installer improvements

installer improvements

[wefwef wefwef]

After using cygwin for years, and having some recent difficulty
installing, I took a look at the installer to actually try and
understand it (a novel concept I know!). Here are my thoughts on the
gui - I think it could be made considerably more user friendly with
some minor cosmetic changes.

The View button is being used to do two separate and unrelated tasks.
- Switch between category and list view
- Choose between partial, up to date, and not installed.
I suggest that additional radio buttons be used to select between
category and list view.

The terms used are not the clearest (and believe me, things are tricky
enough already)
Partial              -   I suggest change to 'to be be installed' or similar
Up to date        -   I suggest change to 'already installed' or similar
not installed     -   this is clear, no changes necessary

The way that (partial, up to date and not installed) is selected, via
clicking on a button multiple times is not very common in gui design.
It doesn't allow you to see all of the available choices at once. I
suggest replacing this button either with a group of radio buttons, or
a drop down list similar to the way that you can change the view in a
windows folder (details, list, icons)

I suggest that a new column be introduced, indicating whether a
package is already installed or not. The installer has this
information - it would be nice if it made it available to the user.

Also, on an unrelated note, it would be very nice, to sort the list of
mirrors in order of latency, or auto select the fastest available
mirror.

Chris

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Re: installer improvements

[Morgan Gangwere]

On 4/5/2010 3:47 AM, wefwef wefwef wrote:
> After using cygwin for years, and having some recent difficulty
> installing, I took a look at the installer to actually try and
> understand it (a novel concept I know!). Here are my thoughts on the
> gui - I think it could be made considerably more user friendly with
> some minor cosmetic changes.

Personally, as a UI fanatic, I have no problem with it, and I get really 
nitpicky about design. Lets hear your gripes, shall we? :)

> The View button is being used to do two separate and unrelated tasks.
> - Switch between category and list view
> - Choose between partial, up to date, and not installed.
> I suggest that additional radio buttons be used to select between
> category and list view.

They are *not* unrelated. In fact, that button keeps me *sane*

What it does is change the perspective of looking at the packages; the 
fact that one view happens to be a tree view ("by category") instead of 
a linear-list ("by is-installed" or "is-downloaded") is a happy 2nd or 
3rd order effect. *any other way of doing it would be a kludgy look*.

> The terms used are not the clearest (and believe me, things are tricky
> enough already)
> Partial              -   I suggest change to 'to be be installed' or similar
> Up to date        -   I suggest change to 'already installed' or similar
> not installed     -   this is clear, no changes necessary

Partial: Downloaded (or marked for download/Updatable), but not installed.
Up To Date: Downloaded, Installed and latest version.
Not Installed: Self Referential.

> The way that (partial, up to date and not installed) is selected, via
> clicking on a button multiple times is not very common in gui design.

It sure as hell is. Look at Synaptic: Uses the same ideology; If the 
debian folks were braindamaged (which, frankly, some of them are) they 
would be working on GNOME projects (Except Synaptic, which also has this 
ability)

> It doesn't allow you to see all of the available choices at once. I
> suggest replacing this button either with a group of radio buttons, or
> a drop down list similar to the way that you can change the view in a
> windows folder (details, list, icons).

I believe the view-mode you're looking for is "full"

> I suggest that a new column be introduced, indicating whether a
> package is already installed or not. The installer has this
> information - it would be nice if it made it available to the user.

There's already two of those -- they're called "Bin?" and "Src?" -- 
which indicate if the binary and/or source packages are installed.

> Also, on an unrelated note, it would be very nice, to sort the list of
> mirrors in order of latency, or auto select the fastest available
> mirror.

Lets see, the server list contains 30-50 servers. Setup.exe is 
single-threaded for a reason until you get to the installation, where 
upon it actually forks off some threads to do real work.

Lets assume that you're not on the greatest of net connections... say 
average ping of 180ms (thats my average ping to the local transfer 
station)...

5 [pings] * 180 [~ms] *50 [servers] =  45000 ms
thats 45 seconds your machine is *stopped* going and checking latency.

Inb4 "make the main server report them" -- not a good idea.
First, the main server's going to be right on the backbone, therefore 
giving *low* pings. This will create a false sense of hope and when it 
takes forever for it down download even though the ping was low, users 
get grumpy.

