MinTTY

MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Hi,

I'd like to introduce "MinTTY", a terminal emulator for Cygwin that I've 
been working on for a while. It is based on the terminal emulation and 
Windows frontend parts of PuTTY 0.60 by Simon Tatham and his team.

Unlike PuTTYcyg, MinTTY discards PuTTY's networking functions, which are 
already convered by Cygwin's ssh and telnet packages. This results in 
simpler configuration, a leaner interface and small code size. MinTTY's 
most obvious difference to rxvt is its native Windows interface and 
configuration dialog.

More info, as well as the latest sources and binary can be found on the 
project page:

   http://code.google.com/p/mintty

The MinTTY discussion group can be found at:

   http://groups.google.com/group/mintty-discuss

I hope you'll give MinTTY a try, and I'm looking forward to feedback and 
questions. Bug reports and feature requests can be sent via the issue 
tracker on the project page.

Regards,
Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Reini Urban]

2008/12/29 Andy Koppe:
> I'd like to introduce "MinTTY", a terminal emulator for Cygwin that I've
> been working on for a while. It is based on the terminal emulation and
> Windows frontend parts of PuTTY 0.60 by Simon Tatham and his team.
>
> Unlike PuTTYcyg, MinTTY discards PuTTY's networking functions, which are
> already convered by Cygwin's ssh and telnet packages. This results in
> simpler configuration, a leaner interface and small code size. MinTTY's most
> obvious difference to rxvt is its native Windows interface and configuration
> dialog.

Transparency in XP! Good.

Line cursor: hmm.

Speed: Fastest.

Thanks!
-- 
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.org/              http://murbreak.at/

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Re: MinTTY

[Charles Wilson]

> 2008/12/29 Andy Koppe:
>> Unlike PuTTYcyg, MinTTY discards PuTTY's networking functions, which are
>> already convered by Cygwin's ssh and telnet packages. This results in
>> simpler configuration, a leaner interface and small code size. MinTTY's most
>> obvious difference to rxvt is its native Windows interface and configuration
>> dialog.

Me likey. It will be interesting to play with the codepage support
(already present, apparently) in this terminal -- perhaps UTF-8 +
cygwin-1.7...

The obvious similarity between MinTTY and rxvt is that both use pty
emulation to communicate with the inferior, which can sometimes cause
issues when running "native" (e.g. non-cygwin) applications. But, that's
not a /defect/, per se, just something that users should be aware of.

This looks like a great addition to the cygwin-related toolbox. I look
forward to seeing where you go with this in the future.

Reini Urban wrote:
> Line cursor: hmm.
Changeable in options dialog.

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cygwin/rxvt "maintainer"

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Reini Urban wrote:

> Transparency in XP! Good.

That's only a matter of a couple of function calls actually. 
Unfortunately though it applies to the window as a whole, not just to 
the background. Per-pixel alpha can be done, but only at the cost of 
painting all the window decoration manually, so that's not going to 
happen. It might be more feasible in Vista though.

> Line cursor: hmm.

Sorry 'bout that. I tried to stick to both Windows and X conventions, 
but where they clashed I generally went with Windows-style defaults, for 
consistency with the rest of the system.

The following settings will give you something more Xish:
   - Looks:
       Cursor: Block
       Enable cursor blinking: off
   - Mouse:
       Right click action: Extend
       Copy on select: on

> Speed: Fastest.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Charles Wilson wrote:

> It will be interesting to play with the codepage support
> (already present, apparently) in this terminal -- perhaps UTF-8 +
> cygwin-1.7...

That would be interesting indeed, and hopefully I haven't broken any of 
PuTTY's Unicode support. Just set the codepage to UTF-8 to try (assuming 
MinTTY compiles and runs on 1.7, which I haven't yet tried).

Is there an overview somewhere about the Unicode features in cygwin-1.7?

> The obvious similarity between MinTTY and rxvt is that both use pty
> emulation to communicate with the inferior, which can sometimes cause
> issues when running "native" (e.g. non-cygwin) applications. But, that's
> not a /defect/, per se, just something that users should be aware of.

Good point. I should mention that on the project page.

> This looks like a great addition to the cygwin-related toolbox. I look
> forward to seeing where you go with this in the future.

First off, documentation. :)

Thanks,
Andy


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RE: MinTTY

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

Hmm, looks very interesting, I'll give it a try and report back to the
class.  I've been looking for a replacement for my preferred terminal
emulator, MedicineTTY, for quite some time. ;-)

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 

> From: Andy Koppe
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'd like to introduce "MinTTY", a terminal emulator for 
> Cygwin that I've been working on for a while. It is based on 
> the terminal emulation and Windows frontend parts of PuTTY 
> 0.60 by Simon Tatham and his team.
> 
> Unlike PuTTYcyg, MinTTY discards PuTTY's networking 
> functions, which are already convered by Cygwin's ssh and 
> telnet packages. This results in simpler configuration, a 
> leaner interface and small code size. MinTTY's most obvious 
> difference to rxvt is its native Windows interface and 
> configuration dialog.
> 
> More info, as well as the latest sources and binary can be 
> found on the project page:
> 
>    http://code.google.com/p/mintty
> 
> The MinTTY discussion group can be found at:
> 
>    http://groups.google.com/group/mintty-discuss
> 
> I hope you'll give MinTTY a try, and I'm looking forward to 
> feedback and questions. Bug reports and feature requests can 
> be sent via the issue tracker on the project page.
> 
> Regards,
> Andy
> 


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RE: MinTTY

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

Hey Andy,

After a thorough 2-minute evaluation, I can give you the following feedback:

1.  Good work.
2.  Super fast.
3.  Cut and paste in a Unixoid terminal for Cygwin finally conforms to
Windows norms (AKA "The One True Way").  That alone is worth it.
4.  I wasn't getting color from ls, but that appears to be a
termcap/terminfo/wrong-bash-invocation issue, as your screenshots clearly
show color support.
5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.
5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip one up for
you?

This will likely become my default terminal unless a more thorough
evaluation turns up some showstopper.  Excellent work!

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 

> From: Gary R. Van Sickle
> 
> Hmm, looks very interesting, I'll give it a try and report 
> back to the class.  I've been looking for a replacement for 
> my preferred terminal emulator, MedicineTTY, for quite some time. ;-)
> 
> --
> Gary R. Van Sickle
>  
> 
> > From: Andy Koppe
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I'd like to introduce "MinTTY", a terminal emulator for 
> > Cygwin that I've been working on for a while. It is based on 
> > the terminal emulation and Windows frontend parts of PuTTY 
> > 0.60 by Simon Tatham and his team.
> > 
> > Unlike PuTTYcyg, MinTTY discards PuTTY's networking 
> > functions, which are already convered by Cygwin's ssh and 
> > telnet packages. This results in simpler configuration, a 
> > leaner interface and small code size. MinTTY's most obvious 
> > difference to rxvt is its native Windows interface and 
> > configuration dialog.
> > 
> > More info, as well as the latest sources and binary can be 
> > found on the project page:
> > 
> >    http://code.google.com/p/mintty
> > 
> > The MinTTY discussion group can be found at:
> > 
> >    http://groups.google.com/group/mintty-discuss
> > 
> > I hope you'll give MinTTY a try, and I'm looking forward to 
> > feedback and questions. Bug reports and feature requests can 
> > be sent via the issue tracker on the project page.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Andy
> > 


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Re: MinTTY

[Robert Pendell]

Andy Koppe wrote:
> Charles Wilson wrote:
> 
>> It will be interesting to play with the codepage support
>> (already present, apparently) in this terminal -- perhaps UTF-8 +
>> cygwin-1.7...
> 
> That would be interesting indeed, and hopefully I haven't broken any of
> PuTTY's Unicode support. Just set the codepage to UTF-8 to try (assuming
> MinTTY compiles and runs on 1.7, which I haven't yet tried).

It runs on 1.7 but does not appear to execute the shell as a login one.
 I use bash and .bash_profile never gets executed when using MinTTY
directly.  I can help you debug it if you wish.

> 
> Is there an overview somewhere about the Unicode features in cygwin-1.7?
> 
>> The obvious similarity between MinTTY and rxvt is that both use pty
>> emulation to communicate with the inferior, which can sometimes cause
>> issues when running "native" (e.g. non-cygwin) applications. But, that's
>> not a /defect/, per se, just something that users should be aware of.
> 
> Good point. I should mention that on the project page.
> 
>> This looks like a great addition to the cygwin-related toolbox. I look
>> forward to seeing where you go with this in the future.
> 
> First off, documentation. :)
> 
> Thanks,
> Andy
> 

Beyond that one little bit you did a great job otherwise.

The create_shortcut.js script is assuming a 1.5 setup by searching for
and parsing the 1.5 registry keys which may or may not exist on a 1.7
setup.  While I can setup this myself manually (I actually already did)
it may be a good idea to check out the /etc/fstab file format and parse
that.  The starter dir will be located at HKLM\SOFTWARE\Cygwin\setup
with the parameter 'rootdir'.  It is a string dir.  There is no trailing
slash on my install here.

BTW, If anyone is having trouble running the script the below command
will allow you to run it regardless.  .js is also associated with
JavaScript and not just JScript.  I had .js associated to Notepad+ on my
system so it wasn't just a double-click and go.  Maybe re-write the
script as VBScript instead?

In a command prompt with the location of the file as the current dir
(e.g. if the file is on your desktop then %USERPROFILE%\Desktop should
be your current dir)
cscript //E:JScript desktop_shortcut.js

You may replace cscript with wscript if you want window popups instead.


-- 
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shinji@elite-systems.org

"A perfect world is one of chaos."

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RE: MinTTY

[Arun Biyani]

Very Good.

On the options dialog box, an apply button would be a good
Addition.

Arun

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RE: MinTTY

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:26 AM:
> 5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.
> 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip one up
> for you?

Just curious:  Why does this need "a regular Windows installer"?  Why not
make this a cygwin package?  (I suppose this goes for PuTTYcyg et al.)

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 10:58:15AM -0500, Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] wrote:
>Gary R. Van Sickle wrote on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:26 AM:
>> 5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.
>> 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip one up
>> for you?
>
>Just curious:  Why does this need "a regular Windows installer"?  Why not
>make this a cygwin package?  (I suppose this goes for PuTTYcyg et al.)

I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
would get enough votes.  In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
I think that would alleviate a lot of confusion.

