RE: Setup as recommended reading

RE: Setup as recommended reading

[Robert Collins]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicholas Wourms [mailto:nwourms@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 5:12 AM
> To: Robert Collins; cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: RE: Setup as recommended reading
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Before you do bow out, I think people need to realize, as it 
> was stated before, that you are not trying to reinvent the 
> wheel.  Yes, RPM is great for many things, but the goal of 
> setup isn't to be rpm.  In fact, IIRC it was stated that once 
> someone had volunteered to support rpm for Cygwin and it was 
> proved stable, there might be some discussion as to making 
> setup.exe based on the rpm api.  There has been some 
> discussion lately regarding this port and I believe someone 
> has even volunteered to do it. 

Yes. In fact both rpm and have been -partially- ported to cygwin. AFAIK
neither has been converted to deal with in-use-file-replacements, which
is a required capability to be a cygwin-linked installer (for somewhat
obvious reasons).

> Be that as it may, it will still be much time before this is 
> implimented, IF it is implemented.  So let Rob actually 
> perfect what he has before asking for heaps of new features.  
> IMHO, setup seems to be working nicely for the most part, 
> minus a few bugs here and there.  I honestly think there are 
> more critical issues to focus on then the "fluff" of UI, such 
> as getting a fast, stable SysV IPC system integrated into 
> cygwin and releasing an updated binutils with better dynamic 
> library capabilities. 
> Feel free to disagree....

The installer is fairly complete. Howeever I really want to make it easy
for maintainers, so allowing the use of the debian build tools, or the
rpm build tools is a high priority. Otherwise the maintainers here will,
by necessity, end up inventing the wheel.
Rob

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Re: Setup as recommended reading

[Jim.George]

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:

> At 11:55 AM 5/25/2002, Jim.George wrote:
<snip>
> > >
> >Another cool option might be to have setup automatically display _all_
> >packages that are either new or updated?
>
>
> Yes, that has been suggested before.  Interested in supplying a patch to
> do this?
>
This is where I always come unstuck ;) Lack of skills/time I'm afraid.

I'd rather try to improve on something less core to Cygwin.

Jim



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RE: Setup as recommended reading

[Nicholas Wourms]

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Hi,

Before you do bow out, I think people need to realize, as it was stated
before, that you are not trying to reinvent the wheel.  Yes, RPM is great
for many things, but the goal of setup isn't to be rpm.  In fact, IIRC it
was stated that once someone had volunteered to support rpm for Cygwin and
it was proved stable, there might be some discussion as to making
setup.exe based on the rpm api.  There has been some discussion lately
regarding this port and I believe someone has even volunteered to do it. 
Be that as it may, it will still be much time before this is implimented,
IF it is implemented.  So let Rob actually perfect what he has before
asking for heaps of new features.  IMHO, setup seems to be working nicely
for the most part, minus a few bugs here and there.  I honestly think
there are more critical issues to focus on then the "fluff" of UI, such as
getting a fast, stable SysV IPC system integrated into cygwin and
releasing an updated binutils with better dynamic library capabilities. 
Feel free to disagree....

Cheers,
Nicholas

--- Robert Collins <robert.collins@itdomain.com.au> wrote:
> That's fine. It still needs the list of all available pacakges which I
> documented setup as needing a long time ago, and referenced in both of
> my emails on this thread. Patches would be appreciated, but other than
> that I think we all agree it would be nice. 
> 
> I'm bowing out of this thread at this point.
> 
> Rob
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: René Møller Fonseca [mailto:fonseca@mip.sdu.dk] 
> > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 10:21 PM
> > To: cygwin@cygwin.com
> > Subject: Re: Setup as recommended reading
> > 
> > 
> > The RPM package application Gnome RPM (gnorpm) has a filter selection 
> > box in the install dialog with the following possibilities:
> > 
> > All packages
> > All but installed packages
> > Only uninstalled packages
> > Only newer packages
> > Uninstalled or newer packages
> > 
> > Very convenient, I think.
> > 
> > René
> > 
> > Brian Gallew wrote:
> > > Robert Collins said:
> > > 
> > >>There is an implicit conflict there with setup, because 
> > setup doesn't 
> > >>know what was available before - it only knows version for what is 
> > >>installed. That will change in the future.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > How about this:  Allow packages to be marked "never install"?  Then 
> > > setup can display all of the udpated or new packages, yet give the 
> > > user an easy way to control what (s)he has to look at?
> > > 
> > > 
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > B.Sc. in Computer Systems Engineering
> > The Maersk Mc-Kinney Moller Institute for Production 
> > Technology University of Southern Denmark 
> > http://www.mip.sdu.dk/~fonseca
> > 
> > 
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RE: Setup as recommended reading

[Robert Collins]

That's fine. It still needs the list of all available pacakges which I documented setup as needing a long time ago, and referenced in both of my emails on this thread. Patches would be appreciated, but other than that I think we all agree it would be nice. 

