Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Marshall Abrams]

I *love* Cygwin.  I use it to get my work done every day.   I am grateful to 
everyone who has contributed to it over the years and continues to do so. 
Thank you.  That bears repeating: Thank you!

I have one suggestion: I wish that the setup routine was better for... users 
like me who mainly want to get work done, don't care necessarily care 
whether we have the latest versions of every package (honestly, most of 
package changes are irrelevant to most people most of the time (OK, until 
you need it...)), and more than anything else, don't want to break anything 
that works.

One of the beautiful things about Cygwin's setup.exe is that when--perhaps 
in the middle of trying to get something done before a deadline--I realize 
that a Cygwin package I didn't think I'd need would help.  If it hasn't been 
*too* long since I last installed, I go and mark the package to install, 
carefully make sure that I mark all other new packages as "keep", and hit 
next.  Great.  The 1.7 upgrade has made that a pita.  I am *not* going to 
install 1.7.  Not now.   I'm in the middle of a project.  I just wanted one 
little tool.

What I hope will be added is some way to allow setup.exe to look farther 
back in the past, or automatically ignore most package releases. 
Something--something so that I can get the functionality of setup.exe for 
one or two packages when I haven't updated anything for while--because it 
was working fine!  And I don't fix what's not broken.

(I never install everything--I'd be willing to waste the disk space, but too 
often incompatibilities break things.  That's also why I don't upgrade what 
doesn't need upgrading.  One time in five something is installed that screws 
up something I had working.  That's not a complaint; it's inevitable with a 
complex system.   I also don't regularly upgrade everything, because when I 
do I sometimes have to fix something major, or just fix some packages that 
has been "improved" in such a way that I can no longer work the way I want 
without undoing something and recustomizing it.  Again: Inevitable with a 
complex system.)

Last but not least--I can't say it enough:
Thank you!


Marshall Abrams
marshall@logical.net 


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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 07:10:08PM -0500, Marshall Abrams wrote:
>I *love* Cygwin.  I use it to get my work done every day.   I am grateful to 
>everyone who has contributed to it over the years and continues to do so. 
>Thank you.  That bears repeating: Thank you!
>
>I have one suggestion: I wish that the setup routine was better for... users 
>like me who mainly want to get work done, don't care necessarily care 
>whether we have the latest versions of every package (honestly, most of 
>package changes are irrelevant to most people most of the time (OK, until 
>you need it...)), and more than anything else, don't want to break anything 
>that works.
>
>One of the beautiful things about Cygwin's setup.exe is that when--perhaps 
>in the middle of trying to get something done before a deadline--I realize 
>that a Cygwin package I didn't think I'd need would help.  If it hasn't been 
>*too* long since I last installed, I go and mark the package to install, 
>carefully make sure that I mark all other new packages as "keep", and hit 
>next.  Great.  The 1.7 upgrade has made that a pita.  I am *not* going to 
>install 1.7.  Not now.   I'm in the middle of a project.  I just wanted one 
>little tool.

Well Cygwin 1.7.x has been out for 7+ months now so it is you can't
really consider it "new".  But if you don't want to install it you don't
have to.  Just look for the word "legacy" on the web site and use that
to install.

Otherwise, what you are really asking for is a change to Cygwin's release
model.  If you were using Ubuntu or Fedora, you could just download one
package from the "Cute Animal Name" release and choose only the one you
want.  Since we do rolling upgrades of all packages that isn't an option
with Cygwin.

*Although* you should be able to set everything to "keep" and just
update the one package that you want, even with setup.exe as it stands.

cgf

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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Andy Koppe]

On 25 July 2010 03:54, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 07:10:08PM -0500, Marshall Abrams wrote:
>>One of the beautiful things about Cygwin's setup.exe is that when--perhaps
>>in the middle of trying to get something done before a deadline--I realize
>>that a Cygwin package I didn't think I'd need would help.  If it hasn't been
>>*too* long since I last installed, I go and mark the package to install,
>>carefully make sure that I mark all other new packages as "keep", and hit
>>next.
>
> *Although* you should be able to set everything to "keep" and just
> update the one package that you want

... by simply clicking on the Keep button near the top of the package
selection screen.

