It all leans toward cygwin.bat as being the way things
are started.

So, just what is a user supposed to think when reading the documentation.
When I did the install, I told it not to install the desktop shortcut, as I
already have one.  There was no indication during the install to inform the
user that mintty is now the default startup, instead of cygwin.bat.

At this point in time, I have no clue as to how to set up cygwin to use it,
just to see what it is like.  The rxvt program has been working for me.

MB
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Re: Latest cygwin.bat - need one

[Ken Brown]

On 12/12/2011 12:44 PM, Mike Brown wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:45:12AM -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
>> There is no longer a default BAT file, and the Windows console is no longer
>> the default terminal.  The default terminal is now mintty.  The current
>> setup.exe creates desktop and start menu shortcuts to start it. This was
>> announced in
>>
>>    http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-announce/2011-11/msg00043.html
>
[...]
> So, just what is a user supposed to think when reading the documentation.

You're right, the documentation is out of date.  I'll try to submit some 
patches within the next couple weeks if no one beats me to it.  (Much of 
the documentation has already been updated in CVS.)

By the way, I was wrong when I said there is no longer a default BAT 
file.  setup.exe still creates /Cygwin.bat if it doesn't already exist. 
  But setup.exe no longer creates a shortcut to start it.

> When I did the install, I told it not to install the desktop shortcut, as I
> already have one.  There was no indication during the install to inform the
> user that mintty is now the default startup, instead of cygwin.bat.
>
> At this point in time, I have no clue as to how to set up cygwin to use it,
> just to see what it is like.  The rxvt program has been working for me.

There's nothing to set up.  You just click on the start menu shortcut. 
You can then right click in the mintty window and select "Options" if 
you want to change some of the defaults.

Ken

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Re: Latest cygwin.bat - need one

[Mike Brown]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 03:28:39PM -0500, Ken Brown wrote:
> There's nothing to set up.  You just click on the start menu shortcut. You 
> can then right click in the mintty window and select "Options" if you want 
> to change some of the defaults.

In my case that is a no go.  That is because, as mentioned, I told the
installer not to create the desktop shortcut or the start menu option, as I
already had them.  So, the start menu currently points to the BAT file.

If there is an example of what the desktop shortcut has for the properties,
I can create one to see what mintty looks like.  I've never used mintty
under Solaris or Linux.

MB
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Re: Latest cygwin.bat - need one

[Jeremy Bopp]

On 12/12/2011 03:23 PM, Mike Brown wrote:
> In my case that is a no go.  That is because, as mentioned, I told the
> installer not to create the desktop shortcut or the start menu option, as I
> already had them.  So, the start menu currently points to the BAT file.

Hmm, it seems that my messages aren't getting through since I mentioned
how to create such a shortcut just a little while ago, but I'll try one
more time...

Create a shortcut that starts in the bin directory of your Cygwin
installation.  Have it run:

mintty -

That's it as far as I remember.  Of course, the easy way is to just run
setup.exe again and let it create the shortcut for you.  Then you know
you have the right settings.

> If there is an example of what the desktop shortcut has for the properties,
> I can create one to see what mintty looks like.  I've never used mintty
> under Solaris or Linux.

Mintty doesn't exist under Solaris or Linux, only Cygwin.

-Jeremy

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Re: Latest cygwin.bat - need one

[Gary Johnson]

On 2011-12-12, Jeremy Bopp wrote:
> On 12/12/2011 03:23 PM, Mike Brown wrote:
> > In my case that is a no go.  That is because, as mentioned, I told the
> > installer not to create the desktop shortcut or the start menu option, as I
> > already had them.  So, the start menu currently points to the BAT file.
> 
> Hmm, it seems that my messages aren't getting through since I mentioned
> how to create such a shortcut just a little while ago, but I'll try one
> more time...
> 
> Create a shortcut that starts in the bin directory of your Cygwin
> installation.  Have it run:
> 
> mintty -
> 
> That's it as far as I remember.  Of course, the easy way is to just run
> setup.exe again and let it create the shortcut for you.  Then you know
> you have the right settings.

I just ran the new setup.exe a few weeks ago and haven't changed the
new Cygwin Terminal shortcut's properties.  These are the most
important ones.

    General
        [Name:] Cygwin Terminal
    Shortcut
        Target: C:\cygwin\bin\mintty.exe -i /Cygwin-Terminal.ico -
        Start in: [empty]
        Shortcut key: None
        Run: Normal window
        [Icon:] C:\cygwin\Cygwin-Termina.ico

HTH,
Gary


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Re: Latest cygwin.bat - need one

[Mike Brown]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 04:11:48PM -0800, Gary Johnson wrote:
>     General
>         [Name:] Cygwin Terminal
>     Shortcut
>         Target: C:\cygwin\bin\mintty.exe -i /Cygwin-Terminal.ico -
>         Start in: [empty]
>         Shortcut key: None
>         Run: Normal window
>         [Icon:] C:\cygwin\Cygwin-Termina.ico

Thanks, I created a shortcut with the above info and it is close.

It starts and it finds my shell and my config files.  But $SHELL is empty
and the terminal has no clue as to where any of the Cygwin programs are.
The PATH that is created before any of my files are read contains info on
Windblows program locations, but nowhere is /usr/bin or /bin, or any of the
long path names to the Cygwin binaries.

When started from the cygwin.bat file, "/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:" prefice
the Windblows paths.  So, a PATH that includes the needed info to the cygwin
binaries is built when BAT is run, but not when mintty is started.

Is there a reason why Cygwin is not building a PATH with the needed info?

I've modified my environment resource file to look for $TERM == xterm and
added the needed Cygwin paths.

BTW, what is with white text on a black background?  UGGHH!  :-)

MB
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Re: mintty

[Mike Brown]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 07:37:46PM -0600, Mike Brown wrote:
> Is there a reason why Cygwin is not building a PATH with the needed info?

Not only that, it doesn't start out in the user's home directory.

MB
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MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Hi,

I'd like to introduce "MinTTY", a terminal emulator for Cygwin that I've 
been working on for a while. It is based on the terminal emulation and 
Windows frontend parts of PuTTY 0.60 by Simon Tatham and his team.

Unlike PuTTYcyg, MinTTY discards PuTTY's networking functions, which are 
already convered by Cygwin's ssh and telnet packages. This results in 
simpler configuration, a leaner interface and small code size. MinTTY's 
most obvious difference to rxvt is its native Windows interface and 
configuration dialog.

More info, as well as the latest sources and binary can be found on the 
project page:

   http://code.google.com/p/mintty

The MinTTY discussion group can be found at:

   http://groups.google.com/group/mintty-discuss

I hope you'll give MinTTY a try, and I'm looking forward to feedback and 
questions. Bug reports and feature requests can be sent via the issue 
tracker on the project page.

Regards,
Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Reini Urban]

2008/12/29 Andy Koppe:
> I'd like to introduce "MinTTY", a terminal emulator for Cygwin that I've
> been working on for a while. It is based on the terminal emulation and
> Windows frontend parts of PuTTY 0.60 by Simon Tatham and his team.
>
> Unlike PuTTYcyg, MinTTY discards PuTTY's networking functions, which are
> already convered by Cygwin's ssh and telnet packages. This results in
> simpler configuration, a leaner interface and small code size. MinTTY's most
> obvious difference to rxvt is its native Windows interface and configuration
> dialog.

Transparency in XP! Good.

Line cursor: hmm.

Speed: Fastest.

