* Re: [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? @ 2002-12-03 18:46 Dockeen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Dockeen @ 2002-12-03 18:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cygwin I wonder if folks who ask this question fully realize the meaning of "Minimal" im MingW. The binary for MingW is about 12 megabytes at last glance. Cygwin, the full package runs many 100's of Megabytes. So a single archive is plainly untenable. The nature of Cygwin is flexible, so the setup allows you to load just what *you* need. So, there is logic and reason in the way Cygwin does things. There is logic and reason in the way MingW does things. There is even logic and reason in the fact that those methods are very different. Wayne -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* RE: [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? @ 2002-12-05 6:57 Richard Campbell 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Richard Campbell @ 2002-12-05 6:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cygwin >>> Impractical. As I said, almost 100% of people won't want 100% of >>> packages. > >This doesn't require one big archive. There is nothing stopping anyone with >a slow but flat rate connection from running setup, choosing everything, and >letting it get on with it. No argument. I was just addressing the "100% of people not wanting 100% of packages" side. -Richard Campbell. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* RE: [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? @ 2002-12-05 6:46 Richard Campbell 2002-12-05 6:57 ` Max Bowsher ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Richard Campbell @ 2002-12-05 6:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'cygwin@cygwin.com' >Impractical. As I said, almost 100% of people won't want 100% of packages. It might be interesting to poll in some way, considering how often this comes up. I suspect more than "almost 0%" might want a 1-button, overnight-style install. >Frankly, this odd method only makes the slightest sense in your unusual >situation (downloads constricted by number of files not file size). I have every package selected, and as new packages appear I install them. >tetex ? (Document processing system) >lilypond ? (Sheet music production) > >Both multi-megabyte packages for very specialized requirements. Got them both. Haven't used either yet, but if I want to they are installed and up to date. -Richard Campbell. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? 2002-12-05 6:46 Richard Campbell @ 2002-12-05 6:57 ` Max Bowsher 2002-12-05 8:18 ` Brian Gallew 2002-12-05 14:20 ` [Mingw-users] Cygwin " Robert Collins 2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Max Bowsher @ 2002-12-05 6:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Campbell, cygwin Richard Campbell <richard.campbell@air2web.com> wrote: >> Impractical. As I said, almost 100% of people won't want 100% of >> packages. > > It might be interesting to poll in some way, considering how often > this comes up. I suspect more than "almost 0%" might want a 1-button, > overnight-style install. This doesn't require one big archive. There is nothing stopping anyone with a slow but flat rate connection from running setup, choosing everything, and letting it get on with it. >> Frankly, this odd method only makes the slightest sense in your >> unusual situation (downloads constricted by number of files not file >> size). > > I have every package selected, and as new packages appear I install > them. > >> tetex ? (Document processing system) >> lilypond ? (Sheet music production) >> >> Both multi-megabyte packages for very specialized requirements. > > Got them both. Haven't used either yet, but if I want to they are > installed and up to date. I have everything downloaded and kept up to date (but not installed). But at no point would one big archive have been useful to me. Max. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* RE: [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? 2002-12-05 6:46 Richard Campbell 2002-12-05 6:57 ` Max Bowsher @ 2002-12-05 8:18 ` Brian Gallew 2002-12-05 9:20 ` news [not found] ` <200212051653.gB5GrrP09822@mx1.redhat.com> 2002-12-05 14:20 ` [Mingw-users] Cygwin " Robert Collins 2 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Brian Gallew @ 2002-12-05 8:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cygwin Richard Campbell said: > It might be interesting to poll in some way, considering how often > this comes up. I suspect more than "almost 0%" might want a > 1-button, overnight-style install. This is the way I work. I have everything installed except emacs (I built/installed Xemacs long before FSF-emacs was available). Every morning before I start my work day I re-run setup to be sure I have the most current release of everything. Periodically I'll check with setup to see if I'm missing any other packages. Disk is cheap. Network bandwidth is cheap. Not being able to do something because I failed to download a tool is annoying. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* RE: [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? 2002-12-05 8:18 ` Brian Gallew @ 2002-12-05 9:20 ` news [not found] ` <200212051653.gB5GrrP09822@mx1.redhat.com> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: news @ 2002-12-05 9:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cygwin On 05 Dec 2002, "Brian Gallew" <geek@burri.to> wrote: > Disk is cheap. Network bandwidth is cheap. If its all so cheap then download everything and provide the service that you want for everyone else that wants it. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
