Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Warren Young]

When attempting to uninstall packages with setup.exe, you can get 
messages like this in the dependency resolution step:

    gvfs	(1.16.4-1)
	GNOME virtual filesystem
	Required by: dconf-service

So, you go back a screen, tell setup.exe to uninstall dconf-service, 
too, but get the same message when you try to move forward again.

What's happening here is that something *else* wants dconf-service.  By 
that logic, gvfs is still required.

setup.exe is correct here, but it is not being helpful.

I propose that the code that generates this message first check whether 
all packages named in the block are scheduled for removal.  If so, 
either don't insert that block into the text box, or insert it at the end.

The idea is that you want the first such block in the text box to be 
something the user can actually do something about.

I've run into this after installing everything yesterday for my "size of 
Cygwin" research project.  Now I'm trying to remove most of that piece 
by piece, but I keep getting tangled in dependency webs.

If you doubt the value of this idea, consider the following setup.exe 
output.  Which string is it telling me to pull next?




dbus	(1.6.16-1)
	Freedesktop message bus system
	Required by: avahi, libdbus1_3, dconf-service

dconf-service	(0.16.1-1)
	GNOME configuration system
	Required by: libgtk3_0

gcr	(3.8.2-1)
	GNOME cryptography framework
	Required by: gnome-keyring

girepository-GLib2.0	(1.36.0-1)
	GLib GObjectIntrospection data
	Required by: python-gi

glib2.0-networking	(2.36.2-1)
	GIO networking modules
	Required by: libsoup2.4_1

gnome-icon-theme	(3.8.3-1)
	GNOME desktop icon theme
	Required by: libgtk2.0_0, libgtk3_0

gnome-keyring	(3.8.2-1)
	GNOME Desktop password management system
	Required by: libsecret1_0

gsettings-desktop-schemas	(3.8.2-1)
	GNOME desktop GSettings schemas
	Required by: libglib2.0_0

gtk-update-icon-cache	(3.8.8-1)
	GTK+ icon theme cache utility
	Required by: libgtk2.0_0, libgtk3_0

gvfs	(1.16.4-1)
	GNOME virtual filesystem
	Required by: dconf-service

libavahi-glib1	(0.6.31-2)
	MDNS/DNS_SD/Zeroconf implementation (GLib runtime)
	Required by: gvfs

libcroco0.6_3	(0.6.8-1)
	GNOME CSS parser library (runtime)
	Required by: librsvg2_2

libdbus-glib_1_2	(0.100-1)
	FreeDesktop application message bus (GLib bindings)
	Required by: python-dbus

libgdk_pixbuf2.0-devel	(2.28.2-1)
	GNOME image loading library (development)
	Required by: libgtk2.0-devel, libgtk3-devel

libgdk_pixbuf2.0_0	(2.28.2-1)
	GNOME image loading library (runtime)
	Required by: gvim, libgcr3_1, libmng-contrib, qiv, rxvt-unicode-X, 
libgtk2.0_0, libgtk3_0, librsvg2_2, gtk-update-icon-cache, 
libgdk_pixbuf2.0-devel

libgirepository1.0_1	(1.36.0-1)
	GObject Introspection library (runtime)
	Required by: python-gi

libglib1.2-devel	(1.2.10-12)
	GNOME 1.x C function library
	Required by: xdelta-devel

libglib1.2_0	(1.2.10-12)
	GNOME 1.x C function library
	Required by: libxdelta2, xdelta, libgtk1.2_0, libglib1.2-devel

libglib2.0-devel	(2.36.4-4)
	GNOME core C function library (development)
	Required by: libatk-bridge2.0-devel, libatk1.0-devel, libatspi-devel, 
libcairo-devel, libgck1-devel, libgcr3-devel, libgsf1-devel, 
libharfbuzz-devel, libpango1.0-devel, libsoup2.4-devel, 
libvala0.20-devel, libgtk2.0-devel, libgtk3-devel, libgdk_pixbuf2.0-devel