Thanks!
-- 
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.org/              http://murbreak.at/

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Re: MinTTY

[Charles Wilson]

> 2008/12/29 Andy Koppe:
>> Unlike PuTTYcyg, MinTTY discards PuTTY's networking functions, which are
>> already convered by Cygwin's ssh and telnet packages. This results in
>> simpler configuration, a leaner interface and small code size. MinTTY's most
>> obvious difference to rxvt is its native Windows interface and configuration
>> dialog.

Me likey. It will be interesting to play with the codepage support
(already present, apparently) in this terminal -- perhaps UTF-8 +
cygwin-1.7...

The obvious similarity between MinTTY and rxvt is that both use pty
emulation to communicate with the inferior, which can sometimes cause
issues when running "native" (e.g. non-cygwin) applications. But, that's
not a /defect/, per se, just something that users should be aware of.

This looks like a great addition to the cygwin-related toolbox. I look
forward to seeing where you go with this in the future.

Reini Urban wrote:
> Line cursor: hmm.
Changeable in options dialog.

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cygwin/rxvt "maintainer"

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Charles Wilson wrote:

> It will be interesting to play with the codepage support
> (already present, apparently) in this terminal -- perhaps UTF-8 +
> cygwin-1.7...

That would be interesting indeed, and hopefully I haven't broken any of 
PuTTY's Unicode support. Just set the codepage to UTF-8 to try (assuming 
MinTTY compiles and runs on 1.7, which I haven't yet tried).

Is there an overview somewhere about the Unicode features in cygwin-1.7?

> The obvious similarity between MinTTY and rxvt is that both use pty
> emulation to communicate with the inferior, which can sometimes cause
> issues when running "native" (e.g. non-cygwin) applications. But, that's
> not a /defect/, per se, just something that users should be aware of.

Good point. I should mention that on the project page.

> This looks like a great addition to the cygwin-related toolbox. I look
> forward to seeing where you go with this in the future.

First off, documentation. :)

Thanks,
Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Robert Pendell]

Andy Koppe wrote:
> Charles Wilson wrote:
> 
>> It will be interesting to play with the codepage support
>> (already present, apparently) in this terminal -- perhaps UTF-8 +
>> cygwin-1.7...
> 
> That would be interesting indeed, and hopefully I haven't broken any of
> PuTTY's Unicode support. Just set the codepage to UTF-8 to try (assuming
> MinTTY compiles and runs on 1.7, which I haven't yet tried).

It runs on 1.7 but does not appear to execute the shell as a login one.
 I use bash and .bash_profile never gets executed when using MinTTY
directly.  I can help you debug it if you wish.

> 
> Is there an overview somewhere about the Unicode features in cygwin-1.7?
> 
>> The obvious similarity between MinTTY and rxvt is that both use pty
>> emulation to communicate with the inferior, which can sometimes cause
>> issues when running "native" (e.g. non-cygwin) applications. But, that's
>> not a /defect/, per se, just something that users should be aware of.
> 
> Good point. I should mention that on the project page.
> 
>> This looks like a great addition to the cygwin-related toolbox. I look
>> forward to seeing where you go with this in the future.
> 
> First off, documentation. :)
> 
> Thanks,
> Andy
> 

Beyond that one little bit you did a great job otherwise.

The create_shortcut.js script is assuming a 1.5 setup by searching for
and parsing the 1.5 registry keys which may or may not exist on a 1.7
setup.  While I can setup this myself manually (I actually already did)
it may be a good idea to check out the /etc/fstab file format and parse
that.  The starter dir will be located at HKLM\SOFTWARE\Cygwin\setup
with the parameter 'rootdir'.  It is a string dir.  There is no trailing
slash on my install here.

BTW, If anyone is having trouble running the script the below command
will allow you to run it regardless.  .js is also associated with
JavaScript and not just JScript.  I had .js associated to Notepad+ on my
system so it wasn't just a double-click and go.  Maybe re-write the
script as VBScript instead?

In a command prompt with the location of the file as the current dir
(e.g. if the file is on your desktop then %USERPROFILE%\Desktop should
be your current dir)
cscript //E:JScript desktop_shortcut.js

You may replace cscript with wscript if you want window popups instead.


-- 
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shinji@elite-systems.org

"A perfect world is one of chaos."

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Re: MinTTY

[Robert Pendell]

Robert Pendell wrote:
> It runs on 1.7 but does not appear to execute the shell as a login one.
>  I use bash and .bash_profile never gets executed when using MinTTY
> directly.  I can help you debug it if you wish.
> 

I stand corrected here.  I checked some more.  The batch script (which I
forgot that I used the cygwin default one) runs bash automatically with
'--login -i' appended to it.  I also found that you can run a command
when mintty runs as the shell.  I modified cygwin.bat to execute mintty.
 Looks like mintty doesn't detach completely on it's own so I appended
'start' to the beginning to it.  The program will continue to run but
the black box will disappear.  If start doesn't work then use 'cygstart'
instead as that one is supplied by cygwin.  Basically the last line of
cygwin.bat was changed to show as...

start mintty bash --login -i

;)


-- 
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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Robert Pendell wrote:
> I modified cygwin.bat to execute mintty.
> Looks like mintty doesn't detach completely on it's own 

Yep, that's a known issue (number 4 in the issue tracker), and I haven't
yet worked out how to do this properly. I've tried closing files 0
through 3 and doing a setsid(), but that's not sufficient. Hints on how
to detach properly would be much appreciated.

> I appended
> 'start' to the beginning to it.  The program will continue to run but
> the black box will disappear.  If start doesn't work then use 'cygstart'
> instead as that one is supplied by cygwin.  Basically the last line of
> cygwin.bat was changed to show as...
> 
> start mintty bash --login -i

Thanks! That's a good workaround.

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Andy Koppe (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:00:29 +0000)> 
> Robert Pendell wrote:
> > I modified cygwin.bat to execute mintty.
> > Looks like mintty doesn't detach completely on it's own 
> 
> Yep, that's a known issue (number 4 in the issue tracker), and I haven't
> yet worked out how to do this properly. I've tried closing files 0
> through 3 and doing a setsid(), but that's not sufficient. Hints on how
> to detach properly would be much appreciated.

?? If you run a GUI application from a batch file on the NT family, the 
batch file will not close until the GUI app is closed. So this behaviour 
of mintty is not an "issue" but completely normal.

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Robert Pendell (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:21:40 -0500)> 
> Robert Pendell wrote:
> > It runs on 1.7 but does not appear to execute the shell as a login one.
> >  I use bash and .bash_profile never gets executed when using MinTTY
> > directly.  I can help you debug it if you wish.
> 
> I stand corrected here.  I checked some more.  The batch script (which I
> forgot that I used the cygwin default one) runs bash automatically with
> '--login -i' appended to it.  I also found that you can run a command
> when mintty runs as the shell.  I modified cygwin.bat to execute mintty.
>  Looks like mintty doesn't detach completely on it's own so I appended
> 'start' to the beginning to it.  The program will continue to run but
> the black box will disappear.  If start doesn't work then use 'cygstart'
> instead as that one is supplied by cygwin.  Basically the last line of
> cygwin.bat was changed to show as...
> 
> start mintty bash --login -i

If you don't want a Windows console terminal then running or modifying 
the Cygwin batch file is completely pointless. Simply create a shortcut 
as described in the Readme: "Create a shortcut to mintty.exe with the 
working directory set to the Cygwin bin directory. The 
create_shortcut.js script will do this for you.".

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Reini Urban wrote:

> Transparency in XP! Good.