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* Re: [Mingw-users] cygwin Full download in one big archive ? [not found] ` <200212051653.gB5GrrP09822@mx1.redhat.com> @ 2002-12-05 14:18 ` Christopher Faylor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Christopher Faylor @ 2002-12-05 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: cygwin On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 06:17:48PM +0100, news@garydjones.mailshell.com wrote: >On 05 Dec 2002, "Brian Gallew" <geek@burri.to> wrote: >>Disk is cheap. Network bandwidth is cheap. > >If its all so cheap then download everything and provide the service >that you want for everyone else that wants it. I don't recall him saying anything like "My time is cheap". cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* RE: [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? 2002-12-05 6:46 Richard Campbell 2002-12-05 6:57 ` Max Bowsher 2002-12-05 8:18 ` Brian Gallew @ 2002-12-05 14:20 ` Robert Collins 2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Robert Collins @ 2002-12-05 14:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Campbell; +Cc: 'cygwin@cygwin.com' [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1349 bytes --] On Fri, 2002-12-06 at 01:39, Richard Campbell wrote: > >Impractical. As I said, almost 100% of people won't want 100% of packages. > > It might be interesting to poll in some way, considering how often this > comes up. I suspect more than "almost 0%" might want a 1-button, > overnight-style install. I agree with you with regards to what folk may want. The modular install is about choice and efficiency. There is *no* reason that a 1-button overnight-style install cannot be achieved using setup.exe. Patches accepted gratefully. With regards to having a monolithic download however... Some back-of-a-postcard sums: monolithic install 577MB install. 1 update to a package a week, 1 new 577MB install file created each week. longest period without updating - 2 months. this would mean an average of ~280MB per month downloading updates. modular install 577MB total download size 1 update to a package a week, 1 new modular install (avg ~5MB) created each week. longest period without updated - 2 months. this would mean an average of ~20MB per month downloading updates. Seems pretty clear to me, that for anyone on a slow link, or anyone charged by volume, that the modular install is much more efficient. Rob -- --- GPG key available at: http://users.bigpond.net.au/robertc/keys.txt. --- [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
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* Re: [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? [not found] <20021203225751.DFCA.GNIPI@windows-sucks.com> @ 2002-12-03 14:06 ` Max Bowsher [not found] ` <20021204124607.DFC8.GNIPI@windows-sucks.com> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Max Bowsher @ 2002-12-03 14:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Igor Gnip, cygwin Igor Gnip <gnipi@windows-sucks.com> wrote to <mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net>: > I know it does not directly concern mingw-users ... but I need to > make some comparisions between mingw32 and cygwin ... and it is very > very painfull to download cygwin using their stupit web install > program. > > Q: Does anyone know where can I download the entire package (either > source or binary or both) in one or "few" archives? There is no such "one-big-archive". And, as a contributor to Cygwin setup, I'd appreciate it if you would at least explain why you find it stupid. Max. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
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* Re: [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? [not found] ` <20021204124607.DFC8.GNIPI@windows-sucks.com> @ 2002-12-04 9:49 ` Max Bowsher [not found] ` <20021204233455.0A3D.GNIPI@windows-sucks.com> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Max Bowsher @ 2002-12-04 9:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Igor Gnip; +Cc: cygwin Igor Gnip <gnipi@windows-sucks.com> wrote... and I am replying cc: <cygwin@cygwin.com> MB>> And, as a contributor to Cygwin setup, I'd appreciate it if you MB>> would at least explain why you find it stupid. > > Well ... there are places on our pitifull planet where 10 mb of > download via dial-up internet costs more than 50 fried chickens :((( > in other words, much too expensive to run one single websetup.exe > and wait for it to complete. I know - at least in part. On Sunday, I leave university for the holiday, to return to 24K dialup - Nooooooooooo! ;-/ > If websetup.exe supports resume, then at least one of the problems is > eliminated. - I ofthen have to reconnect to the ISP. IIRC, setup doesn't support resuming download of a package, but does download each package seperately. Obviously this could cause some grief when it comes to downloading packages such as gcc (11MB) > If websetup.exe supports download of multiple files at once, trough > proxy then it would make it almost 3kb/second ... on my very very > BAD ISP ... Proxy, yes. Multiple files at once, no. > As you can see, A simple download of one big file would be much > cheaper, less painfull and definitely faster solution. You think? 