please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged fashion

please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged fashion

[Kenneth Wolcott]

Hi;

please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for
32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged
fashion

I noticed cgf's "mirrored" cgwin installation for 64-bit and 32-bit
Cygwin: very nice.

Now, you guys might think I'm 100% nuts, but I download *everything*
and install *everything* from Cygwin, although there is very little
that I configure (I use the applications out-of-the-box).  [for
example, I never have configured an ssh server on Cygwin].

So, not all of the Cygwin packages are 64-bit yet (looking forward to that day).

So, what I would like to do is:

1. download all 64-bit packages;
2. download all 32-bit packages that aren't already represented in 64-bit form;
3. somehow install so that I have everything from both #1 and #2;

I could do the following:

1. Download all of the 64-bit Cygwin packages;
2. Download all of the 32-bit packages (inefficient, but the command
line install is hard to program);
3. Delete all 32-bit packages that are represented in the 64-bit download;
4. modify the text file (?) installed_db?
5. Install from the download directory the 64-bit products;
6. install from the download directory the 32-bit products;

Now, is there a better way to do this?

Another thought that I had was that I would have two distinct Cygwin
installations, one fully 64-bit and the other one would be fully
32-bit.

I guess what I'd like to have is a hybrid of cgf's method and the
combination of two distinct Cygwin installations, one 32-bit and the
other 64-bit.

Thanks,
Ken Wolcott

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Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged fashion

[marco atzeri]

Il 7/27/2013 5:18 AM, Kenneth Wolcott ha scritto:
> Hi;
>
> please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for
> 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged
> fashion

there is no merged way.
The 32bit and the 64bit could be installed in different directory
but NOT in the same one.

>
> Thanks,
> Ken Wolcott
>


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Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged fashion

[Kenneth Wolcott]

On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:42 PM, marco atzeri <marco.atzeri@gmail.com> wrote:
> Il 7/27/2013 5:18 AM, Kenneth Wolcott ha scritto:
>
>> Hi;
>>
>> please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for
>> 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged
>> fashion
>
>
> there is no merged way.
> The 32bit and the 64bit could be installed in different directory
> but NOT in the same one.

Hi Marco;

  Thanks for your reply.

  I guess I will somehow modify my PATH so that I have
/cygdrive/c/cygwin64/usr/bin and /cygdrive/c/cygwin32/usr/bin
(although I don't think that will work exactly like that).  Some fstab
magic?  Some symlink magic?

  I will continue experimenting.

Thanks,
Ken Wolcott

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Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged fashion

[LRN]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 27.07.2013 09:17, Kenneth Wolcott wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:42 PM, marco atzeri <marco.atzeri@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Il 7/27/2013 5:18 AM, Kenneth Wolcott ha scritto:
>>
>>> Hi;
>>>
>>> please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for
>>> 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged
>>> fashion
>>
>>
>> there is no merged way.
>> The 32bit and the 64bit could be installed in different directory
>> but NOT in the same one.
> 
> Hi Marco;
> 
>   Thanks for your reply.
> 
>   I guess I will somehow modify my PATH so that I have
> /cygdrive/c/cygwin64/usr/bin and /cygdrive/c/cygwin32/usr/bin
> (although I don't think that will work exactly like that).  Some fstab
> magic?  Some symlink magic?
> 
>   I will continue experimenting.

Try this:
run %ComSpec%

> mklink /D %SystemRoot%\System32\cygwin c:\cygwin64
> mklink /D %SystemRoot%\SysWOW64\cygwin c:\cygwin32

Then edit your user envrionment valriable table and add
%SystemRoot%\System32\cygwin\bin to PATH.

This way you will run 32-bit cygwin programs from 32-bit programs, and
64-bit programs from 64-bit programs.

That is, if you start c:\windows\system32\cmd.exe, it'll run 64-bit
apps, while c:\windows\syswow64\cmd.exe will only run 32-bit apps.