libglib2.0_0	(2.36.4-4)
	GNOME core C function library (runtime)
	Required by: R, amanda, at-spi2-core, desktop-file-utils, enchant, 
gamin, gnuplot, gvim, harfbuzz, irssi, libatk-bridge2.0_0, libatk1.0_0, 
libatspi0, libcairo2, libenchant-devel, libenchant1, libgailutil18, 
libgailutil3_0, libgck1_0, libgcr3_1, libgsf1_114, libharfbuzz0, 
libmng-contrib, libpango1.0_0, libsoup2.4_1, libvala0.20_0, mc, qiv, 
shared-mime-info, syslog-ng, libMagickCore5, libgdk_pixbuf2.0_0, 
libgtk2.0_0, libglib2.0-devel, libgtk3_0, glib2.0-networking, 
python-dbus, librsvg2_2, gsettings-desktop-schemas, 
gtk-update-icon-cache, libgdk_pixbuf2.0-devel, dconf-service, 
libdbus-glib_1_2, python-gi, python-gobject, libcroco0.6_3, gvfs, 
libgirepository1.0_1, girepository-GLib2.0, libavahi-glib1, 
libsecret1_0, libsoup-gnome2.4_1, gnome-keyring, gcr

libgtk1.2_0	(1.2.10-12)
	Gimp Toolkit GUI library (version 1.2)
	Required by: singular-surf

libgtk2.0-devel	(2.24.22-1)
	GTK+ X11 GUI toolkit (development)
	Required by: libgailutil-devel

libgtk2.0_0	(2.24.22-1)
	GTK+ X11 GUI toolkit (runtime)
	Required by: gvim, libgailutil18, libmng-contrib, qiv, libgtk2.0-devel

libgtk3-devel	(3.8.8-1)
	GTK+ X11 GUI toolkit (development)
	Required by: libgailutil3-devel, libgcr3-devel

libgtk3_0	(3.8.8-1)
	GTK+ X11 GUI toolkit (runtime)
	Required by: libgailutil3_0, libgcr3_1, libgtk3-devel, gvfs, 
gnome-keyring, gcr

libMagick-devel	(6.7.6.3-3)
	Image manipulation software suite (development)
	Required by: libautotrace-devel, pstoedit-devel

libMagickCore5	(6.7.6.3-3)
	Image manipulation software suite (runtime)
	Required by: ImageMagick, libautotrace3, libpstoedit0, 
perl-Image-Magick, libMagick-devel

libpulse0	(2.1-1)
	PulseAudio client library
	Required by: libcanberra0

librsvg2_2	(2.36.4-1)
	GNOME Scalable Vector Graphics library (runtime)
	Required by: libMagickCore5

libsecret1_0	(0.15-1)
	GObject secrets client library
	Required by: gvfs

libsoup-gnome2.4_1	(2.42.3.1-1)
	GNOME HTTP library
	Required by: gvfs

python-dbus	(1.2.0-1)
	Python dbus bindings
	Required by: python-avahi

python-gi	(3.8.3-1)
	Python GObject Introspection bindings
	Required by: python-dbus

python-gi-common	(3.8.3-1)
	Python GObject Introspection bindings
	Required by: python-gi

python-gobject	(2.28.6-5)
	Python GLib/GObject/GIO bindings
	Required by: python-dbus






Most of these packages are actually scheduled for uninstallation at this 
point.  My process so far has been to scan through the list looking for 
names that have appeared since the last attempt, on the theory that 
they're naming packages farther up the dependency graph.

Unraveling cloth by pulling strings isn't the right metaphor.  No, it's 
more like playing Jenga against an evil robot.

I'm about to give up, install Cygwin to a new directory, then try and 
merge in my old configuration.  (/home, /usr/local, /etc...  <groan>)

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Warren Young]

Alternate idea:

If all of the changes requested on the previous screen are "Uninstall" 
(i.e. everything else is "Keep" or "Skip"), invert the current 
dependency tree walking logic.  That is, have setup.exe find out which 
packages must be removed to satisfy the changes requested on the 
previous screen.

"Look, buddy, if you remove that package, I gotta remove these 84 other 
packages, too: {foo, bar, baz...}  Are you really really sure you want 
me to do that?"