Inb4 "Have a round-robin DNS" -- Again, not a good idea.
Each server has a *different* set of packages because some of them are 
purely *volunteer* maintained. Its just a sad fact that most (if not 
all) of the people who work on these projects make... $0 maintaining the 
servers, packages and tools.

AS for gripes about the deterministic-y of the installer: its entirely 
deterministic. What you do, however, is not.

If you notice, there are three options in the installer for "setup mode" 
-- one is normal install off the net, another is download packages only, 
and the third is install from local cache.

The "download packages only" will churn whatever portion of a package 
tree you wish down into a filesystem *locked to a particular server*.

that is, if you choose "C:\Cygtemp\" as your "download directory" you 
will find that there's a folder there for the URL of your chosen mirror.

This lets you back up an entire server then turn around and install it 
on a network-less machine (by pointing it to "cygtemp"'s logical new 
location)

Give You A Hint, I at the age of *13* was able to download and install 
and configure Cygwin... 1.3 I think it was... It was definitely about 
five years ago... onto a machine with no internet connection whatsoever.


-- 

Morgan Gangwere

 >> Why?
 > Because it breaks the logical flow of conversation, plus makes 
messages unreadable.
 >>> Top-Posting is evil.

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Re: installer improvements

[wefwef wefwef]

>> After using cygwin for years, and having some recent difficulty
>> installing, I took a look at the installer to actually try and
>> understand it (a novel concept I know!). Here are my thoughts on the
>> gui - I think it could be made considerably more user friendly with
>> some minor cosmetic changes.
>
> Personally, as a UI fanatic, I have no problem with it, and I get really
> nitpicky about design. Lets hear your gripes, shall we? :)
>
>> The View button is being used to do two separate and unrelated tasks.
>> - Switch between category and list view
>> - Choose between partial, up to date, and not installed.
>> I suggest that additional radio buttons be used to select between
>> category and list view.
>
> They are *not* unrelated. In fact, that button keeps me *sane*

how do you choose full view in category mode, full view in list mode,
partial view in category mode, partial view in list mode, not
installed in category mode, not installed in list mode ?
>
> What it does is change the perspective of looking at the packages; the fact
> that one view happens to be a tree view ("by category") instead of a
> linear-list ("by is-installed" or "is-downloaded") is a happy 2nd or 3rd
> order effect. *any other way of doing it would be a kludgy look*.
So you are saying that the single button has a second order effect.
Normally, you would put this 'second order effect' on a different gui
component so it could be controlled separately. In effect, the view
button tries to do two things - one is how you see what is currently
selected (list or category), the other is to select what you see. Why
on earth you would want to choose these functions with the same button
I don't know.
>
>> The terms used are not the clearest (and believe me, things are tricky
>> enough already)
>> Partial              -   I suggest change to 'to be be installed' or
>> similar
>> Up to date        -   I suggest change to 'already installed' or similar
>> not installed     -   this is clear, no changes necessary
>
> Partial: Downloaded (or marked for download/Updatable), but not installed.
> Up To Date: Downloaded, Installed and latest version.
> Not Installed: Self Referential.
Yes, I know you can explain the terms to me, good design however is
self explanatory.
>
>> The way that (partial, up to date and not installed) is selected, via
>> clicking on a button multiple times is not very common in gui design.
>
> It sure as hell is. Look at Synaptic: Uses the same ideology; If the debian
> folks were braindamaged (which, frankly, some of them are) they would be
> working on GNOME projects (Except Synaptic, which also has this ability)
Where else? - I don't see it everywhere in all the gui's I use - I do
however see radio buttons and drop down lists everywhere.
>
>> It doesn't allow you to see all of the available choices at once. I
>> suggest replacing this button either with a group of radio buttons, or
>> a drop down list similar to the way that you can change the view in a
>> windows folder (details, list, icons).
>
> I believe the view-mode you're looking for is "full"
No, I'm looking for a logical way of selecting the view mode.
>
>> I suggest that a new column be introduced, indicating whether a
>> package is already installed or not. The installer has this
>> information - it would be nice if it made it available to the user.
>
> There's already two of those -- they're called "Bin?" and "Src?" -- which
> indicate if the binary and/or source packages are installed.
Well, actually the column that does this is called Current, which was
pointed out to me by Dave Korn.
>
>> Also, on an unrelated note, it would be very nice, to sort the list of
>> mirrors in order of latency, or auto select the fastest available
>> mirror.
>
> Lets see, the server list contains 30-50 servers. Setup.exe is
> single-threaded for a reason until you get to the installation, where upon
> it actually forks off some threads to do real work.
>
> Lets assume that you're not on the greatest of net connections... say
> average ping of 180ms (thats my average ping to the local transfer
> station)...
>
> 5 [pings] * 180 [~ms] *50 [servers] =  45000 ms
> thats 45 seconds your machine is *stopped* going and checking latency.
>
Choosing the fastest server could save a lot longer than 45 seconds in
download time. This functionality would be useful and could be an
option available to users if they wanted to automatically find the
fastest server.