Obviously, you need to set up symlinks as Administrator, or give
yourself the SeCreateSymbolicLinkPrivilege privilege. Changing the
contents of system directories might also require you to be the
Administrator (not sure).

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Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged fashion

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, LRN!

> Try this:
> run %ComSpec%

>> mklink /D %SystemRoot%\System32\cygwin c:\cygwin64
>> mklink /D %SystemRoot%\SysWOW64\cygwin c:\cygwin32

> Then edit your user envrionment valriable table and add
> %SystemRoot%\System32\cygwin\bin to PATH.

> This way you will run 32-bit cygwin programs from 32-bit programs, and
> 64-bit programs from 64-bit programs.

That raise a question. Isn't 32-bit Cygwin apps compiled 64-bit aware?

> That is, if you start c:\windows\system32\cmd.exe, it'll run 64-bit
> apps, while c:\windows\syswow64\cmd.exe will only run 32-bit apps.

> Obviously, you need to set up symlinks as Administrator, or give
> yourself the SeCreateSymbolicLinkPrivilege privilege. Changing the
> contents of system directories might also require you to be the
> Administrator (not sure).


--
WBR,
Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@freemail.ru) 27.07.2013, <10:10>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged fashion

[LRN]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 27.07.2013 10:11, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, LRN!
> 
>> Try this:
>> run %ComSpec%
> 
>>> mklink /D %SystemRoot%\System32\cygwin c:\cygwin64
>>> mklink /D %SystemRoot%\SysWOW64\cygwin c:\cygwin32
> 
>> Then edit your user envrionment valriable table and add
>> %SystemRoot%\System32\cygwin\bin to PATH.
> 
>> This way you will run 32-bit cygwin programs from 32-bit programs, and
>> 64-bit programs from 64-bit programs.
> 
> That raise a question. Isn't 32-bit Cygwin apps compiled 64-bit aware?

> notepad c:\Windows\System32\this-is-system32.txt
Ctrl+S

> notepad c:\windows\syswow64\this-is-syswow64.txt
Ctrl+S

$ ls -l /cygdrive/c/windows/system32 | grep this-is
- -rwx------+  1 Administrators   None                    0 Jul 27 05:19
this-is-syswow64.txt

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Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged fashion

[marco atzeri]

Il 7/27/2013 7:17 AM, Kenneth Wolcott ha scritto:
> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:42 PM, marco atzeri <marco.atzeri@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Il 7/27/2013 5:18 AM, Kenneth Wolcott ha scritto:
>>
>>> Hi;
>>>
>>> please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for
>>> 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged
>>> fashion
>>
>>
>> there is no merged way.
>> The 32bit and the 64bit could be installed in different directory
>> but NOT in the same one.
>
> Hi Marco;
>
>    Thanks for your reply.
>
>    I guess I will somehow modify my PATH so that I have
> /cygdrive/c/cygwin64/usr/bin and /cygdrive/c/cygwin32/usr/bin
> (although I don't think that will work exactly like that).  Some fstab
> magic?  Some symlink magic?

mixing will not work as the dll's are called in the same way

64 $ file cygwin1.dll
cygwin1.dll: PE32+ executable (DLL) (console) x86-64, for MS Windows

$ file cygwin1.dll
cygwin1.dll: PE32 executable (DLL) (console) Intel 80386, for MS Windows

>
>    I will continue experimenting.
>
> Thanks,
> Ken Wolcott
>

Marco



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Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged fashion

[Warren Young]

On 7/26/2013 23:44, marco atzeri wrote:
> Il 7/27/2013 7:17 AM, Kenneth Wolcott ha scritto:
>>
>>    I guess I will somehow modify my PATH so that I have
>> /cygdrive/c/cygwin64/usr/bin and /cygdrive/c/cygwin32/usr/bin
>
> mixing will not work as the dll's are called in the same way

Just to emphasize: if both 32- and 64-bit Cygwin bin dirs are in your 
PATH at the same time, you will get complaints in the terminal window 
every time you try to run a 32-bit Cygwin program while in a 64-bit 
mintty shell, or vice versa.

