RE: WTF?!

RE: WTF?!

[Churchill, Dan (MN65)]

> Cristopher, why dont just you stop reading those posts which actually 
> dont tend to be good enough for you ? I think if point 1 applies to
> you then you are not being paid to read the mailing lists too 
> - are you
> ?
> So "silly" mails are easily to be recognized - you can just pass them
> by.

Chris, you are obviously a _very_ intelligent programmer/person in general
(I have been reading the list for several weeks now).  No one would complain
if you restricted yourself to only answering questions that require your
knowledge, either as a developer of Cygwin or as a list maintainer.  This is
a public list with lots of other readers who are not anywhere near your
level of knowledge of this project, but who are intelligent enough to field
questions that have obvious (to you, but not to everybody) answers.

If I ask a question of a list, I expect to get an answer or not.  If not, I
assume no one has information for me and I'll look elsewhere.  I would only
expect to be badgered for asking a question if I repeatedly sent the same
thing over and over, i.e. if I *insisted* on having an answer from the list.
Caustic put-downs are an excellent way to drive people away from using
Cygwin at all, more than a few of whom could make a positive contribution,
if not to the actual code base, then to answering the questions of new users
that would otherwise suck all your time away from the important work you do.
I do appreciate your frustration with people who can't open the readme files
and figure out their own problems, and who are only in search of a quick
fix, but there are going to be some (Windows) users (of Visual SourceSafe)
who don't even know what a CVS is, let alone how to use it.

I appreciate the work that Chris and all the other developer's do on this
list and on Cygwin.  This list is a great resource and I think that someone
who needs to have a question answered and doesn't have the option of
spending hours or days tracking down the source of a problem should be able
to post in search of someone who's already solved their problem without
being flamed out the door.

Just my $.02 worth.  I'm sure I'll hear about it.

-Dan

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Re: WTF?!

[Robert Collins]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Churchill, Dan (MN65)" <churchill_dan@htc.honeywell.com>
To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 2:23 AM
Subject: RE: WTF?!


> Chris, you are obviously a _very_ intelligent programmer/person in
general
> (I have been reading the list for several weeks now).  No one would
complain
> if you restricted yourself to only answering questions that require
your
> knowledge, either as a developer of Cygwin or as a list maintainer.
This is
> a public list with lots of other readers who are not anywhere near
your
> level of knowledge of this project, but who are intelligent enough to
field
> questions that have obvious (to you, but not to everybody) answers.

Yup, and "we" (old timers) know this. In fact on the devel list we have
had discussions about how to address this. Chris at one point
deliberately did not email unless questions seemed missed. And we all
stuck up hands to answer various questions. Earnie covers "look here"
ones. I cover pthreads and thread questions. And so on.

It is *hard* when you care about a product to let those asking for help
go unanswered. One thing worth noting is that Chris *did not* field the
question, until three!!! (or was it two?!) incorrect responses followed
up the first one. So Chris was stepping in and saying "you've got this
wrong". And thats an important thing to do, otherwise those answers
spread misinformation...

That aside though, I agree with most of what you said.

Rob


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Re: WTF?!

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 01:47 PM 9/20/2001, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 03:29:20AM +1000, Robert Praetorius wrote:
> >perhaps if the main cygwin mailing list were renamed to cygwin-
> >asbestos-longjohns ( http://www.cnam.fr/Jargon/jargon.html?64 ) 
> >it would set expectations in a way that would cut down the level 
> >of shock and surprise (I'm not shocked, but I'm pretty much in 
> >agreement with http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-
> >questions.html ).
> >
> >Naahhh.  Nothing would be sufficient.  This is life on the net.  
> >The unacculturated proportion of the stream never goes down 
> >because of the continual influx.
>
>Wow.  That's a discouraging (if true) observation.
>
>I think the usual observation at this point is "If you really think
>that those are flames you don't know what flames are".
>
>I think it may be time for a "death of cygwin unless changes are made"
>prediction, too.  Or did we already have that?



More or less.  I think we've run through the standard check list of 
complaints and rebuttals.  The cycle is complete.  It's time to leave 
this merry-go-round until another day.  There's nothing more to see here.  
Back to work! ;-)



Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
118 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: WTF?!