Puttycyg is a different story.  I don't really feel comfortable having
another ssh implementation in Cygwin.  The call is obviously Corinna's in
this case but that's my 2c.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Robert Pendell]

Robert Pendell wrote:
> It runs on 1.7 but does not appear to execute the shell as a login one.
>  I use bash and .bash_profile never gets executed when using MinTTY
> directly.  I can help you debug it if you wish.
> 

I stand corrected here.  I checked some more.  The batch script (which I
forgot that I used the cygwin default one) runs bash automatically with
'--login -i' appended to it.  I also found that you can run a command
when mintty runs as the shell.  I modified cygwin.bat to execute mintty.
 Looks like mintty doesn't detach completely on it's own so I appended
'start' to the beginning to it.  The program will continue to run but
the black box will disappear.  If start doesn't work then use 'cygstart'
instead as that one is supplied by cygwin.  Basically the last line of
cygwin.bat was changed to show as...

start mintty bash --login -i

;)


-- 
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shinji@elite-systems.org

"A perfect world is one of chaos."

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> Hmm, looks very interesting, I'll give it a try and report back to the
> class.  I've been looking for a replacement for my preferred terminal
> emulator, MedicineTTY, for quite some time. ;-)

Each to their own. I actually prefer PeaTTY.

> 1.  Good work.

Thanks!

> 2.  Super fast.

That's entirely due to Simon Tatham's excellent PuTTY code. PuTTYcyg,
which has a different pty backend with a separate helper process, is
just as fast.

> 3.  Cut and paste in a Unixoid terminal for Cygwin finally conforms to
> Windows norms (AKA "The One True Way").  That alone is worth it.

Careful, I think you might be a bit controversial there. :)

> 4.  I wasn't getting color from ls, but that appears to be a
> termcap/terminfo/wrong-bash-invocation issue, as your screenshots clearly
> show color support.

Yep, that sounds like a bash invocation issue. If no command is provided
on the command line, mintty invokes the current user's default shell
from /etc/passwd without additional options, i.e. not as a login shell.
It's the same for rxvt and xterm.

Cygwin's bash scripts are designed for login shells only though, i.e. if
you want a proper setup you'll need to either provide a suitable
/etc/bash.bashrc or ~/.bashrc, or invoke the bash within mintty as a 
login shell:

   mintty bash -l

The shortcut created by create_shortcut.js will do just that.

> 5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.

That does seem a little bit unnecessary when all that's needed is the 
exe, but I suppose that quite a lot of users would appreciate the 
convenience of just double-clicking an installer.

> 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip one up for
> you?

That would be great, since I haven't got a clue about how to do that.
Ideally it would be a .msi that installs just the exe and the readme
into %PROGRAMFILES%\MinTTY and puts a shortcut to the exe directly into
Start Menu\Programs.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Robert Pendell wrote:
> I modified cygwin.bat to execute mintty.
> Looks like mintty doesn't detach completely on it's own 

Yep, that's a known issue (number 4 in the issue tracker), and I haven't
yet worked out how to do this properly. I've tried closing files 0
through 3 and doing a setsid(), but that's not sufficient. Hints on how
to detach properly would be much appreciated.

> I appended
> 'start' to the beginning to it.  The program will continue to run but
> the black box will disappear.  If start doesn't work then use 'cygstart'
> instead as that one is supplied by cygwin.  Basically the last line of
> cygwin.bat was changed to show as...
> 
> start mintty bash --login -i

Thanks! That's a good workaround.

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
> would get enough votes.

That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
MinTTY package maintainer?

> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.

I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And 
of course it needs a lot more testing.

Speaking of cygwin.bat, is that actually still needed? I find that bash 
can be invoked more directly through a shortcut, and working directory 
and icon can be set there too. The same works for mintty.

Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
>> would get enough votes.
>
> That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
> requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
> MinTTY package maintainer?
>
>> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
>> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
>
> I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
> the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
> course it needs a lot more testing.

That's always an irritating issue.

> Speaking of cygwin.bat, is that actually still needed? I find that bash can 
> be invoked more directly through a shortcut, and working directory and icon 
> can be set there too. The same works for mintty.

I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin
environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that
with a shortcut is there?

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Warren Young]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> 
> I don't really feel comfortable having
> another ssh implementation in Cygwin.

wget, curl
lftp, ncftp
links, lynx
GraphicsMagic, ImageMagick
ash, bash, tcsh, zsh, scsh, pdksh, posh
vim, nano, emacs, joe, xemacs, nedit, xedit, gvim

....need I go on?

Not that I'm pushing for including a puttycyg package.  You'll just need 
a better justification than that to keep it out.

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Re: MinTTY

[Warren Young]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> 
> I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin
> environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that
> with a shortcut is there?

In this case, it could be one of MinTTY's settings, because it can set 
up the environment before calling bash.

For that matter, MinTTY could also provide GUI access to bash command 
line flags, a way to change the login shell by modifying /etc/passwd, etc.

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Re: MinTTY

[Larry Hall (Cygwin)]

Warren Young wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>
>> I don't really feel comfortable having
>> another ssh implementation in Cygwin.
> 
> wget, curl
> lftp, ncftp
> links, lynx
> GraphicsMagic, ImageMagick
> ash, bash, tcsh, zsh, scsh, pdksh, posh
> vim, nano, emacs, joe, xemacs, nedit, xedit, gvim
> 
> ....need I go on?
> 
> Not that I'm pushing for including a puttycyg package.  You'll just need 
> a better justification than that to keep it out.

What do any of the programs you've listed have to do with ssh?  Certainly
none of these that comprise Cygwin packages have a ssh implementation of
their own as part of the package.  Since this is what Chris was voicing
concern about, I don't see that any of utilities you listed above would
fall into the same category.  I guess you'll have to try harder. ;-)

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_____________________________________________________________________

A: Yes.
 > Q: Are you sure?
 >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
 >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?

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Re: MinTTY

[Warren Young]

Larry Hall (Cygwin) wrote:
> 
> What do any of the programs you've listed have to do with ssh?  

Not a thing.

But if we can't tolerate two ssh implementations, why can we tolerate 
two command line web page fetchers?  Or two FTP clients?  Or two web 
clients?  Or two graphics manipulation packages?  Or seven interactive 
command shells?  Or eight text editors?  Or...?

What makes ssh so special that There Can Be Only One?

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:34:52PM -0700, Warren Young wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin
>> environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that
>> with a shortcut is there?
>
> In this case, it could be one of MinTTY's settings, because it can set up 
> the environment before calling bash.
>
> For that matter, MinTTY could also provide GUI access to bash command line 
> flags, a way to change the login shell by modifying /etc/passwd, etc.

It would have to do that since the CYGWIN environment settings have to be
settable by the user.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:32:12PM -0700, Warren Young wrote:
>Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>I don't really feel comfortable having another ssh implementation in
>>Cygwin.  The call is obviously Corinna's in this case but that's my 2c.
>
>wget, curl lftp, ncftp links, lynx GraphicsMagic, ImageMagick ash,
>bash, tcsh, zsh, scsh, pdksh, posh vim, nano, emacs, joe, xemacs,
>nedit, xedit, gvim
>
>....need I go on?
>
>Not that I'm pushing for including a puttycyg package.  You'll just
>need a better justification than that to keep it out.

All of the examples you quoted above are found in standard linux
distributions.  Unlike... you know... "puttycyg".  And, given the
problems we have with end-user ssh confusion now, I don't see any
reason to add another variation.

I was willing to consider MinTTY since people were raving about how nice
it was and I didn't think that Chuck was overly thrilled about
maintaining the windows-only version of rxvt.  I haven't heard that
puttycyg offers superior linux-like ssh functionality to openssh.

But, as I said in the part that you snipped, I was expressing an
opinion.  I would consider this to be Corinna's call.

But, since no one that I can remember has offered puttycyg as a
package the discussion is pretty pointless.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Andy Koppe wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds
>> like it
>> would get enough votes.
> 
> That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission
> requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the
> MinTTY package maintainer?

Usually those who write programs especially for Cygwin are their own
package maintainers, for obvious reasons.  But as this looks quite
interesting, I quickly put together a package for Ports which could get
you started:

http://cygwin-ports.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cygwin-ports/ports/trunk/apps/mintty/

Check out this directory, then use cygport to build it.  If you're new
to cygport, the package README is a must-read.


Yaakov
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iEYEAREIAAYFAklbP7YACgkQpiWmPGlmQSNXkgCfSYweuJxKvTPLezh3uMQJN1iI
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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

> On the options dialog box, an apply button would be a good
> Addition.

Agreed. I've entered issue 12 for this.

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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Andy Koppe (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:00:29 +0000)> 
> Robert Pendell wrote:
> > I modified cygwin.bat to execute mintty.
> > Looks like mintty doesn't detach completely on it's own 
> 
> Yep, that's a known issue (number 4 in the issue tracker), and I haven't
> yet worked out how to do this properly. I've tried closing files 0
> through 3 and doing a setsid(), but that's not sufficient. Hints on how
> to detach properly would be much appreciated.

?? If you run a GUI application from a batch file on the NT family, the 
batch file will not close until the GUI app is closed. So this behaviour 
of mintty is not an "issue" but completely normal.

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Robert Pendell (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:21:40 -0500)> 
> Robert Pendell wrote:
> > It runs on 1.7 but does not appear to execute the shell as a login one.
> >  I use bash and .bash_profile never gets executed when using MinTTY
> > directly.  I can help you debug it if you wish.
> 
> I stand corrected here.  I checked some more.  The batch script (which I
> forgot that I used the cygwin default one) runs bash automatically with
> '--login -i' appended to it.  I also found that you can run a command
> when mintty runs as the shell.  I modified cygwin.bat to execute mintty.
>  Looks like mintty doesn't detach completely on it's own so I appended
> 'start' to the beginning to it.  The program will continue to run but
> the black box will disappear.  If start doesn't work then use 'cygstart'
> instead as that one is supplied by cygwin.  Basically the last line of
> cygwin.bat was changed to show as...
> 
> start mintty bash --login -i

If you don't want a Windows console terminal then running or modifying 
the Cygwin batch file is completely pointless. Simply create a shortcut 
as described in the Readme: "Create a shortcut to mintty.exe with the 
working directory set to the Cygwin bin directory. The 
create_shortcut.js script will do this for you.".

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Christopher Faylor (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:05:35 -0500)> 
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
> >> would get enough votes.
> >
> > That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
> > requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
> > MinTTY package maintainer?
> >
> >> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
> >> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
> >
> > I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
> > the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
> > course it needs a lot more testing.
> 
> That's always an irritating issue.

?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
"old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
use "start".
 
> > Speaking of cygwin.bat, is that actually still needed? I find that bash can 
> > be invoked more directly through a shortcut, and working directory and icon 
> > can be set there too. The same works for mintty.
> 
> I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin
> environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that
> with a shortcut is there?