This makes me wonder whether Keep shouldn't be the default, on the
principle that programs shouldn't do anything unless the user asks for
it.

Also, if you're trying to stick with a proven install, forgetting to
click Keep is much worse then if you're trying to stay up-to-date yet
you forget to change from Keep to Curr. In the first case, you need to
restore a backup assuming you have one, whereas in the second you just
need to run setup again.

Yet of course the argument for having Curr as the default is that we
want to encourage users to update to the latest versions as we can't
support a myriad of different combinations of old package versions.

Hmm. How about leaving the default as is but remembering the state of
Keep/Curr/Prev/Exp across setup.exe invocations? Would a patch for
that be welcome?

Andy

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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Andy Koppe!

> This makes me wonder whether Keep shouldn't be the default, on the
> principle that programs shouldn't do anything unless the user asks for
> it.

Strange principle. Setup is intended to install/update Cygwin installation.
Of course it offer to update whatever is available for update. Why shouldn't
it?


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 Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@freemail.ru) 26.07.2010, <13:31>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Andy Koppe]

#On 26 July 2010 10:32, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, Andy Koppe!

Здравствуйте!


>> This makes me wonder whether Keep shouldn't be the default, on the
>> principle that programs shouldn't do anything unless the user asks for
>> it.
>
> Strange principle.

It's the "Principle of Least Surprise".


> Setup is intended to install/update Cygwin installation.
> Of course it offer to update whatever is available for update.
> Why shouldn't it?

Yes, of course it should offer them, the issue is that it
clandestinely sticks them into users' shopping trolleys and then makes
them pay for it. At least some users do get surprised by setup.exe
pre-selecting updates without making that obvious, such that the first
they know about it is when large packages they didn't pick start
downloading. (Setup.exe's behaviour is of course documented, alas,
manuals don't usually get read until there are problems, if at all.)

Having said that, I do think that encouraging users to update to the
latest versions is a good thing, but it would be nice to do it less
sneakily. I don't know how though.

Remembering the Keep/Curr/Prev/Exp setting across setup.exe
invocations would just make it easier for users like the OP to opt out
of updates.

Andy

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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Christopher Faylor]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 12:52:48PM +0100, Andy Koppe wrote:
>#On 26 July 2010 10:32, Andrey Repin wrote:
>> Greetings, Andy Koppe!
>>> This makes me wonder whether Keep shouldn't be the default, on the
>>> principle that programs shouldn't do anything unless the user asks for
>>> it.
>>
>> Strange principle.
>
>It's the "Principle of Least Surprise".

You can't argue that point if it would obviously surprise Andrey.  It
would surprise me too given that it would be a profound departure from
previous behavior regardless of whether previous behavior was "right" or
"wrong".

And, just imagine the mailing list confusion:  "Did you update to the
latest version of the bushwa package?"  "Yes!  I ran setup.exe seven
times so it must be updated!  Stop being so brusque and unhelpful!"

If we wanted to do something like this I think it would have to be a
separate dialog where the user makes a decision about what they want.
Either that or a list of packages to update would always be presented
so that people wouldn't be surprised.

cgf

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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Andy Koppe]

On 26 July 2010 15:29, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 12:52:48PM +0100, Andy Koppe wrote:
>>#On 26 July 2010 10:32, Andrey Repin wrote:
>>>> This makes me wonder whether Keep shouldn't be the default, on the
>>>> principle that programs shouldn't do anything unless the user asks for
>>>> it.
>>>
>>> Strange principle.
>>
>>It's the "Principle of Least Surprise".
>
> You can't argue that point if it would obviously surprise Andrey.  It
> would surprise me too given that it would be a profound departure from
> previous behavior regardless of whether previous behavior was "right" or
> "wrong".