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 03:29:20AM +1000, Robert Praetorius wrote:
>perhaps if the main cygwin mailing list were renamed to cygwin-
>asbestos-longjohns ( http://www.cnam.fr/Jargon/jargon.html?64 ) 
>it would set expectations in a way that would cut down the level 
>of shock and surprise (I'm not shocked, but I'm pretty much in 
>agreement with http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-
>questions.html ).
>
>Naahhh.  Nothing would be sufficient.  This is life on the net.  
>The unacculturated proportion of the stream never goes down 
>because of the continual influx.

Wow.  That's a discouraging (if true) observation.

I think the usual observation at this point is "If you really think
that those are flames you don't know what flames are".

I think it may be time for a "death of cygwin unless changes are made"
prediction, too.  Or did we already have that?

cgf

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Re: WTF?!

[Robert Praetorius]

perhaps if the main cygwin mailing list were renamed to cygwin-
asbestos-longjohns ( http://www.cnam.fr/Jargon/jargon.html?64 ) 
it would set expectations in a way that would cut down the level 
of shock and surprise (I'm not shocked, but I'm pretty much in 
agreement with http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-
questions.html ).

Naahhh.  Nothing would be sufficient.  This is life on the net.  
The unacculturated proportion of the stream never goes down 
because of the continual influx.


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Re: WTF?!

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 12:50 PM 9/20/2001, Pavel Tsekov wrote:
>"Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)" wrote:
> > 
> > At 12:28 PM 9/20/2001, Pavel Tsekov wrote:
> > >Christopher Faylor wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Why were you discussing solutions at all when I already suggested that
> > > > people either use the CVS version or remove the offending file from the
> > > > makefile?
> > >
> > >I dont see the solution from you - I really don't. I read the mailing
> > >list from
> > >my local mailbox not from the web - here I have only four (4) messages
> > >from you
> > >an none of them say somethings of actually fixing the problem. The only
> > >post which
> > >gives any useful info says this:
> > >
> > >----
> > 
> > <snip>
> > 
> > >If this is too tough for you, try removing the offending file from the
> > >makefile or building from CVS sources.
> > 
> > Wow, Pavel!  I can't believe you missed this part!  Apparently you misread
> > this original message from Chris at least twice.  I assume now that I
> > pointed out Chris's suggestion in the original posting (which you
> > thoughtfully appended to your message! :-) ), you see what you
> > missed.  If you don't agree with the way he answered you, well, I can't
> > help you there.  However, it seems clear to me that he offered very useful
> > information initially.  YMMV.
>
>Yeah, it seems I missed it. Thanks for enlightening me. Although this is
>not the
>appropriate way for answering the question as it comes to me.


To each his own.




Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
118 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: WTF?!

[Pavel Tsekov]

"Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)" wrote:
> 
> At 12:28 PM 9/20/2001, Pavel Tsekov wrote:
> >Christopher Faylor wrote:
> > >
> > > Why were you discussing solutions at all when I already suggested that
> > > people either use the CVS version or remove the offending file from the
> > > makefile?
> >
> >I dont see the solution from you - I really don't. I read the mailing
> >list from
> >my local mailbox not from the web - here I have only four (4) messages
> >from you
> >an none of them say somethings of actually fixing the problem. The only
> >post which
> >gives any useful info says this:
> >
> >----
> 
> <snip>
> 
> >If this is too tough for you, try removing the offending file from the
> >makefile or building from CVS sources.
> 
> Wow, Pavel!  I can't believe you missed this part!  Apparently you misread
> this original message from Chris at least twice.  I assume now that I
> pointed out Chris's suggestion in the original posting (which you
> thoughtfully appended to your message! :-) ), you see what you
> missed.  If you don't agree with the way he answered you, well, I can't
> help you there.  However, it seems clear to me that he offered very useful
> information initially.  YMMV.

Yeah, it seems I missed it. Thanks for enlightening me. Although this is
not the
appropriate way for answering the question as it comes to me.

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Re: WTF?!