> Inb4 "make the main server report them" -- not a good idea.
> First, the main server's going to be right on the backbone, therefore giving
> *low* pings. This will create a false sense of hope and when it takes
> forever for it down download even though the ping was low, users get grumpy.
>
> Inb4 "Have a round-robin DNS" -- Again, not a good idea.
> Each server has a *different* set of packages because some of them are
> purely *volunteer* maintained. Its just a sad fact that most (if not all) of
> the people who work on these projects make... $0 maintaining the servers,
> packages and tools.
>
> AS for gripes about the deterministic-y of the installer: its entirely
> deterministic. What you do, however, is not.
That's a great way of investigating and fixing bugs - just say they
don't exist and it's the users fault. Wow, I wish I could fix my bugs
so easily.
>
> If you notice, there are three options in the installer for "setup mode" --
> one is normal install off the net, another is download packages only, and
> the third is install from local cache.
>
> The "download packages only" will churn whatever portion of a package tree
> you wish down into a filesystem *locked to a particular server*.
>
> that is, if you choose "C:\Cygtemp\" as your "download directory" you will
> find that there's a folder there for the URL of your chosen mirror.
>
> This lets you back up an entire server then turn around and install it on a
> network-less machine (by pointing it to "cygtemp"'s logical new location)
>
> Give You A Hint, I at the age of *13* was able to download and install and
> configure Cygwin... 1.3 I think it was... It was definitely about five years
> ago... onto a machine with no internet connection whatsoever.
Clever you. What's that got to do with anything? You see, to end up
with good quality software, you have to search out flaws, and fix
them. Just because you could install 5 years ago, doesn't mean the
installer is the best it could be.

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Re: installer improvements

[Morgan Gangwere]

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 8:10 AM, wefwef wefwef <fromblewit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> After using cygwin for years, and having some recent difficulty
>>> installing, I took a look at the installer to actually try and
>>> understand it (a novel concept I know!).

Your problem was that a package didnt get installed because you would
have had to explicitly told it not to have been.

>>> Here are my thoughts on the gui - I think it could be made considerably
>>>  more user friendly with some minor cosmetic changes.
>>
>> Personally, as a UI fanatic, I have no problem with it, and I get really
>> nitpicky about design. Lets hear your gripes, shall we? :)
>>
>>> The View button is being used to do two separate and unrelated tasks.
>>> - Switch between category and list view
>>> - Choose between partial, up to date, and not installed.
>>> I suggest that additional radio buttons be used to select between
>>> category and list view.
>>
>> They are *not* unrelated. In fact, that button keeps me *sane*
>
> how do you choose full view in category mode, full view in list mode,
> partial view in category mode, partial view in list mode, not
> installed in category mode, not installed in list mode ?

they dont exist because packages can exist in multiple categories
(apache in "web" and "network", xbiff in "X11" and "Network", etc)

>>
>> What it does is change the perspective of looking at the packages; the fact
>> that one view happens to be a tree view ("by category") instead of a
>> linear-list ("by is-installed" or "is-downloaded") is a happy 2nd or 3rd
>> order effect. *any other way of doing it would be a kludgy look*.
> So you are saying that the single button has a second order effect.
> Normally, you would put this 'second order effect' on a different gui
> component so it could be controlled separately. In effect, the view
> button tries to do two things - one is how you see what is currently
> selected (list or category), the other is to select what you see. Why
> on earth you would want to choose these functions with the same button
> I don't know.

no, the second order effect is that in category view, it is set up in
a tree-list instead of (oh i dont know) sorted by the category in a
column.


