Re: ls Question

Re: ls Question

[Demmer, Thomas]

Do an
ls --show-control-chars

from ls --help:

     --show-control-chars   show non graphic characters as-is (default
                             unless program is `ls' and output is a
terminal)

I have 
alias ls=/bin/ls.exe --show-control-chars

in my /etc/profile.

Ciao
Tom


Thomas Demmer
Kraft Foods R&D Munich
Phone: +49 89 62738-6302
Fax:      +49 89 62738-86302

Thought of the Day:
A real friend isn't someone you use once and then throw away.
A real friend is someone you can use over and over again.



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RE: ls Question + bug?

[Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail)]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1609 bytes --]

> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
> Of Demmer, Thomas

> I have
> alias ls=/bin/ls.exe --show-control-chars
>
> in my /etc/profile.
>

According to Bash info-pages: Seems to me that it is better to define a
shell function...

It should be something like:

$ ls () { /bin/ls  --show-control-chars $@; }
$ ls
<some files>
$ echo >åäöÅÄÖ
$ ls
<some files> åäöÅÄÖ


NOTE: Do NOT change "/bin/ls" into just "ls", I believe this creates a
hazardous back/loop reference which will eventually hang the computer.
 A test for loop this is obviously done in the builtin "alias" but not
here(?)

Question to more knowledgable people:
 Can the code for alias be reused/converted for shell functions?


Before realizing the potenial problem I had it hang my machine.

How to do "the hang"... ;-)

Windows 98SE:
Right klick on desktop -> New -> Shortcut ->
Enter this:
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:30720 /c C:\Program\cygwin\cygwin.bat
Click "Next" and then "Finish"
Now start Bash with the new shortcut and enter the following:

1) $ ls () { ls  --show-control-chars $@; }
2) $ ls
<long delay> consuming memory...
CTRL-C seems to work...
3) $ ls
Really soon -> a dead computer. (Powercycling is all that works after that)

NOTE:
 at 2)
	 strace >ls-strace.txt ls
	 works i.e. doesn't hang.
	 My guess: strace doesn't launch the shell function.
	 Attached ls-strace.txt -> $ ls <an empty dir>
 also at 2)
	close Bash and your memory is free'd.

 Cygwin version: Latest almost everything, updated yesterday or so.

/Hannu E K Nevalainen, Mariefred, Sweden

--END OF MESSAGE--

[-- Attachment #2: ls-strace.txt --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 26604 bytes --]