Not just for the shortcut. Windows has a GUI setting for user and system 
variables (which is quite lenthy to access).

Thorsten


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RE: MinTTY

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

Hi Barry,

> From: Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]
> 
> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:26 AM:
> > 5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.
> > 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should 
> whip one up 
> > for you?
> 
> Just curious:  Why does this need "a regular Windows 
> installer"?

On further attention-paying I guess it doesn't.  I was thinking this wasn't
a Cygwin-DLL-linked program, but it is.

>  Why not make this a cygwin package?  (I suppose 
> this goes for PuTTYcyg et al.)
> 

Looks like that's well underway.

> - Barry
 

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 



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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Christopher Faylor (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 00:43:04 -0500)> 
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:34:52PM -0700, Warren Young wrote:
> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >> I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin
> >> environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that
> >> with a shortcut is there?
> >
> > In this case, it could be one of MinTTY's settings, because it can set up 
> > the environment before calling bash.
> >
> > For that matter, MinTTY could also provide GUI access to bash command line 
> > flags, a way to change the login shell by modifying /etc/passwd, etc.
> 
> It would have to do that since the CYGWIN environment settings have to be
> settable by the user.

They always are (through the GUI). The default Cygwin.bat file does not 
set any enviroment variables, so it is superfluous itself (a shortcut to 
"bash -li" would be better).

Thorsten


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RE: MinTTY

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: Warren Young
> 
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
> > 
> > I think the only reason to use cygwin.bat is to set the cygwin 
> > environment variable before bash starts.  There's no way to do that 
> > with a shortcut is there?
> 
> In this case, it could be one of MinTTY's settings, because 
> it can set up the environment before calling bash.
> 

Yes, but there's the complication of "CYGWIN=" settings that have to be set
before the Cygwin DLL even loads.  I don't know how many of these 1.7 will
obsolete, but it's something that probably requires some cogitation before
implementing.

> For that matter, MinTTY could also provide GUI access to bash 
> command line flags, a way to change the login shell by 
> modifying /etc/passwd, etc.

It could be glorious!  Well, or overachieving ;-).  For me it'd just be
great to have a nice terminal that didn't require an X server and had
Windows native-y configuration and copy/paste.  We'll get to that 21st
century yet!

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle


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RE: MinTTY

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

Andy Koppe wrote on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:49 PM:
> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
>> 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip one up
>> for you?
>
> That would be great, since I haven't got a clue about how to do that.
> Ideally it would be a .msi that installs just the exe and the readme
> into %PROGRAMFILES%\MinTTY and puts a shortcut to the exe directly
> into Start Menu\Programs.

Please don't make this the only way to install this.  Some of us (e.g.,
yours truly) do not have permissions that allow installation into
%PROGRAMFILES%.  And although I haven't tried it since that directory
became restricted, I suspect that I no longer have permission to
"execute" .msi files.

In part, that's why I asked about making it a cygwin package.  I know
that I can install *them*.  But if one *must* use a windows installer,
please make it possible to customize the installation.  And be sure
that non-Administrators can install.

<OT>Really, they've been making our computers so secure that I expect
soon they will be unusable; sometimes if seems like the better part of
a minute to get the Start Menu to pop up!  I can't wait for them to
figure out that the only truly secure computer is one with no network
access, no removable disks, and a blank hard disk.  But I digress.</OT>

I know that discussion has already started on making MinTTY a cygwin
package so this post is, in many ways, a waste of bandwidth.  But I
thought I'd post anyway, in case efforts veer back towards a Windows
installer.  I thank you for your patience and tolerance.

Unrelated:  I apologize for having mentioned PuTTYcyg and started that
fork of this thread.  It's not like I use it or really care.

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.

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Re: MinTTY

[Larry Hall (Cygwin)]

Warren Young wrote:
> Larry Hall (Cygwin) wrote:
>>
>> What do any of the programs you've listed have to do with ssh?  
> 
> Not a thing.
> 
> But if we can't tolerate two ssh implementations, why can we tolerate 
> two command line web page fetchers?  Or two FTP clients?  Or two web 
> clients?  Or two graphics manipulation packages?  Or seven interactive 
> command shells?  Or eight text editors?  Or...?
> 
> What makes ssh so special that There Can Be Only One?

I think Chris has clarified this for you in his response.  Being a long
time reader of this list and witnessing the volume of email about the
current OpenSSH package (I'm not implying any problem with Corinna's
work on this!), I agree with Chris's opinion that it is unlikely to help
if there is yet another Cygwin package with an 'ssh' implementation as
part of it.  To me, at least, that's what makes 'ssh' so special.

-- 
Larry Hall                              http://www.rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
216 Dalton Rd.                          (508) 893-9889 - FAX
Holliston, MA 01746

_____________________________________________________________________

A: Yes.
 > Q: Are you sure?
 >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
 >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>* Christopher Faylor (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:05:35 -0500)> 
>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
>> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> >> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
>> >> would get enough votes.
>> >
>> > That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
>> > requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
>> > MinTTY package maintainer?
>> >
>> >> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
>> >> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
>> >
>> > I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
>> > the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
>> > course it needs a lot more testing.
>> 
>> That's always an irritating issue.
>
>?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
>then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
>would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
>"old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
>use "start".

How does any of the above make this non-irritating?

cgf 

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> ?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
> then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
> would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
> "old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
> use "start".

You've convinced me. Issue 4 closed as "WontFix". Thanks!

> Windows has a GUI setting for user and system 
> variables (which is quite lenthy to access).

I couldn't find a user side GUI setting, although the registry key is in
a pretty obvious place: HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Environment

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] wrote:
 >> Ideally it would be a .msi that installs just the exe and the readme
 >> into %PROGRAMFILES%\MinTTY and puts a shortcut to the exe directly
 >> into Start Menu\Programs.
 >
 > Please don't make this the only way to install this.  Some of us (e.g.,
 > yours truly) do not have permissions that allow installation into
 > %PROGRAMFILES%.

Rest assured that I certainly wouldn't want to make an installer the 
only option (and any installer ought to offer a choice of installation 
directory anyway). But as you say, this is now a moot question as Gary 
has taken the option off the table and Yaakov has started work on a 
Cygwin package.

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> Andy Koppe wrote:
>> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds
>>> like it
>>> would get enough votes.
>> That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission
>> requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the
>> MinTTY package maintainer?
> 
> Usually those who write programs especially for Cygwin are their own
> package maintainers, for obvious reasons.  But as this looks quite
> interesting, I quickly put together a package for Ports which could get
> you started:
> 
> http://cygwin-ports.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cygwin-ports/ports/trunk/apps/mintty/
> 
> Check out this directory, then use cygport to build it.  If you're new
> to cygport, the package README is a must-read.

Thank you very much! Yep, I'm entirely new to this, so what with those 
pesky New Year festivities taking away valuable hacking time it might be 
a little while to familiarise myself with this packaging lark. :)

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:

> Yes, but there's the complication of "CYGWIN=" settings that have to be set
> before the Cygwin DLL even loads.  

Thanks for pointing that out.

>> For that matter, MinTTY could also provide GUI access to bash 
>> command line flags, a way to change the login shell by 
>> modifying /etc/passwd, etc.
> 
> It could be glorious!  Well, or overachieving ;-).

Yep, I'd rather stick to core functionality. Well ok, and just a little
helping of pointless eye candy. :)

Bash options can already be set on the command line passed to mintty, or
of course within bash itself. If there was special support for bash in
the terminal, than why not for tcsh, zsh, vi, emacs, ...

Andy

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RE: MinTTY

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

Thorsten Kampe wrote on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:40 AM:
> you have to use "start".

Or "cygstart.exe"?

> Windows has a GUI setting for user and system variables (which is
> quite lenthy to access).

Start Menu =>
  Settings =>
    Control Panel =>
      System (applet) =>
        Advanced (tab) =>
          Environment Variables (button) =>
            New (button)

Though it's not short, "quite lengthy" sounds longer than I find it
in practice.

Though it might be nice if setup.exe had a button that opened a
dialog to set %CYGWIN% with all the currently available options as
radio buttons.  (I know: PTC.)  Or since the mount table is moving
from the Registry to a file, maybe in 1.7 %CYGWIN% could be in a
text file.

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.

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RE: MinTTY

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: Gary R. Van Sickle
> 
> Hey Andy,
> 
> After a thorough 2-minute evaluation, I can give you the 
> following feedback:
> 
> 1.  Good work.
> 2.  Super fast.
> 3.  Cut and paste in a Unixoid terminal for Cygwin finally 
> conforms to Windows norms (AKA "The One True Way").  That 
> alone is worth it.
> 4.  I wasn't getting color from ls, but that appears to be a 
> termcap/terminfo/wrong-bash-invocation issue, as your 
> screenshots clearly show color support.
> 5.  It needs a regular Windows installer.
> 5a. I'm good with Windows installers.  You want I should whip 
> one up for you?
> 
> This will likely become my default terminal unless a more 
> thorough evaluation turns up some showstopper.  Excellent work!

Ok, more feedback after some more extensive use:

- Yeah, the no color thing was solved by putting the standard "bash --login
-i" on the shortcut's command line.  That would be a nice one to have in the
configuration dialogs, but I don't see how you avoid the registry in that
case.  Maybe just going with "bash --login -i" as the default if you don't
tell it otherwise would be a 90% solution.  I don't recall what Setup.exe's
Shortcut capabilities are, but if it's capable enough, the setup package
could tack that on the end when it generates a shortcut for it.
- The ability to configure it via dialogs, especially such 21st century
things as fg/bg/cursor colors and the font and point size to use, is most
excellent and most welcome.
- From the web page: "Mousewheel events can be sent as arrow keys. (This
allows mousewheel scrolling e.g. in less.)"  All I get is dings, and I don't
see any documentation as to how to set this up.
- OMG FULL-SCREEN MODE!  Where we're going, we don't need roads!  Dude, if
you tell me that it uses DirectX and a multi-hundred-dollar video card to
throw up a full-screen 80x24 text interface I will laugh for a week ;-)!
- I don't know if this is good, bad, ugly, or indifferent, but:

	Urxvt:
	$ set | grep TERM
	COLORTERM=rxvt-xpm
	TERM=rxvt-unicode

	Native Windows console:
	$ set | grep TERM
	TERM=cygwin

	MinTTY:
	$ set | grep TERM
	TERM=xterm


Suggestions:

- It should default to "Show scrollbar" being on.  For a while there I
thought I didn't have a scrollback buffer.
- The default Lucida 9-point seems rather too small to me.  Now, my eyes are
no spring chickens anymore, but even so, I think 12 point would be a better
default.
- When you open the Options dialog, it takes two clicks to select one of the
option catagories in the tree pane on the left, as if the first is getting
ignored for some reason.
- It doesn't handle resizing correctly.  I.e., with my urxvt-X.exe+Xwin
setup, if I do "echo $PATH" (which goes way over 80 chars) and then I resize
the window, the previously-printed path gets re-layed-out to fill the entire
client area.  With MinTTY, that doesn't happen.  No relayout happens on
either increasing or decreasing the window width (and hence the number of
columns).  Subsequently printed output does however take the new number of
columns into account.  To me, this is the most significant issue I've seen
so far.
- I don't see a config option to set the number of lines of scrollback
buffer.  Whatever it is defaulting to seems like plenty, but it would be
nice to have that in the config dialogs.


