trouble posting to cygwin-apps

trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Gregg Levine]

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Christopher Faylor <deleted> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 04, 2010 at 04:33:26PM -0400, Bill Hoffman wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>Sorry if this is the wrong mailing list for this, but I am trying to get
>>a new CMake release uploaded to cygwin and am having some trouble.  I
>>can not seem to post messages to the cygwin-apps mailing list.  I tried
>>to re-subscribe my email address, but it correctly said I was already
>>subscribed.   Is there anyone on this list that could help me?
>
> As I said in response to your message to postmaster of Sep 30 - you were
> sending html email.  Apparently the bounce (and the reply from postmaster)
> which informed you of that fact were caught in your spam filter.
>
> --

Hello!
Bill, he's making a heck of a good point. Most people don't realize
that HTML mail can carry all sorts of nasty things, and leave their
mail programs set on that as default.

Hence the reasoning behind everything at your end CGF. In fact I won't
even argue.

Bill check your filters to see if anything was caught.
-----
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"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 05:57:19PM -0400, Gregg Levine wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Christopher Faylor <deleted> wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 04, 2010 at 04:33:26PM -0400, Bill Hoffman wrote:
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>Sorry if this is the wrong mailing list for this, but I am trying to get
>>>a new CMake release uploaded to cygwin and am having some trouble.  I
>>>can not seem to post messages to the cygwin-apps mailing list.  I tried
>>>to re-subscribe my email address, but it correctly said I was already
>>>subscribed.   Is there anyone on this list that could help me?
>>
>> As I said in response to your message to postmaster of Sep 30 - you were
>> sending html email.  Apparently the bounce (and the reply from postmaster)
>> which informed you of that fact were caught in your spam filter.
>
>Bill, he's making a heck of a good point. Most people don't realize
>that HTML mail can carry all sorts of nasty things, and leave their
>mail programs set on that as default.
>
>Hence the reasoning behind everything at your end CGF. In fact I won't
>even argue.

There is no need for arguing about anything.  My point (which I guess I
didn't make clear) was that the mailing lists at
cygwin.com/sourceware.org/gcc.gnu.org do not accept html email, even if
there is a pure text component.

cgf

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Bill Hoffman]

On 10/7/2010 6:15 PM, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> There is no need for arguing about anything.  My point (which I guess I
> didn't make clear) was that the mailing lists at
> cygwin.com/sourceware.org/gcc.gnu.org do not accept html email, even if
> there is a pure text component.
>
Thanks, my bad.  Thunderbird seems to want to turn template email into 
html.  I think it is a new Thunderbird feature as I have been using the 
same template for some time now.  I really thought I was not sending 
HTML email.

-Bill

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[SZABO Gergely]

Thanks for the gmane tip!

Best regards
Gergely Szabó



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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[SZABÓ Gergely]

Hello,

The mailing list does not accept html email, that's fair enough. 

The real problem is, it also bounces every email with a company
disclaimer about intentions and original addressees.

Well, the original addressee is cygwin at cygwin dot com, which is a public
mailing list, readable even from Alpha Centauri (with 4 years delay).

This policy is OK for most FOSS projects, but Cygwin should be an
exception. I think Cygwin is used most by 3PPs within big companies
where everybody _must_ use Windows and those disclaimers are always attached to
outgoing mail. If you are a free and sane person, attracted to unixy stuff,
you'd probably use Linux.

Yes, I've read the posting instructions, and I know I should convince my
employer to remove the disclaimers. What chance do you think I have to
convince a 20000-employee company, where central IT is not even in my
country? They also restrict access to private email from the office. 

I know, I should leave them and/or buy a smartphone for emailing. :-)

But my point is: the mailing list is cut off from its most important
audience.

Best regards
Gergely




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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Eric Blake]

On 10/08/2010 12:20 AM, SZABÓ Gergely wrote:
> This policy is OK for most FOSS projects,

No, most FOSS projects tend to frown on disclaimers.  It's just that 
cygwin is a bit more pro-active about the frowning, by actually 
rejecting it up front.

 >  I think Cygwin is used most by 3PPs within big companies
> where everybody _must_ use Windows and those disclaimers are always attached to
> outgoing mail.