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:28:32PM +0200, Pavel Tsekov wrote:
>Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> >I think if point 1 applies to you then you are not being paid to read
>> >the mailing lists too - are you ?
>> 
>> No.  I'm not.  Would you like me to ignore all of the email I get
>> relating to keeping this mailing list running, too?  I could just turn
>> the mailing list off.  That would be a lot easier.
>
>This is not what I mean of course. The line below should explain it.

No.  I don't think you understand.  I get *a lot* of email from people
off-list who are completely confused about how to use the mailing list.
It would be truly wonderful if I didn't have to deal with that email on
a daily basis.  I'd love to just classify it as silly and forget about
it.

I'm not going to do that, of course because there isn't anyone else
available for dealing with these issues.

Similarly when the third "I can't compile libiberty" message came in, I
assumed that everyone was obviously thinking about the problem
incorrectly and no one was actually going to offer a solution.  So, I
offered an observation and a solution.

cgf

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Re: WTF?!

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 12:28 PM 9/20/2001, Pavel Tsekov wrote:
>Christopher Faylor wrote:
> > 
> > Why were you discussing solutions at all when I already suggested that
> > people either use the CVS version or remove the offending file from the
> > makefile?
>
>I dont see the solution from you - I really don't. I read the mailing
>list from
>my local mailbox not from the web - here I have only four (4) messages
>from you
>an none of them say somethings of actually fixing the problem. The only
>post which
>gives any useful info says this:
>
>----

<snip>

>If this is too tough for you, try removing the offending file from the
>makefile or building from CVS sources.


Wow, Pavel!  I can't believe you missed this part!  Apparently you misread
this original message from Chris at least twice.  I assume now that I 
pointed out Chris's suggestion in the original posting (which you 
thoughtfully appended to your message! :-) ), you see what you
missed.  If you don't agree with the way he answered you, well, I can't 
help you there.  However, it seems clear to me that he offered very useful 
information initially.  YMMV. 





Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
118 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: WTF?!

[Pavel Tsekov]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 05:40:25PM +0200, Pavel Tsekov wrote:
> >Cristopher, why dont just you stop reading those posts which actually
> >dont tend to be good enough for you ?
> 
> Because I am mean.

I know you are :)

> 
> >I think if point 1 applies to you then you are not being paid to read
> >the mailing lists too - are you ?
> 
> No.  I'm not.  Would you like me to ignore all of the email I get
> relating to keeping this mailing list running, too?  I could just turn
> the mailing list off.  That would be a lot easier.

This is not what I mean of course. The line below should explain it.

> 
> >So "silly" mails are easily to be recognized - you can just pass them
> >by.
> 
> If the "silly" emails are so easily recognized then why were you
> contributing to the discussion?
> 
> Why were you discussing making modifications to libiberty which had
> already been done in CVS?

I saw it actually after I posted the first mail from me concerning the
problem. It was late - I'm sorry. I stated that clear in the second one.
However I didnt discuss fixes of liberty but a way to fix the fix for
liberty.
I.e. I felt that this is the right way to do the thing - fixing the
testcase
with respect to autoconf.

> 
> Why were you discussing solutions at all when I already suggested that
> people either use the CVS version or remove the offending file from the
> makefile?

I dont see the solution from you - I really don't. I read the mailing
list from
my local mailbox not from the web - here I have only four (4) messages
from you
an none of them say somethings of actually fixing the problem. The only
post which
gives any useful info says this:

----
It is just C source code we're talking about, right?  You have an
editor?
Look at the place where the errors are coming from and make an
educated guess about fixing it.

What is the worse that can happen?  If you screw up do you think that
this will cause gcc to subtly miscompile your code so that all of the
add instructions are turned into sub instructions or something?  That's
not going to happen.

You are all programmers right?  Inspect the code.  Invest five minutes
worth of analysis into the problem.

If this is too tough for you, try removing the offending file from the
makefile or building from CVS sources.

I can't believe that there are three messages on this subject from
people
who are apparently programmers without one suggested fix.
---- 

I dont blame you or anyone - just there are too much msgs like that one 
above - I dont see way should be messages like that. Or like "go to read
how to ask smart questions" etc. This wont change anything - at least I
think
so.

> 
> Maybe your "ignore filter" is a little too high and mine is a little too
> low.
> 
> cgf

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Re: WTF?!