Verdict:

I think everyone would win if this replaced the default Cygwin console-based
terminal, even as-is.  Just the reasonable copy/paste behavior and the
ability to resize the window by sensical means close the deal in my book.
Again Andy, good work.

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle


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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Christopher Faylor (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:28:30 -0500)> 
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >* Christopher Faylor (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:05:35 -0500)> 
> >> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> >> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >> >> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
> >> >> would get enough votes.
> >> >
> >> > That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
> >> > requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
> >> > MinTTY package maintainer?
> >> >
> >> >> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
> >> >> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
> >> >
> >> > I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
> >> > the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
> >> > course it needs a lot more testing.
> >> 
> >> That's always an irritating issue.
> >
> >?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
> >then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
> >would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
> >"old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
> >use "start".
> 
> How does any of the above make this non-irritating?

I don't understand the question.

Thorsten


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RE: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:03:48 -0500)> 
> Thorsten Kampe wrote on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:40 AM:
> > you have to use "start".
> 
> Or "cygstart.exe"?

Right. Although there is no real advantage to use that instead of start.
 
> > Windows has a GUI setting for user and system variables (which is
> > quite lenthy to access).
> 
> Start Menu =>
>   Settings =>
>     Control Panel =>
>       System (applet) =>
>         Advanced (tab) =>
>           Environment Variables (button) =>
>             New (button)
> 
> Though it's not short, "quite lengthy" sounds longer than I find it
> in practice.

Okay. Can we say "a little bit lengthy although not as lenghty as 
someone might expect"?

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> - Yeah, the no color thing was solved by putting the standard "bash --login
> -i" on the shortcut's command line.  That would be a nice one to have in the
> configuration dialogs, but I don't see how you avoid the registry in that
> case.  Maybe just going with "bash --login -i" as the default if you don't
> tell it otherwise would be a 90% solution.  I don't recall what Setup.exe's
> Shortcut capabilities are, but if it's capable enough, the setup package
> could tack that on the end when it generates a shortcut for it.

Nothing to do with setup.exe; this is done with a mkshortcut(1) call in
the postinstall script, as I did in Ports SVN.


Yaakov

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Re: MinTTY

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

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Andy Koppe wrote:
> Thank you very much! Yep, I'm entirely new to this, so what with those
> pesky New Year festivities taking away valuable hacking time it might be
> a little while to familiarise myself with this packaging lark. :)

I just simplified the build a bit in SVN, so if you grabbed it before,
you'll want to svn up.


Yaakov
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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 05:30:17PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>* Christopher Faylor (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:28:30 -0500)> 
>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>> >* Christopher Faylor (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:05:35 -0500)> 
>> >> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
>> >> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> >> >> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
>> >> >> would get enough votes.
>> >> >
>> >> > That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
>> >> > requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
>> >> > MinTTY package maintainer?
>> >> >
>> >> >> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
>> >> >> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
>> >> > the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
>> >> > course it needs a lot more testing.
>> >> 
>> >> That's always an irritating issue.
>> >
>> >?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
>> >then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
>> >would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
>> >"old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
>> >use "start".
>> 
>> How does any of the above make this non-irritating?
>
>I don't understand the question.

Then live in ignorance.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Just a quick note to say I've uploaded release 0.3.1 of MinTTY. It fixes 
broken non-ASCII output, increases the default font size to 10, and adds 
a couple of easy enhancements: support for accelerator keys in the 
options dialog and the option to switch off transparency when the window 
has the focus.

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:51:06AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>It sounds like it would get enough votes.  In fact, if it operates like
>an xterm on Windows maybe it should even be the default program that is
>invoked by cygwin.bat.

I finally played around with this a little.  It is nice.   It reminds
me a little bit of Console2 - http://console.sourceforge.net/.

One thing that Console2 does is provide a true "console" interface which
doesn't rely on anything like Cygwin's ptys.  Console2 allows resizing
and customization of mouse behavior.

I've spent a fair amount of time trying to find some way to improve
cygwin's pty behavior so that ptys behave like real windows consoles.
Console2 apparently uses a polling interface over a captive invisible
console to fool programs into thinking that they are running in a real
Windows console.  I don't feel like I should look too closely like this
because Console2 is GPLed and I'd taint my ability to contribute any
code back to Cygwin.

The downside of Console2's method is that the polling causes a little
bit of lagginess in typing, on my system at least.  You don't see that
on mintty even though it is using cygwin's ptys which are not exactly
tuned for performance.

On further reflection, I think that the fact that mintty uses cygwin
ptys may be a show stopper as far as making it the default is concerned.
I don't think we can have the default command line interface misbehave
when it runs some standard Windows programs, like, if memory serves, the
"NET" command in some cases.

Also, the mouse behavior isn't like xterm or xterm imitators so it
wouldn't necessarily be intuitive for someone coming over from linux.
I'm sure that could be changed though.  Did I miss a configuration
for mouse and cut/paste behavior?

I still think it would be a nice addition to the list of Cygwin
packages.  It gets my +1 vote.

Oh, and if you want to get rid of the console window when mintty is
started from a bat file, I think FreeConsole() would do the trick.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Christopher Faylor (Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:16:41 -0500)> 
> On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 05:30:17PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >* Christopher Faylor (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:28:30 -0500)> 
> >> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >> >* Christopher Faylor (Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:05:35 -0500)> 
> >> >> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:44:36PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> >> >> > Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >> >> >> I wouldn't mind making MinTTY a regular cygwin package.  It sounds like it
> >> >> >> would get enough votes.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That would be great. I'll need to read up on the package submission 
> >> >> > requirements and process. Unless someone would like to volunteer as the 
> >> >> > MinTTY package maintainer?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> In fact, if it operates like an xterm on Windows
> >> >> >> maybe it should even be the default program that is invoked by cygwin.bat.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'd certainly like that, although unfortunately MinTTY doesn't quite fit 
> >> >> > the bill yet due to Issue 4 about leaving the console window open. And of 
> >> >> > course it needs a lot more testing.
> >> >> 
> >> >> That's always an irritating issue.
> >> >
> >> >?? That's how Windows Cmd.exe works. If rxvt does something different 
> >> >then it does some magic and it would definitely irritating to me if cmd 
> >> >would /not/ keep a Window open until mintty is closed. If you want the 
> >> >"old" behaviour of the command.com/Windows 9X environment, you have to 
> >> >use "start".
> >> 
> >> How does any of the above make this non-irritating?
> >
> >I don't understand the question.
> 
> Then live in ignorance.

That'll be my fate from now on... Woe is me!

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Andy Koppe wrote:
> Just a quick note to say I've uploaded release 0.3.1 of MinTTY. It fixes
> broken non-ASCII output, increases the default font size to 10, and adds
> a couple of easy enhancements: support for accelerator keys in the
> options dialog and the option to switch off transparency when the window
> has the focus.

I updated Ports SVN accordingly.  I hope you will consider maintaining
this as a Cygwin package; cygport really makes this easy.


Yaakov

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Re: MinTTY

[Reini Urban]

Christopher Faylor schrieb:
> I still think it would be a nice addition to the list of Cygwin
> packages.  It gets my +1 vote.

It has my vote also: +1, if based on Yaakov's cygport, and not the 
current .js mkshortcut helper.

http://cygwin-ports.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cygwin-ports/ports/trunk/apps/mintty/
-- 
Reini

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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 08:07:39PM +0100, Reini Urban wrote:
>Christopher Faylor schrieb:
>>I still think it would be a nice addition to the list of Cygwin
>>packages.  It gets my +1 vote.
>
>It has my vote also: +1, if based on Yaakov's cygport, and not the
>current .js mkshortcut helper.
>
>http://cygwin-ports.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cygwin-ports/ports/trunk/apps/mintty/

I don't think the method used to build from source should have any
bearing on whether the package is accepted.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:

> -i" on the shortcut's command line.  That would be a nice one to have in the
> configuration dialogs, but I don't see how you avoid the registry in that
> case.  Maybe just going with "bash --login -i" as the default if you don't
> tell it otherwise would be a 90% solution.  

MinTTY's current behaviour is the same as rxvt's and xterm's, and I 
think it makes sense not to execute the profile when starting a new 
terminal from within an existing session using just 'rxvt&' or 'mintty&'.

> I don't recall what Setup.exe's
> Shortcut capabilities are, but if it's capable enough, the setup package
> could tack that on the end when it generates a shortcut for it.

That's definitely the way to go.

> - The ability to configure it via dialogs, especially such 21st century
> things as fg/bg/cursor colors and the font and point size to use, is most
> excellent and most welcome.

:)

> - From the web page: "Mousewheel events can be sent as arrow keys. (This
> allows mousewheel scrolling e.g. in less.)"  All I get is dings, and I don't
> see any documentation as to how to set this up.

Yep, unfortunately no docs yet. (Issue 2.)

When on the alternate screen and not in application mouse mode, 
mousewheel-up/down sends arrow-up/down combined with the scroll modifier 
configured under Keys, so with the default Shift you get ^[[1;2A and 
^[[1;2B. (Replace the 2 with 3 for Alt or 5 for Ctrl).

The thinking behind that is that this replaces the terminal scrollback 
when on the alternate screen, and that plain arrows mean cursor movement 
rather than scrolling. And a word of warning: the feature doesn't work 
in Vista when the scrollbar is shown. Looks like the inactive scrollbar 
is swallowing the mousewheel events.

Activate mousewheel scrolling in 'less' with the following two lines in 
your .lesskey file. Don't forget to run 'lesskey' to compile it into 
less's internal format.

\eO1;2A back-line
\eO1;2B forw-line

Btw, it's 'O' rather than '[' here, because 'less' switches into 
"application cursor key" mode. (Yep, the world of terminals is full of 
fascinating yet strangely pointless details like that.)

