XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?

XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?

[Mick Pearson]

XWin has never had a permanent picture with OpenGL. Any movement "damages" all windows. I know I've looked at it before, but I checked its window/class styles with MS's Spy++ tool today. The normal styles that govern clipping and permanence look fine, but it has some weird styles that normally for disabled and transparent windows that I wonder are the cause for its abnormal behavior in this regard. No OpenGL apps that just draw only OpenGL on a window have XWin's problem. 

To be brief, it has these unnatural window-styles in this mail's subject line. Other than that, I think it may use Direct3D instead of OpenGL, but normally drawing OpenGL or Direct3D onto plain windows doesn't clobber other windows. I mean, you have to work hard to make it do something like that. 

A second, unrelated, oddity is the window decorations are sometimes classic style, and sometimes current style. It's very odd. It's random in the same session. The windows seem to undergo a transition from classic to current, but get stuck in classic sometimes. Maybe they are using the old "animated" show functions that didn't survive the version of Windows that introduced them.

Niggling things like this could be fixed. But I don't know how many people use Cygwin. I've used it a lot over the years myself, to do development work. XWin is the most stable X server. Others don't really get close. But it's kind of too comfortable with its crumminess too. Not that I'm going to shove my work aside to try to remedy it myself.

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Re: XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?

[Mick Pearson]

P.S. Sorry to add, the WM_ERASEBKGND message occurred to me, or setting the 
class-background to the "null" brush is a likely culprit. It is behaving like
a front-buffered old-fashioned application somewhat. Clipping and own-DC style 
should prevent damage, but I don't know, something seems to be responding to 
PAINT like events, that don't make sense for OpenGL.

Below is line formatted version of the old text. I have to do this manually for
new text, but the > quoted text is already hard-wrapped.

> XWin has never had a permanent picture with OpenGL. Any movement "damages" all
> windows. I know I've looked at it before, but I checked its window/class styles
> with MS's Spy++ tool today. The normal styles that govern clipping and
> permanence look fine, but it has some weird styles that normally for disabled
> and transparent windows that I wonder are the cause for its abnormal behavior
> in this regard. No OpenGL apps that just draw only OpenGL on a window have
> XWin's problem.
> 
> To be brief, it has these unnatural window-styles in this mail's subject line.
> Other than that, I think it may use Direct3D instead of OpenGL, but normally
> drawing OpenGL or Direct3D onto plain windows doesn't clobber other windows. I
> mean, you have to work hard to make it do something like that.
> 
> A second, unrelated, oddity is the window decorations are sometimes classic
> style, and sometimes current style. It's very odd. It's random in the same
> session. The windows seem to undergo a transition from classic to current, but
> get stuck in classic sometimes. Maybe they are using the old "animated" show
> functions that didn't survive the version of Windows that introduced them.
> 
> Niggling things like this could be fixed. But I don't know how many people use
> Cygwin. I've used it a lot over the years myself, to do development work. XWin
> is the most stable X server. Others don't really get close. But it's kind of
> too comfortable with its crumminess too. Not that I'm going to shove my work
> aside to try to remedy it myself.
> 
> --
> As with mail, anyone who wishes may send email from your email address. In the
> case you receive obscene or unusual email from an address with which you are
> familiar. It could be someone is impersonating that email address. Always
> return a copy of the email to the sender for review and response.

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Re: XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?

[Mick Pearson]

Sorry (I don't know how to you L A Walsh reply so am replying to myself with the same subject) 
I think I meant to include this (https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=25170) link that
includes this link:

https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=cygwin-xfree@cygwin.com&q=subject:"Re\%3A+Probable+bug+in+WGL+implementation+\(AIGLX\)+of+GLX+calls+in+XWin+\-wgl"&o=newest&f=1

I was too zealous to be brief, and I think now the window styles are a red herring. In any case the
problems arise in "overdraw" scenarios wherein a window passes over the OpenGL windows, that
is when the background is "erased" and the picture is lose (not held) which makes it impossible to
use XWin for anything but one screen demonstrations of graphical effects. Some applications use
multiple windows and do rendering with OpenGL instead of GTK widgets for example. Those can't
use XWin. I think OpenGL doesn't work with MS Windows X servers. I hope it works with Linux ones.