1) You are highly unlikely to want to download every Cygwin package. 2) What would you do to update one package in a hypothetical "one-big-file" arrangement? Download everything again? > At least - please accept my apologies for the word "stupid" ... > > I guess the correct word would be "ineficient". For some purposes, yes, I agree. > I don't think it is stupid. For people with good 56K connections, a > ISDN or ADSL, it is a paradise to use web installers. But for us > dial-up users ... well guess we are not that important. I have been a dialup user for most of my life - and will be again for the next month-and-a-bit. > and what if some files change during my download (I need a few days > to download it all) ? Will I need to start from the beginning ? Files are named <package>-<version>-<release>.tar.bz2. Once a particular file arrives on the mirrors, its contents should *never* change. (It will, of course be deleted some time after it becomed out of date). > How big is it exactly ? That entirely depends on how much of it you want. The total set of all current package versions and the corresponding source packages comes to a modem busting 577MB. The 'Base' category (the minimum officially sanctioned install) comes to 6MB, with no single package in that selection being more than 1.1M (cygwin itself). By trimming out packages whose presence in Base is questionable, I get this down to 4.6MB. Still not that nice for a modem, though. Max. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
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* Re: [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? [not found] ` <20021204233455.0A3D.GNIPI@windows-sucks.com> @ 2002-12-04 16:34 ` Max Bowsher 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Max Bowsher @ 2002-12-04 16:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Igor Gnip, cygwin Igor Gnip <gnipi@windows-sucks.com> wrote: >> Igor Gnip <gnipi@windows-sucks.com> wrote... and I am replying cc: >> <cygwin@cygwin.com> >> 1) You are highly unlikely to want to download every Cygwin package. >> 2) What would you do to update one package in a hypothetical >> "one-big-file" arrangement? Download everything again? > > Well, first time EVER, you download one big file - up to 700 mb that > is ... > > then, use (in this case smart and usefull) web-update to download > updated (and needed) packages ... > > in that scenario, this "big file" would contain web-setup.exe with > added support for local instalation(from the hdd) ... and with > configurable (stored in registry or ini file) updates directory > where web-setup.exe would download new versions of packages as needed. > > >> Files are named <package>-<version>-<release>.tar.bz2. Once a >> particular file arrives on the mirrors, its contents should *never* >> change. (It will, of course be deleted some time after it becomed >> out of date). > > I have no problem with keeping-up-to-date once I get all packages on > my 80-gig HDD. The problem is first download only. It is only > logical to use web-update ... not web-download-everything ... > > so perhaps ... if there is space on red-hat server's hdd ... > there could occasionaly appear cygwin-full-vx.xx.x.tar.bz2 ? > containing all those pkgs ? > > - I know it is not up to you to decide this but is it possible ? Impractical. As I said, almost 100% of people won't want 100% of packages. Frankly, this odd method only makes the slightest sense in your unusual situation (downloads constricted by number of files not file size). >> That entirely depends on how much of it you want. The total set of >> all current package versions and the corresponding source packages >> comes to a modem busting 577MB. > > I _would_ like everything since I can't use linux atm. Too many > components of my PC without drivers for linux ... scanner, > satelite-card, USR PCI modem... tetex ? (Document processing system) lilypond ? (Sheet music production) Both multi-megabyte packages for very specialized requirements. >> The 'Base' category (the minimum officially sanctioned install) >> comes to 6MB, with no single package in that selection being more >> than 1.1M (cygwin itself). > >> By trimming out packages whose presence in Base is questionable, I >> get this down to 4.6MB. Still not that nice for a modem, though. > > That is not so much. Maybe I will ask some of my friends with better > phone-lines (in the central city area) to download... and pay > their bills :) Be aware that this is a severely minimal system, which will require adding to if you want to do anything significant with it. Max. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-12-05 22:20 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2002-12-03 18:46 [Mingw-users] Cygwin Full download in one big archive ? Dockeen -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2002-12-05 6:57 Richard Campbell 2002-12-05 6:46 Richard Campbell 2002-12-05 6:57 ` Max Bowsher 2002-12-05 8:18 ` Brian Gallew 2002-12-05 9:20 ` news [not found] ` <200212051653.gB5GrrP09822@mx1.redhat.com> 2002-12-05 14:18 ` [Mingw-users] cygwin " Christopher Faylor 2002-12-05 14:20 ` [Mingw-users] Cygwin " Robert Collins [not found] <20021203225751.DFCA.GNIPI@windows-sucks.com> 2002-12-03 14:06 ` Max Bowsher [not found] ` <20021204124607.DFC8.GNIPI@windows-sucks.com> 2002-12-04 9:49 ` Max Bowsher [not found] ` <20021204233455.0A3D.GNIPI@windows-sucks.com> 2002-12-04 16:34 ` Max Bowsher
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