That's only a matter of a couple of function calls actually. 
Unfortunately though it applies to the window as a whole, not just to 
the background. Per-pixel alpha can be done, but only at the cost of 
painting all the window decoration manually, so that's not going to 
happen. It might be more feasible in Vista though.

> Line cursor: hmm.

Sorry 'bout that. I tried to stick to both Windows and X conventions, 
but where they clashed I generally went with Windows-style defaults, for 
consistency with the rest of the system.

The following settings will give you something more Xish:
   - Looks:
       Cursor: Block
       Enable cursor blinking: off
   - Mouse:
       Right click action: Extend
       Copy on select: on

> Speed: Fastest.

Cheers,
Andy

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RE: MinTTY

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

Hmm, looks very interesting, I'll give it a try and report back to the
class.  I've been looking for a replacement for my preferred terminal
emulator, MedicineTTY, for quite some time. ;-)

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 

> From: Andy Koppe
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'd like to introduce "MinTTY", a terminal emulator for 
> Cygwin that I've been working on for a while. It is based on 
> the terminal emulation and Windows frontend parts of PuTTY 
> 0.60 by Simon Tatham and his team.
> 
> Unlike PuTTYcyg, MinTTY discards PuTTY's networking 
> functions, which are already convered by Cygwin's ssh and 
> telnet packages. This results in simpler configuration, a 
> leaner interface and small code size. MinTTY's most obvious 
> difference to rxvt is its native Windows interface and 
> configuration dialog.
> 
> More info, as well as the latest sources and binary can be 
> found on the project page:
> 
>    http://code.google.com/p/mintty
> 
> The MinTTY discussion group can be found at:
> 
>    http://groups.google.com/group/mintty-discuss
> 
> I hope you'll give MinTTY a try, and I'm looking forward to 
> feedback and questions. Bug reports and feature requests can 
> be sent via the issue tracker on the project page.
> 
> Regards,
> Andy
> 


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RE: MinTTY

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

Hey Andy,

After a thorough 2-minute evaluation, I can give you the following feedback:

1.  Good work.
2.  Super fast.
3.  Cut and paste in a Unixoid terminal for Cygwin finally conforms to
Windows norms (AKA "The One True Way").  That alone is worth it.
4.  I wasn't getting color from ls, but that appears to be a
termcap/terminfo/wrong-bash-invocation issue, as your screenshots clearly
show color support.
5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.
5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip one up for
you?

This will likely become my default terminal unless a more thorough
evaluation turns up some showstopper.  Excellent work!

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 

> From: Gary R. Van Sickle
> 
> Hmm, looks very interesting, I'll give it a try and report 
> back to the class.  I've been looking for a replacement for 
> my preferred terminal emulator, MedicineTTY, for quite some time. ;-)
> 
> --
> Gary R. Van Sickle
>  
> 
> > From: Andy Koppe
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I'd like to introduce "MinTTY", a terminal emulator for 
> > Cygwin that I've been working on for a while. It is based on 
> > the terminal emulation and Windows frontend parts of PuTTY 
> > 0.60 by Simon Tatham and his team.
> > 
> > Unlike PuTTYcyg, MinTTY discards PuTTY's networking 
> > functions, which are already convered by Cygwin's ssh and 
> > telnet packages. This results in simpler configuration, a 
> > leaner interface and small code size. MinTTY's most obvious 
> > difference to rxvt is its native Windows interface and 
> > configuration dialog.
> > 
> > More info, as well as the latest sources and binary can be 
> > found on the project page:
> > 
> >    http://code.google.com/p/mintty
> > 
> > The MinTTY discussion group can be found at:
> > 
> >    http://groups.google.com/group/mintty-discuss
> > 
> > I hope you'll give MinTTY a try, and I'm looking forward to 
> > feedback and questions. Bug reports and feature requests can 
> > be sent via the issue tracker on the project page.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Andy
> > 


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RE: MinTTY

[Arun Biyani]

Very Good.

On the options dialog box, an apply button would be a good
Addition.

Arun

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

> On the options dialog box, an apply button would be a good
> Addition.

Agreed. I've entered issue 12 for this.

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RE: MinTTY

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:26 AM:
> 5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.
> 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip one up
> for you?

Just curious:  Why does this need "a regular Windows installer"?  Why not
make this a cygwin package?  (I suppose this goes for PuTTYcyg et al.)

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 10:58:15AM -0500, Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] wrote:
>Gary R. Van Sickle wrote on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:26 AM:
>> 5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.
>> 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip one up
>> for you?
>
>Just curious:  Why does this need "a regular Windows installer"?  Why not
>make this a cygwin package?  (I suppose this goes for PuTTYcyg et al.)

I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
would get enough votes.  In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
I think that would alleviate a lot of confusion.

Puttycyg is a different story.  I don't really feel comfortable having
another ssh implementation in Cygwin.  The call is obviously Corinna's in
this case but that's my 2c.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
> would get enough votes.

That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
MinTTY package maintainer?

> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.

I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And 
of course it needs a lot more testing.

Speaking of cygwin.bat, is that actually still needed? I find that bash 
can be invoked more directly through a shortcut, and working directory 
and icon can be set there too. The same works for mintty.

Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
>> would get enough votes.
>
> That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
> requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
> MinTTY package maintainer?
>
>> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
>> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
>
> I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
> the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
> course it needs a lot more testing.

That's always an irritating issue.

> Speaking of cygwin.bat, is that actually still needed? I find that bash can 
> be invoked more directly through a shortcut, and working directory and icon 
> can be set there too. The same works for mintty.

I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin
environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that
with a shortcut is there?

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Warren Young]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> 
> I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin
> environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that
> with a shortcut is there?

In this case, it could be one of MinTTY's settings, because it can set 
up the environment before calling bash.

For that matter, MinTTY could also provide GUI access to bash command 
line flags, a way to change the login shell by modifying /etc/passwd, etc.

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:34:52PM -0700, Warren Young wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin
>> environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that
>> with a shortcut is there?
>
> In this case, it could be one of MinTTY's settings, because it can set up 
> the environment before calling bash.
>
> For that matter, MinTTY could also provide GUI access to bash command line 
> flags, a way to change the login shell by modifying /etc/passwd, etc.

It would have to do that since the CYGWIN environment settings have to be
settable by the user.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Christopher Faylor (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 00:43:04 -0500)> 
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:34:52PM -0700, Warren Young wrote:
> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >> I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin
> >> environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that
> >> with a shortcut is there?
> >
> > In this case, it could be one of MinTTY's settings, because it can set up 
> > the environment before calling bash.
> >
> > For that matter, MinTTY could also provide GUI access to bash command line 
> > flags, a way to change the login shell by modifying /etc/passwd, etc.
> 
> It would have to do that since the CYGWIN environment settings have to be
> settable by the user.

They always are (through the GUI). The default Cygwin.bat file does not 
set any enviroment variables, so it is superfluous itself (a shortcut to 
"bash -li" would be better).

Thorsten


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RE: MinTTY

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: Warren Young
> 
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
> > 
> > I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin 
> > environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that 
> > with a shortcut is there?
> 
> In this case, it could be one of MinTTY's settings, because 
> it can set up the environment before calling bash.
> 

Yes, but there's the complication of "CYGWIN=" settings that have to be set
before the Cygwin DLL even loads.  I don't know how many of these 1.7 will
obsolete, but it's something that probably requires some cogitation before
implementing.

> For that matter, MinTTY could also provide GUI access to bash 
> command line flags, a way to change the login shell by 
> modifying /etc/passwd, etc.