No one said you had to use your company's outgoing mail.  gmane provides 
a relatively decent web-based interface for posting to this list sans 
company disclaimer.

-- 
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Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 08:20:42AM +0200, SZAB? Gergely wrote:
>The mailing list does not accept html email, that's fair enough.
>
>The real problem is, it also bounces every email with a company
>disclaimer about intentions and original addressees.

>Well, the original addressee is cygwin at cygwin dot com, which is a public
>mailing list, readable even from Alpha Centauri (with 4 years delay).
>
>This policy is OK for most FOSS projects, but Cygwin should be an
>exception. I think Cygwin is used most by 3PPs within big companies
>where everybody _must_ use Windows and those disclaimers are always attached to
>outgoing mail. If you are a free and sane person, attracted to unixy stuff,
>you'd probably use Linux.
>
>Yes, I've read the posting instructions, and I know I should convince my
>employer to remove the disclaimers. What chance do you think I have to
>convince a 20000-employee company, where central IT is not even in my
>country? They also restrict access to private email from the office. 
>
>I know, I should leave them and/or buy a smartphone for emailing. :-)
>
>But my point is: the mailing list is cut off from its most important
>audience.

As I think you understand, the cygwin-apps list, like every other list
at sourceware.org/gcc.gnu.org does not allow company disclaimers.  That
is not going to change.  We block the disclaimers because they are
intended to be legally binding directives and as such we do not want to
be encumbered.  This is a site-wide policy.  It is not malleable due to
the need of the people who want to send email.

Since the cygwin mailing list is always in the top two for site traffic
I think it's safe to say that we aren't suffering too much from this
restriction but, even if it was, I don't really ascribe to the notion
that we're suffering from lack of contributors to the project because we
block disclaimers.  As Eric Blake points out, there are plenty of ways
to get a message posted here without going through the corporate
firewall.  But, even if none of those are acceptable, it isn't really up
to the administrators at this site to accommodate your needs.

cgf

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Kenneth Wolcott]

2010/10/7 SZABÓ Gergely <szg@subogero.com>:
> Hello,
>
> The mailing list does not accept html email, that's fair enough.
>
> The real problem is, it also bounces every email with a company
> disclaimer about intentions and original addressees.
>
> Well, the original addressee is cygwin at cygwin dot com, which is a public
> mailing list, readable even from Alpha Centauri (with 4 years delay).
>
> This policy is OK for most FOSS projects, but Cygwin should be an
> exception. I think Cygwin is used most by 3PPs within big companies
> where everybody _must_ use Windows and those disclaimers are always attached to
> outgoing mail. If you are a free and sane person, attracted to unixy stuff,
> you'd probably use Linux.
>
> Yes, I've read the posting instructions, and I know I should convince my
> employer to remove the disclaimers. What chance do you think I have to
> convince a 20000-employee company, where central IT is not even in my
> country? They also restrict access to private email from the office.
>
> I know, I should leave them and/or buy a smartphone for emailing. :-)
>
> But my point is: the mailing list is cut off from its most important
> audience.
>
> Best regards
> Gergely

IMNSHO:  Solution: Subscribe to the list and post to the list using a
non-company email address.

  The only downside I can think of is where the management does not
allow you to use non-company email or application to access a
non-company email address.

Ken Wolcott

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Csaba Raduly]

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Kenneth Wolcott  wrote:
> IMNSHO:  Solution: Subscribe to the list and post to the list using a
> non-company email address.
>
>  The only downside I can think of is where the management does not
> allow you to use non-company email or application to access a
> non-company email address.
>

I somehow doubt they can disable Gmail...

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[SZABO Gergely]

Csaba Raduly <rcsaba <at> gmail.com> writes:

> 
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Kenneth Wolcott  wrote:
> > IMNSHO:  Solution: Subscribe to the list and post to the list using a
> > non-company email address.
> >
> >  The only downside I can think of is where the management does not
> > allow you to use non-company email or application to access a
> > non-company email address.
> >
> 
> I somehow doubt they can disable Gmail...
> 


That's exactly what they did. Absolutely no access to private email from the
office. Not even Gmail.

But it does not matter now. If you can read this, it means that Gmane.org still
works. 