**********************************************
Program name: C:\PROGRAM\CYGWIN\BIN\LS.EXE (800159)
App version:  1001.8, api: 0.34
DLL version:  1003.22, api: 0.78
DLL build:    2003-03-18 09:20
OS version:   Windows 98-4.10
Heap size:    402653184
Date/Time:    2003-03-31 23:41:41
**********************************************
13624   77828 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45804D0: !C:=C:\Program\cygwin\bin
 8058   85886 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45804F0: BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 T4
24632  110518 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580510: CLASSPATH=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\QTJava.zip;
 3676  114194 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580540: CMDLINE=bash --login -i
13628  127822 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580560: COMSPEC=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM
26103  153925 [main] LS 800159 parse_options: tty 1001
10003  163928 [main] LS 800159 parse_options: title 0
13890  177818 [main] LS 800159 parse_options: glob (called func)
16089  193907 [main] LS 800159 parse_options: returning
 2926  196833 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580588: CYGWIN=tty notitle glob
27120  223953 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45805C8: DOS=c:\windows\command
25872  249825 [main] LS 800159 getwinenv: can't set native for HOME= since no environ yet
14096  263921 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu, no-keep-rel, no-add-slash)
 3889  267810 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu)
 4045  271855 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /home/Hannu = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu)
12060  283915 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: posix /home/Hannu
 2879  286794 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: native HOME=C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu
 7106  293900 [main] LS 800159 posify: env var converted to HOME=/home/Hannu
10043  303943 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580610: HOME=/home/Hannu
16870  320813 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580758: HOMEDRIVE=C:
 7483  328296 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45805E8: HOMEPATH=\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu
 6030  334326 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580770: LESSCHARSET=latin1
 9593  343919 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580788: LM_LICENSE_FILE=C:\Program\ModelSim\license.dat
13882  357801 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45807C0: MAKE_MODE=unix
26076  383877 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45807D8: MANPATH=:/usr/ssl/man
 6912  390789 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45807F8: OLDPWD=/home/Hannu
 5994  396783 [main] LS 800159 getwinenv: can't set native for PATH= since no environ yet
  872  397655 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: src .
 1468  399123 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, no-keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  680  399803 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z)
 1077  400880 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /home/Hannu/z = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z)
  917  401797 [main] LS 800159 cwdstuff::get: posix /home/Hannu/z
  740  402537 [main] LS 800159 cwdstuff::get: (/home/Hannu/z) = cwdstuff::get (0x254F7D0, 260, 1, 0), errno 0
  782  403319 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: /home/Hannu/z = normalize_posix_path (.)
  651  403970 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/home/Hannu/z)
  786  404756 [main] LS 800159 set_flags: flags: binary (0x2)
  658  405414 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /home/Hannu/z, dst C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, flags 0xA, rc 0
 1117  406531 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: not a symlink
  498  407029 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: 0 = symlink.check (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, 0x254F490) (0xA)
  280  407309 [main] LS 800159 path_conv::check: root_dir(C:\), this->path(C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z), set_has_acls(0)
  566  407875 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\local\bin, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  407  408282 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\usr\local\bin = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\local\bin)
  274  408556 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /usr/local/bin = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\local\bin)
  321  408877 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  272  409149 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\bin = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin)
  268  409417 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /usr/bin = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin)
  268  409685 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  657  410342 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\bin = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin)
  274  410616 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /usr/bin = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\bin)
  269  410885 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\WINDOWS, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  263  411148 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\WINDOWS = normalize_win32_path (c:\WINDOWS)
  265  411413 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS = conv_to_posix_path (c:\WINDOWS)
  273  411686 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\WINDOWS\COMMAND, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  264  411950 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\WINDOWS\COMMAND = normalize_win32_path (c:\WINDOWS\COMMAND)
  271  412221 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/COMMAND = conv_to_posix_path (c:\WINDOWS\COMMAND)
  267  412488 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  263  412751 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE)
  268  413019 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE)
  269  413288 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PACK, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  267  413555 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PACK = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PACK)
  426  413981 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PACK = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PACK)
  275  414256 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\E4, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  267  414523 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\E4 = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\E4)
  269  414792 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/E4 = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\E4)
  267  415059 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PFE, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  268  415327 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PFE = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PFE)
  269  415596 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PFE = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PFE)
  270  415866 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\RAR, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  263  416129 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\RAR = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\RAR)
  271  416400 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/RAR = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\RAR)
  276  416676 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\MATLABR12\BIN\WIN32, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  277  416953 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\MATLABR12\BIN\WIN32 = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\MATLABR12\BIN\WIN32)
  269  417222 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MATLABR12/BIN/WIN32 = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\MATLABR12\BIN\WIN32)
  294  417516 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC31_DOS\BIN, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  267  417783 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\BC31_DOS\BIN = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC31_DOS\BIN)
  268  418051 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC31_DOS/BIN = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC31_DOS\BIN)
  268  418319 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC5\BIN, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  269  418588 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\BC5\BIN = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC5\BIN)
  316  418904 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC5/BIN = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\BC5\BIN)
  268  419172 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (., keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  260  419432 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: . = conv_to_posix_path (.)