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Larry Hall (Cygwin)]

On 1/21/2014 7:44 PM, Warren Young wrote:
> Alternate idea:
>
> If all of the changes requested on the previous screen are "Uninstall" (i.e.
> everything else is "Keep" or "Skip"), invert the current dependency tree
> walking logic.  That is, have setup.exe find out which packages must be
> removed to satisfy the changes requested on the previous screen.
>
> "Look, buddy, if you remove that package, I gotta remove these 84 other
> packages, too: {foo, bar, baz...}  Are you really really sure you want me to
> do that?"

Yes, this is a known limitation of the current setup source.  It falls
under category of http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#SHTDI. After all, it sounds
like fun, right? ;-)


-- 
Larry

_____________________________________________________________________

A: Yes.
 > Q: Are you sure?
 >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
 >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 08:02:41PM -0500, Larry Hall (Cygwin) wrote:
>On 1/21/2014 7:44 PM, Warren Young wrote:
>> Alternate idea:
>>
>> If all of the changes requested on the previous screen are "Uninstall" (i.e.
>> everything else is "Keep" or "Skip"), invert the current dependency tree
>> walking logic.  That is, have setup.exe find out which packages must be
>> removed to satisfy the changes requested on the previous screen.
>>
>> "Look, buddy, if you remove that package, I gotta remove these 84 other
>> packages, too: {foo, bar, baz...}  Are you really really sure you want me to
>> do that?"
>
>Yes, this is a known limitation of the current setup source.  It falls
>under category of http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#SHTDI. After all, it sounds
>like fun, right? ;-)

I think Corinna mentioned that she was going to get to this next
Thursday or possibly I'm misremembering and she was going to complete
work on an AI which passed the Turing Test.  I can't, for the life of
me, remember which it was.  Or maybe she was going to get help her
neighbor shampoo their cat?  That may have been it.

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Corinna Vinschen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1813 bytes --]

On Jan 22 01:02, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 08:02:41PM -0500, Larry Hall (Cygwin) wrote:
> >On 1/21/2014 7:44 PM, Warren Young wrote:
> >> Alternate idea:
> >>
> >> If all of the changes requested on the previous screen are "Uninstall" (i.e.
> >> everything else is "Keep" or "Skip"), invert the current dependency tree
> >> walking logic.  That is, have setup.exe find out which packages must be
> >> removed to satisfy the changes requested on the previous screen.
> >>
> >> "Look, buddy, if you remove that package, I gotta remove these 84 other
> >> packages, too: {foo, bar, baz...}  Are you really really sure you want me to
> >> do that?"
> >
> >Yes, this is a known limitation of the current setup source.  It falls
> >under category of http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#SHTDI. After all, it sounds
> >like fun, right? ;-)
> 
> I think Corinna mentioned that she was going to get to this next
> Thursday or possibly I'm misremembering and she was going to complete
> work on an AI which passed the Turing Test.  I can't, for the life of
> me, remember which it was.  Or maybe she was going to get help her
> neighbor shampoo their cat?  That may have been it.

Actually I'm working on a method to get rid of /etc/passwd and
/etc/group.  I have a partially working implementation now, which
generates passwd and group entries by fetching the infos from Windows on
the fly, compatible to the uids/gids and user/group names to
SFU/Interix.

It's already working nicely, but it's still lacking if you try to do
stuff like chmod or chown or, FWIW, ssh into the machine.  It's still a
lot to do.


Corinna

-- 
Corinna Vinschen                  Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Maintainer                 cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Red Hat

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!

> Actually I'm working on a method to get rid of /etc/passwd and
> /etc/group.  I have a partially working implementation now, which
> generates passwd and group entries by fetching the infos from Windows on
> the fly, compatible to the uids/gids and user/group names to
> SFU/Interix.

**jawdrop**

> It's already working nicely, but it's still lacking if you try to do
> stuff like chmod or chown or, FWIW, ssh into the machine.  It's still a
> lot to do.

Still, a shocking progress.


