From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26976 invoked by alias); 17 Feb 2006 21:55:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 26967 invoked by uid 22791); 17 Feb 2006 21:55:30 -0000 X-Spam-Check-By: sourceware.org Received: from mail-relay4.elsevier.com (HELO MAIL-RELAY4.elsevier.com) (63.125.147.40) by sourceware.org (qpsmtpd/0.31) with ESMTP; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 21:55:26 +0000 Received: from elsstls17525.elsevier.com (unverified) by MAIL-RELAY4.elsevier.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.14) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:54:29 -0600 Received: by elsstls17525.elsevier.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <1QCWWVTC>; Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:55:23 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Dill, Jens (END-CHI)" To: cygwin@cygwin.com Subject: RE: cygheap base mismatch detected Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:33:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mailing-List: contact cygwin-help@cygwin.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Subscribe: List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com Mail-Followup-To: cygwin@cygwin.com X-SW-Source: 2006-02/txt/msg00639.txt.bz2 Dave Korn wrote >On 17 February 2006 19:21, Brian Dessent wrote: > >> Dave Korn wrote: >> >>> Absolutely so. I reckon doing a proper rebaseall that includes the >>> oracle dlls should make a noticeable difference. >> >> This is important. The rebaseall script only knows about DLLs installed >> via setup.exe. So, you will need to provide a list of any additional >> DLLs that you want rebased, with the -T argument. > > Sorry for not being clearer, yes, that's exactly what I meant by 'proper' > and 'includes the oracle dlls', but I didn't go lookup the exact syntax. > >> I haven't been following this thread all that closely, but are we >> talking about allocating a single large contiguous memory region? > > Say, Brian, you are ponderin' what we've been ponderin'! ;-) > > >> Because if you try to allocate it all at once then the DLL layout will >> matter, but if it's done as a series of smaller allocations then this >> should be irrelevant. > > Yep, it's the old huge-contiguous-allocation problem again. > > > cheers, > DaveK I'd be a fool if I hadn't looked at that early on. My test scripts for large contiguous allocations have all shown that I can allocate 1.5 GB with a minimal program and no DLLs. With the two dozen or so DLLs and my full app, I expect to use up to 120 Mb of memory for code. Fragment that as you will, in 1536 Mb, you still leave space for decent sized allocations. I know of no part of my app that allocates anywhere near even 1 Mb of static space contiguously. Dynamic allocation is not a concern, since the program never gets to the point of starting execution. And I can say the same for dynamic allocation anyway. If we relied on huge contiguous allocations, we wouldn't have an app that ran anywhere. I did try rebaseall. It told me all the Oracle DLLs were not rebaseable. The -v output is included below. Interestingly enough, the app does run from a Windows CMD window. It's just that it is configured to be launched from a Korn shell script, and one of our *reasons* for choosing CygWin was that we would not have to rewrite our launch scripts as .bat files. The app fails when launched from either bash or ksh, either by exec or as a child process. It launches fine from Windows CMD but dies because it doesn't have the proper environment. So it seems you were right about the relationship of the addresses of the CygWin DLL in the parent (shell) and child (app). Could I "fix" the problem by providing a stripped-down app that links all the DLLs and and all the same static libraries, but does nothing but launch a shell, which can then be used to launch the real app? -- Jens /usr/bin/tclpip84.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /usr/share/terminfo/a/ansi+sgrso: skipped because not rebaseable /usr/share/terminfo/c/cons60-iso: skipped because not rebaseable /usr/share/terminfo/x/xterm-boldso: skipped because not rebaseable /usr/share/xemacs/xemacs-packages/etc/psgml-dtds/ISO_8879-1986/entities/ISOa mso: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/orasql9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oracore9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oranls9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oraunls9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/MSVCRT.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/KERNEL32.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/ntdll.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/WSOCK32.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/WS2_32.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/ADVAPI32.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/RPCRT4.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/WS2HELP.