  264  419696 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\MODELSIM\WIN32XOEM, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  267  419963 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\MODELSIM\WIN32XOEM = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\MODELSIM\WIN32XOEM)
  270  420233 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MODELSIM/WIN32XOEM = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\MODELSIM\WIN32XOEM)
  269  420502 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\WIN98RK, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  273  420775 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: c:\PROGRAM\WIN98RK = normalize_win32_path (c:\PROGRAM\WIN98RK)
  645  421420 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/WIN98RK = conv_to_posix_path (c:\PROGRAM\WIN98RK)
  284  421704 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\X11R6\bin, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  266  421970 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\usr\X11R6\bin = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\X11R6\bin)
  273  422243 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /usr/X11R6/bin = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\usr\X11R6\bin)
  271  422514 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\scripts, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  269  422783 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\scripts = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\scripts)
  273  423056 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /home/Hannu/scripts = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\scripts)
  270  423326 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\rexx, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  268  423594 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\rexx = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\rexx)
  430  424024 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /home/Hannu/rexx = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\rexx)
  274  424298 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\bin, keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  265  424563 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\bin = normalize_win32_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\bin)
  271  424834 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /home/Hannu/bin = conv_to_posix_path (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\bin)
  721  425555 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: posix /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/COMMAND:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PACK:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/E4:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PFE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/RAR:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MATLABR12/BIN/WIN32:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC31_DOS/BIN:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC5/BIN:.:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MODELSIM/WIN32XOEM:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/WIN98RK:/usr/X11R6/bin:/home/Hannu/scripts:/home/Hannu/rexx:/home/Hannu/bin
  363  425918 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: native PATH=C:\Program\cygwin\usr\local\bin;C:\Program\cygwin\bin;C:\Program\cygwin\bin;c:\WINDOWS;c:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE;c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PACK;c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\E4;c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\PFE;c:\PROGRAM\DIVERSE\RAR;c:\PROGRAM\MATLABR12\BIN\WIN32;c:\PROGRAM\BC31_DOS\BIN;c:\PROGRAM\BC5\BIN;.;c:\PROGRAM\MODELSIM\WIN32XOEM;c:\PROGRAM\WIN98RK;C:\Program\cygwin\usr\X11R6\bin;C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\scripts;C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\rexx;C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\bin
  312  426230 [main] LS 800159 posify: env var converted to PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/COMMAND:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PACK:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/E4:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PFE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/RAR:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MATLABR12/BIN/WIN32:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC31_DOS/BIN:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC5/BIN:.:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MODELSIM/WIN32XOEM:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/WIN98RK:/usr/X11R6/bin:/home/Hannu/scripts:/home/Hannu/rexx:/home/Hannu/bin
  533  426763 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45809F8: PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/COMMAND:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PACK:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/E4:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/PFE:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/DIVERSE/RAR:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MATLABR12/BIN/WIN32:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC31_DOS/BIN:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/BC5/BIN:.:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/MODELSIM/WIN32XOEM:/cygdrive/c/PROGRAM/WIN98RK:/usr/X11R6/bin:/home/Hannu/scripts:/home/Hannu/rexx:/home/Hannu/bin
  538  427301 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580810: PROMPT=$p$g
  479  427780 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580820: PS1=\[\033]0;\w\007
\033[32m\]\u@\h \[\033[33m\w\033[0m\]
$ 
  481  428261 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580868: PWD=/home/Hannu/z
  473  428734 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580880: QTJAVA=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\QTJava.zip
  528  429262 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45808A8: RS=C:\re-subst.txt
  475  429737 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45808C0: SHELL=
  473  430210 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45808D0: SHLVL=1
  475  430685 [main] LS 800159 getwinenv: can't set native for TEMP= since no environ yet
  476  431161 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (d:\TEMP, no-keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  259  431420 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: d:\TEMP = normalize_win32_path (d:\TEMP)
  400  431820 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/d/TEMP = conv_to_posix_path (d:\TEMP)
 2362  434182 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: posix /cygdrive/d/TEMP
  260  434442 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: native TEMP=d:\TEMP
  251  434693 [main] LS 800159 posify: env var converted to TEMP=/cygdrive/d/TEMP
  466  435159 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4581428: TEMP=/cygdrive/d/TEMP
  473  435632 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580928: TERM=cygwin
  481  436113 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580938: TEXMF={/usr/share/lilypond/1.6.8,/usr/share/texmf}
  484  436597 [main] LS 800159 getwinenv: can't set native for TMP= since no environ yet
  480  437077 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: conv_to_posix_path (d:\TEMP, no-keep-rel, no-add-slash)
  258  437335 [main] LS 800159 normalize_win32_path: d:\TEMP = normalize_win32_path (d:\TEMP)
  265  437600 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_posix_path: /cygdrive/d/TEMP = conv_to_posix_path (d:\TEMP)
  690  438290 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: posix /cygdrive/d/TEMP
  252  438542 [main] LS 800159 win_env::add_cache: native TMP=d:\TEMP
  291  438833 [main] LS 800159 posify: env var converted to TMP=/cygdrive/d/TEMP
  475  439308 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4581538: TMP=/cygdrive/d/TEMP
  518  439826 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580970: USER=Hannu
  479  440305 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4580990: WINBOOTDIR=C:\WINDOWS
  470  440775 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45809B0: WINDIR=C:\WINDOWS
  469  441244 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x45809C8: X=c:\program\diverse
  617  441861 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4581648: Y=c:\program\bc31_dos\bin
  469  442330 [main] LS 800159 environ_init: 0x4581668: _=/usr/bin/strace
  261  442591 [main] LS 800159 pinfo_init: pid 800159, pgid 800159
  265  442856 [main] LS 800159 dtable::extend: size 32, fds 0x615F03C8
  313  443169 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: src /etc/passwd
  261  443430 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: /etc/passwd = normalize_posix_path (/etc/passwd)
  262  443692 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/etc/passwd)
  409  444101 [main] LS 800159 set_flags: flags: binary (0x2)
  257  444358 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /etc/passwd, dst C:\Program\cygwin\etc\passwd, flags 0xA, rc 0
  731  445089 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: not a symlink
  272  445361 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: 0 = symlink.check (C:\Program\cygwin\etc\passwd, 0x254F6D0) (0xA)
  269  445630 [main] LS 800159 path_conv::check: root_dir(C:\), this->path(C:\Program\cygwin\etc\passwd), set_has_acls(0)
  379  446009 [main] LS 800159 etc::test_file_change: FindFirstFile succeeded
  272  446281 [main] LS 800159 etc::test_file_change: fn[1] C:\Program\cygwin\etc\passwd res 1