--
WBR,
Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@yandex.ru) 23.01.2014, <20:31>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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RE: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Thrall, Bryan]

Corinna Vinschen wrote on 2014-01-22:
> Actually I'm working on a method to get rid of /etc/passwd and
> /etc/group.  I have a partially working implementation now, which
> generates passwd and group entries by fetching the infos from Windows on
> the fly, compatible to the uids/gids and user/group names to SFU/Interix.

That's a really cool change. How will I customize my Cygwin user name (for convenient 'ssh server' instead of 'ssh user@server') and shell without /etc/passwd, though? (I'd include home directory in that list, except I know I can just set $HOME)

Thanks!
--
Bryan Thrall
Principal Software Engineer
FlightSafety International • Visual Simulation Systems • 5695 Campus Parkway  • Hazelwood, MO 63042
Tel: (314) 551-8413 • Fax: (314) 551-8444
bryan.thrall@flightsafety.com • www.flightsafety.com • A Berkshire Hathaway company

Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Thrall, Bryan!

>> Actually I'm working on a method to get rid of /etc/passwd and
>> /etc/group.  I have a partially working implementation now, which
>> generates passwd and group entries by fetching the infos from Windows on
>> the fly, compatible to the uids/gids and user/group names to SFU/Interix.

> That's a really cool change. How will I customize my Cygwin user name (for
> convenient 'ssh server' instead of 'ssh user@server') and shell without
> /etc/passwd, though? (I'd include home directory  
> in that list, except I know I can just set $HOME)

You can set $USER the same way, you know?
But that's a wrong way to go. IMO.
You are supposed to be yourself, means, your login name.
Else you'd have alot of stuff mishandled.

But the change is indeed good.
I hope that would solve the user/group encoding issues when using terminals
with different charset.


--
WBR,
Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@yandex.ru) 23.01.2014, <21:12>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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RE: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Thrall, Bryan]

Andrey Repin wrote on 2014-01-23:
>>> Actually I'm working on a method to get rid of /etc/passwd and
>>> /etc/group.  I have a partially working implementation now, which
>>> generates passwd and group entries by fetching the infos from
Windows
>>> on the fly, compatible to the uids/gids and user/group names to
>>> SFU/Interix.
> 
>> That's a really cool change. How will I customize my Cygwin user name
(for
>> convenient 'ssh server' instead of 'ssh user@server') and shell
without
>> /etc/passwd, though? (I'd include home directory
>> in that list, except I know I can just set $HOME)
> 
> You can set $USER the same way, you know?

Ah, that's nice, I'll have to try it. :-)

> But that's a wrong way to go. IMO.
> You are supposed to be yourself, means, your login name.
> Else you'd have alot of stuff mishandled.

The user I use is myself, it is just that at my company, my login name
on the servers isn't the same as my Windows login name.

I haven't noticed anything mishandled, though. Do you have any specific
problems in mind?

--
Bryan Thrall
Principal Software Engineer
FlightSafety International * Visual Simulation Systems * 5695 Campus
Parkway  * Hazelwood, MO 63042
Tel: (314) 551-8413 * Fax: (314) 551-8444
bryan.thrall@flightsafety.com * www.flightsafety.com * A Berkshire
Hathaway company



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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Corinna Vinschen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1567 bytes --]

On Jan 23 11:01, Thrall, Bryan wrote:
> Corinna Vinschen wrote on 2014-01-22:
> > Actually I'm working on a method to get rid of /etc/passwd and
> > /etc/group.  I have a partially working implementation now, which
> > generates passwd and group entries by fetching the infos from Windows on
> > the fly, compatible to the uids/gids and user/group names to SFU/Interix.
> 
> That's a really cool change. How will I customize my Cygwin user name (for convenient 'ssh server' instead of 'ssh user@server') and shell without /etc/passwd, though? (I'd include home directory in that list, except I know I can just set $HOME)

The idea is that local /etc/passwd and /etc/group file takes precedence.
If you have passwd and group entries matching your SIDs, Cygwin won't
ask Windows for them.

The bigger picture is to allow system admins to set this up via AD.  The
easiest (and home-user friendliest) way is to utilize the description
and homedir fields in the AD or local SAM user entries to configure
another username, the shell, and the homedir.