>>
>>> The terms used are not the clearest (and believe me, things are tricky
>>> enough already)
>>> Partial              -   I suggest change to 'to be be installed' or
>>> similar
>>> Up to date        -   I suggest change to 'already installed' or similar
>>> not installed     -   this is clear, no changes necessary
>>
>> Partial: Downloaded (or marked for download/Updatable), but not installed.
>> Up To Date: Downloaded, Installed and latest version.
>> Not Installed: Self Referential.
> Yes, I know you can explain the terms to me, good design however is
> self explanatory.
>>
>>> The way that (partial, up to date and not installed) is selected, via
>>> clicking on a button multiple times is not very common in gui design.
>>
>> It sure as hell is. Look at Synaptic: Uses the same ideology; If the debian
>> folks were braindamaged (which, frankly, some of them are) they would be
>> working on GNOME projects (Except Synaptic, which also has this ability)
> Where else? - I don't see it everywhere in all the gui's I use - I do
> however see radio buttons and drop down lists everywhere.

I'll point to Microsoft's Visual Studio installers of past. I dont
have the RC for vs2010 but I can speculate its the same as most of the
other ones: a button to change one things, another button to change
something else, and more buttons to change how you see things.

AVR Studio uses view-modes as well, changing the entire layout of the
application depending on what you are doing at the moment (be it
flashing a device, debugging a device, etc)

>>
>>> It doesn't allow you to see all of the available choices at once. I
>>> suggest replacing this button either with a group of radio buttons, or
>>> a drop down list similar to the way that you can change the view in a
>>> windows folder (details, list, icons).
>>
>> I believe the view-mode you're looking for is "full"
> No, I'm looking for a logical way of selecting the view mode.

I believe you are looking for the "view" button then.

>>
>>> I suggest that a new column be introduced, indicating whether a
>>> package is already installed or not. The installer has this
>>> information - it would be nice if it made it available to the user.
>>
>> There's already two of those -- they're called "Bin?" and "Src?" -- which
>> indicate if the binary and/or source packages are installed.
> Well, actually the column that does this is called Current, which was
> pointed out to me by Dave Korn.

>>> I suggest that a new column be introduced, indicating whether a
>>> package is already installed or not.
Sounds to me like a boolean. Bin? and Src? do that.


> Choosing the fastest server could save a lot longer than 45 seconds in
> download time. This functionality would be useful and could be an
> option available to users if they wanted to automatically find the
> fastest server.

Ever wondered why there's 50 or so servers to choose from? because it
assumes that when you choose you are able to figure out that its
proabably faster to get data from somewhere closer to you.

> Clever you. What's that got to do with anything? You see, to end up
> with good quality software, you have to search out flaws, and fix
> them. Just because you could install 5 years ago, doesn't mean the
> installer is the best it could be.

Its that that was my first Cygwin install. Ever. I was downloading it
to run some work I was dealing with at school (we used linux at school
and I wanted to test some code) but didnt want to dual boot because I
didnt know how to get it set up with XP.

As a test I asked a collegue of mine, who barely knows how to use
office, to install Cygwin on a machine with gvim, Xorg and some other
things. With explaination about package names, they were able to do it
without a problem.




Stop trying to "fix" the interface unless you are volunteering to take
over the project.
-- 
Morgan gangwere

“The future’s already arrived. It’s just not evenly distributed yet.”
William Gibson

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Re: installer improvements

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Apr 06, 2010 at 10:29:15AM -0600, Morgan Gangwere wrote:
>Stop trying to "fix" the interface unless you are volunteering to take
>over the project.

That's a little harsh.  We'll gladly look at patches which improve
setup.exe but it's not likely that we'll be interested in making
interface changes just because someone makes assertive statements about
the UI.

cgf

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Re: installer improvements

[Tim McDaniel]

On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> That's a little harsh.  We'll gladly look at patches which improve
> setup.exe but it's not likely that we'll be interested in making
> interface changes just because someone makes assertive statements
> about the UI.

Hrm.  Can I nevertheless put in a comment?