The other X servers available to Windows are in disarray with regard to OpenGL. So it would be good
if one of them could be made to work. XWin is closest since it doesn't crash and does draw correctly
other than it can't hold a picture.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mick Pearson" <mick.pearson@wildblue.net>
> To: "cygwin" <cygwin@cygwin.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2019 3:49:12 AM
> Subject: Re: XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?

> P.S. Sorry to add, the WM_ERASEBKGND message occurred to me, or setting the
> class-background to the "null" brush is a likely culprit. It is behaving like
> a front-buffered old-fashioned application somewhat. Clipping and own-DC style
> should prevent damage, but I don't know, something seems to be responding to
> PAINT like events, that don't make sense for OpenGL.
> 
> Below is line formatted version of the old text. I have to do this manually for
> new text, but the > quoted text is already hard-wrapped.
> 
>> XWin has never had a permanent picture with OpenGL. Any movement "damages" all
>> windows. I know I've looked at it before, but I checked its window/class styles
>> with MS's Spy++ tool today. The normal styles that govern clipping and
>> permanence look fine, but it has some weird styles that normally for disabled
>> and transparent windows that I wonder are the cause for its abnormal behavior
>> in this regard. No OpenGL apps that just draw only OpenGL on a window have
>> XWin's problem.
>> 
>> To be brief, it has these unnatural window-styles in this mail's subject line.
>> Other than that, I think it may use Direct3D instead of OpenGL, but normally
>> drawing OpenGL or Direct3D onto plain windows doesn't clobber other windows. I
>> mean, you have to work hard to make it do something like that.
>> 
>> A second, unrelated, oddity is the window decorations are sometimes classic
>> style, and sometimes current style. It's very odd. It's random in the same
>> session. The windows seem to undergo a transition from classic to current, but
>> get stuck in classic sometimes. Maybe they are using the old "animated" show
>> functions that didn't survive the version of Windows that introduced them.
>> 
>> Niggling things like this could be fixed. But I don't know how many people use
>> Cygwin. I've used it a lot over the years myself, to do development work. XWin
>> is the most stable X server. Others don't really get close. But it's kind of
>> too comfortable with its crumminess too. Not that I'm going to shove my work
>> aside to try to remedy it myself.
>> 
>> --
>> As with mail, anyone who wishes may send email from your email address. In the
>> case you receive obscene or unusual email from an address with which you are
>> familiar. It could be someone is impersonating that email address. Always
>> return a copy of the email to the sender for review and response.
> 
> --
> As with mail, anyone who wishes may send email from your email address. In the
> case you receive obscene or unusual email from an address with which you are
> familiar. It could be someone is impersonating that email address. Always
> return a copy of the email to the sender for review and response.

-- 
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Re: XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?

[Mick Pearson]

I've put forward a patch (https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=25170) to this for anyone interested. I'll
explore putting it elsewhere, but I really think these mailing lists are an albatross, not sure I want to join another.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mick Pearson" <mick.pearson@wildblue.net>
> To: "cygwin" <cygwin@cygwin.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 1:27:53 AM
> Subject: Re: XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?