I'm bowing out of this thread at this point.

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: René Møller Fonseca [mailto:fonseca@mip.sdu.dk] 
> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 10:21 PM
> To: cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: Re: Setup as recommended reading
> 
> 
> The RPM package application Gnome RPM (gnorpm) has a filter selection 
> box in the install dialog with the following possibilities:
> 
> All packages
> All but installed packages
> Only uninstalled packages
> Only newer packages
> Uninstalled or newer packages
> 
> Very convenient, I think.
> 
> René
> 
> Brian Gallew wrote:
> > Robert Collins said:
> > 
> >>There is an implicit conflict there with setup, because 
> setup doesn't 
> >>know what was available before - it only knows version for what is 
> >>installed. That will change in the future.
> > 
> > 
> > How about this:  Allow packages to be marked "never install"?  Then 
> > setup can display all of the udpated or new packages, yet give the 
> > user an easy way to control what (s)he has to look at?
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Unsubscribe info:      http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
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> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> B.Sc. in Computer Systems Engineering
> The Maersk Mc-Kinney Moller Institute for Production 
> Technology University of Southern Denmark 
> http://www.mip.sdu.dk/~fonseca
> 
> 
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Re: Setup as recommended reading

[René Møller Fonseca]

The RPM package application Gnome RPM (gnorpm) has a filter selection 
box in the install dialog with the following possibilities:

All packages
All but installed packages
Only uninstalled packages
Only newer packages
Uninstalled or newer packages

Very convenient, I think.

René

Brian Gallew wrote:
> Robert Collins said:
> 
>>There is an implicit conflict there with setup, because setup
>>doesn't know what was available before - it only knows version for
>>what is installed. That will change in the future.
> 
> 
> How about this:  Allow packages to be marked "never install"?  Then
> setup can display all of the udpated or new packages, yet give the
> user an easy way to control what (s)he has to look at?
> 
> 
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> 



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The Maersk Mc-Kinney Moller Institute for Production Technology
University of Southern Denmark
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RE: Setup as recommended reading

[Robert Collins]

That's a workaround that requires ~ the same effort as storing all the
package data. 

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Gallew [mailto:geek@burri.to] 
> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 10:02 PM
> To: Robert Collins
> Cc: jim.george@blueyonder.co.uk; cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: RE: Setup as recommended reading
> 
> 
> Robert Collins said:
> > There is an implicit conflict there with setup, because 
> setup doesn't 
> > know what was available before - it only knows version for what is 
> > installed. That will change in the future.
> 
> How about this:  Allow packages to be marked "never install"? 
>  Then setup can display all of the udpated or new packages, 
> yet give the user an easy way to control what (s)he has to look at?
> 
> 

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RE: Setup as recommended reading

[Brian Gallew]

Robert Collins said:
> There is an implicit conflict there with setup, because setup
> doesn't know what was available before - it only knows version for
> what is installed. That will change in the future.

How about this:  Allow packages to be marked "never install"?  Then
setup can display all of the udpated or new packages, yet give the
user an easy way to control what (s)he has to look at?


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RE: Setup as recommended reading

[Dockeen]

There is a motivation in my recommendation that
goes beyond what's new.

A few months ago, in a discussion with a new user,
he pointed out that as his needs and requirements
evolved, and he needed something he wasn't using
previously in Cygwin, he was suprised at how often,
he found, like the commercial says "its in there".

and...

How often are there posts from users who "thought
they installed everything", only to have to be told
to go back and open category x and install what they
wanted.

I'm probably weird, but I don't see a problem with
respect to how setup works in this respect. 

Wayne Keen

p.s. I am still also pushing the notion of the archives
as an at least daily read.  If I keep learning at this
rate, in a few decades, I might even be able to contribute!

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RE: Setup as recommended reading

[Robert Collins]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim.George [mailto:jim.george@blueyonder.co.uk] 
> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 1:55 AM


> Another cool option might be to have setup automatically 
> display _all_ packages that are either new or updated?

There is an implicit conflict there with setup, because setup doesn't
know what was available before - it only knows version for what is
installed. That will change in the future.

Rob

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RE: Setup as recommended reading

[Robert Collins]

Setup will automatically select for update all packages that are:
((in 'base' or 'misc') OR installed) AND (have a newer version available
in the same trust level as the choose is set to).