Yes, existing users always get shafted by UI changes (initially
anyway), so it's short-term pain vs long-term gain. But in my
ramblings I'd come down against changing the default from 'Curr' to
'Keep' anyway.

> If we wanted to do something like this I think it would have to be a
> separate dialog where the user makes a decision about what they want.
> Either that or a list of packages to update would always be presented
> so that people wouldn't be surprised.

Agreed, but of course that'd need substantial design and
implementation work, so realistically it isn't gonna happen.

Okay, detour over.

Now what about my actual proposal, which was to save the
Keep/Curr/Prev/Exp setting across setup.exe invocations?

Andy

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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Christopher Faylor]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 04:15:19PM +0100, Andy Koppe wrote:
>On 26 July 2010 15:29, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 12:52:48PM +0100, Andy Koppe wrote:
>> If we wanted to do something like this I think it would have to be a
>> separate dialog where the user makes a decision about what they want.
>> Either that or a list of packages to update would always be presented
>> so that people wouldn't be surprised.
>
>Agreed, but of course that'd need substantial design and
>implementation work, so realistically it isn't gonna happen.

AFAIK, the latter, where a list of what's being updated is shown isn't a
substantial redesign.

>Okay, detour over.
>
>Now what about my actual proposal, which was to save the
>Keep/Curr/Prev/Exp setting across setup.exe invocations?

I think making it sticky would lead to the confusion that I previously
mentioned so I'm not in favor of it.

However, I don't feel so strongly that I'd actually veto the change
if others think it is important.

cgf

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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Andy Koppe]

On 26 July 2010 18:09, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>> If we wanted to do something like this I think it would have to be a
>>> separate dialog where the user makes a decision about what they want.
>>> Either that or a list of packages to update would always be presented
>>> so that people wouldn't be surprised.
>>
>>Agreed, but of course that'd need substantial design and
>>implementation work, so realistically it isn't gonna happen.
>
> AFAIK, the latter, where a list of what's being updated is shown isn't a
> substantial redesign.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean adding a new screen before the package
selection screen?

>>Now what about my actual proposal, which was to save the
>>Keep/Curr/Prev/Exp setting across setup.exe invocations?
>
> I think making it sticky would lead to the confusion that I previously
> mentioned so I'm not in favor of it.

Fair enough.

> However, I don't feel so strongly that I'd actually veto the change
> if others think it is important.

The silence is deafening. I better give that a miss then.

Andy

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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 06:45:41PM +0100, Andy Koppe wrote:
>On 26 July 2010 18:09, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>>> If we wanted to do something like this I think it would have to be a
>>>> separate dialog where the user makes a decision about what they want.
>>>> Either that or a list of packages to update would always be presented
>>>> so that people wouldn't be surprised.
>>>
>>>Agreed, but of course that'd need substantial design and
>>>implementation work, so realistically it isn't gonna happen.
>>
>> AFAIK, the latter, where a list of what's being updated is shown isn't a
>> substantial redesign.
>
>Can you elaborate? Do you mean adding a new screen before the package
>selection screen?

No, a screen after the package selection which shows all of the packages
which are being installed - which is, I guess, basically what is now
(until your rename change goes live) the "Partial" view.

That's how linux package managers do it.

cgf

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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Andy Koppe!

>>> This makes me wonder whether Keep shouldn't be the default, on the
>>> principle that programs shouldn't do anything unless the user asks for
>>> it.
>>
>> Strange principle.

> It's the "Principle of Least Surprise".


>> Setup is intended to install/update Cygwin installation.
>> Of course it offer to update whatever is available for update.
>> Why shouldn't it?

> Yes, of course it should offer them, the issue is that it
> clandestinely sticks them into users' shopping trolleys and then makes
> them pay for it. At least some users do get surprised by setup.exe
> pre-selecting updates without making that obvious, such that the first
> they know about it is when large packages they didn't pick start
> downloading. (Setup.exe's behaviour is of course documented, alas,
> manuals don't usually get read until there are problems, if at all.)