The most likely reason this will happen is that the package set in both 
Cygwins isn't the same.

This could be fixed, but it wouldn't be trivial:

1. Rename the 64-bit cygwin1.dll; say, cygwin2.dll.  (It's not that wild 
an idea.  The ABI *is* different between 32- and 64-bit versions.)

2. Teach setup.exe how to install packages of both bitnesses at the same 
time.  You'd end up with something like many Linuxes: /bin and /bin64, 
/lib and /lib64.

3. Teach cygport how to build and configure both bitnesses at the same 
time.  This is nontrivial in itself.

Having done all that, you still don't end up with a completely 
integrated pair of Cygwins, since they aren't going to have any shared 
in-memory data structures.  (Separate cygheaps.)  You couldn't pass a 
file handle from a 32-bit Cygwin program to a 64-bit Cygwin program, for 
example.

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Re: having 1 set of non-bin files w/separate {bin,lib}[32/64)? (was Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list ...)

[Warren Young]

On 7/31/2013 17:54, Linda Walsh wrote:
> Warren Young wrote:
>>
>> Just to emphasize: if both 32- and 64-bit Cygwin bin dirs are in your
>> PATH at the same time, you will get complaints in the terminal window
> ------
>      Ok, but would it be desirable (or wouldn't it be)
> to have only 1 /etc, /var, /home? dir,

Sure.  But what's stopping you from doing that today?  Symlinks work 
just fine across the /cygdrive boundary separating your Cygwins.

I keep very little in /home, mainly just dot files and symlinks into 
/cygdrive/c/Users/mylogin.  The actual data I keep under c:\Users.  That 
is, ~mylogin/Documents is a symlink to My Documents, etc.  Similar for 
Pictures, Downloads, AppData, ...

I have a bunch of scripts I've written in ~/bin, but those get checked 
into a local Subversion repository, so I can keep those updated across 
Cygwins easily enough.  Ditto with compiled programs I've written: just 
check out and rebuild on the other Cygwin when they change.

> then maybe in your bashrc have
> it do a cygmount or create a softlinke from /bin32 -> /bin or /bin64->/bin
> (and same for lib)?

You can't just merge the two bin/lib dirs.  The executable names 
conflict.  My solution involving a "cygwin2.dll" is the only solution I 
see.  And again, it's packed with potential pain.

>      I don't think it will turn out well to try to have people
> maintain 2 sets of configuration files...

People have been inventing new ways to keep /etc synchronized for 
decades.  Most relevant to Cygwin today are symlinks, etckeeper, 
Puppet/Chef/Cfengine, YourFavoriteVCS...

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Re: having 1 set of non-bin files w/separate {bin,lib}[32/64)? (was Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list ...)

[Linda Walsh]

Warren Young wrote:
>> then maybe in your bashrc have
>> it do a cygmount or create a softlinke from /bin32 -> /bin or 
>> /bin64->/bin
>> (and same for lib)?
> 
> You can't just merge the two bin/lib dirs.  The executable names 
> conflict.  My solution involving a "cygwin2.dll" is the only solution I 
> see.  And again, it's packed with potential pain.
---
Sorry, didn't mean to be misunderstood ;-).

I meant if something (pie in the sky?) in a bash startup script
(maybe always running out of the 32-bit dir for arguments sake),
could mount directories ... neh....only if everything was running
32/64... windows only implemented redirection insides the /windows
folder...

hmmm...
so if one put the cygwin 32-bit binaries under /windows/syswow64
and the 64-bit binaries under /windows/sysnative (as seen by 32bit)
or system32 when running 64, then a program would always be
able to refer to say, /windows/system32/cygwin/{bin,lib} as hard
paths -- and 32-bit binaries would always be redirected to /windows/syswow64
while 64-bit binaries would really access the stuff natively/directly.