Yesterday, as I mentioned on this list, I was fooling around with
packages qt3 and qt3-doc.  In setup.exe, at one point, I clicked on
qt3 until it was Skip.  I then clicked on qt3-doc's New value
repeatedly to reach Uninstall, but on the first click (Reinstall, I
think), setup.exe put qt3 back to being installed.  The only reason I
noticed is because there's only one row between them.  If the
dependency were off in lib*, for example, I would have been thwarted.

So two thoughts come to my mind.

(1) Why do the docs depend on the package?  While it's unlikely, it's
     possible that someone wants the documentation to be handy on their
     own machine (convenient access, for example) when the real package
     is installed on another.  For a similar example, I tend to do BAT
     file work on a production machine, but my browser and bookmarked
     help links are on my desktop.

(2) I was annoyed that it silently included a package, and more, that
     it silently undid an action.  I'm not entirely sure of what the
     best fix would be.  Maybe if, when clicking Next, it would pop up
     a dialog box listing unmet dependencies and ask whether they
     should be included?

-- 
Tim McDaniel, tmcd@panix.com

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Re: installer improvements

[Morgan Gangwere]

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Tim McDaniel <tmcd@panix.com> wrote:
[snip]

I think thats because of the qt3 documentation system; last I knew
they really liked pointing you to real files in code-space, so you
need the dev files which depend on the binaries. its like Atmel, who
love giving you Doxygen files which point to the full source-tree

All else fails, download the documentation yourself?


-- 
Morgan gangwere

“The future’s already arrived. It’s just not evenly distributed yet.”
William Gibson

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Re: installer improvements

[wefwef wefwef]

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 7:29 PM, Morgan Gangwere <0.fractalus@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 8:10 AM, wefwef wefwef <fromblewit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> After using cygwin for years, and having some recent difficulty
>>>> installing, I took a look at the installer to actually try and
>>>> understand it (a novel concept I know!).
>
> Your problem was that a package didnt get installed because you would
> have had to explicitly told it not to have been.

Nice explanation if it was actually true, but it's just an assumption
you have made, based on your opinion that the cygwin installer is
flawless.

>
>>>> Here are my thoughts on the gui - I think it could be made considerably
>>>>  more user friendly with some minor cosmetic changes.
>>>
>>> Personally, as a UI fanatic, I have no problem with it, and I get really
>>> nitpicky about design. Lets hear your gripes, shall we? :)
>>>
>>>> The View button is being used to do two separate and unrelated tasks.
>>>> - Switch between category and list view
>>>> - Choose between partial, up to date, and not installed.
>>>> I suggest that additional radio buttons be used to select between
>>>> category and list view.
>>>
>>> They are *not* unrelated. In fact, that button keeps me *sane*
>>
>> how do you choose full view in category mode, full view in list mode,
>> partial view in category mode, partial view in list mode, not
>> installed in category mode, not installed in list mode ?
>
> they dont exist because packages can exist in multiple categories
> (apache in "web" and "network", xbiff in "X11" and "Network", etc)

nope, that doesn't explain anything. So what if they can exist in
multiple categories. Obviously if I choose a list view, then I want a
list of everything that has been chosen, with no duplicates. And a
category view would obviously show the duplicates within the
categories.

>
>>>
>>> What it does is change the perspective of looking at the packages; the fact
>>> that one view happens to be a tree view ("by category") instead of a
>>> linear-list ("by is-installed" or "is-downloaded") is a happy 2nd or 3rd
>>> order effect. *any other way of doing it would be a kludgy look*.
>> So you are saying that the single button has a second order effect.
>> Normally, you would put this 'second order effect' on a different gui
>> component so it could be controlled separately. In effect, the view
>> button tries to do two things - one is how you see what is currently
>> selected (list or category), the other is to select what you see. Why
>> on earth you would want to choose these functions with the same button
>> I don't know.
>
> no, the second order effect is that in category view, it is set up in
> a tree-list instead of (oh i dont know) sorted by the category in a
> column.

There you go again, a 'second order effect'  - So you admit that one
button does two separate things, and you think that's ok, and is the
best way to do things, and doesn't confuse anyone at all?