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 05:40:25PM +0200, Pavel Tsekov wrote:
>Cristopher, why dont just you stop reading those posts which actually 
>dont tend to be good enough for you ?

Because I am mean.

>I think if point 1 applies to you then you are not being paid to read
>the mailing lists too - are you ?

No.  I'm not.  Would you like me to ignore all of the email I get
relating to keeping this mailing list running, too?  I could just turn
the mailing list off.  That would be a lot easier.

>So "silly" mails are easily to be recognized - you can just pass them
>by.

If the "silly" emails are so easily recognized then why were you
contributing to the discussion?

Why were you discussing making modifications to libiberty which had
already been done in CVS?

Why were you discussing solutions at all when I already suggested that
people either use the CVS version or remove the offending file from the
makefile?

Maybe your "ignore filter" is a little too high and mine is a little too
low.

cgf

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WTF?!

[Pavel Tsekov]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 01:37:27AM -0400, Christopher Currie wrote:
> >Sorry for the cross-posting, but this regards a bug in libiberty and I
> >don't know whether gcc or binutils has ownership of it.
> 
> If you are going to take it upon yourself to take a cygwin problem into
> other mailing lists, you really should check out the CVS sources to see
> if this has actually been solved or not.
> 
> >On Tue, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:47:01AM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >> It is just C source code we're talking about, right?  You have an editor?
> >> Look at the place where the errors are coming from and make an
> >> educated guess about fixing it.
> >>
> >> What is the worse that can happen?  If you screw up do you think that
> >> this will cause gcc to subtly miscompile your code so that all of the
> >> add instructions are turned into sub instructions or something?  That's
> >> not going to happen.
> >>
> >> You are all programmers right?  Inspect the code.  Invest five minutes
> >> worth of analysis into the problem.
> >>
> >> If this is too tough for you, try removing the offending file from the
> >> makefile or building from CVS sources.
> >>
> >> I can't believe that there are three messages on this subject from people
> >> who are apparently programmers without one suggested fix.
> >
> ><rant>
> >Probably because most of them are busy trying use the tools to do the
> >work they get paid to do, rather than spend the time fixing the tools.
> >Since backing out to the previous version allows them to do that, they've
> >done what's expected of them and logged a bug report that (IMHO) helps
> >a maintainer (who, I would think, either has volunteered or is paid to
> >do such things) track down what might be causing the problem.
> ></rant>
> 
> Some points:
> 
> 1) No one is paid to support this code.
> 
> 2) No one has volunteered to support other people's efforts to compile the
>    code.
> 
> 3) No one was asking for a definitive fix.  I was basically commenting on
>    how strange it was that people who are supposed to be programmers were
>    stalled for days over a problem that could have been solved by an #ifdef.
>    The problem has been fixed definitively in sources.redhat.com CVS sources
>    for weeks.  However, that fix won't magically propagate to older source
>    tar balls.  So, a brain-dead simple fix to strerror.c is required.
> 
>    Either that or you can use the solution THAT I ALREADY SUGGESTED.
> 
> 4) If someone is building the code on their own rather than using the binaries
>    that *I did* volunteer to provide then it is either part of their job or
>    they have some other reason for doing it.  It's not part of my job in
>    any way to track down their problems for them.  I could build the programs
>    just fine when I released them.  If that changes over time, I'm not going
>    to make a new release just to satisfy people who want to build things on
>    their own.  If someone needs to do that then they really should know what
>    they are doing.  Either that or they should pay someone to support them.
>    Or, they could try to use the *latest* versions of the sources where any
>    problems would be solved.
> 
> 5) Even if we were to buy into your theory that I have either volunteered
>    to help you build the tools or your even more inane theory that I am
>    actually being *paid* to help people for free; merely reporting a problem
>    with no more analysis than a cut and paste of an error message is hardly
>    a way to help me out.  Even if it was a vague help, the majority of this
>    thread was comprised of "I am stalled too! I need a fix!" messages which
>    conveyed no useful information.
> 
> I haven't looked at your patch.  You seem competent so I assume that it
> solves your problem.
> 
> I also assume that a patch won't help most of the original posters who
> were complaining in the cygwin mailing list since it will require them
> to learn about both patch and autoconf.  However, maybe there are some
> other previously silent but competent people like you who were also
> silently fuming over the injustice of not being able to compile their
> own version of the tools and maybe they will be able to use the solution
> that you provided.
> 
> Or, you could always just remove strerror from the Makefile like I
> originally suggested...
> 
> cgf
> 

Cristopher, why dont just you stop reading those posts which actually 
dont tend to be good enough for you ? I think if point 1 applies to
you then you are not being paid to read the mailing lists too - are you
?
So "silly" mails are easily to be recognized - you can just pass them
by.