> Sorry (I don't know how to you L A Walsh reply so am replying to myself with the
> same subject)
> I think I meant to include this
> (https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=25170) link that
> includes this link:
> 
> https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=cygwin-xfree@cygwin.com&q=subject:"Re\%3A+Probable+bug+in+WGL+implementation+\(AIGLX\)+of+GLX+calls+in+XWin+\-wgl"&o=newest&f=1
> 
> I was too zealous to be brief, and I think now the window styles are a red
> herring. In any case the
> problems arise in "overdraw" scenarios wherein a window passes over the OpenGL
> windows, that
> is when the background is "erased" and the picture is lose (not held) which
> makes it impossible to
> use XWin for anything but one screen demonstrations of graphical effects. Some
> applications use
> multiple windows and do rendering with OpenGL instead of GTK widgets for
> example. Those can't
> use XWin. I think OpenGL doesn't work with MS Windows X servers. I hope it works
> with Linux ones.
> 
> The other X servers available to Windows are in disarray with regard to OpenGL.
> So it would be good
> if one of them could be made to work. XWin is closest since it doesn't crash and
> does draw correctly
> other than it can't hold a picture.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mick Pearson" <mick.pearson@wildblue.net>
>> To: "cygwin" <cygwin@cygwin.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2019 3:49:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and
>> WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?
> 
>> P.S. Sorry to add, the WM_ERASEBKGND message occurred to me, or setting the
>> class-background to the "null" brush is a likely culprit. It is behaving like
>> a front-buffered old-fashioned application somewhat. Clipping and own-DC style
>> should prevent damage, but I don't know, something seems to be responding to
>> PAINT like events, that don't make sense for OpenGL.
>> 
>> Below is line formatted version of the old text. I have to do this manually for
>> new text, but the > quoted text is already hard-wrapped.
>> 
>>> XWin has never had a permanent picture with OpenGL. Any movement "damages" all
>>> windows. I know I've looked at it before, but I checked its window/class styles
>>> with MS's Spy++ tool today. The normal styles that govern clipping and
>>> permanence look fine, but it has some weird styles that normally for disabled
>>> and transparent windows that I wonder are the cause for its abnormal behavior
>>> in this regard. No OpenGL apps that just draw only OpenGL on a window have
>>> XWin's problem.
>>> 
>>> To be brief, it has these unnatural window-styles in this mail's subject line.
>>> Other than that, I think it may use Direct3D instead of OpenGL, but normally
>>> drawing OpenGL or Direct3D onto plain windows doesn't clobber other windows. I
>>> mean, you have to work hard to make it do something like that.
>>> 
>>> A second, unrelated, oddity is the window decorations are sometimes classic
>>> style, and sometimes current style. It's very odd. It's random in the same
>>> session. The windows seem to undergo a transition from classic to current, but
>>> get stuck in classic sometimes. Maybe they are using the old "animated" show
>>> functions that didn't survive the version of Windows that introduced them.
>>> 
>>> Niggling things like this could be fixed. But I don't know how many people use
>>> Cygwin. I've used it a lot over the years myself, to do development work. XWin
>>> is the most stable X server. Others don't really get close. But it's kind of
>>> too comfortable with its crumminess too. Not that I'm going to shove my work
>>> aside to try to remedy it myself.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> As with mail, anyone who wishes may send email from your email address. In the
>>> case you receive obscene or unusual email from an address with which you are
>>> familiar. It could be someone is impersonating that email address. Always
>>> return a copy of the email to the sender for review and response.
>> 
>> --
>> As with mail, anyone who wishes may send email from your email address. In the
>> case you receive obscene or unusual email from an address with which you are
>> familiar. It could be someone is impersonating that email address. Always
>> return a copy of the email to the sender for review and response.
> 
> --
> As with mail, anyone who wishes may send email from your email address. In the
> case you receive obscene or unusual email from an address with which you are
> familiar. It could be someone is impersonating that email address. Always
> return a copy of the email to the sender for review and response.

-- 
As with mail, anyone who wishes may send email from your email address. In the case you receive obscene or unusual email from an address with which you are familiar. It could be someone is impersonating that email address. Always return a copy of the email to the sender for review and response.

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Re: XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?

[Brian Inglis]

On 2019-11-16 06:39, Mick Pearson wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 1:27:53 AM, Mick Pearson wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 9, 2019 3:49:12 AM, Mick Pearson wrote:
>>>> XWin has never had a permanent picture with OpenGL. Any movement "damages" all
>>>> windows. I know I've looked at it before, but I checked its window/class styles
>>>> with MS's Spy++ tool today. The normal styles that govern clipping and
>>>> permanence look fine, but it has some weird styles that normally for disabled
>>>> and transparent windows that I wonder are the cause for its abnormal behavior
>>>> in this regard. No OpenGL apps that just draw only OpenGL on a window have
>>>> XWin's problem.
>>>>
>>>> To be brief, it has these unnatural window-styles in this mail's subject line.
>>>> Other than that, I think it may use Direct3D instead of OpenGL, but normally
>>>> drawing OpenGL or Direct3D onto plain windows doesn't clobber other windows. I
>>>> mean, you have to work hard to make it do something like that.
>>>>
>>>> A second, unrelated, oddity is the window decorations are sometimes classic
>>>> style, and sometimes current style. It's very odd. It's random in the same
>>>> session. The windows seem to undergo a transition from classic to current, but
>>>> get stuck in classic sometimes. Maybe they are using the old "animated" show
>>>> functions that didn't survive the version of Windows that introduced them.
>>>>
>>>> Niggling things like this could be fixed. But I don't know how many people use
>>>> Cygwin. I've used it a lot over the years myself, to do development work. XWin
>>>> is the most stable X server. Others don't really get close. But it's kind of
>>>> too comfortable with its crumminess too. Not that I'm going to shove my work
>>>> aside to try to remedy it myself.