>
>
>>>
>>>> The terms used are not the clearest (and believe me, things are tricky
>>>> enough already)
>>>> Partial              -   I suggest change to 'to be be installed' or
>>>> similar
>>>> Up to date        -   I suggest change to 'already installed' or similar
>>>> not installed     -   this is clear, no changes necessary
>>>
>>> Partial: Downloaded (or marked for download/Updatable), but not installed.
>>> Up To Date: Downloaded, Installed and latest version.
>>> Not Installed: Self Referential.
>> Yes, I know you can explain the terms to me, good design however is
>> self explanatory.
>>>
>>>> The way that (partial, up to date and not installed) is selected, via
>>>> clicking on a button multiple times is not very common in gui design.
>>>
>>> It sure as hell is. Look at Synaptic: Uses the same ideology; If the debian
>>> folks were braindamaged (which, frankly, some of them are) they would be
>>> working on GNOME projects (Except Synaptic, which also has this ability)
>> Where else? - I don't see it everywhere in all the gui's I use - I do
>> however see radio buttons and drop down lists everywhere.
>
> I'll point to Microsoft's Visual Studio installers of past. I dont
> have the RC for vs2010 but I can speculate its the same as most of the
> other ones: a button to change one things, another button to change
> something else, and more buttons to change how you see things.
>
> AVR Studio uses view-modes as well, changing the entire layout of the
> application depending on what you are doing at the moment (be it
> flashing a device, debugging a device, etc)
>
>>>
>>>> It doesn't allow you to see all of the available choices at once. I
>>>> suggest replacing this button either with a group of radio buttons, or
>>>> a drop down list similar to the way that you can change the view in a
>>>> windows folder (details, list, icons).
>>>
>>> I believe the view-mode you're looking for is "full"
>> No, I'm looking for a logical way of selecting the view mode.
>
> I believe you are looking for the "view" button then.

No, because the view button is a confused hack of a way to select both
what I want to view, and how I want to view it. If you cared about gui
design as you claim to, then you would realize that this is a  nasty
hack, and not the most logical way to do things.

>
>>>
>>>> I suggest that a new column be introduced, indicating whether a
>>>> package is already installed or not. The installer has this
>>>> information - it would be nice if it made it available to the user.
>>>
>>> There's already two of those -- they're called "Bin?" and "Src?" -- which
>>> indicate if the binary and/or source packages are installed.
>> Well, actually the column that does this is called Current, which was
>> pointed out to me by Dave Korn.
>
>>>> I suggest that a new column be introduced, indicating whether a
>>>> package is already installed or not.
> Sounds to me like a boolean. Bin? and Src? do that.

No, the Bin and Src are not view only - they allow the user to change
them. Once the user has changed them they no longer accurately reflect
the current state of your system. The Current column is view only, and
it always reflects the current state of your system.

>
>
>> Choosing the fastest server could save a lot longer than 45 seconds in
>> download time. This functionality would be useful and could be an
>> option available to users if they wanted to automatically find the
>> fastest server.
>
> Ever wondered why there's 50 or so servers to choose from? because it
> assumes that when you choose you are able to figure out that its
> proabably faster to get data from somewhere closer to you.

There are 94 servers on the list many of which don't have any obvious
geographic location (eg mirrors.dotsrc.org). There are 195 countries
in the world. That means an awfull lot of people have to be an expert
on the geography of a foreign country in order to choose the correct
server. Well, I'm sure they can work it out - but wouldn't it be nice
to give them the choice to get the computer to work it out for them?

>
>> Clever you. What's that got to do with anything? You see, to end up
>> with good quality software, you have to search out flaws, and fix
>> them. Just because you could install 5 years ago, doesn't mean the
>> installer is the best it could be.
>
> Its that that was my first Cygwin install. Ever. I was downloading it
> to run some work I was dealing with at school (we used linux at school
> and I wanted to test some code) but didnt want to dual boot because I
> didnt know how to get it set up with XP.
>
> As a test I asked a collegue of mine, who barely knows how to use
> office, to install Cygwin on a machine with gvim, Xorg and some other
> things. With explaination about package names, they were able to do it
> without a problem.

One instance of a correct install doesn't mean anything - the ones you
have to pay attention to are where they don't go smoothly, that's how
you find problems and hopefully fix them so they don't happen again.

>
>
>
>
> Stop trying to "fix" the interface unless you are volunteering to take
> over the project.

Cygwin are obviously convinced that their software is perfect and will
ignore anyone who implies otherwise.