> - OMG FULL-SCREEN MODE!  Where we're going, we don't need roads!  Dude, if
> you tell me that it uses DirectX and a multi-hundred-dollar video card to
> throw up a full-screen 80x24 text interface I will laugh for a week ;-)!

Don't worry, it's plain ol' Win32. Another goodie from PuTTY. Combine 
fullscreen with transparency and an auto-hiding taskbar for maximum geek 
cred. :)

> 	MinTTY:
> 	$ set | grep TERM
> 	TERM=xterm

The proper thing to do would be to set TERM to "mintty", but that would 
require termcap and terminfo entries. I guess that might be worth 
considering for a MinTTY package, although iirc KDE's Konsole and 
GNOME's terminal also just set it to "xterm", because like MinTTY they 
aim to be compatible with (the default config of) xterm. Would make life 
easier for everyone to settle on that as a standard.

> - It should default to "Show scrollbar" being on.  For a while there I
> thought I didn't have a scrollback buffer.

Agreed, switching it off by default took the minimalism a bit too far. 
Issue 19.

> - The default Lucida 9-point seems rather too small to me.  Now, my eyes are
> no spring chickens anymore, but even so, I think 12 point would be a better
> default.

I'd realised that before seeing your mail and already increased it to 
10point in 0.3.1. That's also the default in PuTTY and Windows Notepad, 
and pretty similar in size to the bitmap font in the Windows console. 
Obviously matter of personal preference though, hence the option. (No 
kidding.)

> - When you open the Options dialog, it takes two clicks to select one of the
> option catagories in the tree pane on the left, as if the first is getting
> ignored for some reason.

Ah yes, I never did get round to investigate that one. Issue 20.

> - It doesn't handle resizing correctly.  I.e., with my urxvt-X.exe+Xwin
> setup, if I do "echo $PATH" (which goes way over 80 chars) and then I resize
> the window, the previously-printed path gets re-layed-out to fill the entire
> client area.  With MinTTY, that doesn't happen.  No relayout happens on
> either increasing or decreasing the window width (and hence the number of
> columns).  Subsequently printed output does however take the new number of
> columns into account.  To me, this is the most significant issue I've seen
> so far.

Plain rxvt and xterm do the same, and it would be quite a big and risky 
change in code I don't know much about to implement relayouting.

Simon Tatham has a PuTTY wish for an apparently simpler version of this:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/wishlist/resize-no-truncate.html

(Btw, resizes are signalled to applications, so relayouting does work in 
apps that handle that signal, e.g. less.)

> - I don't see a config option to set the number of lines of scrollback
> buffer.  Whatever it is defaulting to seems like plenty, but it would be
> nice to have that in the config dialogs.

I've rather arbitrarily fixed it to 16k. Another one for the docs. I 
can't really see the point in making this a config dialog option though. 
Perhaps a config-file-only option?

 > Again Andy, good work.

Thank you very much for your encouraging and comprehensive feedback!

Andy


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RE: MinTTY

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

Thorsten Kampe wrote on Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:37 AM:
> * Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:03:48 -0500)>
>> Thorsten Kampe wrote on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:40 AM:
>>> you have to use "start".
>>
>> Or "cygstart.exe"?
>
> Right. Although there is no real advantage to use that instead of
> start.

On XP there is no start.exe.  (98se )  So you have to use
        cmd /c start

The main advantage of cygstart is that it understands POSIX paths.

I seem to remember that sometimes quoting can be simpler with cygstart
than with `cmd /c start'.

> Okay. Can we say "a little bit lengthy although not as lenghty as
> someone might expect"?

Yes.  :-)

Actually, when I started writing the steps to get at the environmental
variables I was surprised that it was so much longer than I remembered.

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> I finally played around with this a little.  It is nice.   It reminds
> me a little bit of Console2 - http://console.sourceforge.net/.
> 
> One thing that Console2 does is provide a true "console" interface which
> doesn't rely on anything like Cygwin's ptys.  

On the other hand, it isn't actually a terminal emulator as such. What 
it does do is to put a nicer interface on the Windows console, so for 
Cygwin programs you still get Cygwin's console-based terminal.

> Console2 apparently uses a polling interface over a captive invisible
> console to fool programs into thinking that they are running in a real
> Windows console.

It accesses the console's screen contents through Win32's 
GetConsoleScreenBufferInfo() and displays it in its own window while 
hiding the actual console. I can't see a way to combine this sort of 
approach with ptys.

> On further reflection, I think that the fact that mintty uses cygwin
> ptys may be a show stopper as far as making it the default is concerned.
> I don't think we can have the default command line interface misbehave
> when it runs some standard Windows programs, like, if memory serves, the
> "NET" command in some cases.

As things stand, it's a choice between full support either for Windows 
console applications or for Unix terminal applications. I'd guess that 
the latter is more important to most Cygwin users. Not my call though.

> Also, the mouse behavior isn't like xterm or xterm imitators so it
> wouldn't necessarily be intuitive for someone coming over from linux.
> I'm sure that could be changed though.  Did I miss a configuration
> for mouse and cut/paste behavior?

Middle-click paste is always available, and copy-on-select and 
right-click extend can be enabled on the Mouse page of the options. (In 
the latter case, the menu is still available via Shift-right-click and 
the context menu key. The options can also be found in the window menu.)

> I still think it would be a nice addition to the list of Cygwin
> packages.  It gets my +1 vote.

Thanks!

> Oh, and if you want to get rid of the console window when mintty is
> started from a bat file, I think FreeConsole() would do the trick.

I'll give that a try. Perhaps I should make it a command line option if 
I can get it to work?

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 10:10:33PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I finally played around with this a little.  It is nice.   It reminds
>> me a little bit of Console2 - http://console.sourceforge.net/.
>> One thing that Console2 does is provide a true "console" interface which
>> doesn't rely on anything like Cygwin's ptys.  
>
> On the other hand, it isn't actually a terminal emulator as such. What it 
> does do is to put a nicer interface on the Windows console, so for Cygwin 
> programs you still get Cygwin's console-based terminal.

That's what I meant by the "console" interface.

>>Console2 apparently uses a polling interface over a captive invisible
>>console to fool programs into thinking that they are running in a real
>>Windows console.
>
>It accesses the console's screen contents through Win32's
>GetConsoleScreenBufferInfo() and displays it in its own window while
>hiding the actual console.  I can't see a way to combine this sort of
>approach with ptys.

If you have a captured interface then a windows console could be treated
like a pty.  Getting more than one of these per process would be tricky
though and it might not be capable of being a general pty interface.

>>On further reflection, I think that the fact that mintty uses cygwin
>>ptys may be a show stopper as far as making it the default is
>>concerned.  I don't think we can have the default command line
>>interface misbehave when it runs some standard Windows programs, like,
>>if memory serves, the "NET" command in some cases.
>
>As things stand, it's a choice between full support either for Windows
>console applications or for Unix terminal applications.  I'd guess that
>the latter is more important to most Cygwin users.  Not my call though.

The fact that windows apps don't like cygwin ptys is why we never made
rxvt the standard interface.  What would be nice is to give the user
some easy way to decide which they want.  We would, of course, still get
people complaining about whichever choice they made, though.

>>Also, the mouse behavior isn't like xterm or xterm imitators so it
>>wouldn't necessarily be intuitive for someone coming over from linux.
>>I'm sure that could be changed though.  Did I miss a configuration for
>>mouse and cut/paste behavior?
>
>Middle-click paste is always available, and copy-on-select and
>right-click extend can be enabled on the Mouse page of the options.
>(In the latter case, the menu is still available via Shift-right-click
>and the context menu key.  The options can also be found in the window
>menu.)

Yeah, sorry.  I found out after I sent the email that I'd previously
installed some "nifty" software (Microsoft's intellipoint) which was
interfering with my mouse clicks.  Middle-click wasn't working right.
Now it is.

>>Oh, and if you want to get rid of the console window when mintty is
>>started from a bat file, I think FreeConsole() would do the trick.
>
>I'll give that a try.  Perhaps I should make it a command line option
>if I can get it to work?

Maybe.  On further thought, it's possible that FreeConsole won't do
the trick either.  A combination of FreeConsole + restarting the
process with CreateProcess might be needed.  Maybe it isn't worth
the effort.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> It accesses the console's screen contents through Win32's
>> GetConsoleScreenBufferInfo() and displays it in its own window while
>> hiding the actual console.  I can't see a way to combine this sort of
>> approach with ptys.
> 
> If you have a captured interface then a windows console could be treated
> like a pty.

I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Isn't this 
what the cygwin terminal is doing already? I see a WriteConsoleOutput 
call in fhandler_console.cc, which manipulates the console screen 
content directly.

> The fact that windows apps don't like cygwin ptys is why we never made
> rxvt the standard interface.  What would be nice is to give the user
> some easy way to decide which they want.  We would, of course, still get
> people complaining about whichever choice they made, though.

Agreed. :)


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RE: MinTTY

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] (Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:10:17 -0500)
> 
> Thorsten Kampe wrote on Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:37 AM:
> > * Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] (Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:03:48 -0500)>
> >> Thorsten Kampe wrote on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:40 AM:
> >>> you have to use "start".
> >>
> >> Or "cygstart.exe"?
> >
> > Right. Although there is no real advantage to use that instead of
> > start.
> 
> On XP there is no start.exe.  (98se )  So you have to use
>         cmd /c start
> 
> The main advantage of cygstart is that it understands POSIX paths.
> 
> I seem to remember that sometimes quoting can be simpler with cygstart
> than with `cmd /c start'.

We were talking about launching applications from a batch script. In 
regard to batch files I have to say that your considerations - which are 
absolutely correct - are not relevant.

Thorsten


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MinTTY 0.3.2

[Andy Koppe]

Hi,

I've uploaded MinTTY release 0.3.2 to http://code.google.com/p/mintty. 
It fixes a number of bugs and shortcomings:

- Pasting of multiple lines into apps like vi works properly.
- F1 to F4 send xterm-compatible VT220-style keycodes.
- The first click on the options dialog is no longer ignored.
- The scrollbar is shown by default.
- Closing on Alt-F4 can be disabled (on the Window panel).
- Characters can be entered via Alt+Numpad codes. Extending on the 
standard Windows behaviour, codepoints beyond 255 are supported and 
octal codes can be entered by typing zero as the first digit.

Special thanks to Ashok Vadekar for his help with some of these issues.

Andy

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.2

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

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Andy Koppe wrote:
> I've uploaded MinTTY release 0.3.2 to http://code.google.com/p/mintty.