>>> WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?
>>> P.S. Sorry to add, the WM_ERASEBKGND message occurred to me, or setting
>>> the class-background to the "null" brush is a likely culprit. It is
>>> behaving like a front-buffered old-fashioned application somewhat.
>>> Clipping and own-DC style should prevent damage, but I don't know,
>>> something seems to be responding to PAINT like events, that don't make
>>> sense for OpenGL.
>> I think I meant to include this>> (https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=25170) link that includes
>> this link:>>
>>
https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=cygwin-xfree@cygwin.com&q=subject:"Re\%3A+Probable+bug+in+WGL+implementation+\(AIGLX\)+of+GLX+calls+in+XWin+\-wgl"&o=newest&f=1
>>
>> I was too zealous to be brief, and I think now the window styles are a red 
>> herring. In any case the problems arise in "overdraw" scenarios wherein a
>> window passes over the OpenGL windows, that is when the background is
>> "erased" and the picture is lose (not held) which makes it impossible to 
>> use XWin for anything but one screen demonstrations of graphical effects.>> Some applications use multiple windows and do rendering with OpenGL instead
>> of GTK widgets for example. Those can't use XWin. I think OpenGL doesn't
>> work with MS Windows X servers. I hope it works with Linux ones.>>
>> The other X servers available to Windows are in disarray with regard to
>> OpenGL.>> So it would be good if one of them could be made to work. XWin is closest
>> since it doesn't crash and does draw correctly other than it can't hold a
>> picture.
> I've put forward a patch
> (https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=25170) to this for anyone
> interested. I'll explore putting it elsewhere, but I really think these
> mailing lists are an albatross, not sure I want to join another.
As everyone is a volunteer with little free time, Cygwin no longer uses
sourceware/bugzilla, it uses mailing lists and git format-patch/send-email
patches, to make it quick and easy for committers to apply with git am.
Please submit app patches to cygwin-apps@cygwin.com in git
format-patch/send-email format (with --cover-letter if a patch series).

-- 
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada

This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains
too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised.

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Re: XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?

[Jon Turney]

On 16/11/2019 17:03, Brian Inglis wrote:
> As everyone is a volunteer with little free time, Cygwin no longer uses
> sourceware/bugzilla, it uses mailing lists and git format-patch/send-email
> patches, to make it quick and easy for committers to apply with git am.
> Please submit app patches to cygwin-apps@cygwin.com in git
> format-patch/send-email format (with --cover-letter if a patch series).

As a minor correction, I think it's fine (and historic practice) for app 
patches and discussion to be sent to this list (rather than requiring 
people to join cygwin-apps list, which only allows posting be 
subscribers), (especially given the tiny volume of such submissions 
Cygwin receives :S)


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Re: XWin can't hold OpenGL picture, has WS_DISABLED and WS_EX_TRANSPARENT styles?

[L A Walsh]

On 2019/11/09 01:21, Mick Pearson wrote:
> XWin has never had a permanent picture with OpenGL. 
???

Not sure what thing you are talking about -- but some/many opengl
progs seem to work with XWin across a local network (using programs
on my linux box, and display via Cygwin X).

Many of them operate at full speed, but depends on application:
> glxspheres
Polygons in scene: 62464
libGL error: failed to load driver: swrast ***
Visual ID of window: 0x2c6
Context is Indirect
OpenGL Renderer: GeForce GTX 1080/PCIe/SSE2
3220.365264 frames/sec - 3593.927634 Mpixels/sec
59.853303 frames/sec - 66.796286 Mpixels/sec
59.854641 frames/sec - 66.797779 Mpixels/sec
43.856578 frames/sec - 48.943941 Mpixels/sec
150.846871 frames/sec - 168.345108 Mpixels/sec
36.137460 frames/sec - 60.207032 Mpixels/sec
---
different values were for different window sizes.

*** - this failed to load driver is a bogus msg that comes out
with any/all programs that use an indirect context...

The screen's refresh is 60Hz.

> Any movement "damages" all windows. 
---
I don't understand what you mean by this -- I can move the rendering
window around and resize it and don't see any other windows needing
a refresh (most are Xwin from my linux box).


Anyway, thought I'd chime in.  Of note --
glxgears sometimes works but is often frozen upon startup.

-l


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