  255  446536 [main] LS 800159 etc::init: fn[1] C:\Program\cygwin\etc\passwd, curr_ix 1
  274  446810 [main] LS 800159 pwdgrp::load: /etc/passwd
 1029  447839 [main] LS 800159 pwdgrp::load: /etc/passwd curr_lines 1
  257  448096 [main] LS 800159 pwdgrp::load: /etc/passwd load succeeded
  262  448358 [main] LS 800159 cygheap_user::ontherange: what 2, pw 0x45816B0
  265  448623 [main] LS 800159 cygheap_user::ontherange: HOME is already in the environment /home/Hannu
 1409  450032 [main] LS 800159 sigproc_init: process/signal handling enabled(1001)
  625  450657 [sig] LS 800159 wait_sig: sigcatch_nonmain 0xEC, sigcatch_main 0xF0
  403  451060 [sig] LS 800159 wait_sig: Ready.  dwProcessid -800159
 -719  450341 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio: _cygwin_istext_for_stdio (0)
 1365  451706 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio:  _cifs: fd not open
  305  452011 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio: _cygwin_istext_for_stdio (1)
  260  452271 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio:  _cifs: fd not open
  265  452536 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio: _cygwin_istext_for_stdio (2)
  261  452797 [main] LS 800159 _cygwin_istext_for_stdio:  _cifs: fd not open
53927  506724 [main] LS 800159 tty_list::allocate_tty: console 5AC already associated with tty0
  582  507306 [main] LS 800159 build_argv: argv[0] = 'ls'
  253  507559 [main] LS 800159 build_argv: argc 1
  285  507844 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: src /dev/piper
  264  508108 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: /dev/piper = normalize_posix_path (/dev/piper)
  267  508375 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/dev/piper)
  272  508647 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /dev/piper, dst \dev\piper, flags 0x2, rc 0
  397  509044 [main] LS 800159 dtable::build_fhandler: fd 0, fh 0x615F0558
  280  509324 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: flags 0x10002, supplied_bin 0x0
  264  509588 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: O_TEXT/O_BINARY set in flags 0x10000
  264  509852 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: filemode set to binary
  258  510110 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::init: created new fhandler_base for handle 0xDC, bin 1
  267  510377 [main] LS 800159 dtable::init_std_file_from_handle: fd 0, handle 0xDC
 1296  511673 [main] LS 800159 handle_to_fn: NtQueryObject failed
  357  512030 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: src some disk file
  265  512295 [main] LS 800159 cwdstuff::get: posix /home/Hannu/z
  259  512554 [main] LS 800159 cwdstuff::get: (/home/Hannu/z) = cwdstuff::get (0x254F640, 260, 1, 0), errno 0
  268  512822 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: /home/Hannu/z/some disk file = normalize_posix_path (some disk file)
  264  513086 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/home/Hannu/z/some disk file)
  347  513433 [main] LS 800159 set_flags: flags: binary (0x2)
  262  513695 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /home/Hannu/z/some disk file, dst C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z\some disk file, flags 0xA, rc 0
  646  514341 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: GetFileAttributes (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z\some disk file) failed
  284  514625 [main] LS 800159 geterrno_from_win_error: windows error 2 == errno 2
  345  514970 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: GetFileAttributes (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z\some disk file.lnk) failed
  280  515250 [main] LS 800159 geterrno_from_win_error: windows error 2 == errno 2
  259  515509 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: 0 = symlink.check (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z\some disk file, 0x254F300) (0xA)
  316  515825 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/home/Hannu/z)
  280  516105 [main] LS 800159 set_flags: flags: binary (0x2)
  264  516369 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /home/Hannu/z, dst C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, flags 0xA, rc 0
  359  516728 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: not a symlink
  274  517002 [main] LS 800159 symlink_info::check: 0 = symlink.check (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, 0x254F300) (0xA)
  272  517274 [main] LS 800159 path_conv::check: root_dir(C:\), this->path(C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z\some disk file), set_has_acls(0)
  321  517595 [main] LS 800159 dtable::build_fhandler: fd 1, fh 0x615F0678
  274  517869 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: flags 0x10002, supplied_bin 0x0
  262  518131 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: O_TEXT/O_BINARY set in flags 0x10000
  259  518390 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: filemode set to binary
  257  518647 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::init: created new fhandler_base for handle 0x158, bin 1
  267  518914 [main] LS 800159 dtable::init_std_file_from_handle: fd 1, handle 0x158
  277  519191 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: src /dev/pipew
  261  519452 [main] LS 800159 normalize_posix_path: /dev/pipew = normalize_posix_path (/dev/pipew)
  261  519713 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/dev/pipew)
  272  519985 [main] LS 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /dev/pipew, dst \dev\pipew, flags 0x2, rc 0
  287  520272 [main] LS 800159 dtable::build_fhandler: fd 2, fh 0x615F0748
  272  520544 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: flags 0x10002, supplied_bin 0x0
  376  520920 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: O_TEXT/O_BINARY set in flags 0x10000
  267  521187 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::set_flags: filemode set to binary
  260  521447 [main] LS 800159 fhandler_base::init: created new fhandler_base for handle 0x128, bin 1
  277  521724 [main] LS 800159 dtable::init_std_file_from_handle: fd 2, handle 0x128
  325  522049 [main] ls 800159 dll_crt0_1: user_data->main 0x40170C
  262  522311 [main] ls 800159 wait_for_sigthread: wait_sig_inited 0x6C
 1215  523526 [main] ls 800159 isatty: 0 = isatty (1)
  403  523929 [main] ls 800159 ioctl: fd 1, cmd 5401
  635  524564 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_base::ioctl: ioctl (5401, 0x254FCE8)
  267  524831 [main] ls 800159 ioctl: returning -1
 1900  526731 [main] ls 800159 normalize_posix_path: src .
  265  526996 [main] ls 800159 cwdstuff::get: posix /home/Hannu/z
  261  527257 [main] ls 800159 cwdstuff::get: (/home/Hannu/z) = cwdstuff::get (0x254F7B0, 260, 1, 0), errno 0
  269  527526 [main] ls 800159 normalize_posix_path: /home/Hannu/z = normalize_posix_path (.)
  265  527791 [main] ls 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: conv_to_win32_path (/home/Hannu/z)
  270  528061 [main] ls 800159 set_flags: flags: binary (0x2)
  259  528320 [main] ls 800159 mount_info::conv_to_win32_path: src_path /home/Hannu/z, dst C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, flags 0xA, rc 0
  626  528946 [main] ls 800159 symlink_info::check: not a symlink
  284  529230 [main] ls 800159 symlink_info::check: 0 = symlink.check (C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z, 0x254F470) (0xA)
 7869  537099 [main] ls 800159 path_conv::check: root_dir(C:\), this->path(C:\Program\cygwin\home\Hannu\z), set_has_acls(0)
  868  537967 [main] ls 800159 dtable::build_fhandler: fd -1, fh 0x615F0820
 3978  541945 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_disk_file::opendir: 0x4583F28 = opendir (/home/Hannu/z)
  819  542764 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_disk_file::readdir: 0x4583F2C = readdir (0x4583F28) (.)
  782  543546 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_disk_file::readdir: 0x4583F2C = readdir (0x4583F28) (..)
  917  544463 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_disk_file::readdir: 0x0 = readdir (0x4583F28)
  683  545146 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_disk_file::closedir: 0 = closedir (0x4583F28)
 3735  548881 [main] ls 800159 closedir: 0 = closedir (0x4583F28)
  829  549710 [main] ls 800159 do_exit: do_exit (0)
  523  550233 [main] ls 800159 void: 0x0 = signal (20, 0x1)
  268  550501 [main] ls 800159 void: 0x0 = signal (1, 0x1)
  384  550885 [main] ls 800159 void: 0x0 = signal (2, 0x1)
  270  551155 [main] ls 800159 void: 0x0 = signal (3, 0x1)
  263  551418 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_base::close: closing '/dev/piper' handle 0xDC
  286  551704 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_base::close: closing '/home/Hannu/z/some disk file' handle 0x158
  379  552083 [main] ls 800159 fhandler_base::close: closing '/dev/pipew' handle 0x128
  293  552376 [main] ls 800159 sigproc_terminate: entering
  263  552639 [main] ls 800159 proc_terminate: nchildren 0, nzombies 0
  261  552900 [main] ls 800159 proc_terminate: leaving
  270  553170 [main] ls 800159 do_exit: 800159 == sid 800159, send SIGHUP to children
  483  553653 [main] ls 800159 __to_clock_t: dwHighDateTime 0, dwLowDateTime 0
  261  553914 [main] ls 800159 __to_clock_t: total 00000000 00000000
  263  554177 [main] ls 800159 __to_clock_t: dwHighDateTime 0, dwLowDateTime 0
  259  554436 [main] ls 800159 __to_clock_t: total 00000000 00000000
25143  579579 [main] ls 800159 _pinfo::exit: Calling ExitProcess 0