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Re: WTF?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 08:54:14AM -0500, Earnie Boyd wrote:
>Robert Collins wrote:
>> 
>> Please keep responses to the list. I'm happy to be cc'd on them (which
>> is why I don't munge my reply-to:).
>> 
>> Use setup.exe.
>> 
>
>And this is one of the reasons why I do.  Although, it doesn't stop all
>of this reason.

Yeah, some people do you the favor of replying personally regardless of
what you do with your Reply-To.

cgf

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Re: WTF?

[Earnie Boyd]

Robert Collins wrote:
> 
> Please keep responses to the list. I'm happy to be cc'd on them (which
> is why I don't munge my reply-to:).
> 
> Use setup.exe.
> 

And this is one of the reasons why I do.  Although, it doesn't stop all
of this reason.

Earnie.

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Re: WTF?

[Robert Collins]

Please keep responses to the list. I'm happy to be cc'd on them (which
is why I don't munge my reply-to:).

Use setup.exe.

Rob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frans Rossouw" <fer@ucs.co.za>
To: "Robert Collins" <robert.collins@itdomain.com.au>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 7:42 PM
Subject: RE: WTF?


> D'OH!
>
> I knew I forgot something!
> heheh
>
> Do you know how I can go back to the previous version of gcc?
>
> Thanx man
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Collins [ mailto:robert.collins@itdomain.com.au ]
> > Sent: 16 March 2001 10:35
> > To: Frans Rossouw; Cygwin
> > Subject: Re: WTF?
> >
> >
> > You're running an experimental version of gcc.
> >
> > use
> > gcc -mwin32 -o win32-error win32-error.c
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Frans Rossouw" <fer@ucs.co.za>
> > To: "Cygwin" <cygwin@cygwin.com>
> > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 7:34 PM
> > Subject: WTF?
> >
> >
> > > Hey all
> > >
> > > has anyone seen something like this before?
> > >
> > > $ gcc -o win32-error win32-error.c
> > > win32-error.c:8: windows.h: No such file or directory
> > >
> > > I would be worried about this if the include statement was
> > > #include "windows.h"
> > > but it's
> > > #include <windows.h>
> > >
> > > HUH?
> > >
> > > Frans Rossouw
> > > (+2711) 712-1404
> > > Icq# 103978846
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Want to unsubscribe from this list?
> > > Check out: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
> > >
> > >
> >
>


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Re: WTF?

[Robert Collins]

You're running an experimental version of gcc.

use 
gcc -mwin32 -o win32-error win32-error.c

Rob

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frans Rossouw" <fer@ucs.co.za>
To: "Cygwin" <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 7:34 PM
Subject: WTF?


> Hey all
> 
> has anyone seen something like this before?
> 
> $ gcc -o win32-error win32-error.c
> win32-error.c:8: windows.h: No such file or directory
> 
> I would be worried about this if the include statement was
> #include "windows.h"
> but it's
> #include <windows.h>
> 
> HUH?
> 
> Frans Rossouw
> (+2711) 712-1404
> Icq# 103978846
> 
> 
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> Want to unsubscribe from this list?
> Check out: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
> 
> 


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WTF?

[Frans Rossouw]

Hey all

has anyone seen something like this before?

$ gcc -o win32-error win32-error.c
win32-error.c:8: windows.h: No such file or directory

I would be worried about this if the include statement was
#include "windows.h"
but it's
#include <windows.h>

HUH?

Frans Rossouw
(+2711) 712-1404
Icq# 103978846


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WTF?!

[Andrew Dolphin]

Who the hell put me on this list?  I never sent anything to anyone at 
this address asking to be put on it!

  Andy Dolphin
  andy@dolphin.astro.washington.edu
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