It seems to be the only reliable 32-bit redirection -- and MS chose to put
it in the /windows dir... so they must want customers to put anything needing
that feature in that dir...right?? ;-)  Oi...

Seriously, it might not be the most loved location, but it is the only one
that would work and allow auto translation.

A link made with mklink forms a symlink, so they could be used to point at
the dir location under system32 ... but 32-bit processes would be autodirected to
the syswow64 dir....

Dang... nowif you can think of another way to do it automatically and not
change names etc...

It might be possible to just put symlinks in system32 and syswow, that would
be seen by 64-bit and 32-bit procs that point to real dirs located in the
root of the vol (/cygwin or /...)...that likely would be better -- less junk
in the windir... but the links would still have to travel through the redirector.


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Re: having 1 set of non-bin files w/separate {bin,lib}[32/64)? (was Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list ...)

[Earnie Boyd]

On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:

Hello Linda,

>
> It seems to be the only reliable 32-bit redirection -- and MS chose to put
> it in the /windows dir... so they must want customers to put anything
> needing
> that feature in that dir...right?? ;-)  Oi...
>

Absolutely not what MS intended for the /windows directory.  That is
the OS directory and only MS installations should use it.

The /"Program Files" (64bit) and /"Program Files (x86)" (32bit)
directories are where MS directs developers to put their binaries.
However we don't like spaces in path names so this isn't a good
location.

However you the user have a choice of where to put things.  Frankly, I
would use /cygwin and /cygwin32 to segregate similar to what MS did
for Windows but that is just me.  The one thing with Cygwin you need
to be careful of is that 32bit binaries need the 32bit DLL and mixing
and matching may cause you no end of grief.

-- 
Earnie
-- https://sites.google.com/site/earnieboyd

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Re: having 1 set of non-bin files w/separate {bin,lib}[32/64)? (was Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list ...)

[Linda Walsh]

Earnie Boyd wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
> 
> Hello Linda,
> 
>> It seems to be the only reliable 32-bit redirection -- and MS chose to put
>> it in the /windows dir... so they must want customers to put anything
>> needing
>> that feature in that dir...right?? ;-)  Oi...

> Absolutely not what MS intended for the /windows directory.  That is
> the OS directory and only MS installations should use it.
----
		Sorry, I assume you did catch the irony.
> 
> The /"Program Files" (64bit) and /"Program Files (x86)" (32bit)
> directories are where MS directs developers to put their binaries.
> However we don't like spaces in path names so this isn't a good
> location.
---
	Which is why you create /prog->one /prog{32,64}->point to the other
as mklink /d symlinks in the root of the fs.


> 
> However you the user have a choice of where to put things.  Frankly, I
> would use /cygwin and /cygwin32 
----
	And how does that get you the autoredirection I suggested with
the links in Windows/syswow64 and windows/system32?




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Re: having 1 set of non-bin files w/separate {bin,lib}[32/64)? (was Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list ...)

[Earnie Boyd]

On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 10:19 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:
> Earnie Boyd wrote:
>>
>> However you the user have a choice of where to put things.  Frankly, I
>> would use /cygwin and /cygwin32
>
> ----
>         And how does that get you the autoredirection I suggested with
> the links in Windows/syswow64 and windows/system32?

You can't you have to segregate the environments.  You don't want to
touch Windows system directories even to put Windows symlinks.

You have two differing systems which can be controlled from the
Desktop via iconed shortcuts that starts one or the other.  Windows is
smart enough to know when you have a 64bit executable and when you
don't.  However, you don't want to clash the Cygwin runtime DLL (this
is true of two Cygwin DLL with the same bitness as well) but you may
get away with forking a 32bit Cygwin process from a 64bit Cygwin
process as long as the two environments are autonomous.  But I
wouldn't count on it not giving issues.

-- 
Earnie
-- https://sites.google.com/site/earnieboyd

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Re: having 1 set of non-bin files w/separate {bin,lib}[32/64)? (was Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list ...)

