From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 110765 invoked by alias); 21 Apr 2016 09:57:06 -0000 Mailing-List: contact cygwin-help@cygwin.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com Mail-Followup-To: cygwin@cygwin.com Received: (qmail 110755 invoked by uid 89); 21 Apr 2016 09:57:05 -0000 Authentication-Results: sourceware.org; auth=none X-Virus-Found: No X-Spam-SWARE-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT,FREEMAIL_FROM,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 spammy=Warren, warren, retaining, endings X-HELO: mail-wm0-f50.google.com Received: from mail-wm0-f50.google.com (HELO mail-wm0-f50.google.com) (74.125.82.50) by sourceware.org (qpsmtpd/0.93/v0.84-503-g423c35a) with (AES128-GCM-SHA256 encrypted) ESMTPS; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 09:57:03 +0000 Received: by mail-wm0-f50.google.com with SMTP id u206so123378053wme.1 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 02:57:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=N5ddDUVQUnfynyC8mEBmxUpMOZwgoTU2aruWwhf7eeY=; b=S/ycSWXYALozsQ+PC6KKHPg/U9UqhU+f4z22iRPzxMR7/E4e+ri/4v+QqqYM9J3M+2 kBY1g5g4OVfAD7lmK0OjpscrGhi+W1SAx7EJHeZn8o1N9Ztu5UhQHBHltSq00v+0qXQc j2hEpWBAb67hRIpQVNawqrkfkkNQhDDVkuhEpdMZaaDf29d2OxUStkUUEDoh3pX3Fl5a fKKXoZHLiHEFpTvPQaZP//0nGi3FLUtoEwE0EvsMV++o/XuIl4cqNUH+aN5iUo/4FUTF EbAI4jsIf3PLz/uMXVCmntB+Immlbbu31ZEWJW4RZaYjfbCahW29XeER3Ky69Cm8YofL E4OA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWX0UIc1q5s+WxU6S/4FViS+/UdQEFYJ9mJ9WMSMthZZfwFJnetU1V52f0lOEI+Dg== X-Received: by 10.194.142.240 with SMTP id rz16mr13140153wjb.126.1461232620237; Thu, 21 Apr 2016 02:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.202] ([164.215.120.147]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id jq1sm1981071wjc.28.2016.04.21.02.56.58 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 21 Apr 2016 02:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: native Linux userland in Windows 10 To: cygwin@cygwin.com References: <416uDmm4T7200S05.1460552179@web05.cms.usa.net> <84CCF5B5-9F11-4541-A527-FD0BD3AE5545@etr-usa.com> <1117668279.20160414220758@yandex.ru> <9B4C5920-2F0F-4D7C-A489-A6329679A1E8@etr-usa.com> <152468049.20160415130425@yandex.ru> <980EF918-9A26-4F02-88D6-53951432B0E4@etr-usa.com> From: David Macek Message-ID: <5718A3EA.10903@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:56:00 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <980EF918-9A26-4F02-88D6-53951432B0E4@etr-usa.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms010101080305020400010800" X-IsSubscribed: yes X-SW-Source: 2016-04/txt/msg00550.txt.bz2 --------------ms010101080305020400010800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-length: 5033 Note that I'm not necessarily arguing against you in every point you wrote.= Some reactions are just notes. On 21. 4. 2016 0:10, Warren Young wrote: > One such example is the recent complaint thread about Git=E2=80=99s path = handling, which wouldn=E2=80=99t even come up under UfW, because it isn=E2= =80=99t Windows at all. Git under UfW has exactly the same semantics as un= der Linux, where presumably the semantics are perfect, since Linux is git= =E2=80=99s natural environment. >=20 > Another example is CRLF and UTF-8 handling. Any program running under Cy= gwin that bypasses its POSIX interfaces (e.g. calling ReadFile() instead of= read(2)) will likely do strange things with LF-terminated UTF-8 text files= , whereas a UfW binary will always assume LF and UTF-8 (or $LANG, anyway) t= ext encoding. Thus, all the hacks in Cygwin and Cygwin-ported executables = for CRLF workarounds (e.g. Cygwin=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Ctext=E2=80=9D mount op= tion hack, the crnl-glob feature in Fossil to make it ignore CRs when deter= mining if a file is =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D, etc.) don=E2=80=99t need to e= xist under UfW. > > Still another example is the unfortunate mismatches in Windows vs POSIX f= ile locking semantics, as you recently noted in your recent thread complain= ing about another =E2=80=9Cuseless=E2=80=9D feature, Cygwin=E2=80=99s flock= () implementation. Again, the insides of the UfW box are completely POSIX, = not Windows at all, so presumably