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RE: installer improvements

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

wefwef wefwef sent the following at Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:18 AM
>On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 7:29 PM, Morgan Gangwere
>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 8:10 AM, wefwef wefwef wrote:
>>> Choosing the fastest server could save a lot longer than 45 seconds
>>> in download time. This functionality would be useful and could be an
>>> option available to users if they wanted to automatically find the
>>> fastest server.
>>
>> Ever wondered why there's 50 or so servers to choose from? because it
>> assumes that when you choose you are able to figure out that its
>> probably faster to get data from somewhere closer to you.
>
>There are 94 servers on the list many of which don't have any obvious
>geographic location (e.g. mirrors.dotsrc.org). There are 195 countries
>in the world. That means an awful lot of people have to be an expert
>on the geography of a foreign country in order to choose the correct
>server. Well, I'm sure they can work it out - but wouldn't it be nice to
>give them the choice to get the computer to work it out for them?

http://cygwin.com/mirrors.html gives locations.

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.


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Re: installer improvements

[Jeremy Bopp]

On 4/7/2010 8:32 AM, Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E] wrote:
> wefwef wefwef sent the following at Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:18 AM
>> There are 94 servers on the list many of which don't have any obvious
>> geographic location (e.g. mirrors.dotsrc.org). There are 195 countries
>> in the world. That means an awful lot of people have to be an expert
>> on the geography of a foreign country in order to choose the correct
>> server. Well, I'm sure they can work it out - but wouldn't it be nice to
>> give them the choice to get the computer to work it out for them?
> 
> http://cygwin.com/mirrors.html gives locations.

As tiresome as this conversation is becoming, there is just no way a
simple user is going to first of all know to look at that location and
secondly spend the time to read it all while comparing with the mirror
list provided by setup.exe.  *Maybe* if the mirror panel in setup
mentioned that URL some users might look; otherwise, the mirrors.html
page may as well not exist for them.

What's being requested here is simply a button on the mirror selection
page which, when pressed, runs some sort of a ping test for each mirror
and reports the results.  Maybe the mirror list could be sorted from
fastest to slowest after the test completes, or a ping time column could
be added to the display.  It doesn't have to be perfect.  It just needs
to provide a clue and a starting point for new users to select their
first mirror.

All that said, the tone of the requester is not helping the setup
maintainer or the rest of the list really sympathize with his position.
 His points wouldn't be so bad if he merely asked for features and
improvements rather than demand them and belittle the maintainers when
they disagree.  Of course, his ideas might be accepted even quicker if
they were presented as patches.  Cygwin is a volunteer effort after all.

-Jeremy

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Re: installer improvements

[wefwef wefwef]

> All that said, the tone of the requester is not helping the setup
> maintainer or the rest of the list really sympathize with his position.
>  His points wouldn't be so bad if he merely asked for features and
> improvements rather than demand them and belittle the maintainers when
> they disagree.  Of course, his ideas might be accepted even quicker if
> they were presented as patches.  Cygwin is a volunteer effort after all.

Jeremy, I've merely made some suggestions, I certainly didn't or
didn't intend to demand anything. The responses to my suggestions did
not appear to be based on their merit, rather on the fact that I made
them, and I replied in the same tone that the suggestions were met
with.

Chris

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Re: installer improvements

[Christopher Faylor]

On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 05:31:47PM +0300, wefwef wefwef wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 09:01:58AM -0500, Jeremy Bopp wrote:
>>All that said, the tone of the requester is not helping the setup
>>maintainer or the rest of the list really sympathize with his position.
>>?His points wouldn't be so bad if he merely asked for features and
>>improvements rather than demand them and belittle the maintainers when
>>they disagree.  ?Of course, his ideas might be accepted even quicker if
>>they were presented as patches.  ?Cygwin is a volunteer effort after
>>all.
>
>Jeremy, I've merely made some suggestions, I certainly didn't or didn't
>intend to demand anything.  The responses to my suggestions did not
>appear to be based on their merit, rather on the fact that I made them,
>and I replied in the same tone that the suggestions were met with.