As far as AD is concerned, I'm mulling over the idea to fetch the
information for all this from the UNIX attributes, but that requires to
access AD via ADSI, afaik, so it's something for later.  I'm also not
quite sure if the UNIX attributes are only available after installing
the "Identity Management for UNIX" role on the server...


Corinna

-- 
Corinna Vinschen                  Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Maintainer                 cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Red Hat

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Warren Young]

On 1/21/2014 23:02, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>
> I think Corinna mentioned that she was going to get to this next
> Thursday or possibly I'm misremembering and she was going to complete
> work on an AI which passed the Turing Test.  I can't, for the life of
> me, remember which it was.  Or maybe she was going to get help her
> neighbor shampoo their cat?  That may have been it.

I thought you were co-leader of this project, Chris.  A leader is 
someone who gets other people to go where he already wanted to go.  Your 
reply doesn't make me want to go anywhere, except maybe "away".

Let's start over.

Warren: setup.exe has behavior X, which sucks, and I have three ideas 
for how it could be made to work better.

Chris: Yes, I've run into that myself, so I worked out a plan for fixing 
it.  It's in the Wishlist document over here, but I haven't gotten 
around to it.  Do you want to try and tackle that?

or, Chris: Contributor Y already tried to fix that, and it didn't work. 
  The crashed remains of the effort are in this thread: http...  Maybe 
you can put the pieces back together and get it flying.

or, Chris: Your first two ideas still leave a mess in that dialog.  I 
like your third idea better.  If you look in winsup/setup/foo/qux.cpp, 
you'll find the bar() routine that currently builds this dependency 
list.  I think if you zorch the frobniz and invert the blatz, you can 
make it build the package set you're talking about.  Then feed the list 
back into the garply() routine after the user accepts the plan, and 
it'll uninstall the whole set.

Each alternative is positive and gives a path forward.

If I take the path, you're more likely to accept my patch the first time 
around, because you've had a say in the planning of it.

If someone else takes the path instead, you will have turned an 
annoyance (me) into a catalyst.

If no one takes the path, at least you've published the current answer 
to the problem.  Is that not a better use of your time than composing 
sarcastic brush-off replies?

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Christopher Faylor]

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 02:04:01PM -0700, Warren Young wrote:
>On 1/21/2014 23:02, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>I think Corinna mentioned that she was going to get to this next
>>Thursday or possibly I'm misremembering and she was going to complete
>>work on an AI which passed the Turing Test.  I can't, for the life of
>>me, remember which it was.  Or maybe she was going to get help her
>>neighbor shampoo their cat?  That may have been it.
>
>I thought you were co-leader of this project, Chris.  A leader is
>someone who gets other people to go where he already wanted to go.
>Your reply doesn't make me want to go anywhere, except maybe "away".

If you were actually volunteering to do something then it wasn't made
clear by your long email or in your lack of response to Larry's SHTDI.
Because of a humorous comment that Corinna made months ago, I've gotten
into the habit of remarking about cats and Thursdays when someone
proposes work for someone else to do.  If I was mistaken about your
intentions, then please send a proposal about how you want to
restructure the setup.exe code to cygwin-apps.  Or even just sent a
patch.

FYI, I have no interests in working on this issue myself or in
brainstorming about it.

cgf

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Warren Young]

On 1/22/2014 18:13, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> If you were actually volunteering to do something then it wasn't made
> clear by your long email or in your lack of response to Larry's SHTDI.

I'm not going to volunteer until I have some concept of the scope of 
work, and some idea of how you'd want the problem solved.  That's why it 
would have been better if your reply had given me some guidance.

Maybe I should be flattered that you think I can just jump into the 
middle of the single most complicated part of setup.exe, its very core, 
and not only figure out a way to solve my issue, but to actually solve 
it in a way that's going to be accepted.