Best regards
Gergely


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trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Bill Hoffman]

Hi,

Sorry if this is the wrong mailing list for this, but I am trying to get 
a new CMake release uploaded to cygwin and am having some trouble.  I 
can not seem to post messages to the cygwin-apps mailing list.  I tried 
to re-subscribe my email address, but it correctly said I was already 
subscribed.   Is there anyone on this list that could help me?

Thanks.

-Bill

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Oct  4 16:33, Bill Hoffman wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Sorry if this is the wrong mailing list for this, but I am trying to
> get a new CMake release uploaded to cygwin and am having some
> trouble.  I can not seem to post messages to the cygwin-apps mailing
> list.  I tried to re-subscribe my email address, but it correctly
> said I was already subscribed.   Is there anyone on this list that
> could help me?

Did you use some filtered expression, by any chance?


Corinna

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Corinna Vinschen                  Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Project Co-Leader          cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Red Hat

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Bill Hoffman]

On 10/5/2010 4:07 AM, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> On Oct  4 16:33, Bill Hoffman wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Sorry if this is the wrong mailing list for this, but I am trying to
>> get a new CMake release uploaded to cygwin and am having some
>> trouble.  I can not seem to post messages to the cygwin-apps mailing
>> list.  I tried to re-subscribe my email address, but it correctly
>> said I was already subscribed.   Is there anyone on this list that
>> could help me?
>
> Did you use some filtered expression, by any chance?
>
>
> Corinna
>
What are the filtered expressions?


Here is the message:

---------------------------------------------------
Subject: CMake 2.8.2-1 ready

There has been a new release of the official cmake (2.8.2-1).
This is a major release from to 2.6.0 to 2.8.2.

Here are the required files:

http://www.cmake.org/files/cygwin/setup.hint
http://www.cmake.org/files/cygwin/cmake-2.8.2-1.tar.bz2
http://www.cmake.org/files/cygwin/cmake-2.8.2-1-src.tar.bz2

The previous version should be cmake-2.6.4-1 and the current
version should be cmake-2.8.2-1.

Thanks.

-Bill

---------------------------------------------------

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Oct  5 08:28, Bill Hoffman wrote:
> On 10/5/2010 4:07 AM, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >On Oct  4 16:33, Bill Hoffman wrote:
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>Sorry if this is the wrong mailing list for this, but I am trying to
> >>get a new CMake release uploaded to cygwin and am having some
> >>trouble.  I can not seem to post messages to the cygwin-apps mailing
> >>list.  I tried to re-subscribe my email address, but it correctly
> >>said I was already subscribed.   Is there anyone on this list that
> >>could help me?
> >
> >Did you use some filtered expression, by any chance?
> >
> >
> >Corinna
> >
> What are the filtered expressions?

I don't know.  Cgf can perhaps answer that.

> http://www.cmake.org/files/cygwin/setup.hint
> http://www.cmake.org/files/cygwin/cmake-2.8.2-1.tar.bz2
> http://www.cmake.org/files/cygwin/cmake-2.8.2-1-src.tar.bz2

Uploaded.


Thanks,
Corinna

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Charles Wilson]

On 10/4/2010 4:33 PM, Bill Hoffman wrote:
> I am trying to get
> a new CMake release uploaded to cygwin 

Will this include fixes for WIN32 being erroneously defined for cygwin?
http://cmake.org/Bug/view.php?id=10122

This just bit me trying to build opencv; no, I don't want
    window_w32.cpp cvcap_vfw.cpp cvcap_cmu.cpp
    cvcap_w32.cpp cvcap_dshow.cpp
added to my cygwin build of opencv, since doing so breaks the build...

--
Chuck

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Bill Hoffman]

On 10/5/2010 4:46 PM, Charles Wilson wrote:
> On 10/4/2010 4:33 PM, Bill Hoffman wrote:
>> I am trying to get
>> a new CMake release uploaded to cygwin
>
> Will this include fixes for WIN32 being erroneously defined for cygwin?
> http://cmake.org/Bug/view.php?id=10122
>
> This just bit me trying to build opencv; no, I don't want
>      window_w32.cpp cvcap_vfw.cpp cvcap_cmu.cpp
>      cvcap_w32.cpp cvcap_dshow.cpp
> added to my cygwin build of opencv, since doing so breaks the build...
>

No, it will not.  I don't think all of those issues have even been 
resolved in the development branch of CMake due to backwards 
compatibility concerns.  However, this is more of a discussion for the 
CMake developer mailing list.