Attempts at revisionist history aside, if you'd care to offer patches to
setup they would be objectively considered.

cgf


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[OT] Re: installer improvements

[Dave Korn]

On 07/04/2010 13:18, wefwef wefwef wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 7:29 PM, Morgan Gangwere wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 8:10 AM, wefwef wefwef wrote:
>>>>> After using cygwin for years, and having some recent difficulty
>>>>> installing, I took a look at the installer to actually try and
>>>>> understand it (a novel concept I know!).
>> Your problem was that a package didnt get installed because you would
>> have had to explicitly told it not to have been.
> 
> Nice expla[KERSNIPFLUSHSPLAT]

  Since this debate is heading OT, I posted my response to the -talk list:

http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-talk/2010-q2/msg00002.html

    cheers,
      DaveK

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Re: installer improvements

[Steven E. Harris]

Tim McDaniel <tmcd@panix.com> writes:

> I then clicked on qt3-doc's New value repeatedly to reach Uninstall,
> but on the first click (Reinstall, I think), setup.exe put qt3 back to
> being installed.

It's this same cycling-activates-dependencies problem that makes it
impossible to remove all X Windows-related packages once any one of them
is installed. The relationships between all the font, graphics, and
sound packages is mystifying. I don't want to use any of them, but I
can't seem to get rid of them.

On several occasions I've spent about an hour trying again and again to
request that they all be removed, but there's always one that's a
dependency of something else installed, and if you dare accidentally
cycle through the Skip/Keep/Install/Remove choice one step too far, the
house of cards tumbles down again.

-- 
Steven E. Harris


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Re: installer improvements

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 08:40:38PM +0200, Gary . wrote:
>On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I recognized your name as a non-kook.
>                              ^^^^^^^^
>Urk. Are you sure?

Sorry.  I must be tired.  I let a non-WJM comment sneak by.

cgf

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Re: installer improvements

[Gary .]

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 12:16:42PM +0200, Gary . wrote:
>>Anyway, what I'd really like to know is
...
> I'd suggest that if you have a question or comment about setup it would
> be a good idea to send a message with a specific subject rather than
> trying to use this thread.

Well, to be honest, I think how setup could be improved is a
worthwhile discussion. Setup is the second thing new users see, after
the website, after all.

Anyway, I will start a new thread for my uninstall question.

> I recognized your name as a non-kook.
                              ^^^^^^^^
Urk. Are you sure?

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Re: installer improvements

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 12:16:42PM +0200, Gary . wrote:
>Anyway, what I'd really like to know is, manually parsing the
>setup.ini aside, is there any way to uninstall (say) Cygwin/X all in
>one blow? I spent what felt like hours last night clicking through
>various packages to "uninstall", only for some later package, when
>cycled through "reinstall" on the way to "uninstall", to reset it. I
>considered taking a hammer to it, but didn't want to disturb the
>neighbours at such a late hour. Now *that* would be an improvement to
>setup I could get fully behind (a way of seeing and uninstalling not
>only package A, but all dependant packages as well, not using a hamme
>on the computer).

I'd suggest that if you have a question or comment about setup it would
be a good idea to send a message with a specific subject rather than
trying to use this thread.  I just happened to read this because I
recognized your name as a non-kook.  If the other setup.exe maintainers
are at all similar to me they have given up on this particular thread
a while ago.

cgf

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Re: installer improvements

[Gary .]

"Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]" wrote:
> http://cygwin.com/mirrors.html gives locations.

Doesn't solve the problem entirely. Location isn't the only issue,
despite what estate agents will tell you. There seem to often be
problems with the switch.ch mirror for example, even though it is
probably the closest to me (of course, if I were closer to a border it
might be a French, German, or Italian server, who knows).

I'm not sure I want to wait for pings off all the mirror servers, either.

But, since the website already knows where the mirrors are, and since
the installing computer possibly knows where *it* is (hell, you could
always ask the user, the first time)...

Anyway, what I'd really like to know is, manually parsing the
setup.ini aside, is there any way to uninstall (say) Cygwin/X all in
one blow? I spent what felt like hours last night clicking through
various packages to "uninstall", only for some later package, when
cycled through "reinstall" on the way to "uninstall", to reset it. I
considered taking a hammer to it, but didn't want to disturb the
neighbours at such a late hour. Now *that* would be an improvement to
setup I could get fully behind (a way of seeing and uninstalling not
only package A, but all dependant packages as well, not using a hamme
on the computer).

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