[Linda Walsh]

Earnie Boyd wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 10:19 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:
>> Earnie Boyd wrote:
>>> However you the user have a choice of where to put things.  Frankly, I
>>> would use /cygwin and /cygwin32
>> ----
>>         And how does that get you the autoredirection I suggested with
>> the links in Windows/syswow64 and windows/system32?
> 
> You can't you have to segregate the environments.  You don't want to
> touch Windows system directories even to put Windows symlinks.
===
Why not?

> 
> You have two differing systems which can be controlled from the
> Desktop via iconed shortcuts that starts one or the other.  Windows is
> smart enough to know when you have a 64bit executable and when you
> don't. 
---

?!?   how would it link with 32-bit or 64-bit libraries which are both
in the path of "C:\windows\system32"?

When you are running under 32-win, you are running in the sysWOW64 subsystem
which maps 32-bit calls to the C:\windows\syswow64 directory.

I.e. if you look in 32-bit bash at C:\windows\system32, you are seeing
the syswow64 directory.

If you look in a 64-bit cmd.exe or bash at C:\windows\system32 you are seeing
the real thing.

For 32-bit apps that understand 64-bit paths, their is another virtual link
at C:\windows\sysnative that is only visible when you run under 32-bit win
and points to the real (64bit) C:\windows\system32 (which is full of 64-bit apps
on the real filesystem).

How do you think windows has all the libraries be the same name & path on  32-bit
windows and 64-bit windows?

That virtualization is supported EVEN if you have redirect-on-error turned off,
and even if you have UAC turned off -- it's built into the kernel -- but as
such, it isn't usable EXCEPT through those pathnames.

That means if you want to put a driver in C:\windows\system32 as a 32 bit driver
it will end up physically in C:\windows\syswow64, and if you are 64-bit driver,
you will end up in the real dir, but a win32 process will see the 64-bit driver
file under C:\windows\sysnative.

It is the only redirection that works when all others are turned off.

If you know of another, fine.  But to say not to use it when it is the only
method that could work transparently is ridiculous.


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Re: please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged fashion

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Kenneth Wolcott!

> please update the supported Cygwin package list to be distinct for
> 32-bit, 64-bit or both; and help on how install both in a merged
> fashion

> I noticed cgf's "mirrored" cgwin installation for 64-bit and 32-bit
> Cygwin: very nice.

> Now, you guys might think I'm 100% nuts, but I download *everything*
> and install *everything* from Cygwin, although there is very little
> that I configure (I use the applications out-of-the-box).  [for
> example, I never have configured an ssh server on Cygwin].

> So, not all of the Cygwin packages are 64-bit yet (looking forward to that day).

> So, what I would like to do is:

> 1. download all 64-bit packages;
> 2. download all 32-bit packages that aren't already represented in 64-bit form;
> 3. somehow install so that I have everything from both #1 and #2;

That's not how things are supposed to work. And all the necessary packages
will eventually be updated to 64-bit, or obsoleted/removed.

The very simple reason is that you can't load 64-bit DLL into 32-bit process
without much fiddling around.

> I could do the following:

> 1. Download all of the 64-bit Cygwin packages;
> 2. Download all of the 32-bit packages (inefficient, but the command
> line install is hard to program);
> 3. Delete all 32-bit packages that are represented in the 64-bit download;
> 4. modify the text file (?) installed_db?
> 5. Install from the download directory the 64-bit products;
> 6. install from the download directory the 32-bit products;

> Now, is there a better way to do this?

> Another thought that I had was that I would have two distinct Cygwin
> installations, one fully 64-bit and the other one would be fully
> 32-bit.

> I guess what I'd like to have is a hybrid of cgf's method and the
> combination of two distinct Cygwin installations, one 32-bit and the
> other 64-bit.

You can just use 32-bit installation, if 64-bit is missing anything you're
using daily. I see no issues.


--
WBR,
Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@freemail.ru) 27.07.2013, <09:10>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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