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/ole32.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/GDI32.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/USER32.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/WINMM.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oraclient9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oravsn9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oracommon9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/orageneric9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oraxml9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/MSVCIRT.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oraxsd9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oran9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oranl9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oranldap9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/orannzsbb9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oraldapclnt9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/orancrypt9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/OLEAUT32.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/ORATRACE9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oranro9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oranhost9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oranoname9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/orancds9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/orantns9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oranms.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oranmsp.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/orapls9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/oraslax9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/orasnls9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable /cygdrive/d/oracle/app/oracle/product/9.2.0/bin/orawtc9.dll: skipped because not rebaseable ReBaseImage (/usr/bin/cygwin1.dll) failed with last error = 6 e = 6e460000, new size = 80000 /usr/bin/cyggd-2.dll: new base = 6e400000, new size = 60000 /usr/bin/cyggdbm.dll: new base = 6e3e0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cyggdbm-3.dll: new base = 6e3c0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cyggdbm_compat-3.dll: new base = 6e3a0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cyggdbm-4.dll: new base = 6e380000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cyggdbm_compat-4.dll: new base = 6e360000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygguile-12.dll: new base = 6e2c0000, new size = a0000 /usr/bin/cygguile-ltdl-1.dll: new base = 6e2a0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygguilereadline-v-12-12.dll: new base = 6e280000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygguile-srfi-srfi-13-14-v-1-1.dll: new base = 6e250000, new size = 30000 /usr/bin/cygguile-srfi-srfi-4-v-1-1.dll: new base = 6e230000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygguile-16.dll: new base = 6e160000, new size = d0000 /usr/bin/cygguile-srfi-srfi-13-14-v-2-2.dll: new base = 6e140000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygguile-srfi-srfi-4-v-2-2.dll: new base = 6e120000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygiconv-2.dll: new base = 6e010000, new size = 110000 /usr/bin/cygintl.dll: new base = 6dff0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygintl-1.dll: new base = 6dfd0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygintl-2.dll: new base = 6dfb0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygintl-3.dll: new base = 6df90000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygjpeg-62.dll: new base = 6df50000, new size = 40000 /usr/bin/cygkpathsea-3.dll: new base = 6df20000, new size = 30000 /usr/bin/cygkpathsea-4.dll: new base = 6def0000, new size = 30000 /usr/bin/cygltdl-3.dll: new base = 6ded0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygform5.dll: new base = 6deb0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygmenu5.dll: new base = 6de90000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygncurses++5.dll: new base = 6de50000, new size = 40000 /usr/bin/cygncurses5.dll: new base = 6de00000, new size = 50000 /usr/bin/cygpanel5.dll: new base = 6dde0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygform6.dll: new base = 6ddc0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygmenu6.dll: new base = 6dda0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygncurses++6.dll: new base = 6dd60000, new size = 40000 /usr/bin/cygncurses6.dll: new base = 6dd10000, new size = 50000 /usr/bin/cygpanel6.dll: new base = 6dcf0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygform7.dll: new base = 6dcc0000, new size = 30000 /usr/bin/cygmenu7.dll: new base = 6dca0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygncurses7.dll: new base = 6dc50000, new size = 50000 /usr/bin/cygpanel7.dll: new base = 6dc30000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygform-8.dll: new base = 6dc10000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygmenu-8.dll: new base = 6dbf0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygncurses++-8.dll: new base = 6dbc0000, new size = 30000 /usr/bin/cygncurses-8.dll: new base = 6db70000, new size = 50000 /usr/bin/cygpanel-8.dll: new base = 6db50000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygnetpbm-10.dll: new base = 6db10000, new size = 40000 /usr/bin/cyglber-2-2-7.dll: new base = 6daf0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygldap-2-2-7.dll: new base = 6daa0000, new size = 50000 /usr/bin/cygldap_r-2-2-7.dll: new base = 6da50000, new size = 50000 /usr/bin/cygpcre-0.dll: new base = 6da00000, new size = 50000 /usr/bin/cygpcrecpp-0.dll: new base = 6d990000, new size = 70000 /usr/bin/cygpcreposix-0.dll: new base = 6d970000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygpng12.dll: new base = 6d920000, new size = 50000 /usr/bin/cygpopt-0.dll: new base = 6d900000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cyghistory4.dll: new base = 6d8e0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygreadline4.dll: new base = 6d8b0000, new size = 30000 /usr/bin/cyghistory5.dll: new base = 6d890000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygreadline5.dll: new base = 6d850000, new size = 40000 /usr/bin/cyghistory6.dll: new base = 6d830000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygreadline6.dll: new base = 6d7f0000, new size = 40000 /usr/bin/cygsasl2-2.dll: new base = 6d7c0000, new size = 30000 /usr/lib/sasl2/cyganonymous-2.dll: new base = 6d7a0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/sasl2/cygcrammd5-2.dll: new base = 6d780000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/sasl2/cygdigestmd5-2.dll: new base = 6d750000, new size = 30000 /usr/lib/sasl2/cygotp-2.dll: new base = 6d720000, new size = 30000 /usr/lib/sasl2/cygplain-2.dll: new base = 6d700000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/sasl2/cygsasldb-2.dll: new base = 6d6e0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygtiff4.dll: new base = 6d680000, new size = 60000 /usr/bin/cygtiff-5.dll: new base = 6d610000, new size = 70000 /usr/bin/cygtiffxx-5.dll: new base = 6d5b0000, new size = 60000 /usr/bin/cygungif-4.dll: new base = 6d590000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygxml2-2.dll: new base = 6d410000, new size = 180000 /usr/bin/mgwbz2-1.dll: new base = 6d3e0000, new size = 30000 /usr/bin/mingwm10.dll: new base = 6d3c0000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/mgwz.dll: new base = 6d390000, new size = 30000 /usr/bin/cygminires.dll: new base = 6d370000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/libcruft.dll: new base = 6d2c0000, new size = b0000 /usr/bin/liboctave.dll: new base = 6cab0000, new size = 810000 /usr/bin/liboctinterp.dll: new base = 6c0e0000, new size = 9d0000 /usr/bin/cygcrypto-0.9.8.dll: new base = 6bfc0000, new size = 120000 /usr/bin/cygssl-0.9.8.dll: new base = 6bf70000, new size = 50000 /usr/lib/engines/lib4758cca.so: new base = 6bf50000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/engines/libaep.so: new base = 6bf30000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/engines/libatalla.so: new base = 6bf10000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/engines/libchil.so: new base = 6bef0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/engines/libcswift.so: new base = 6bed0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/engines/libgmp.so: new base = 6beb0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/engines/libnuron.so: new base = 6be90000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/engines/libsureware.so: new base = 6be70000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/engines/libubsec.so: new base = 6be50000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygcrypto-0.9.7.dll: new base = 6bd50000, new size = 100000 /usr/bin/cygssl-0.9.7.dll: new base = 6bd10000, new size = 40000 /usr/bin/cygperl5_8.dll: new base = 6bbc0000, new size = 150000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/attrs/attrs.dll: new base = 6bba0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/B/B.dll: new base = 6bb60000, new size = 40000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/B/C/C.dll: new base = 6bb40000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/ByteLoader/ByteLoader.dll: new base = 6bb20000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Cwd/Cwd.dll: new base = 6bb00000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Data/Dumper/Dumper.dll: new base = 6bae0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/DB_File/DB_File.dll: new base = 6bab0000, new size = 30000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Devel/DProf/DProf.dll: new base = 6ba90000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Devel/Peek/Peek.dll: new base = 6ba70000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Devel/PPPort/PPPort.dll: new base = 6ba40000, new size = 30000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Digest/MD5/MD5.dll: new base = 