> Having said that, I do think that encouraging users to update to the
> latest versions is a good thing, but it would be nice to do it less
> sneakily. I don't know how though.

> Remembering the Keep/Curr/Prev/Exp setting across setup.exe
> invocations would just make it easier for users like the OP to opt out
> of updates.

The summary page with expected download size listed wouldn't be bad addition,
I agree.


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WBR,
 Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@freemail.ru) 26.07.2010, <23:20>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Daniel Colascione]

On 7/24/10 5:10 PM, Marshall Abrams wrote:
> I have one suggestion: I wish that the setup routine was better for...
> users like me who mainly want to get work done, don't care necessarily
> care whether we have the latest versions of every package (honestly,
> most of package changes are irrelevant to most people most of the time
> (OK, until you need it...)), and more than anything else, don't want to
> break anything that works.

I understand your desire to be conservative, but 1.7 works rather well.
It's not particularly painful, and you can just back up your
installation (perhaps with tar --one-file-system) before trying it out.

Also, keep in mind that you're not required to use Cygwin's package
system. Just as in any other unixy system, can you compile the latest
version of whatever package you need from source and stick the the
result in /usr/local. (I recommend using GNU stow and DESTDIR to keep
everything straight.)

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Re: Request for feature: more flexible setup routine

[Jeremy Bopp]

On 07/24/2010 07:10 PM, Marshall Abrams wrote:
> I am *not* going to install 1.7.  Not now.   I'm in the
> middle of a project.  I just wanted one little tool.

It sounds like you're still running Cygwin 1.5.  While it's no longer
supported, you can download setup-legacy.exe from cygwin.com and use
that to update your installation and avoid the full upgrade to Cygwin
1.7.  Keep in mind, however, that Cygwin 1.5 and its associated packages
have not seen any maintenance since December 2009.  Given your
situation, that will likely suit you fine.

> What I hope will be added is some way to allow setup.exe to look farther
> back in the past, or automatically ignore most package releases.
> Something--something so that I can get the functionality of setup.exe
> for one or two packages when I haven't updated anything for
> while--because it was working fine!

Google for the Cygwin Time Machine.  That should let you peer back in
time with quite a bit of granularity and install what you find using an
unmodified setup.exe.  I think you may need to grab a pre-Cygwin 1.7
version of setup.exe from somewhere, though, in order to make use of the
time machine.  Maybe the time machine will have something appropriate
you can use.

>   And I don't fix what's not broken.

What you see as not broken, may be quite broken for a newer package
which has a dependency you refused to update.  Deference to the package
maintainers is well-advised.

> One time in five something is
> installed that screws up something I had working.  That's not a
> complaint; it's inevitable with a complex system.  I also don't
> regularly upgrade everything, because when I do I sometimes have to fix
> something major, or just fix some packages that has been "improved" in
> such a way that I can no longer work the way I want without undoing
> something and recustomizing it.  Again: Inevitable with a complex system.)

I think it's pretty abnormal to have problems resulting from updates in
1 out of every 5 update attempts.  I update all my installed packages
once every few weeks, and when I add packages, I allow setup to update
all the others as necessary.  I rarely experience failures or
incompatibilities with my configurations, but my coworkers who virtually
never update frequently have the troubles you're trying to avoid when
they are eventually forced to do so.

Your update difficulties are likely the result of a combination of
manually holding package revisions back and updating infrequently.  In
the first case you risk missing critical package updates, and in the
second case you will most likely accumulate a large number of poorly
documented migration steps which must be performed all at once in the
proper sequence.  You might find it advantageous to perform full updates
on a monthly schedule so that you can plan for possible downtime and
take the work in sips rather than drink from a fire hose.

If you're really worried about being unable to roll back an unsuccessful
update, copy your entire Cygwin installation directory to a backup
location before running setup.exe and then perform a full update of all
installed packages.  If the update breaks something, restore the
installation directory from the backup.  Then retry the update,
restricting what gets updated, until you get the best behavior possible.
 This should work for both Cygwin 1.5 and 1.7.

Good luck.

-Jeremy

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