It could be glorious!  Well, or overachieving ;-).  For me it'd just be
great to have a nice terminal that didn't require an X server and had
Windows native-y configuration and copy/paste.  We'll get to that 21st
century yet!

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle


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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:

> Yes, but there's the complication of "CYGWIN=" settings that have to be set
> before the Cygwin DLL even loads.  

Thanks for pointing that out.

>> For that matter, MinTTY could also provide GUI access to bash 
>> command line flags, a way to change the login shell by 
>> modifying /etc/passwd, etc.
> 
> It could be glorious!  Well, or overachieving ;-).

Yep, I'd rather stick to core functionality. Well ok, and just a little
helping of pointless eye candy. :)

Bash options can already be set on the command line passed to mintty, or
of course within bash itself. If there was special support for bash in
the terminal, than why not for tcsh, zsh, vi, emacs, ...

Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Christopher Faylor (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:05:35 -0500)> 
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
> >> would get enough votes.
> >
> > That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
> > requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
> > MinTTY package maintainer?
> >
> >> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
> >> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
> >
> > I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
> > the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
> > course it needs a lot more testing.
> 
> That's always an irritating issue.

?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
"old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
use "start".
 
> > Speaking of cygwin.bat, is that actually still needed? I find that bash can 
> > be invoked more directly through a shortcut, and working directory and icon 
> > can be set there too. The same works for mintty.
> 
> I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin
> environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that
> with a shortcut is there?

Not just for the shortcut. Windows has a GUI setting for user and system 
variables (which is quite lenthy to access).

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>* Christopher Faylor (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:05:35 -0500)> 
>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
>> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> >> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
>> >> would get enough votes.
>> >
>> > That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
>> > requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
>> > MinTTY package maintainer?
>> >
>> >> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
>> >> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
>> >
>> > I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
>> > the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
>> > course it needs a lot more testing.
>> 
>> That's always an irritating issue.
>
>?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
>then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
>would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
>"old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
>use "start".

How does any of the above make this non-irritating?

cgf 

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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Christopher Faylor (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:28:30 -0500)> 
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >* Christopher Faylor (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:05:35 -0500)> 
> >> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> >> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >> >> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
> >> >> would get enough votes.
> >> >
> >> > That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
> >> > requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
> >> > MinTTY package maintainer?
> >> >
> >> >> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
> >> >> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
> >> >
> >> > I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
> >> > the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
> >> > course it needs a lot more testing.
> >> 
> >> That's always an irritating issue.
> >
> >?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
> >then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
> >would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
> >"old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
> >use "start".
> 
> How does any of the above make this non-irritating?

I don't understand the question.

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 05:30:17PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>* Christopher Faylor (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:28:30 -0500)> 
>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>> >* Christopher Faylor (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:05:35 -0500)> 
>> >> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
>> >> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> >> >> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
>> >> >> would get enough votes.
>> >> >
>> >> > That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
>> >> > requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
>> >> > MinTTY package maintainer?
>> >> >
>> >> >> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
>> >> >> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
>> >> > the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
>> >> > course it needs a lot more testing.
>> >> 
>> >> That's always an irritating issue.
>> >
>> >?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
>> >then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
>> >would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
>> >"old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
>> >use "start".
>> 
>> How does any of the above make this non-irritating?
>
>I don't understand the question.

Then live in ignorance.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Christopher Faylor (Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:16:41 -0500)> 
> On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 05:30:17PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >* Christopher Faylor (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:28:30 -0500)> 
> >> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >> >* Christopher Faylor (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:05:35 -0500)> 
> >> >> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> >> >> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >> >> >> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
> >> >> >> would get enough votes.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
> >> >> > requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
> >> >> > MinTTY package maintainer?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
> >> >> >> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
> >> >> > the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
> >> >> > course it needs a lot more testing.
> >> >> 
> >> >> That's always an irritating issue.
> >> >
> >> >?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
> >> >then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
> >> >would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
> >> >"old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
> >> >use "start".
> >> 
> >> How does any of the above make this non-irritating?
> >
> >I don't understand the question.
> 
> Then live in ignorance.

That'll be my fate from now on... Woe is me!

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> ?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
> then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
> would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
> "old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
> use "start".

You've convinced me. Issue 4 closed as "WontFix". Thanks!

> Windows has a GUI setting for user and system 
> variables (which is quite lenthy to access).

I couldn't find a user side GUI setting, although the registry key is in
a pretty obvious place: HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Environment

Andy


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RE: MinTTY

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

Thorsten Kampe wrote on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:40 AM:
> you have to use "start".

Or "cygstart.exe"?

> Windows has a GUI setting for user and system variables (which is
> quite lenthy to access).

Start Menu =>
  Settings =>
    Control Panel =>
      System (applet) =>
        Advanced (tab) =>
          Environment Variables (button) =>
            New (button)

Though it's not short, "quite lengthy" sounds longer than I find it
in practice.

Though it might be nice if setup.exe had a button that opened a
dialog to set %CYGWIN% with all the currently available options as
radio buttons.  (I know: PTC.)  Or since the mount table is moving
from the Registry to a file, maybe in 1.7 %CYGWIN% could be in a
text file.

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.

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RE: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:03:48 -0500)> 
> Thorsten Kampe wrote on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:40 AM:
> > you have to use "start".
> 
> Or "cygstart.exe"?

Right. Although there is no real advantage to use that instead of start.
 
> > Windows has a GUI setting for user and system variables (which is
> > quite lenthy to access).
> 
> Start Menu =>
>   Settings =>
>     Control Panel =>
>       System (applet) =>
>         Advanced (tab) =>
>           Environment Variables (button) =>
>             New (button)
> 
> Though it's not short, "quite lengthy" sounds longer than I find it
> in practice.

Okay. Can we say "a little bit lengthy although not as lenghty as 
someone might expect"?

Thorsten


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RE: MinTTY

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

Thorsten Kampe wrote on Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:37 AM:
> * Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:03:48 -0500)>
>> Thorsten Kampe wrote on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:40 AM:
>>> you have to use "start".
>>
>> Or "cygstart.exe"?
>
> Right. Although there is no real advantage to use that instead of
> start.

On XP there is no start.exe.  (98se )  So you have to use
        cmd /c start

The main advantage of cygstart is that it understands POSIX paths.

I seem to remember that sometimes quoting can be simpler with cygstart
than with `cmd /c start'.

> Okay. Can we say "a little bit lengthy although not as lenghty as
> someone might expect"?

Yes.  :-)

Actually, when I started writing the steps to get at the environmental
variables I was surprised that it was so much longer than I remembered.

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.

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RE: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] (Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:10:17 -0500)
> 
> Thorsten Kampe wrote on Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:37 AM:
> > * Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:03:48 -0500)>
> >> Thorsten Kampe wrote on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:40 AM:
> >>> you have to use "start".
> >>
> >> Or "cygstart.exe"?
> >
> > Right. Although there is no real advantage to use that instead of
> > start.
> 
> On XP there is no start.exe.  (98se )  So you have to use
>         cmd /c start
> 
> The main advantage of cygstart is that it understands POSIX paths.
> 
> I seem to remember that sometimes quoting can be simpler with cygstart
> than with `cmd /c start'.

We were talking about launching applications from a batch script. In 
regard to batch files I have to say that your considerations - which are 
absolutely correct - are not relevant.

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Andy Koppe wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds
>> like it
>> would get enough votes.
> 
> That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission
> requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the
> MinTTY package maintainer?