Ports SVN updated accordingly.  I would encourage you to ITP this, as
this would be widely beneficial, and you will get more feedback as well.
 Package maintenance is really easy with cygport. :-)


Yaakov

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.2

[Brian Salter-Duke]

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:51:53 -0600, Yaakov (Cygwin/X) 
<yselkowitz@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
> Andy Koppe wrote:
>> I've uploaded MinTTY release 0.3.2 to http://code.google.com/p/mintty.
>
> Ports SVN updated accordingly.  I would encourage you to ITP this, as
> this would be widely beneficial, and you will get more feedback as well.
>  Package maintenance is really easy with cygport. :-)
>
>
> Yaakov
>

OK, I have just downloaded the latest version and compiled it. It comes
up fine. However the text font size is very small. Is there a way to
make it easier to read? Indeed, is there a way to configure quite a few
things. Am I missing something about documentation?

Brian.


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.2

[Andy Koppe]

> OK, I have just downloaded the latest version and compiled it. It comes
> up fine. However the text font size is very small. Is there a way to
> make it easier to read? Indeed, is there a way to configure quite a few
> things.  Am I missing something about documentation?

The options dialog can be reached via the context menu or the window
menu (Keyboard shortcuts: menu O or Alt+Space O). Alternatively, the
config file .minttyrc can be edited directly.

Apologies for the lack of documentation.

Andy


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.2

[Brian Salter-Duke]

On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 05:41:33 +0000, Andy Koppe <andy.koppe@gmail.com> wrote:
>> OK, I have just downloaded the latest version and compiled it. It comes
>> up fine. However the text font size is very small. Is there a way to
>> make it easier to read? Indeed, is there a way to configure quite a few
>> things.  Am I missing something about documentation?
>
> The options dialog can be reached via the context menu or the window
> menu (Keyboard shortcuts: menu O or Alt+Space O). Alternatively, the
> config file .minttyrc can be edited directly.

Great. I found the menus and editing the font ot be bigger and also to
get it black on white rather than white on black. I saw that a config
file was called .minttyrc, but what does on put it in?

> Apologies for the lack of documentation.

No worries, it will come.

Cheers, Brian.

> Andy
>
>


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Use this for reply or followup.  Registered Linux user 287938.
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Re: MinTTY 0.3.2

[Peter Rosin]

Den 2009-01-05 02:51 skrev Yaakov (Cygwin/X):
> Andy Koppe wrote:
>> I've uploaded MinTTY release 0.3.2 to http://code.google.com/p/mintty.
> 
> Ports SVN updated accordingly.  I would encourage you to ITP this, as
> this would be widely beneficial, and you will get more feedback as well.
>  Package maintenance is really easy with cygport. :-)

It's either that, or uploading the source of the cygwin1.dll to
code.google.com in order to comply with the GPL...

Cheers,
Peter

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.2

[Peter Rosin]

Den 2009-01-06 07:25, skrev Peter Rosin:
> Den 2009-01-05 02:51 skrev Yaakov (Cygwin/X):
>> Andy Koppe wrote:
>>> I've uploaded MinTTY release 0.3.2 to http://code.google.com/p/mintty.
>>
>> Ports SVN updated accordingly.  I would encourage you to ITP this, as
>> this would be widely beneficial, and you will get more feedback as well.
>>  Package maintenance is really easy with cygport. :-)
> 
> It's either that, or uploading the source of the cygwin1.dll to
> code.google.com in order to comply with the GPL...

Sorry, I need to wake up before I write emails. I take that back. There's
no download of the cygwin1.dll, so source for it not needed.

Cheers, and sorry again,
Peter

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MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andy Koppe]

Hi,

MinTTY release 0.3.3 is available from http://code.google.com/p/mintty. 
It fixes the following bugs:

- The "Disable transparency when active" feature caused the window to
flicker on XP
- The "Alt key on its own sends ^[" setting was ignored, i.e. Alt
alone always sent the ESC character
- The shortcut for the "System Default" font smoothing option didn't
work.

I've started looking into packaging and cygport, but it might still be a 
little while. I'll try to submit something before starting work on 0.4.0 
enhancements.

Andy


ps: Is this the appropriate list for such announcements?

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 11:17:15PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> ps: Is this the appropriate list for such announcements?

Given that you are intending to package this for the real distribution,
yes.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Andy Koppe (Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:17:15 +0000)
> 
> MinTTY release 0.3.3 is available from http://code.google.com/p/mintty. 
> It fixes the following bugs:
> [...]
> I've started looking into packaging and cygport, but it might still be a 
> little while. I'll try to submit something before starting work on 0.4.0 
> enhancements.

I WANT TABS!!

(just kidding - but tabs would really be fine... :-) )

Thorsten


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Danilo Turina]

Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> * Andy Koppe (Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:17:15 +0000)
>> MinTTY release 0.3.3 is available from http://code.google.com/p/mintty. 
>> It fixes the following bugs:
>> [...]
>> I've started looking into packaging and cygport, but it might still be a 
>> little while. I'll try to submit something before starting work on 0.4.0 
>> enhancements.
> 
> I WANT TABS!!

Well if tabs get in, I'll throw mrxvt out of the window (or out of the 
X-Window?).

> (just kidding - but tabs would really be fine... :-) )

Please...

> 
> Thorsten
> 
> 
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-- 
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7 anni 9 mesi 1 ora 7 minuti 29 secondi

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Michael Lemke]

Danilo Turina <danilo.turina <at> alcatel-lucent.it> writes:

> 
> Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> > * Andy Koppe (Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:17:15 +0000)
> >> MinTTY release 0.3.3 is available from http://code.google.com/p/mintty. 
> >> It fixes the following bugs:
> >> [...]
> >> I've started looking into packaging and cygport, but it might still be a 
> >> little while. I'll try to submit something before starting work on 0.4.0 
> >> enhancements.
> > 
> > I WANT TABS!!
> 
> Well if tabs get in, I'll throw mrxvt out of the window (or out of the 
> X-Window?).
> 

I just don't get it.  What's wrong with rxvt?  I've been using it for years as 
my only terminal for cygwin and never understood why it isn't the default.  I 
tried mintty the other day but couldn't find anything rxvt isn't doing.  In 
fact, mintty kind of froze on something eventually - at which point I decided 
to give up on it.  So why should I use mintty?

Michael


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andrew DeFaria]

Michael Lemke wrote:
> I just don't get it. What's wrong with rxvt? I've been using it for 
> years as my only terminal for cygwin and never understood why it isn't 
> the default. 
While I agree, rxvt does have problems with programs written for the DOS 
style console output (e.g. cleartool from IBM/Rational Clearcase and 
others). Besides isn't it written somewhere that true Unix defaults must 
be ugly and brain dead? 1/2 ;-)
-- 
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Always proofread carefully to see if you any words out.


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 10:21:42PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
> Michael Lemke wrote:
>> I just don't get it. What's wrong with rxvt? I've been using it for years 
>> as my only terminal for cygwin and never understood why it isn't the 
>> default. 
> While I agree, rxvt does have problems with programs written for the DOS 
> style console output (e.g. cleartool from IBM/Rational Clearcase and 
> others).

...and if you were paying attention you'd know that MinTTY is going to have
the same problems...

cgf

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andy Koppe]

Michael Lemke wrote:
> I just don't get it.  What's wrong with rxvt?  I've been using it for years as 
> my only terminal for cygwin and never understood why it isn't the default.  I 
> tried mintty the other day but couldn't find anything rxvt isn't doing.

MinTTY's main distinctions compared to rxvt are its native Windows look 
and feel and the options dialog (which among other things allows you to 
  configure it in an Xish way).

Now of course both those things are a matter of personal preference and 
experience, and if you have rxvt looking and working the way you want it 
to, they obviously won't be able to tempt you over. My main aim with 
MinTTY is to help integrate Cygwin better into its Windows environment 
and thus make it more approachable both for Windows users as well as for 
Linux/Unix users who are accustomed to terminals like KDE's Konsole or 
gnome-terminal.

There are a few more advantages/differences though:
- Drag&drop and copy&paste of files and folders into the MinTTY window 
(as first seen in Konsole).
- xterm-compatible encoding of modifier keys.
- Unicode support. (Of course there's rxvt-unicode, but that needs X.)
- Midnight Commander displays correctly.
- MinTTY is smaller and faster. (Does that matter? Probably not.)

And just a little helping of eye candy:
- Window transparency (which can be disabled when the window is active).
- Fullscreen mode.

> In fact, mintty kind of froze on something eventually

Any details you might remember would be much appreciated in the 
interests of bug fixing.

Andy


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andy Koppe]

Danilo Turina wrote:
> Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>> I WANT TABS!!
> 
> Well if tabs get in, I'll throw mrxvt out of the window (or out of the 
> X-Window?).

Sorry guys, I'm afraid there's no chance of me implementing those. See 
http://code.google.com/p/mintty/issues/detail?id=8

I think something like WinTabber, which is a container app that can 
aggregate any related windows, is a much better approach to tabbing than 
implementing it separately in each app. Shame it's not Free.

Andy

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[KHMan]

Andy Koppe wrote:
> Danilo Turina wrote:
>> Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>>> I WANT TABS!!
>>
>> Well if tabs get in, I'll throw mrxvt out of the window (or out of the 
>> X-Window?).
> 
> Sorry guys, I'm afraid there's no chance of me implementing those. See 
> http://code.google.com/p/mintty/issues/detail?id=8
> 
> I think something like WinTabber, which is a container app that can 
> aggregate any related windows, is a much better approach to tabbing than 
> implementing it separately in each app. Shame it's not Free.

I guess it's down to someone needing to do the cold-blooded task 
of implementation. :-)

Personally, I found navigation using VirtuaWin nicer than 
WinTabber, and it's GPL. One can get to any app in the current 
virtual screen using one mouse click, with grouping of course 
turned off. I would have spoken out in favour of tabs too, but 
VirtuaWin, for the most part, works well enough for me to negate 
that need.

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andrew DeFaria]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 10:21:42PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>> Michael Lemke wrote:
>>> I just don't get it. What's wrong with rxvt? I've been using it for 
>>> years as my only terminal for cygwin and never understood why it 
>>> isn't the default.
>> While I agree, rxvt does have problems with programs written for the 
>> DOS style console output (e.g. cleartool from IBM/Rational Clearcase 
>> and others).
> ...and if you were paying attention you'd know that MinTTY is going to 
> have the same problems...
And I was paying attention to which I'd add: MinTTY also probably won't 
become Cygwin's default!
-- 
Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
Deja Fu: The feeling that somehow, somewhere, you've been kicked in the 
head like this before.