[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 214 bytes --]

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Re: ls Question + bug?

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 00:05 +0100)
>> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
>> Of Demmer, Thomas
>> I have
>> alias ls=/bin/ls.exe --show-control-chars
>>
>> in my /etc/profile.
>>
> According to Bash info-pages: Seems to me that it is better to define a
> shell function...
> 
> It should be something like:
> [...]
> 
> NOTE: Do NOT change "/bin/ls" into just "ls",

"command ls"

> I believe this creates a hazardous back/loop reference which will eventually
> hang the computer.
> [...]
> Before realizing the potenial problem I had it hang my machine.
> 
> How to do "the hang"... ;-)
> 
> Windows 98SE:
> Right klick on desktop -> New -> Shortcut ->
> Enter this:
> C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM /E:30720 /c C:\Program\cygwin\cygwin.bat
> Click "Next" and then "Finish"
> Now start Bash with the new shortcut and enter the following:
> [...]
> <long delay> consuming memory...
> CTRL-C seems to work...
> 3) $ ls
> Really soon -> a dead computer. (Powercycling is all that works after that)

Your computer cannot be more dead than Windows 98 already is. Using an 
Operating System would you give something like "maximum recursion 
limit exceeded".

Thorsten
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RE: ls Question + bug?

[Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail)]

> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
> Of Thorsten Kampe

> > NOTE: Do NOT change "/bin/ls" into just "ls",
>
> "command ls"

 Ahh... there you are ;-)

--8<--
> > Really soon -> a dead computer. (Powercycling is all that works
> after that)
>
> Your computer cannot be more dead than Windows 98 already is. Using an
> Operating System would you give something like "maximum recursion
> limit exceeded".
>
> Thorsten

 ;-) as I see it any MS generated "OS" has strange limitations/obscurities,
the above is an obvious one in W98.
 Remember where it all began; "Quick And Dirty Dos" -> very few changes ->
"MS-DOS 1.0". IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell
about XP - but I would be surprised if the changes were that many.
 I've been running _well known_ applications on NT that misbehaved every
day.

 Sad but true, the availability of software is too good. An old machine as
it is - sets limits that I do not want to step beyond... "That's why the
lady is a tramp" ;-) .

/Hannu E K Nevalainen, Mariefred, Sweden

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Re: ls Question + bug?

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 11:30 +0100)
>> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf
>> Of Thorsten Kampe
>>> Really soon -> a dead computer. (Powercycling is all that works
>> after that)
>>
>> Your computer cannot be more dead than Windows 98 already is. Using an
>> Operating System would you give something like "maximum recursion
>> limit exceeded".
> 
>  ;-) as I see it any MS generated "OS" has strange limitations/obscurities,
> the above is an obvious one in W98.
>  Remember where it all began; "Quick And Dirty Dos" -> very few changes ->
> "MS-DOS 1.0".

NT 4, 5 ("2000"), 5.1 ("XP") and now 5.2 ("Server 2003") have a stable 
kernel that doesn't have its roots in DOS.

> IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell about XP - but I
> would be surprised if the changes were that many.

XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.

> I've been running _well known_ applications on NT that misbehaved every day.

But they didn't normally crush the whole system.

Thorsten
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Re: ls Question + bug?

[Randall R Schulz]

Thorsten,

At 06:42 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>* Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 11:30 +0100)
> >>
>
> > IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell about XP - but I
> > would be surprised if the changes were that many.
>
>XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.

Hardly.

NT 4 and 2000 have always been perfectly stable and reliable for me, 
running for days and weeks on end without trouble. They have additional 
(subjective) benefit of not having garish, cartoonish GUIs, though 2K 
shows some tendencies. Fortunately, most of the silly stuff can be turned off.

Marginal drivers and flaky hardware are not Microsoft's fault, though 
MS may not make it easy to produce a good driver, I don't really know 
how hard it is.


> > I've been running _well known_ applications on NT that misbehaved 
> every day.

"Well known" does not imply "high quality." Nor does the presence of a 
malfunction in itself point specifically to application problems, OS 
problems, driver problems or hardware problems.


>But they didn't normally crush the whole system.

"Crush?"


>Thorsten


Randall Schulz 


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Re: ls Question + bug?

[Peter Davis]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 07:10:07AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> Thorsten,
> 
> At 06:42 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >* Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 11:30 +0100)
> >>>
> >
> >> IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell about XP - 
> >but I
> >> would be surprised if the changes were that many.
> >
> >XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> 
> Hardly.
> 
> NT 4 and 2000 have always been perfectly stable and reliable for me, 
> running for days and weeks on end without trouble. They have additional 
> (subjective) benefit of not having garish, cartoonish GUIs, though 2K 
> shows some tendencies. Fortunately, most of the silly stuff can be turned 
> off.

NT4, 2000 and XP are all moderately stable, but none of them is what I
would call "rock solid".  I've only had XP for less than a month, but
I've hung the OS several times, and hung Explorer, which is really
interesting.  It's certainly possible to do this with NT and 2K also.

I don't consider any of these to be nearly as robust as *any* of the
*nix systems I'm familiar with, including IRIX, Solaris, and DEC Ultrix.


-- 
--------
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               Funny stuff at http://www.pfdstudio.com
                 The artwork formerly shown as prints
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Re: ls Question + bug?

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Peter Davis (03-04-01 17:46 +0100)
>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>> 
>> Hardly.
>> 
>> NT 4 and 2000 have always been perfectly stable and reliable for me, 
>> running for days and weeks on end without trouble. They have additional 
>> (subjective) benefit of not having garish, cartoonish GUIs, though 2K 
>> shows some tendencies. Fortunately, most of the silly stuff can be turned 
>> off.
> 
> NT4, 2000 and XP are all moderately stable, but none of them is what I
> would call "rock solid".

Me, too. I'd only call XP "rock solid".

> I've only had XP for less than a month, but I've hung the OS several times,
> and hung Explorer, which is really interesting.

I've been using XP since September 2001. I'm not using Explorer[1], 
just SpeedCommander. If the Explorer hangs, I kill it and restart it 
via Task Manager - doesn't hurt the OS.

> It's certainly possible to do this with NT and 2K also.

Easily.

Okay, let's kill this thread. It's becomming quite offtopic...


Thorsten

[1] Okay it's the shell, but not for specific things
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Re: ls Question + bug?

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:10 +0100)
> At 06:42 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>* Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 11:30 +0100)
>>>>
>>
>>> IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell about XP - but I
>>> would be surprised if the changes were that many.
>>
>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> 
> Hardly.
> 
> NT 4 and 2000 have always been perfectly stable and reliable for me, 
> running for days and weeks on end without trouble.