Usually those who write programs especially for Cygwin are their own
package maintainers, for obvious reasons.  But as this looks quite
interesting, I quickly put together a package for Ports which could get
you started:

http://cygwin-ports.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cygwin-ports/ports/trunk/apps/mintty/

Check out this directory, then use cygport to build it.  If you're new
to cygport, the package README is a must-read.


Yaakov
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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> Andy Koppe wrote:
>> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds
>>> like it
>>> would get enough votes.
>> That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission
>> requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the
>> MinTTY package maintainer?
> 
> Usually those who write programs especially for Cygwin are their own
> package maintainers, for obvious reasons.  But as this looks quite
> interesting, I quickly put together a package for Ports which could get
> you started:
> 
> http://cygwin-ports.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cygwin-ports/ports/trunk/apps/mintty/
> 
> Check out this directory, then use cygport to build it.  If you're new
> to cygport, the package README is a must-read.

Thank you very much! Yep, I'm entirely new to this, so what with those 
pesky New Year festivities taking away valuable hacking time it might be 
a little while to familiarise myself with this packaging lark. :)

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Andy Koppe wrote:
> Thank you very much! Yep, I'm entirely new to this, so what with those
> pesky New Year festivities taking away valuable hacking time it might be
> a little while to familiarise myself with this packaging lark. :)

I just simplified the build a bit in SVN, so if you grabbed it before,
you'll want to svn up.


Yaakov
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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
> I quickly put together a package for Ports which could get you started:
> 
> http://cygwin-ports.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cygwin-ports/ports/trunk/apps/mintty/
> 
> Check out this directory, then use cygport to build it.  If you're new
> to cygport, the package README is a must-read.

Okay, I'm having a go at this. cygport does look very nice indeed, but 
unfortunately I got stuck anyway.

So I've got the following files all in one directory:

   mintty-0.3.4-1.cygport
   mintty-0.3.4-src.tgz
   setup.hint
   postinstall.sh
   preremove.sh

Building the source and binary packages works, except for the following:

   *** Warning: setup.hint is missing

postinstall.sh and preremove.sh do not get included in the packages 
either. The cygport README tells me that those files should all be 
placed in the CYGWIN-PATCHES directory. So I naively created a that 
directory alongside the .cygport and shuffled the three files in there, 
but to no effect.

I also tried copying them the to ${C} at the start of src_install():

   cp setup.hint postinstall.sh preremove.sh ${C}

Alas, 'cp' couldn't find those files, presumably because it isn't run in 
the same directory as the .cygport file.

So my probably rather stupid question is, where should I be putting 
those files and how?

Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Andy Koppe wrote:

> Okay, I'm having a go at this. cygport does look very nice indeed, but 
> unfortunately I got stuck anyway.
> 
> So I've got the following files all in one directory:
> 
>   mintty-0.3.4-1.cygport
>   mintty-0.3.4-src.tgz
>   setup.hint
>   postinstall.sh
>   preremove.sh
> 
> Building the source and binary packages works, except for the following:
> 
>   *** Warning: setup.hint is missing
> 
> postinstall.sh and preremove.sh do not get included in the packages 
> either. The cygport README tells me that those files should all be 
> placed in the CYGWIN-PATCHES directory. So I naively created a that 
> directory alongside the .cygport and shuffled the three files in there, 
> but to no effect.
> 
> I also tried copying them the to ${C} at the start of src_install():
> 
>   cp setup.hint postinstall.sh preremove.sh ${C}
> 
> Alas, 'cp' couldn't find those files, presumably because it isn't run in 
> the same directory as the .cygport file.
> 
> So my probably rather stupid question is, where should I be putting 
> those files and how?

I worked it out, I think: run cygport prep command, copy the files into 
foo-x.y.z-r/CYGWIN-PATCHES, and run cygport compile, install and package 
commands.

Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Andy Koppe wrote:
> I worked it out, I think: run cygport prep command, copy the files into
> foo-x.y.z-r/CYGWIN-PATCHES, and run cygport compile, install and package
> commands.

Exactly.


Yaakov
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Re: MinTTY

[Warren Young]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> 
> I don't really feel comfortable having
> another ssh implementation in Cygwin.

wget, curl
lftp, ncftp
links, lynx
GraphicsMagic, ImageMagick
ash, bash, tcsh, zsh, scsh, pdksh, posh
vim, nano, emacs, joe, xemacs, nedit, xedit, gvim

....need I go on?

Not that I'm pushing for including a puttycyg package.  You'll just need 
a better justification than that to keep it out.

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Re: MinTTY

[Larry Hall (Cygwin)]

Warren Young wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>
>> I don't really feel comfortable having
>> another ssh implementation in Cygwin.
> 
> wget, curl
> lftp, ncftp
> links, lynx
> GraphicsMagic, ImageMagick
> ash, bash, tcsh, zsh, scsh, pdksh, posh
> vim, nano, emacs, joe, xemacs, nedit, xedit, gvim
> 
> ....need I go on?
> 
> Not that I'm pushing for including a puttycyg package.  You'll just need 
> a better justification than that to keep it out.

What do any of the programs you've listed have to do with ssh?  Certainly
none of these that comprise Cygwin packages have a ssh implementation of
their own as part of the package.  Since this is what Chris was voicing
concern about, I don't see that any of utilities you listed above would
fall into the same category.  I guess you'll have to try harder. ;-)

-- 
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RFK Partners, Inc.                      (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
216 Dalton Rd.                          (508) 893-9889 - FAX
Holliston, MA 01746

_____________________________________________________________________

A: Yes.
 > Q: Are you sure?
 >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
 >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?

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Re: MinTTY

[Warren Young]

Larry Hall (Cygwin) wrote:
> 
> What do any of the programs you've listed have to do with ssh?  

Not a thing.

But if we can't tolerate two ssh implementations, why can we tolerate 
two command line web page fetchers?  Or two FTP clients?  Or two web 
clients?  Or two graphics manipulation packages?  Or seven interactive 
command shells?  Or eight text editors?  Or...?

What makes ssh so special that There Can Be Only One?

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Re: MinTTY

[Larry Hall (Cygwin)]

Warren Young wrote:
> Larry Hall (Cygwin) wrote:
>>
>> What do any of the programs you've listed have to do with ssh?  
> 
> Not a thing.
> 
> But if we can't tolerate two ssh implementations, why can we tolerate 
> two command line web page fetchers?  Or two FTP clients?  Or two web 
> clients?  Or two graphics manipulation packages?  Or seven interactive 
> command shells?  Or eight text editors?  Or...?
> 
> What makes ssh so special that There Can Be Only One?

I think Chris has clarified this for you in his response.  Being a long
time reader of this list and witnessing the volume of email about the
current OpenSSH package (I'm not implying any problem with Corinna's
work on this!), I agree with Chris's opinion that it is unlikely to help
if there is yet another Cygwin package with an 'ssh' implementation as
part of it.  To me, at least, that's what makes 'ssh' so special.

-- 
Larry Hall                              http://www.rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
216 Dalton Rd.                          (508) 893-9889 - FAX
Holliston, MA 01746

_____________________________________________________________________

A: Yes.
 > Q: Are you sure?
 >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
 >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:32:12PM -0700, Warren Young wrote:
>Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>I don't really feel comfortable having another ssh implementation in
>>Cygwin.  The call is obviously Corinna's in this case but that's my 2c.
>
>wget, curl lftp, ncftp links, lynx GraphicsMagic, ImageMagick ash,
>bash, tcsh, zsh, scsh, pdksh, posh vim, nano, emacs, joe, xemacs,
>nedit, xedit, gvim
>
>....need I go on?
>
>Not that I'm pushing for including a puttycyg package.  You'll just
>need a better justification than that to keep it out.