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andrew DeFaria]

Andy Koppe wrote:
> Michael Lemke wrote:
>> I just don't get it.  What's wrong with rxvt?  I've been using it for 
>> years as my only terminal for cygwin and never understood why it 
>> isn't the default.  I tried mintty the other day but couldn't find 
>> anything rxvt isn't doing.
> MinTTY's main distinctions compared to rxvt are its native Windows 
> look and feel 
What is the native Windows look and feel other than the Window frame? 
Doesn't rxvt have the same window frame as any other window you have 
running under Windows already? (For comparison sake, let's assume both 
rxvt and MinTTy have a basic black & white color scheme).
> and the options dialog (which among other things allows you to 
>  configure it in an Xish way).
What could be more Xish then X Resources, which rxvt pays total 
attention to?
> And just a little helping of eye candy:
> - Window transparency (which can be disabled when the window is active).
There's transparency with rxvt too. Try -ip.
> - Fullscreen mode.
My rxvt maximizes. What you mean there's still a window frame? Doesn't 
bother me. And the amount of times when I really want to waste all of my 
screen real estate on one window can be counted on one hand...
-- 
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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 11:35:44AM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 10:21:42PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>>> Michael Lemke wrote:
>>>> I just don't get it. What's wrong with rxvt? I've been using it for 
>>>> years as my only terminal for cygwin and never understood why it isn't 
>>>> the default.
>>> While I agree, rxvt does have problems with programs written for the DOS 
>>> style console output (e.g. cleartool from IBM/Rational Clearcase and 
>>> others).
>>
>>...and if you were paying attention you'd know that MinTTY is going to
>>have the same problems...
>
>And I was paying attention to which I'd add: MinTTY also probably won't
>become Cygwin's default!

This is YA point that has already been made.  You are not adding anything
new here.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andrew DeFaria]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> This is YA point that has already been made. You are not adding 
> anything new here.
I'm not sure that a "YA" is - the closest I see is Yaakov but he didn't 
say anything about this AFAICT. In any event I feel I am adding 
something, which was a reason why both of these alternate terminals are 
not the default for Cygwin. If you disagree with me then feel free to 
ignore what I say...
-- 
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Old is when an "All-Nighter" means not getting up to pee


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andy Koppe]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

> What is the native Windows look and feel other than the Window frame? 

- scrollbar
- right-click menu (also reachable via menu key)
- options dialog, with font and colour selectors
- copy&paste behaviour (copy-on-demand, Ctrl-Ins copies, shift-left 
click extends)
- drag&drop

>> and the options dialog (which among other things allows you to 
>>  configure it in an Xish way).
> What could be more Xish then X Resources, which rxvt pays total 
> attention to?

That point wasn't about rxvt. I was just saying that you're not
stuck with Windows-style behaviour in MinTTY. (Btw, the options dialog
isn't compulsory either; MinTTY can be configured via .minttyrc, 
although that's in need of documentation.)

>> And just a little helping of eye candy:
>> - Window transparency (which can be disabled when the window is active).
> There's transparency with rxvt too. Try -ip.

 From the manpage:
   -ip|+ip Turn on/off inheriting parent window's pixmap.
           Alternative is -tr; resource inheritPixmap.

Now I don't really understand what that's supposed to mean, but I'm 
pretty sure it's not proper alpha blending. In any case, all that option 
achieves on my Vista machine is to make window moves and resizes very slow.

>> - Fullscreen mode.
> My rxvt maximizes. What you mean there's still a window frame? Doesn't 
> bother me. And the amount of times when I really want to waste all of my 
> screen real estate on one window can be counted on one hand...

Different people, different preferences. MinTTY inherited that feature 
from PuTTY, and I didn't see any reason to remove it. Actually I rather 
like fullscreen mode, not so much for the extra space as for the removal 
of any visual distractions.

Andy


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 12:40:35PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>This is YA point that has already been made.  You are not adding
>>anything new here.
>
>I'm not sure that a "YA" is - the closest I see is Yaakov but he didn't
>say anything about this AFAICT.  In any event I feel I am adding
>something, which was a reason why both of these alternate terminals are
>not the default for Cygwin.  If you disagree with me then feel free to
>ignore what I say...

<http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#YA>YA</a> means "Y"et "A"nother.

As I said, the point has been made.  If you think I want to disagree
with it, you've proved my original assertion that you aren't paying
attention since I was the person who made the point.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andrew DeFaria]

Andy Koppe wrote:
> Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>
>> What is the native Windows look and feel other than the Window frame? 
> - scrollbar
> - right-click menu (also reachable via menu key)
> - options dialog, with font and colour selectors
> - copy&paste behaviour (copy-on-demand, Ctrl-Ins copies, shift-left 
> click extends)
> - drag&drop
OK. None of this is particularly important... to me..
>>> and the options dialog (which among other things allows you to 
>>>  configure it in an Xish way).
>> What could be more Xish then X Resources, which rxvt pays total 
>> attention to?
> That point wasn't about rxvt. I was just saying that you're not stuck 
> with Windows-style behaviour in MinTTY. (Btw, the options dialog isn't 
> compulsory either; MinTTY can be configured via .minttyrc, although 
> that's in need of documentation.)
My point is that rxvt pays attention to .Xdefaults which is very Xish IMHO.
>>> And just a little helping of eye candy: - Window transparency (which 
>>> can be disabled when the window is active).
>> There's transparency with rxvt too. Try -ip.
> From the manpage:
>   -ip|+ip Turn on/off inheriting parent window's pixmap.
>           Alternative is -tr; resource inheritPixmap.
>
> Now I don't really understand what that's supposed to mean, but I'm 
> pretty sure it's not proper alpha blending. In any case, all that 
> option achieves on my Vista machine is to make window moves and 
> resizes very slow.
Oh I didn't say it was the best thing since sliced bread, just that rxvt 
does transparency of a sort too.
>>> - Fullscreen mode.
>> My rxvt maximizes. What you mean there's still a window frame? 
>> Doesn't bother me. And the amount of times when I really want to 
>> waste all of my screen real estate on one window can be counted on 
>> one hand...
> Different people, different preferences. MinTTY inherited that feature 
> from PuTTY, and I didn't see any reason to remove it. Actually I 
> rather like fullscreen mode, not so much for the extra space as for 
> the removal of any visual distractions.
Indeed, different strokes for different folks.
-- 
Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
Why do we buy hot dogs in packages of ten and buns in packages of eight?


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andrew DeFaria]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 12:40:35PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>> This is YA point that has already been made. You are not adding 
>>> anything new here.
>> I'm not sure that a "YA" is - the closest I see is Yaakov but he 
>> didn't say anything about this AFAICT. In any event I feel I am 
>> adding something, which was a reason why both of these alternate 
>> terminals are
>> not the default for Cygwin. If you disagree with me then feel free to 
>> ignore what I say...
> <http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#YA>YA</a> means "Y"et "A"nother.
>
> As I said, the point has been made. If you think I want to disagree 
> with it, you've proved my original assertion that you aren't paying 
> attention since I was the person who made the point.
Seems to me you're just being pedantic and obtuse and there's no reason 
for me to go there. Have fun there by yourself.

Out of here...
-- 
Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
Why do we put suits in garment bags and garments in a suitcase?


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Matt Wozniski]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:
> Andy Koppe wrote:
>> Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>>> Andy Koppe wrote:
>>>> and the options dialog (which among other things allows you to
>>>>  configure it in an Xish way).
>>>
>>> What could be more Xish then X Resources, which rxvt pays total attention
>>> to?
>>
>> That point wasn't about rxvt. I was just saying that you're not stuck with
>> Windows-style behaviour in MinTTY.
>
> My point is that rxvt pays attention to .Xdefaults which is very Xish IMHO.

What you seem to have misunderstood is that when Andy said "configure
it in an x-ish way", he didn't mean "configure it with x resources
like some x applications", he meant "configure it to behave like most
x terminal emulators wrt selection, copying, pasting, etc".

~Matt

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 04:10:53PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>Out of here...

If only that was really true.

cgf

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[newsletter]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 04:10:53PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>   
>> Out of here...
>>     
>
> If only that was really true.
>
> cgf
mmmmmmm
<start soapbox>
Linux is about choice and not being forced to use a limited set of 
tools. If rxvt works for you than that's fine - use it. don't knock the 
alternatives.
personally I like mintty and it has become my terminal of choice - even 
replacing the windows command prompt. the lack of tabs is no problem.
It is small fast (loading and usage) and simple. I don't think it needs 
a lot of extra's that a lot of software seems to come with these days
<end soapbox>

keep up the good work!!

Stephen

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RE: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: Christopher Faylor
> 
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 04:10:53PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
> >Out of here...
> 
> If only that was really true.
> 
> cgf

I thought there was a specific mailing list where such
Cygwin-related-content-free urinating contests were more appropriately held.
I must have been misled.

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
  


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 09:00:06PM -0600, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
>> From: Christopher Faylor
>> 
>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 04:10:53PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>> >Out of here...
>> 
>> If only that was really true.
>
>I thought there was a specific mailing list where such
>Cygwin-related-content-free urinating contests were more appropriately
>held.  I must have been misled.

I think your confusion is pretty well documented by now.

I can only speculate on your lack of embarrassment about the frequent
public displays of confusion however.

cgf

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RE: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From:  Christopher Faylor
> 
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 09:00:06PM -0600, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> >> From: Christopher Faylor
> >> 
> >> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 04:10:53PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
> >> >Out of here...
> >> 
> >> If only that was really true.
> >
> >I thought there was a specific mailing list where such 
> >Cygwin-related-content-free urinating contests were more 
> appropriately 
> >held.  I must have been misled.
> 
> I think your confusion is pretty well documented by now.
> 
> I can only speculate on your lack of embarrassment about the 
> frequent public displays of confusion however.
> 
> cgf
> 

Should you wish to continue the aforementioned contest and/or send more
silly passive-aggressive insults my way, please do so on the cygwin-talk@
list.  For your convenience, and for the benefit of the readers of the
cygwin@ list, I have set followups accordingly.

Thank you for your cooperation in keeping the cygwin@ list a place where
Cygwin-related issues can be discussed with a minimum of topic-free
distractions.

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 


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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Lee D. Rothstein]

newsletter wrote:
> Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 04:10:53PM -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>>  
>>> Out of here...
>>>     
>>
>> If only that was really true.
>>
>> cgf
> mmmmmmm
> <start soapbox>
> Linux is about choice and not being forced to use a limited set of 
> tools. If rxvt works for you than that's fine - use it. don't knock 
> the alternatives.
> personally I like mintty and it has become my terminal of choice - 
> even replacing the windows command prompt. the lack of tabs is no 
> problem.
> It is small fast (loading and usage) and simple. I don't think it 
> needs a lot of extra's that a lot of software seems to come with these 
> days
> <end soapbox>
>
> keep up the good work!!
Amen to every point.