As for listing new packages vs seelcting them for update, setup doesn't
have that capability. It's a perfect job for a setup-code-base sharing
cygwin tool though.

Rob 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Faylor [mailto:cgf@redhat.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 4:23 AM
> To: cygwin@cygwin.com
> Subject: Re: Setup as recommended reading
> 
> 
> On Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:18:20PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK 
> Partners, Inc) wrote:
> >At 11:55 AM 5/25/2002, Jim.George wrote:
> >>Another cool option might be to have setup automatically 
> display _all_ 
> >>packages that are either new or updated?
> >
> >Yes, that has been suggested before.  Interested in 
> supplying a patch 
> >to
> >do this?
> 
> Yes, it was suggested by me, repeatedly.  It's a really 
> obvious suggestion and I thought Robert had indicated that it 
> was supposed to work that way.
> 
> cgf
> 
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Re: Setup as recommended reading

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:18:20PM -0400, Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc) wrote:
>At 11:55 AM 5/25/2002, Jim.George wrote:
>>Another cool option might be to have setup automatically display _all_
>>packages that are either new or updated?
>
>Yes, that has been suggested before.  Interested in supplying a patch to 
>do this?

Yes, it was suggested by me, repeatedly.  It's a really obvious suggestion
and I thought Robert had indicated that it was supposed to work that way.

cgf

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Re: Setup as recommended reading

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 11:55 AM 5/25/2002, Jim.George wrote:
>On Wed, 22 May 2002, Keen Wayne A Contr AFRL/MNGG wrote:
>
> > In wake of several questions about whether something is in Cygwin, I would
> > like
> > to throw a simple suggestion out for the community.
> >
> > When you run setup, and you get to the screen that allows you to select what
> >
> > you want to install, take a minute to click open the categories and see
> > whats
> > in them.  It helps keep me current on whats in Cygwin, and, on occasion, I
> > find
> > something new that is marked skip that I want to have.
> >
> > I think its a cool as heck tour of Cygwin thats free and only takes a moment
> > of your time.  That and reading the archives a couple of times a day have
> > made me what I am today....ooops....well, they make me an interesting
> > person,
> > oops...
> >
> > Wayne Keen
> >
>Another cool option might be to have setup automatically display _all_
>packages that are either new or updated?


Yes, that has been suggested before.  Interested in supplying a patch to 
do this?





Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Re: Setup as recommended reading

[Jim.George]

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Keen Wayne A Contr AFRL/MNGG wrote:

> In wake of several questions about whether something is in Cygwin, I would
> like
> to throw a simple suggestion out for the community.
>
> When you run setup, and you get to the screen that allows you to select what
>
> you want to install, take a minute to click open the categories and see
> whats
> in them.  It helps keep me current on whats in Cygwin, and, on occasion, I
> find
> something new that is marked skip that I want to have.
>
> I think its a cool as heck tour of Cygwin thats free and only takes a moment
> of your time.  That and reading the archives a couple of times a day have
> made me what I am today....ooops....well, they make me an interesting
> person,
> oops...
>
> Wayne Keen
>
Another cool option might be to have setup automatically display _all_
packages that are either new or updated?

Jim


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Re: Setup as recommended reading

[Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)]

At 10:08 AM 5/22/2002, Keen Wayne A Contr AFRL/MNGG wrote:
>In wake of several questions about whether something is in Cygwin, I would
>like
>to throw a simple suggestion out for the community.
>
>When you run setup, and you get to the screen that allows you to select what
>
>you want to install, take a minute to click open the categories and see
>whats
>in them.  It helps keep me current on whats in Cygwin, and, on occasion, I
>find
>something new that is marked skip that I want to have.


A reasonable suggestion.  The list of packages that setup will install is 
always available at http://cygwin.com/packages/ as well.  This is a 
searchable list that allows you to look for the package that contains your
favorite utility, in case you don't know what package that utility would 
be in.  Both of these methods are the best tools for determining what's
available from www.cygwin.com.



Larry Hall                              lhall@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.                      http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street                   (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746                     (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Setup as recommended reading

[Keen Wayne A Contr AFRL/MNGG]

In wake of several questions about whether something is in Cygwin, I would
like
to throw a simple suggestion out for the community.

When you run setup, and you get to the screen that allows you to select what

you want to install, take a minute to click open the categories and see
whats
in them.  It helps keep me current on whats in Cygwin, and, on occasion, I
find
something new that is marked skip that I want to have.

I think its a cool as heck tour of Cygwin thats free and only takes a moment
of your time.  That and reading the archives a couple of times a day have
made me what I am today....ooops....well, they make me an interesting
person,
oops...

Wayne Keen

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