All of the examples you quoted above are found in standard linux
distributions.  Unlike... you know... "puttycyg".  And, given the
problems we have with end-user ssh confusion now, I don't see any
reason to add another variation.

I was willing to consider MinTTY since people were raving about how nice
it was and I didn't think that Chuck was overly thrilled about
maintaining the windows-only version of rxvt.  I haven't heard that
puttycyg offers superior linux-like ssh functionality to openssh.

But, as I said in the part that you snipped, I was expressing an
opinion.  I would consider this to be Corinna's call.

But, since no one that I can remember has offered puttycyg as a
package the discussion is pretty pointless.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:51:06AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>It sounds like it would get enough votes.  In fact, if it operates like
>an xterm on Windows maybe it should even be the default program that is
>invoked by cygwin.bat.

I finally played around with this a little.  It is nice.   It reminds
me a little bit of Console2 - http://console.sourceforge.net/.

One thing that Console2 does is provide a true "console" interface which
doesn't rely on anything like Cygwin's ptys.  Console2 allows resizing
and customization of mouse behavior.

I've spent a fair amount of time trying to find some way to improve
cygwin's pty behavior so that ptys behave like real windows consoles.
Console2 apparently uses a polling interface over a captive invisible
console to fool programs into thinking that they are running in a real
Windows console.  I don't feel like I should look too closely like this
because Console2 is GPLed and I'd taint my ability to contribute any
code back to Cygwin.

The downside of Console2's method is that the polling causes a little
bit of lagginess in typing, on my system at least.  You don't see that
on mintty even though it is using cygwin's ptys which are not exactly
tuned for performance.

On further reflection, I think that the fact that mintty uses cygwin
ptys may be a show stopper as far as making it the default is concerned.
I don't think we can have the default command line interface misbehave
when it runs some standard Windows programs, like, if memory serves, the
"NET" command in some cases.

Also, the mouse behavior isn't like xterm or xterm imitators so it
wouldn't necessarily be intuitive for someone coming over from linux.
I'm sure that could be changed though.  Did I miss a configuration
for mouse and cut/paste behavior?

I still think it would be a nice addition to the list of Cygwin
packages.  It gets my +1 vote.

Oh, and if you want to get rid of the console window when mintty is
started from a bat file, I think FreeConsole() would do the trick.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Reini Urban]

Christopher Faylor schrieb:
> I still think it would be a nice addition to the list of Cygwin
> packages.  It gets my +1 vote.

It has my vote also: +1, if based on Yaakov's cygport, and not the 
current .js mkshortcut helper.

http://cygwin-ports.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cygwin-ports/ports/trunk/apps/mintty/
-- 
Reini

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 08:07:39PM +0100, Reini Urban wrote:
>Christopher Faylor schrieb:
>>I still think it would be a nice addition to the list of Cygwin
>>packages.  It gets my +1 vote.
>
>It has my vote also: +1, if based on Yaakov's cygport, and not the
>current .js mkshortcut helper.
>
>http://cygwin-ports.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cygwin-ports/ports/trunk/apps/mintty/

I don't think the method used to build from source should have any
bearing on whether the package is accepted.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> I finally played around with this a little.  It is nice.   It reminds
> me a little bit of Console2 - http://console.sourceforge.net/.
> 
> One thing that Console2 does is provide a true "console" interface which
> doesn't rely on anything like Cygwin's ptys.  

On the other hand, it isn't actually a terminal emulator as such. What 
it does do is to put a nicer interface on the Windows console, so for 
Cygwin programs you still get Cygwin's console-based terminal.

> Console2 apparently uses a polling interface over a captive invisible
> console to fool programs into thinking that they are running in a real
> Windows console.

It accesses the console's screen contents through Win32's 
GetConsoleScreenBufferInfo() and displays it in its own window while 
hiding the actual console. I can't see a way to combine this sort of 
approach with ptys.

> On further reflection, I think that the fact that mintty uses cygwin
> ptys may be a show stopper as far as making it the default is concerned.
> I don't think we can have the default command line interface misbehave
> when it runs some standard Windows programs, like, if memory serves, the
> "NET" command in some cases.

As things stand, it's a choice between full support either for Windows 
console applications or for Unix terminal applications. I'd guess that 
the latter is more important to most Cygwin users. Not my call though.

> Also, the mouse behavior isn't like xterm or xterm imitators so it
> wouldn't necessarily be intuitive for someone coming over from linux.
> I'm sure that could be changed though.  Did I miss a configuration
> for mouse and cut/paste behavior?

Middle-click paste is always available, and copy-on-select and 
right-click extend can be enabled on the Mouse page of the options. (In 
the latter case, the menu is still available via Shift-right-click and 
the context menu key. The options can also be found in the window menu.)

> I still think it would be a nice addition to the list of Cygwin
> packages.  It gets my +1 vote.

Thanks!

> Oh, and if you want to get rid of the console window when mintty is
> started from a bat file, I think FreeConsole() would do the trick.

I'll give that a try. Perhaps I should make it a command line option if 
I can get it to work?

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 10:10:33PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I finally played around with this a little.  It is nice.   It reminds
>> me a little bit of Console2 - http://console.sourceforge.net/.
>> One thing that Console2 does is provide a true "console" interface which
>> doesn't rely on anything like Cygwin's ptys.  
>
> On the other hand, it isn't actually a terminal emulator as such. What it 
> does do is to put a nicer interface on the Windows console, so for Cygwin 
> programs you still get Cygwin's console-based terminal.

That's what I meant by the "console" interface.

>>Console2 apparently uses a polling interface over a captive invisible
>>console to fool programs into thinking that they are running in a real
>>Windows console.
>
>It accesses the console's screen contents through Win32's
>GetConsoleScreenBufferInfo() and displays it in its own window while
>hiding the actual console.  I can't see a way to combine this sort of
>approach with ptys.

If you have a captured interface then a windows console could be treated
like a pty.  Getting more than one of these per process would be tricky
though and it might not be capable of being a general pty interface.

>>On further reflection, I think that the fact that mintty uses cygwin
>>ptys may be a show stopper as far as making it the default is
>>concerned.  I don't think we can have the default command line
>>interface misbehave when it runs some standard Windows programs, like,
>>if memory serves, the "NET" command in some cases.
>
>As things stand, it's a choice between full support either for Windows
>console applications or for Unix terminal applications.  I'd guess that
>the latter is more important to most Cygwin users.  Not my call though.

The fact that windows apps don't like cygwin ptys is why we never made
rxvt the standard interface.  What would be nice is to give the user
some easy way to decide which they want.  We would, of course, still get
people complaining about whichever choice they made, though.

>>Also, the mouse behavior isn't like xterm or xterm imitators so it
>>wouldn't necessarily be intuitive for someone coming over from linux.
>>I'm sure that could be changed though.  Did I miss a configuration for
>>mouse and cut/paste behavior?
>
>Middle-click paste is always available, and copy-on-select and
>right-click extend can be enabled on the Mouse page of the options.
>(In the latter case, the menu is still available via Shift-right-click
>and the context menu key.  The options can also be found in the window
>menu.)

Yeah, sorry.  I found out after I sent the email that I'd previously
installed some "nifty" software (Microsoft's intellipoint) which was
interfering with my mouse clicks.  Middle-click wasn't working right.
Now it is.