-Bill

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Marco Atzeri]

--- Mar 5/10/10, Bill Hoffman  ha scritto:

> On 10/5/2010 4:46 PM, Charles Wilson
> wrote:
> > On 10/4/2010 4:33 PM, Bill Hoffman wrote:
> >> I am trying to get
> >> a new CMake release uploaded to cygwin
> >
> > Will this include fixes for WIN32 being erroneously
> defined for cygwin?
> > http://cmake.org/Bug/view.php?id=10122
> >
> > This just bit me trying to build opencv; no, I don't
> want
> >      window_w32.cpp cvcap_vfw.cpp
> cvcap_cmu.cpp
> >      cvcap_w32.cpp cvcap_dshow.cpp
> > added to my cygwin build of opencv, since doing so
> breaks the build...
> >
> 
> No, it will not.  I don't think all of those issues
> have even been 
> resolved in the development branch of CMake due to
> backwards 
> compatibility concerns.  However, this is more of a
> discussion for the 
> CMake developer mailing list.
> 
> 
> -Bill

Hi Bill,
this is bad news. Until that fix is applied I can not use
offcial cygwin cmake to build other cygwin packages.
I am afraid that backwards compatility is breaking 
forward real usage of cmake on cygwin

Marco





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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 17:29 -0400, Bill Hoffman wrote:
> On 10/5/2010 4:46 PM, Charles Wilson wrote:
> > Will this include fixes for WIN32 being erroneously defined for cygwin?
> > http://cmake.org/Bug/view.php?id=10122
> >
> > This just bit me trying to build opencv; no, I don't want
> >      window_w32.cpp cvcap_vfw.cpp cvcap_cmu.cpp
> >      cvcap_w32.cpp cvcap_dshow.cpp
> > added to my cygwin build of opencv, since doing so breaks the build...
> 
> No, it will not.  I don't think all of those issues have even been 
> resolved in the development branch of CMake due to backwards 
> compatibility concerns.  However, this is more of a discussion for the 
> CMake developer mailing list.

Bill,

As you are aware, my CMake build in Ports contains the necessary
patches.  We (Cygwin package managers) need WIN32 to be undefined for
software to build in a *NIX/X11 mode on Cygwin, and we are not concerned
with backwards compatibility with what we perceive to be incorrect
behaviour.  Without these changes, many of us will still need to rely on
Ports' CMake, continuing the conflicts between Ports and the distro
which I am trying to eliminate.

Secondly, Qt4 has been available for some time, so cmake-gui can now be
provided.  Due to the substantial additional dependencies of Qt, this
should be a separate binary package; my .cygport shows how this can be
done.

My patches for 2.8.2 are available here:

http://cygwin-ports.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=cygwin-ports/ports;a=tree;f=devel/cmake

Regardless of the current upstream state, I must ask you to include
these patches for our distribution so that your cmake packages will be
useful to us in the meantime, until we can find a mutually agreeable
solution.


Yaakov



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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Bill Hoffman]

Really this belongs on the CMake dev list.

The new release I just posted is not really a new release of CMake, but 
it is a new release for cygwin.  The current cmake that comes with 
cygwin is 2.6.4 (very old).  The one I just uploaded was 2.8.2 (still 
old but much newer.)  It has no changes at all.

We are currently working on 2.8.3, it has some of the patches you want, 
but not all.  However, please work with me on the cmake dev list to come 
up with a solution that won't break all of the projects I support (VTK, 
ITK, and several others).

I am sure if we work together we can come up with a solution that makes 
everyone happy.   But, I would really rather have that discussion on the 
CMake developers mailing list.

(http://public.kitware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cmake-developers)

I do not want to create a cygwin release that does not match the 
upstream CMake.

Thanks.