For me too. But I also had "issues" where for example an NT server 
Kernel bluescreened - and *ate its whole C-Drive*. I've seen my 
NetWare server complaining about "duplicate MAC addresses"[1] - *while 
my NT servers where already silently rebooting*. 2000 was better but 
premature.

>>> I've been running _well known_ applications on NT that misbehaved 
>> every day.
>>> 
>> But they didn't normally crush the whole system.
> 
> "Crush?"

"Bring the 'system' (OS and all other running applications) down."

Thorsten

[1] Okay, my fault, but nonetheless
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Re: ls Question + bug?

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:

> * Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) (03-04-01 11:30 +0100)
> >> From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com]On Behalf Of Thorsten Kampe
> >>> Really soon -> a dead computer. (Powercycling is all that works after that)
> >>
> >> Your computer cannot be more dead than Windows 98 already is. Using an
> >> Operating System would you give something like "maximum recursion
> >> limit exceeded".
> >
> >  ;-) as I see it any MS generated "OS" has strange limitations/obscurities,
> > the above is an obvious one in W98.
> >  Remember where it all began; "Quick And Dirty Dos" -> very few changes ->
> > "MS-DOS 1.0".
>
> NT 4, 5 ("2000"), 5.1 ("XP") and now 5.2 ("Server 2003") have a stable
> kernel that doesn't have its roots in DOS.
>
> > IMO the sense of it is still there, even in NT. Can't tell about XP - but I
> > would be surprised if the changes were that many.
>
> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> [snip]
> Thorsten

... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
<http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
	Igor
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     |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'		Igor Pechtchanski
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Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>
> > ...
> >
> > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > [snip]
> > Thorsten
>
>... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).


OH. MY. GOD.

I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.

I guess it really is time to move to Linux.


>     Igor


Randall Schulz 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Randall R Schulz wrote:

> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > > [snip]
> > > Thorsten
> >
> >... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> ><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>
> OH. MY. GOD.
>
> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>
> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
> >     Igor
>
> Randall Schulz

Yeah, scary, isn't it?  That's why I'm still on Win2k SP2 (crack away!).
	Igor
P.S. Read the whole document, BTW - very educational... ;-)
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  -- Leto II


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Martin Gainty]

if XP is such a good OS why did they strip out the JVM?
Some of us prefer writing component based Java over heavy and slow
monolithic Visual Basic apps.
I would purchase XP except I want to Manage my registry instead of Microsoft
'Nuf Said
Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randall R Schulz" <rrschulz@cris.com>
To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:29 AM
Subject: Big Brother is Real


> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > > [snip]
> > > Thorsten
> >
> >... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> ><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>
>
> OH. MY. GOD.
>
> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>
> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>
> >     Igor
>
>
> Randall Schulz
>
>
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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Martin,

I'm not sure I get your drift. I do mostly Java myself, but on every 
system except MacOS one must install the Java SDK or runtime 
separately. I doubt Sun likes that state of affairs and as a Java 
developer, neither do I, but it's how things are right now.

Microsoft dispensed with Java because it's in a legal and market battle 
with Sun. The JVM it was shipping was horridly out-of-date anyway and 
not useful for serious Java application developers.

Anyway, in this thread we're talking about licensing terms and privacy, 
not OS quality.

Randall Schulz


At 07:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:

>If XP is such a good OS why did they strip out the JVM? Some of us 
>prefer writing component based Java over heavy and slow monolithic 
>Visual Basic apps. I would purchase XP except I want to Manage my 
>registry instead of Microsoft.
>
>'Nuf Said.
>
>Martin
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Randall R Schulz" <rrschulz@cris.com>
>To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:29 AM
>Subject: Big Brother is Real
>
>
> > At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> > >On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> > > > [snip]
> > > > Thorsten
> > >
> > >... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> > ><http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >
> >
> > OH. MY. GOD.
> >
> > I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >
> > I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
> >
> >
> > >     Igor
> >
> >
> > Randall Schulz


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>>
>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> 
> OH. MY. GOD.
> 
> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> 
> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.

You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that 
is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.

Thorsten
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 children under the age of 18


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Thorsten,

At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> > At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>
> >> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >
> > OH. MY. GOD.
> >
> > I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >
> > I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.

I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.

You're an odd bird, Thorsten.



>Thorsten

Randall Schulz 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 08:24:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>Thorsten,
>
>At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
>>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>>>>
>>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
>>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>>>
>>> OH. MY. GOD.
>>>
>>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>>>
>>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>>
>>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
>
>I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
>MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.

I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.

Sorry.

cgf

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Herr Doktor Faylor,

At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 08:24:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >Thorsten,
> >
> >At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> >>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>>>
> >>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >>>
> >>> OH. MY. GOD.
> >>>
> >>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >>>
> >>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
> >>
> >>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
> >>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
> >
> >I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or
> >MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.
>
>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>
>Sorry.

Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?


>cgf


Randall Roy (heh!) Schulz 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>>
>>Sorry.
>
>Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?

Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
singled out.  That should do it.

cgf

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Christopher Faylor wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003@09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >>
> >>Sorry.
> >
> >Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>
> Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
> explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
> singled out.  That should do it.
>
> cgf

Ouch!
	Igor
P.S. OTOH, he'll actuallly *deserve* that gold star then... :-)
-- 
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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Chris,

At 09:19 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >>
> >>Sorry.
> >
> >Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>
>Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
>explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
>singled out.  That should do it.

OK, but I'm going to assume the operative word in this prescription for 
penance is "try."

Obligatory disclaimer: I ANAL. You?


>cgf


RRS


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:40:03AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>Chris,
>
>At 09:19 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>>>At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>>>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>>>>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry.
>>>
>>>Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>>
>>Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to
>>explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly
>>singled out.  That should do it.
>
>OK, but I'm going to assume the operative word in this prescription for 
>penance is "try."
>
>Obligatory disclaimer: I ANAL. You?

Nanananana.  I'm not lissssttttennnning!

cgf

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >
> >Sorry.
> 
> Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?