>>Oh, and if you want to get rid of the console window when mintty is
>>started from a bat file, I think FreeConsole() would do the trick.
>
>I'll give that a try.  Perhaps I should make it a command line option
>if I can get it to work?

Maybe.  On further thought, it's possible that FreeConsole won't do
the trick either.  A combination of FreeConsole + restarting the
process with CreateProcess might be needed.  Maybe it isn't worth
the effort.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> It accesses the console's screen contents through Win32's
>> GetConsoleScreenBufferInfo() and displays it in its own window while
>> hiding the actual console.  I can't see a way to combine this sort of
>> approach with ptys.
> 
> If you have a captured interface then a windows console could be treated
> like a pty.

I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Isn't this 
what the cygwin terminal is doing already? I see a WriteConsoleOutput 
call in fhandler_console.cc, which manipulates the console screen 
content directly.

> The fact that windows apps don't like cygwin ptys is why we never made
> rxvt the standard interface.  What would be nice is to give the user
> some easy way to decide which they want.  We would, of course, still get
> people complaining about whichever choice they made, though.

Agreed. :)


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RE: MinTTY

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

Hi Barry,

> From: Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]
> 
> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:26 AM:
> > 5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.
> > 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should 
> whip one up 
> > for you?
> 
> Just curious:  Why does this need "a regular Windows 
> installer"?

On further attention-paying I guess it doesn't.  I was thinking this wasn't
a Cygwin-DLL-linked program, but it is.

>  Why not make this a cygwin package?  (I suppose 
> this goes for PuTTYcyg et al.)
> 

Looks like that's well underway.

> - Barry
 

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 



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RE: MinTTY

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: Gary R. Van Sickle
> 
> Hey Andy,
> 
> After a thorough 2-minute evaluation, I can give you the 
> following feedback:
> 
> 1.  Good work.
> 2.  Super fast.
> 3.  Cut and paste in a Unixoid terminal for Cygwin finally 
> conforms to Windows norms (AKA "The One True Way").  That 
> alone is worth it.
> 4.  I wasn't getting color from ls, but that appears to be a 
> termcap/terminfo/wrong-bash-invocation issue, as your 
> screenshots clearly show color support.
> 5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.
> 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip 
> one up for you?
> 
> This will likely become my default terminal unless a more 
> thorough evaluation turns up some showstopper.  Excellent work!

Ok, more feedback after some more extensive use:

- Yeah, the no color thing was solved by putting the standard "bash --login
-i" on the shortcut's command line.  That would be a nice one to have in the
configuration dialogs, but I don't see how you avoid the registry in that
case.  Maybe just going with "bash --login -i" as the default if you don't
tell it otherwise would be a 90% solution.  I don't recall what Setup.exe's
Shortcut capabilities are, but if it's capable enough, the setup package
could tack that on the end when it generates a shortcut for it.
- The ability to configure it via dialogs, especially such 21st century
things as fg/bg/cursor colors and the font and point size to use, is most
excellent and most welcome.
- From the web page: "Mousewheel events can be sent as arrow keys. (This
allows mousewheel scrolling e.g. in less.)"  All I get is dings, and I don't
see any documentation as to how to set this up.
- OMG FULL-SCREEN MODE!  Where we're going, we don't need roads!  Dude, if
you tell me that it uses DirectX and a multi-hundred-dollar video card to
throw up a full-screen 80x24 text interface I will laugh for a week ;-)!
- I don't know if this is good, bad, ugly, or indifferent, but:

	Urxvt:
	$ set | grep TERM
	COLORTERM=rxvt-xpm
	TERM=rxvt-unicode

	Native Windows console:
	$ set | grep TERM
	TERM=cygwin

	MinTTY:
	$ set | grep TERM
	TERM=xterm


Suggestions:

- It should default to "Show scrollbar" being on.  For a while there I
thought I didn't have a scrollback buffer.
- The default Lucida 9-point seems rather too small to me.  Now, my eyes are
no spring chickens anymore, but even so, I think 12 point would be a better
default.
- When you open the Options dialog, it takes two clicks to select one of the
option catagories in the tree pane on the left, as if the first is getting
ignored for some reason.
- It doesn't handle resizing correctly.  I.e., with my urxvt-X.exe+Xwin
setup, if I do "echo $PATH" (which goes way over 80 chars) and then I resize
the window, the previously-printed path gets re-layed-out to fill the entire
client area.  With MinTTY, that doesn't happen.  No relayout happens on
either increasing or decreasing the window width (and hence the number of
columns).  Subsequently printed output does however take the new number of
columns into account.  To me, this is the most significant issue I've seen
so far.
- I don't see a config option to set the number of lines of scrollback
buffer.  Whatever it is defaulting to seems like plenty, but it would be
nice to have that in the config dialogs.


Verdict:

I think everyone would win if this replaced the default Cygwin console-based
terminal, even as-is.  Just the reasonable copy/paste behavior and the
ability to resize the window by sensical means close the deal in my book.
Again Andy, good work.

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle


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Re: MinTTY

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> - Yeah, the no color thing was solved by putting the standard "bash --login
> -i" on the shortcut's command line.  That would be a nice one to have in the
> configuration dialogs, but I don't see how you avoid the registry in that
> case.  Maybe just going with "bash --login -i" as the default if you don't
> tell it otherwise would be a 90% solution.  I don't recall what Setup.exe's
> Shortcut capabilities are, but if it's capable enough, the setup package
> could tack that on the end when it generates a shortcut for it.

Nothing to do with setup.exe; this is done with a mkshortcut(1) call in
the postinstall script, as I did in Ports SVN.


Yaakov

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:

> -i" on the shortcut's command line.  That would be a nice one to have in the
> configuration dialogs, but I don't see how you avoid the registry in that
> case.  Maybe just going with "bash --login -i" as the default if you don't
> tell it otherwise would be a 90% solution.  

MinTTY's current behaviour is the same as rxvt's and xterm's, and I 
think it makes sense not to execute the profile when starting a new 
terminal from within an existing session using just 'rxvt&' or 'mintty&'.

> I don't recall what Setup.exe's
> Shortcut capabilities are, but if it's capable enough, the setup package
> could tack that on the end when it generates a shortcut for it.

That's definitely the way to go.

> - The ability to configure it via dialogs, especially such 21st century
> things as fg/bg/cursor colors and the font and point size to use, is most
> excellent and most welcome.

:)

> - From the web page: "Mousewheel events can be sent as arrow keys. (This
> allows mousewheel scrolling e.g. in less.)"  All I get is dings, and I don't
> see any documentation as to how to set this up.

Yep, unfortunately no docs yet. (Issue 2.)

When on the alternate screen and not in application mouse mode, 
mousewheel-up/down sends arrow-up/down combined with the scroll modifier 
configured under Keys, so with the default Shift you get ^[[1;2A and 
^[[1;2B. (Replace the 2 with 3 for Alt or 5 for Ctrl).

The thinking behind that is that this replaces the terminal scrollback 
when on the alternate screen, and that plain arrows mean cursor movement 
rather than scrolling. And a word of warning: the feature doesn't work 
in Vista when the scrollbar is shown. Looks like the inactive scrollbar 
is swallowing the mousewheel events.

Activate mousewheel scrolling in 'less' with the following two lines in 
your .lesskey file. Don't forget to run 'lesskey' to compile it into 
less's internal format.

\eO1;2A back-line
\eO1;2B forw-line

Btw, it's 'O' rather than '[' here, because 'less' switches into 
"application cursor key" mode. (Yep, the world of terminals is full of 
fascinating yet strangely pointless details like that.)