6ba20000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Encode/Byte/Byte.dll: new base = 6b9e0000, new size = 40000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Encode/CN/CN.dll: new base = 6b910000, new size = d0000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Encode/EBCDIC/EBCDIC.dll: new base = 6b8f0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Encode/Encode.dll: new base = 6b8d0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Encode/JP/JP.dll: new base = 6b7e0000, new size = f0000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Encode/KR/KR.dll: new base = 6b700000, new size = e0000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Encode/Symbol/Symbol.dll: new base = 6b6e0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Encode/TW/TW.dll: new base = 6b610000, new size = d0000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Encode/Unicode/Unicode.dll: new base = 6b5f0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Fcntl/Fcntl.dll: new base = 6b5d0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/File/Glob/Glob.dll: new base = 6b5b0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Filter/Util/Call/Call.dll: new base = 6b590000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/GDBM_File/GDBM_File.dll: new base = 6b570000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/I18N/Langinfo/Langinfo.dll: new base = 6b550000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/IO/IO.dll: new base = 6b530000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/IPC/SysV/SysV.dll: new base = 6b510000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/List/Util/Util.dll: new base = 6b4f0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/MIME/Base64/Base64.dll: new base = 6b4d0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/NDBM_File/NDBM_File.dll: new base = 6b4b0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/ODBM_File/ODBM_File.dll: new base = 6b490000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Opcode/Opcode.dll: new base = 6b470000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/PerlIO/encoding/encoding.dll: new base = 6b450000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/PerlIO/scalar/scalar.dll: new base = 6b430000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/PerlIO/via/via.dll: new base = 6b410000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/POSIX/POSIX.dll: new base = 6b3e0000, new size = 30000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/re/re.dll: new base = 6b3a0000, new size = 40000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/SDBM_File/SDBM_File.dll: new base = 6b380000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Socket/Socket.dll: new base = 6b360000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Storable/Storable.dll: new base = 6b330000, new size = 30000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Sys/Hostname/Hostname.dll: new base = 6b310000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Sys/Syslog/Syslog.dll: new base = 6b2f0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/threads/shared/shared.dll: new base = 6b2d0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/threads/threads.dll: new base = 6b2b0000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Time/HiRes/HiRes.dll: new base = 6b290000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/Unicode/Normalize/Normalize.dll: new base = 6b240000, new size = 50000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/XS/APItest/APItest.dll: new base = 6b220000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/5.8/cygwin/auto/XS/Typemap/Typemap.dll: new base = 6b200000, new size = 20000 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Compress/Bzip2/Bzip2.dll: new base = 6b1d0000, new size = 30000 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Compress/Zlib/Zlib.dll: new base = 6b190000, new size = 40000 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8/cygwin/auto/Proc/ProcessTable/ProcessTable.dl l: new base = 6b170000, new size = 20000 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/usr/X11R6/bin/cygXtst-6.dll: new base = 69c10000, new size = 20000 /usr/X11R6/bin/cygdps-1.dll: new base = 69bb0000, new size = 60000 /usr/X11R6/bin/cygdpstk-1.dll: new base = 69b90000, new size = 20000 /usr/X11R6/bin/cygfontenc-1.dll: new base = 69b70000, new size = 20000 /usr/X11R6/bin/cygoldX-6.dll: new base = 69b50000, new size = 20000 /usr/X11R6/bin/cygpsres-1.dll: new base = 69b30000, new size = 20000 /usr/X11R6/bin/cygxkbfile-1.dll: new base = 69af0000, new size = 40000 /usr/X11R6/bin/cygxkbui-1.dll: new base = 69ad0000, new size = 20000 /usr/X11R6/bin/cygxrx-6.dll: new base = 69ab0000, new size = 20000 /usr/X11R6/bin/cygxrxnest-6.dll: new base = 69a90000, new size = 20000 /usr/bin/cygz.dll: new base = 69a60000, new size = 30000 /cygdrive/d/m1/voyagerdev/2006.1/bin/cygxerces-c27.dll: new base = 69690000, new size = 3d0000 -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: 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