locking semantics are Linux-native (i.e. = advisory by default, rather than mandatory), too, so there is no mismatch b= etween Windows and POSIX semantics. Here, the wall between NT subsystems he= lps: you can=E2=80=99t have a Windows app and a UfW app fighting for lock c= ontrol of a single file, since Windows apps can=E2=80=99t even see inside t= he UfW filesystem. So far you're enumerating limitations of Cygwin-Win32 interoperability, not= limitations of Cygwin. Correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK if you stick to = (well-written) Cygwin programs and Cygwin filesystem, you don't have to wor= k around wrong line endings nor strong locks. > (You could have such a fight through the /mnt/[driveletter] door, but tha= t=E2=80=99s like arguing that the availability of NFS or SMB locking preven= ts Linux locking semantics from working correctly. Conflicts can only occu= r in the shared filesystem.) I would like to make the same argument for Cygwin and /cygdrive. > 4. You=E2=80=99re using Cygwin on Windows to test software that normally = builds and runs on Linux on a PC where installing Linux or a VM manager isn= =E2=80=99t an option. (e.g. A typical corporate locked-down desktop PC.) G= iven a choice between Cygwin and UfW, both will work You can install UoW without admin privileges? Or from another POV, you can = install UoW but not VirtualBox? > In fact, in such an environment, UfW might have a distinct advantage, bei= ng available through the Windows Store. A typical corporate PC lock-down p= olicy might not restrict installation from the Windows Store (such apps bei= ng pre-vetted, signed, and therefore =E2=80=9Csafe=E2=80=9D) but might prev= ent installation of Cygwin, since Cygwin is third-party and doesn=E2=80=99t= normally install on a per-user basis. You're assuming LSW will become pre-installed on these workstations and UoW= will become a Windows Store "app". I'm not saying it can't happen, but it = seems unlikely at the moment. > (Indeed, iperf3 doesn=E2=80=99t build OOTB on Cygwin due to an API confli= ct with newlib, a problem that doesn=E2=80=99t impact glibc based systems l= ike UfW.) Although practically speaking, Linux is more comfortable because people pri= marily target Linux, it'd be better to push for programs to be truly POSIX-= portable instead of furthering the Linux near-monopoly. > 6. A lot of Unix software runs like a pig under Cygwin due to the user-sp= ace gyrations Cygwin must go through to implement POSIX semantics under Win= dows. Midipix could end up taking the place of the top competitor of LSW/UoW perf= ormance-wise, while retaining interoperability with Win32. > 8. All of us who greatly prefer installing software via a command line pa= ckage manager (e.g. apt, pkg, brew, yum=E2=80=A6) rather than a GUI (e.g. s= etup.exe) will probably be happier under UfW than on Cygwin. This is fixable. MSYS2 already has pacman which can do the same. (Thanks to= Cygwin developers, among others.) > 9. A lot of software for Linux simply isn=E2=80=99t portable enough to bu= ild under Cygwin, and there is no native Windows port. Such software may d= o low-level unportable things, include assembly language hacks, etc. that d= on=E2=80=99t work on Windows, so your only alternative heretofore to run su= ch software on a Windows box was to run a Linux VM. (e.g. Node.js, the Ora= cle JVM (as opposed to Cygwin=E2=80=99s current JVM alternative, gcc-gcj), = Valgrind, etc.) This is definitely a win for LSW/UoW, because it goes for Linux compatibili= ty. --=20 David Macek --------------ms010101080305020400010800 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-length: 5198 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG 9w0BBwEAAKCCCuwwggUCMIID6qADAgECAhAwzJDbT70jeYw1Cb83uS/9MA0G CSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENv bSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhv cml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGllbnQgQ0EwHhcN MTUxMjIzMDgyOTQ0WhcNMTYxMjIzMDgyOTQ0WjBKMSAwHgYDVQQDDBdkYXZp ZC5tYWNlay4wQGdtYWlsLmNvbTEmMCQGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYXZGF2aWQubWFj ZWsuMEBnbWFpbC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIB 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