> - OMG FULL-SCREEN MODE!  Where we're going, we don't need roads!  Dude, if
> you tell me that it uses DirectX and a multi-hundred-dollar video card to
> throw up a full-screen 80x24 text interface I will laugh for a week ;-)!

Don't worry, it's plain ol' Win32. Another goodie from PuTTY. Combine 
fullscreen with transparency and an auto-hiding taskbar for maximum geek 
cred. :)

> 	MinTTY:
> 	$ set | grep TERM
> 	TERM=xterm

The proper thing to do would be to set TERM to "mintty", but that would 
require termcap and terminfo entries. I guess that might be worth 
considering for a MinTTY package, although iirc KDE's Konsole and 
GNOME's terminal also just set it to "xterm", because like MinTTY they 
aim to be compatible with (the default config of) xterm. Would make life 
easier for everyone to settle on that as a standard.

> - It should default to "Show scrollbar" being on.  For a while there I
> thought I didn't have a scrollback buffer.

Agreed, switching it off by default took the minimalism a bit too far. 
Issue 19.

> - The default Lucida 9-point seems rather too small to me.  Now, my eyes are
> no spring chickens anymore, but even so, I think 12 point would be a better
> default.

I'd realised that before seeing your mail and already increased it to 
10point in 0.3.1. That's also the default in PuTTY and Windows Notepad, 
and pretty similar in size to the bitmap font in the Windows console. 
Obviously matter of personal preference though, hence the option. (No 
kidding.)

> - When you open the Options dialog, it takes two clicks to select one of the
> option catagories in the tree pane on the left, as if the first is getting
> ignored for some reason.

Ah yes, I never did get round to investigate that one. Issue 20.

> - It doesn't handle resizing correctly.  I.e., with my urxvt-X.exe+Xwin
> setup, if I do "echo $PATH" (which goes way over 80 chars) and then I resize
> the window, the previously-printed path gets re-layed-out to fill the entire
> client area.  With MinTTY, that doesn't happen.  No relayout happens on
> either increasing or decreasing the window width (and hence the number of
> columns).  Subsequently printed output does however take the new number of
> columns into account.  To me, this is the most significant issue I've seen
> so far.

Plain rxvt and xterm do the same, and it would be quite a big and risky 
change in code I don't know much about to implement relayouting.

Simon Tatham has a PuTTY wish for an apparently simpler version of this:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/wishlist/resize-no-truncate.html

(Btw, resizes are signalled to applications, so relayouting does work in 
apps that handle that signal, e.g. less.)

> - I don't see a config option to set the number of lines of scrollback
> buffer.  Whatever it is defaulting to seems like plenty, but it would be
> nice to have that in the config dialogs.

I've rather arbitrarily fixed it to 16k. Another one for the docs. I 
can't really see the point in making this a config dialog option though. 
Perhaps a config-file-only option?

 > Again Andy, good work.

Thank you very much for your encouraging and comprehensive feedback!

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> Hmm, looks very interesting, I'll give it a try and report back to the
> class.  I've been looking for a replacement for my preferred terminal
> emulator, MedicineTTY, for quite some time. ;-)

Each to their own. I actually prefer PeaTTY.

> 1.  Good work.

Thanks!

> 2.  Super fast.

That's entirely due to Simon Tatham's excellent PuTTY code. PuTTYcyg,
which has a different pty backend with a separate helper process, is
just as fast.

> 3.  Cut and paste in a Unixoid terminal for Cygwin finally conforms to
> Windows norms (AKA "The One True Way").  That alone is worth it.

Careful, I think you might be a bit controversial there. :)

> 4.  I wasn't getting color from ls, but that appears to be a
> termcap/terminfo/wrong-bash-invocation issue, as your screenshots clearly
> show color support.

Yep, that sounds like a bash invocation issue. If no command is provided
on the command line, mintty invokes the current user's default shell
from /etc/passwd without additional options, i.e. not as a login shell.
It's the same for rxvt and xterm.

Cygwin's bash scripts are designed for login shells only though, i.e. if
you want a proper setup you'll need to either provide a suitable
/etc/bash.bashrc or ~/.bashrc, or invoke the bash within mintty as a 
login shell:

   mintty bash -l

The shortcut created by create_shortcut.js will do just that.

> 5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.

That does seem a little bit unnecessary when all that's needed is the 
exe, but I suppose that quite a lot of users would appreciate the 
convenience of just double-clicking an installer.

> 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip one up for
> you?

That would be great, since I haven't got a clue about how to do that.
Ideally it would be a .msi that installs just the exe and the readme
into %PROGRAMFILES%\MinTTY and puts a shortcut to the exe directly into
Start Menu\Programs.

Cheers,
Andy

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RE: MinTTY

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

Andy Koppe wrote on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:49 PM:
> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
>> 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip one up
>> for you?
>
> That would be great, since I haven't got a clue about how to do that.
> Ideally it would be a .msi that installs just the exe and the readme
> into %PROGRAMFILES%\MinTTY and puts a shortcut to the exe directly
> into Start Menu\Programs.

Please don't make this the only way to install this.  Some of us (e.g.,
yours truly) do not have permissions that allow installation into
%PROGRAMFILES%.  And although I haven't tried it since that directory
became restricted, I suspect that I no longer have permission to
"execute" .msi files.

In part, that's why I asked about making it a cygwin package.  I know
that I can install *them*.  But if one *must* use a windows installer,
please make it possible to customize the installation.  And be sure
that non-Administrators can install.

<OT>Really, they've been making our computers so secure that I expect
soon they will be unusable; sometimes if seems like the better part of
a minute to get the Start Menu to pop up!  I can't wait for them to
figure out that the only truly secure computer is one with no network
access, no removable disks, and a blank hard disk.  But I digress.</OT>

I know that discussion has already started on making MinTTY a cygwin
package so this post is, in many ways, a waste of bandwidth.  But I
thought I'd post anyway, in case efforts veer back towards a Windows
installer.  I thank you for your patience and tolerance.

Unrelated:  I apologize for having mentioned PuTTYcyg and started that
fork of this thread.  It's not like I use it or really care.

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] wrote:
 >> Ideally it would be a .msi that installs just the exe and the readme
 >> into %PROGRAMFILES%\MinTTY and puts a shortcut to the exe directly
 >> into Start Menu\Programs.
 >
 > Please don't make this the only way to install this.  Some of us (e.g.,
 > yours truly) do not have permissions that allow installation into
 > %PROGRAMFILES%.

Rest assured that I certainly wouldn't want to make an installer the 
only option (and any installer ought to offer a choice of installation 
directory anyway). But as you say, this is now a moot question as Gary 
has taken the option off the table and Yaakov has started work on a 
Cygwin package.

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Just a quick note to say I've uploaded release 0.3.1 of MinTTY. It fixes 
broken non-ASCII output, increases the default font size to 10, and adds 
a couple of easy enhancements: support for accelerator keys in the 
options dialog and the option to switch off transparency when the window 
has the focus.

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

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Andy Koppe wrote:
> Just a quick note to say I've uploaded release 0.3.1 of MinTTY. It fixes
> broken non-ASCII output, increases the default font size to 10, and adds
> a couple of easy enhancements: support for accelerator keys in the
> options dialog and the option to switch off transparency when the window
> has the focus.

I updated Ports SVN accordingly.  I hope you will consider maintaining
this as a Cygwin package; cygport really makes this easy.


Yaakov

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