-Bill


> Bill,
>
> As you are aware, my CMake build in Ports contains the necessary
> patches.  We (Cygwin package managers) need WIN32 to be undefined for
> software to build in a *NIX/X11 mode on Cygwin, and we are not concerned
> with backwards compatibility with what we perceive to be incorrect
> behaviour.  Without these changes, many of us will still need to rely on
> Ports' CMake, continuing the conflicts between Ports and the distro
> which I am trying to eliminate.
>
> Secondly, Qt4 has been available for some time, so cmake-gui can now be
> provided.  Due to the substantial additional dependencies of Qt, this
> should be a separate binary package; my .cygport shows how this can be
> done.
>
> My patches for 2.8.2 are available here:
>
> http://cygwin-ports.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=cygwin-ports/ports;a=tree;f=devel/cmake
>
> Regardless of the current upstream state, I must ask you to include
> these patches for our distribution so that your cmake packages will be
> useful to us in the meantime, until we can find a mutually agreeable
> solution.
>
>
> Yaakov
>
>
>
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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 18:13 -0400, Bill Hoffman wrote:
> Really this belongs on the CMake dev list.

In so much as this affects a Cygwin packages, it is perfectly on topic
here.

> The new release I just posted is not really a new release of CMake, but 
> it is a new release for cygwin.  The current cmake that comes with 
> cygwin is 2.6.4 (very old).  The one I just uploaded was 2.8.2 (still 
> old but much newer.)  It has no changes at all.

How exactly is 2.8.2 old when it is the latest official release?

> We are currently working on 2.8.3, it has some of the patches you want, 
> but not all.  However, please work with me on the cmake dev list to come 
> up with a solution that won't break all of the projects I support (VTK, 
> ITK, and several others).

That may be the long term solution, but right now we need a working
cmake, and your 2.8.2-1 isn't it.  You want WIN32 defined on Cygwin, but
*we* do not.  As so far as the Cygwin distribution is concerned,
shouldn't the views of those who make the distribution take priority?

> I do not want to create a cygwin release that does not match the 
> upstream CMake.

Unfortunately we need you to do exactly that until upstream has been
fixed.


Yaakov



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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Bill Hoffman]

On 10/7/2010 2:20 AM, Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 18:13 -0400, Bill Hoffman wrote:
>> Really this belongs on the CMake dev list.
>
> In so much as this affects a Cygwin packages, it is perfectly on topic
> here.
>
>> The new release I just posted is not really a new release of CMake, but
>> it is a new release for cygwin.  The current cmake that comes with
>> cygwin is 2.6.4 (very old).  The one I just uploaded was 2.8.2 (still
>> old but much newer.)  It has no changes at all.
>
> How exactly is 2.8.2 old when it is the latest official release?
>
>> We are currently working on 2.8.3, it has some of the patches you want,
>> but not all.  However, please work with me on the cmake dev list to come
>> up with a solution that won't break all of the projects I support (VTK,
>> ITK, and several others).
>
> That may be the long term solution, but right now we need a working
> cmake, and your 2.8.2-1 isn't it.  You want WIN32 defined on Cygwin, but
> *we* do not.  As so far as the Cygwin distribution is concerned,
> shouldn't the views of those who make the distribution take priority?
>
>> I do not want to create a cygwin release that does not match the
>> upstream CMake.
>
> Unfortunately we need you to do exactly that until upstream has been
> fixed.
>

So, I thought that I was the cmake maintainer for cygwin?  So, really I 
don't "need" to do anything.  I really don't want two version out there. 
  If someone builds CMake from source and it behaves totally different 
than the one that comes with cygwin, that IMO is a very bad thing, and 
will cause lots of confusion.  And seriously we are working on exactly 
what you want, and CMake has been like this for 10 years now, I would 
think you could be a bit more patient and give me some more time to come 
up with the correct fix.

-Bill

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Re: trouble posting to cygwin-apps

[Christopher Faylor]

On Mon, Oct 04, 2010 at 04:33:26PM -0400, Bill Hoffman wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Sorry if this is the wrong mailing list for this, but I am trying to get 
>a new CMake release uploaded to cygwin and am having some trouble.  I 
>can not seem to post messages to the cygwin-apps mailing list.  I tried 
>to re-subscribe my email address, but it correctly said I was already 
>subscribed.   Is there anyone on this list that could help me?

As I said in response to your message to postmaster of Sep 30 - you were
sending html email.  Apparently the bounce (and the reply from postmaster)
which informed you of that fact were caught in your spam filter.

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