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Cliff Hones]

On 23/01/2014 14:36, Warren Young wrote:
> On 1/22/2014 18:13, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> If you were actually volunteering to do something then it wasn't made
>> clear by your long email or in your lack of response to Larry's SHTDI.
> 
> I'm not going to volunteer until I have some concept of the scope of work, and some idea of how you'd want the problem solved.  That's why it would have been better if your reply had given me some guidance.
> 
> Maybe I should be flattered that you think I can just jump into the middle of the single most complicated part of setup.exe, its very core, and not only figure out a way to solve my issue, but to actually solve it in a way that's going to be accepted.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I suspect the problem with
maintenance/extension of setup.exe is twofold: firstly, it's a non-Cygwin
program and secondly it is large and not well structured.  Also, the original
implementer/maintainer has long since left the Cygwin community.

One solution to this would be to reimplement it as two separate parts - a
non-Cygwin envelope (which could even be installed as an msi) and a
Cygwin-based package maintainer.  The Cygwin-based part would be a
completely separate Cygwin installation, with its own cygwin1.dll, and
a minimal set of utilities, and would not interfere with the main installation.
The non-cygwin wrapper would simply install/update this mini-Cygwin system
and invoke the Cygwin-based package maintainer.

The package maintainer would be based on the existing setup.exe, and would
benefit from being able to take advantage of the Cygwin layer - in particular
that would remove the need to back-port Cygwin knowledge into the various
filesystem-related components of setup.exe such as tar.  Indeed, the package
maintainer need not have a built-in tar as it could use (a private copy of)
the main Cygwin tar utility.

As I see it the main downside of this is the problem of implementing a
windows GUI in a Cygwin program without the overhead of using X.

It would be a lot of work to get there - but once in place I imagine there
would be a lot more volunteer effort to maintain/improve it.

And no - sorry, I'm not offering to do any of the work.  It would be fun but
I just haven't the time.

-- Cliff


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AW: [bulk] - Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[DEWI - N. Zacharias]

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-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: Cliff
>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Januar 2014 16:19
>An: cygwin
>Betreff: [bulk] - Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during
>uninstall in setup.exe

[...]

>One solution to this would be to reimplement it as two separate parts -
>a non-Cygwin envelope (which could even be installed as an msi) and a
>Cygwin-based package maintainer.  The Cygwin-based part would be a
>completely separate Cygwin installation, with its own cygwin1.dll, and a
>minimal set of utilities, and would not interfere with the main
>installation.
>The non-cygwin wrapper would simply install/update this mini-Cygwin
>system and invoke the Cygwin-based package maintainer.

I second this idea.

>The package maintainer would be based on the existing setup.exe,

I think this is not that good. If you rewrite the tool you should throw away ballast and use the chance to include new helpful things like a clean interface to an installation config file which allows cloning of existent installations.

Just my 2 cent
Norbert


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Re: AW: [bulk] - Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Larry Hall (Cygwin)]

On 1/23/2014 10:40 AM, DEWI - N. Zacharias wrote:

<snip>

>
> [...]
>
>> One solution to this would be to reimplement it as two separate parts -
>> a non-Cygwin envelope (which could even be installed as an msi) and a
>> Cygwin-based package maintainer.  The Cygwin-based part would be a
>> completely separate Cygwin installation, with its own cygwin1.dll, and a
>> minimal set of utilities, and would not interfere with the main
>> installation.
>> The non-cygwin wrapper would simply install/update this mini-Cygwin
>> system and invoke the Cygwin-based package maintainer.
>
> I second this idea.
>
>> The package maintainer would be based on the existing setup.exe,
>
> I think this is not that good. If you rewrite the tool you should throw
> away ballast and use the chance to include new helpful things like a clean
> interface to an installation config file which allows cloning of existent
> installations.

Unless there's someone reading this thread that's actually going to jump
in and start working on setup-next-generation, I'd like to ask others that
are considering adding to this thread to not do so.  Talking about what
would be great as a next-generation version of setup has been done plenty
in the past and it's quite likely that a continuation of this thread along
this line will rehash what has already been said.  What's missing isn't
ideas on how to make a better setup facility.  What's missing are the
brave and capable souls to do it.  If this describes you, I'd recommend
checking the archives for previous discussions on this subject and
then proposing a plan based on those discussions.  Best to do that on the
cygwin-apps list though.