You didn't read your discworld careful enough.  It's spelled

  "Yeth, marthter"

Corinna
(which has still no Igor from Uberwald)

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> > >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> > >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> > >
> > >Sorry.
> >
> > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
>
> You didn't read your discworld careful enough.  It's spelled
>
>   "Yeth, marthter"
>
> Corinna
> (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)

Corinna,

I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.
	Igor (not *that* one, yet)
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  -- Leto II


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
> >
> > You didn't read your discworld careful enough.  It's spelled
> >
> >   "Yeth, marthter"
> >
> > Corinna
> > (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
> 
> Corinna,
> 
> I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.
> 	Igor (not *that* one, yet)

A lisp would be already a good start.  Just don't write programs with it...

Corinna

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
> > >
> > > You didn't read your discworld careful enough.  It's spelled
> > >
> > >   "Yeth, marthter"
> > >
> > > Corinna
> > > (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
> >
> > Corinna,
> >
> > I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.
> >       Igor (not *that* one, yet)
>
> A lisp would be already a good start.  Just don't write programs with it...
> Corinna

Well, FWIW, I don't use Emacs, I use vim.  I've written a fair share of
things in Scheme, though I prefer ML...  We'll need to work on a HUMP,
though... :-)
	Igor
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The Lesser-Known Programming Language #12: LITHP
This otherwise unremarkable language is distinguished by the absence of an
"S" in its character set; users must substitute "TH". LITHP is said to be
useful in protheththing lithtth.


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

At 10:10 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>A lisp would be already a good start.  Just don't write programs with it...

Hey! Lisp is my all-time favorite language!


>Corinna


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 10:38:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> At 10:10 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >A lisp would be already a good start.  Just don't write programs with it...
> 
> Hey! Lisp is my all-time favorite language!

Yeth, thath the thame with all Igorth...

Corinna

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[pd]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> > > >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> > > >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> > > >
> > > >Sorry.
> > >
> > > Yes, master. How shall I punish myself?
> >
> > You didn't read your discworld careful enough.  It's spelled
> >
> >   "Yeth, marthter"
> >
> > Corinna
> > (which has still no Igor from Uberwald)
> 
> Corinna,
> 
> I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump.

You can develop in lisp today.  I think Mumps is pretty much of a dead
language, though.

-pd


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Chris,

At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.

Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...


>Sorry.
>
>cgf


Randy
(there he is again) 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Randall R Schulz wrote:

> Chris,
>
> At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>
> Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...
>
> >Sorry.
> >
> >cgf
>
> Randy
> (there he is again)

Randall,

Your evil twin is wheedling favors out of cgf (or trying to).  Just
thought you should know...
	Igor
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  -- Leto II


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:14:23AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
>>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
>
>Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...

Ok, Igor. Could you gold star "Randy" for, um, er, conspicuous service
on behalf of the cygwin community?

While we're at it, give yourself one for same.  If you don't mind...

cgf

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Christopher Faylor wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:14:23AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> >At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall.
> >>You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move.
> >
> >Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay...
>
> Ok, Igor. Could you gold star "Randy" for, um, er, conspicuous service
> on behalf of the cygwin community?
>
> While we're at it, give yourself one for same.  If you don't mind...
> cgf

Wow, you're generous today.  But then, who am I to argue... :-)
Two gold stars coming up...
	Igor
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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 18:24 +0100)
> At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
>>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
>>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
>>>>
>>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
>>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
>>>
>>> OH. MY. GOD.
>>>
>>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
>>>
>>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>>
>> You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>> is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
> 
> I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
> MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.

I *know*. This was a joohoke.

You won't move to Linux because you're a die-hard Cygwinist and cgf 
won't allow.


Thorsten
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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Martin Gainty]

Linux STILL doesnt have driver support for the latest video cards..
In other words if you're working in Linux keep that VGA card !
-Martin
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thorsten Kampe" <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de>
To: <cygwin@cygwin.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real


> * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 18:24 +0100)
> > At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> >>> At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>>>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>>>
> >>>> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >>>> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >>>
> >>> OH. MY. GOD.
> >>>
> >>> I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >>>
> >>> I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
> >>
> >> You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
> >> is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.
> > 
> > I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
> > MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.
> 
> I *know*. This was a joohoke.
> 
> You won't move to Linux because you're a die-hard Cygwinist and cgf 
> won't allow.
> 
> 
> Thorsten
> -- 
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>  children under the age of 18
> 
> 
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RE: Big Brother is Real

[günter strubinsky]

I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do?

Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I
don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously
software can also turn it on ;)

If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is
hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the
last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool
can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition
is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my
life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones)

About the license policies integrated:

I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful:
The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and
software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is
that it cot hacked.

I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download
that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS
software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private
household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for
business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not
possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets
endless sources.

A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products.
I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual
Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-<char> functions are identical to the MS
way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no
copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on
the horizon.

If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous
documents, I see the sun rise!

guenter 

-----Original Message-----
From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf Of
Randall R Schulz
Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 10:24
To: cygwin@cygwin.com
Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real

Thorsten,

At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100)
> > At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote:
> >> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
> >>> XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS.
> >>
> >> ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of
> >> <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office>).
> >
> > OH. MY. GOD.
> >
> > I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
> >
> > I guess it really is time to move to Linux.
>
>You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that
>is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d.

I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or 
MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me.

You're an odd bird, Thorsten.



>Thorsten

Randall Schulz 


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RE: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Günter,

At 09:56 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do?

It opens a back door for MS snooping. DRM indeed!


>Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I
>don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously
>software can also turn it on ;)

Pentium IV has dispensed with the CPU ID, too. Bad PR, I guess...


>If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is
>hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the
>last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool
>can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition
>is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my
>life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones)

It's a constant battle since MS applications will continue to extend 
their file formats while giving out specs only under non-disclosure. 
This forces the Open Source community to reverse engineer the file 
formats. But they're not cryptographic after all. They're meant to be 
readily encoded and decoded by software, so it's a manageable problem.