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MinTTY 0.3.4

[Andy Koppe]

Hi,

I've uploaded MinTTY 0.3.4 to http://code.google.com/p/mintty. This is a 
more substantial bugfix release than the previous one, which addresses 
the following issues:

- In 'application cursor mode' the cursor keys sent xterm-incompatible
keycodes when combined with a modifier, starting the sequence with ESC
O instead of ESC [. This is now fixed, which means e.g. that 
combinations such as <C-Up> should now work out-of-the box in vim. 
Nevertheless it's an incompatible change, so apologies to anyone who 
adapted their scripts to MinTTY's incorrect behaviour.
This change also affects the keycodes sent by the mousewheel when on
the alternate screen and not in app mouse mode. For the mousewheel to
work in less, .lesskey therefore now should look as follows (assuming 
'Shift' is the modifier key for scrolling):

   \e[1;2A back-line
   \e[1;2B forw-line

- There was a crash when scrolling beyond 32K lines. (The scrollback
limit is actually set to 64K lines, not 16K as previously mentioned.)

- The Linefeed/Newline Mode (LNM) parameter was ignored.

- When selecting multiple lines, the first character on the last line
was always included.

- Signals were not processed immediately.

- MinTTY keeps its window open when the command it runs reports
failure, so that any error output can be read (which is useful e.g.
with ssh). However, this did not deal with signals properly. Now it
will stay open only if the command exited with non-zero status or was
terminated by a runtime error signal such as SIGSEGV or SIGILL.

Andy

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.4

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Andy Koppe wrote:
> I've uploaded MinTTY 0.3.4 to http://code.google.com/p/mintty. This is a
> more substantial bugfix release than the previous one, which addresses
> the following issues:

I updated Ports SVN accordingly.  Do you intend to ITP this for
inclusion in the distro?


Yaakov
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Cygwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEAREIAAYFAklua+sACgkQpiWmPGlmQSNmAwCgkfFGmZZ34XrXirIfERzqhguz
4UAAoLVtlasRS1RDcMH7J9jHdBaDFEEe
=/o+g
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.4

[Andy Koppe]

Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
>> I've uploaded MinTTY 0.3.4 to http://code.google.com/p/mintty. This is a
>> more substantial bugfix release than the previous one, which addresses
>> the following issues:
> 
> I updated Ports SVN accordingly.  

Thanks!

> Do you intend to ITP this for inclusion in the distro?

Yes, but unfortunately all my MinTTY time has been taken up with
bugfixes. Hopefully the worst is fixed now though.

Andy


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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
> I quickly put together a package for Ports which could get you started:
> 
> http://cygwin-ports.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/cygwin-ports/ports/trunk/apps/mintty/
> 
> Check out this directory, then use cygport to build it.  If you're new
> to cygport, the package README is a must-read.

Okay, I'm having a go at this. cygport does look very nice indeed, but 
unfortunately I got stuck anyway.

So I've got the following files all in one directory:

   mintty-0.3.4-1.cygport
   mintty-0.3.4-src.tgz
   setup.hint
   postinstall.sh
   preremove.sh

Building the source and binary packages works, except for the following:

   *** Warning: setup.hint is missing

postinstall.sh and preremove.sh do not get included in the packages 
either. The cygport README tells me that those files should all be 
placed in the CYGWIN-PATCHES directory. So I naively created a that 
directory alongside the .cygport and shuffled the three files in there, 
but to no effect.

I also tried copying them the to ${C} at the start of src_install():

   cp setup.hint postinstall.sh preremove.sh ${C}

Alas, 'cp' couldn't find those files, presumably because it isn't run in 
the same directory as the .cygport file.

So my probably rather stupid question is, where should I be putting 
those files and how?

Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Andy Koppe]

Andy Koppe wrote:

> Okay, I'm having a go at this. cygport does look very nice indeed, but 
> unfortunately I got stuck anyway.
> 
> So I've got the following files all in one directory:
> 
>   mintty-0.3.4-1.cygport
>   mintty-0.3.4-src.tgz
>   setup.hint
>   postinstall.sh
>   preremove.sh
> 
> Building the source and binary packages works, except for the following:
> 
>   *** Warning: setup.hint is missing
> 
> postinstall.sh and preremove.sh do not get included in the packages 
> either. The cygport README tells me that those files should all be 
> placed in the CYGWIN-PATCHES directory. So I naively created a that 
> directory alongside the .cygport and shuffled the three files in there, 
> but to no effect.
> 
> I also tried copying them the to ${C} at the start of src_install():
> 
>   cp setup.hint postinstall.sh preremove.sh ${C}
> 
> Alas, 'cp' couldn't find those files, presumably because it isn't run in 
> the same directory as the .cygport file.
> 
> So my probably rather stupid question is, where should I be putting 
> those files and how?

I worked it out, I think: run cygport prep command, copy the files into 
foo-x.y.z-r/CYGWIN-PATCHES, and run cygport compile, install and package 
commands.

Andy

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Re: MinTTY

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Andy Koppe wrote:
> I worked it out, I think: run cygport prep command, copy the files into
> foo-x.y.z-r/CYGWIN-PATCHES, and run cygport compile, install and package
> commands.

Exactly.


Yaakov
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Cygwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEAREIAAYFAklygX0ACgkQpiWmPGlmQSPtnACglD+9VQ+VxUBdnlLno5zAlBVT
UTUAn2nddmWNanxmrA69rOkr2xc5bY3k
=AmlY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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MinTTY 0.3.5

[Andy Koppe]

MinTTY version 0.3.5 is available from http://mintty.googlecode.com.
It addresses one serious bug and brings a few small enhancements:

The bug:
- The --config option was unusable, because MinTTY would attempt to
invoke '--config' as the child process command.

Enhancements:
- The user's default shell can be invoked as a login shell by passing
'-' (a single minus character) as the command.
- Word selection (by double-clicking) now includes the tilde character
in filenames.
- Added command line option for setting the initial window title.
- Added short versions of command line options.
- Improved help output.

mintty --help
Usage: mintty [OPTION]... [COMMAND [ARGS]...]

If no command is given, the user's default shell is invoked as a 
non-login shell. If the command is a single minus sign, the default 
shell is invoked as a login shell. Otherwise the command is invoked with 
the given arguments.

Options:
   -c, --config=FILE   Use specified config file (default: ~/.minttyrc)
   -t, --title=TITLE   Set window title (default: the invoked command)
   -h, --help          Display this help and exit
   -v, --version       Print version information and exit

With any luck, this will be the last MinTTY announcement in this form.

Andy

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[bjoe]

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 03:36:45PM +1300, newsletter wrote:
> <start soapbox>
> Linux is about choice and not being forced to use a limited set of 
> tools. If rxvt works for you than that's fine - use it. don't knock the 
> alternatives.
Agree 
> personally I like mintty and it has become my terminal of choice - even 
> replacing the windows command prompt. the lack of tabs is no problem.
> It is small fast (loading and usage) and simple. I don't think it needs 
> a lot of extra's that a lot of software seems to come with these days
> <end soapbox>
What I found missing in Mintty is putty feature to start duplicate
session (more welcome with hot-keys), moreover it will replace 
Mintty lack of tabs problems IMHO. 
> 
> keep up the good work!!
Yup
> 
> Stephen
Regards


-- 
It is easy to say no when
          there is a deeper yes burning within

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Andy Koppe]

> What I found missing in Mintty is putty feature to start duplicate
> session (more welcome with hot-keys)

Since MinTTY doesn't have sessions like Putty, I didn't think there
was much point in keeping this.
Desktop and quickstart shortcuts already provide quick ways to open a
new MinTTY window, and as discussed on a separate thread here you can
assign hotkeys to Windows shortcuts.

> moreover it will replace
> Mintty lack of tabs problems IMHO.

That's not MinTTY's problem, it's Windows'! ;)

>> keep up the good work!!
> Yup

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[bjoe]

On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 09:37:03PM +0000, Andy Koppe wrote:
> > What I found missing in Mintty is putty feature to start duplicate
> > session (more welcome with hot-keys)
> 
> Since MinTTY doesn't have sessions like Putty, I didn't think there
> was much point in keeping this.

It's because you remove networking function from putty, right. IMHO
this feature will help many user (especially who come from Windows
word) and will give sort of additional point for Mintty (regarding
flame war between mintty and rxvt).
I don't know the relationship between networking function in Putty with
duplicate session feature in code point of view, but since this based
on putty code I hope this will not give some sort of difficulty to
adopt this feature in mintty.
 
> Desktop and quickstart shortcuts already provide quick ways to open a
> new MinTTY window, and as discussed on a separate thread here you can
> assign hotkeys to Windows shortcuts.
> 

I run Cygwin from portable media in different PC so Desktop and
quickstart shortcut not an options in My case.

> > moreover it will replace
> > Mintty lack of tabs problems IMHO.
> 
> That's not MinTTY's problem, it's Windows'! ;)
> 
> >> keep up the good work!!
> > Yup
> 
> Thanks,
> Andy

-- 
It is easy to say no when
          there is a deeper yes burning within

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[Charles Wilson]

bjoe wrote:

> It's because you remove networking function from putty, right. IMHO
> this feature will help many user (especially who come from Windows
> word) and will give sort of additional point for Mintty (regarding
> flame war between mintty and rxvt).

What flame war?  If you like mintty, use it.  More power to you.  If you
like rxvt, use that.  Or use both, as the mood strikes you -- that's
what I do.  That's the point of free software...you're free to use
whatever you want.

--
Chuck
cygwin-rxvt maintainer

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Re: MinTTY 0.3.3

[bjoe]

On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 01:46:23PM -0400, Charles Wilson wrote:
> bjoe wrote:
> 
> > It's because you remove networking function from putty, right. IMHO
> > this feature will help many user (especially who come from Windows
> > word) and will give sort of additional point for Mintty (regarding
> > flame war between mintty and rxvt).
> 
> What flame war?  If you like mintty, use it.  More power to you.  If you
> like rxvt, use that.  Or use both, as the mood strikes you -- that's
> what I do.  That's the point of free software...you're free to use
> whatever you want.
> 

We can not avoid the fact that someone in this list making thread
about Mintty vs Rxvt, but I totally agree with you and my position is
clear about that as I write before.

> --
> Chuck
> cygwin-rxvt maintainer

-- 
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          there is a deeper yes burning within

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