-- 
Larry

_____________________________________________________________________

A: Yes.
 > Q: Are you sure?
 >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
 >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Warren Young]

On 1/23/2014 08:18, Cliff Hones wrote:
>
> One solution to this would be to reimplement it as two separate parts

Please don't hijack this thread.  It is about adding a feature to 
setup.exe.  Replacing setup.exe isn't even on the table.

For what it's worth, though, there've been a bunch of attempts at 
replacing setup.exe.  I could probably dig half a dozen attempts out of 
the archives.  (Not just vague maunderings, I mean actual working code.) 
  All have either fizzled or been shot down.  Another reason not to 
derail this thread: history says it's probably a waste of time.

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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Cliff Hones!

> I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I suspect the problem with
> maintenance/extension of setup.exe is twofold: firstly, it's a non-Cygwin
> program and secondly it is large and not well structured.  Also, the original
> implementer/maintainer has long since left the Cygwin community.

The fact setup is a non-Cygwin application is actually intended goal.
This way it can actually install and, which is more important, update Cygwin.

> One solution to this would be to reimplement it as two separate parts - a
> non-Cygwin envelope (which could even be installed as an msi) and a
> Cygwin-based package maintainer.  The Cygwin-based part would be a
> completely separate Cygwin installation, with its own cygwin1.dll,

I call Occam's razor. You are trying to replace a single application, which
already exists and works quite fine with a set of applications, that do the
same, as well as potentially cause a headache to the user, if accidentally
mishandled.
All setup is really need is more APT-like mechanics of package dependency
handling. That's all. What it already does, it does pretty much sufficiently.
Also, don't forget, that heavy part of installation/update process is enclosed
in postinstall scripts, which are run in Cygwin environment.


--
WBR,
Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@yandex.ru) 23.01.2014, <20:59>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Achim Gratz]

Warren Young writes:
> I've run into this after installing everything yesterday for my "size
> of Cygwin" research project.  Now I'm trying to remove most of that
> piece by piece, but I keep getting tangled in dependency webs.

In that case (and unrelated to the problem you noted with setup.exe) you
might just look up which packages were installed since you've started
that experiment (ls -lrt /etc/setup) and uninstall all of those past
that date threshold.


Regards,
Achim.
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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Warren Young]

On 1/23/2014 10:57, Achim Gratz wrote:
> Warren Young writes:
>> I've run into this after installing everything yesterday for my "size
>> of Cygwin" research project.  Now I'm trying to remove most of that
>> piece by piece, but I keep getting tangled in dependency webs.
>
> In that case (and unrelated to the problem you noted with setup.exe) you
> might just look up which packages were installed since you've started
> that experiment (ls -lrt /etc/setup) and uninstall all of those past
> that date threshold.

There are 5,786 packages in Cygwin, and the pre-test state was closer to 
1,000.  Making several thousand "Uninstall" selections isn't much of a 
solution.

I ended up doing the reinstall-and-merge.

I told myself that it was about time I got my Cygwin 32 directory named 
c:\cygwin32 instead of c:\cygwin, since I've also got Cygwin 64 installed.

Plus, there was an awful lot of cruft in that old tree.  Part of the 
problem was obsolete empty packages like g++-4, which setup.exe was told 
were part of my dependency set, but which it couldn't remove.  Once I 
started hacking on installed.db, I knew it was time to nuke and pave.

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RE: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

Cliff Hones sent the following at Thursday, January 23, 2014 10:19 AM
>- a non-Cygwin envelope (which could even be installed as an msi) and

Please not an MSI.  In my experience, one may need admin privileges to
install with an MSI in a locked-down environment.  One of the things
that I like about cygwin is the ability to install without admin
privileges.  Others probably appreciate that, too.

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.


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Re: Reduce noise in dependency declaration during uninstall in setup.exe

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]!

> Cliff Hones sent the following at Thursday, January 23, 2014 10:19 AM
>>- a non-Cygwin envelope (which could even be installed as an msi) and

> Please not an MSI.  In my experience, one may need admin privileges to
> install with an MSI in a locked-down environment.

Depends on the configuration of that MSI package. We have a number of
applications, that installed on per-user basis, not requiring admin privileges
to install, and they do use MSI.


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WBR,
Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@yandex.ru) 24.01.2014, <15:00>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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