Keep in mind that there's a world outside business, too, where things 
like TeX, PostScript and PDF are the linguas franca. Many communities 
either formally proscribe or informally eschew DOC and PPT files.


>About the license policies integrated:
>
>I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful:
>The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and
>software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is
>that it cot hacked.

I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. 
Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a 
right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, 
the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say no" 
to Microsoft.


>I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download
>that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS
>software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private
>household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for
>business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not
>possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets
>endless sources.

Some OEM versions are also excused from the call-back requirements.


>A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products.
>I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual
>Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-<char> functions are identical to the MS
>way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no
>copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on
>the horizon.

Many high-end applications, even jEdit, have user-configurable keyboard 
mappings.

In other words: "Have it your way!"


>If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous
>documents, I see the sun rise!

It's still cloudy here.


>günter

Randall Schulz 


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RE: Big Brother is Real

[günter strubinsky]

Thank you for the clarification, Randall!

Fred mentioned the firewall issue. I have actually zone alarm installed and
disallowed -permanently- the Microsoft software (with the exception as the
usual suspects, DNS, etc.) to contact outside. Now I am not so sure anymore
that I got hacked by anyone else but Bill. My system started to behave
erratically when I had outlook and other ms programs running:

The cpu was around 2-3% busy -never more during those phases- but everything
stalled. (Including the task manager). I start to believe that those progs
called home and waited for response from ms until they timed out which is
why my system froze for about 30-60 seconds, execute a few time slices and
then went into wait-state again. I have office xp installed...

Is there any info out how the snoop works?

-----Original Message-----
From: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com [mailto:cygwin-owner@cygwin.com] On Behalf Of
Randall R Schulz
Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 12:07
To: cygwin@cygwin.com
Subject: RE: Big Brother is Real

Günter,

At 09:56 2003-04-01, you wrote:
>I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do?

It opens a back door for MS snooping. DRM indeed!


>Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id
(I
>don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously
>software can also turn it on ;)

Pentium IV has dispensed with the CPU ID, too. Bad PR, I guess...


>If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is
>hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the
>last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the
tool
>can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition
>is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my
>life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones)

It's a constant battle since MS applications will continue to extend 
their file formats while giving out specs only under non-disclosure. 
This forces the Open Source community to reverse engineer the file 
formats. But they're not cryptographic after all. They're meant to be 
readily encoded and decoded by software, so it's a manageable problem.

Keep in mind that there's a world outside business, too, where things 
like TeX, PostScript and PDF are the linguas franca. Many communities 
either formally proscribe or informally eschew DOC and PPT files.


>About the license policies integrated:
>
>I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful:
>The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and
>software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is
>that it cot hacked.

I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. 
Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a 
right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, 
the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say no" 
to Microsoft.


>I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download
>that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS
>software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private
>household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for
>business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not
>possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets
>endless sources.

Some OEM versions are also excused from the call-back requirements.


>A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products.
>I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual
>Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-<char> functions are identical to the
MS
>way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no
>copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope
on
>the horizon.

Many high-end applications, even jEdit, have user-configurable keyboard 
mappings.

In other words: "Have it your way!"


>If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous
>documents, I see the sun rise!

It's still cloudy here.


>günter

Randall Schulz 


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RE: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Günter,

That first remark of mine was meant facetiously, of course. SP3 does 
more than just open a privacy hole (I assume).

My guess (nope, I haven't done the research--I had my child-like 
naivete destroyed by Igor's URL just today!) is that it's during system 
update that you're going to be probed, but that's just a hunch.

It seems likely that were you to successfully configure a firewall to 
prevent this system probing, you'd also prevent other more desirable 
activity or would simply cause Windows to refuse to function.

Anyway, I shouldn't indulge in this kind of guesswork in public.

WinXPNews (<http://www.winxpnews.com/>) seems to be a good source for 
this sort of information. If (and when) I really want to know, I'll 
probably start there. And Google, of course.

Good luck. Don't let the bedbugs bite!

Randall Schulz


At 10:51 2003-04-01, günter strubinsky wrote:
>Thank you for the clarification, Randall!
>
>Fred mentioned the firewall issue. I have actually zone alarm installed and
>disallowed -permanently- the Microsoft software (with the exception as the
>usual suspects, DNS, etc.) to contact outside. Now I am not so sure anymore
>that I got hacked by anyone else but Bill. My system started to behave
>erratically when I had outlook and other ms programs running:
>
>The cpu was around 2-3% busy -never more during those phases- but everything
>stalled. (Including the task manager). I start to believe that those progs
>called home and waited for response from ms until they timed out which is
>why my system froze for about 30-60 seconds, execute a few time slices and
>then went into wait-state again. I have office xp installed...
>
>Is there any info out how the snoop works?


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Steve Coleman]

Randall R Schulz wrote:

> I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. 
> Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a 
> right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, 
> the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say 
> no" to Microsoft.

And in some cases you can't say "no"!

A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I 
first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on a 
Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even close to 
resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a daily basis. 
At the time I was a representative to the X/Open organization and was 
heavily involved in the system benchmarking and conformance testing to 
ensure that all equipment supplied on several large contracts adhered to 
the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ "legal suites" showed up in 
force and muscled there way in through legal threats. Can you imagine 
that? NASA, as big of a government organization as it is, being muscled 
and pushed around by Microsloths lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open 
complient operating system? Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come 
close to being X/Open complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in 
its infant stages of development. The short story is that M$ intimidated 
NASA into creating a contract just for M$ to sell their stuff even 
though they were not compliant with any of the benchmark tests or 
feature lists required in order to compete.  If you can't compete 
technically (or just need some spare cash on hand), just threaten to sue.

Thank you team Cygwin! ;-)

(These are my own thoughts and opinions and in no way reflect my current 
or past employers positions in any way)

8*}





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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Tim Prince]

On Thursday 03 April 2003 06:54, Steve Coleman wrote:
> Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it.
> > Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a
> > right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note,
> > the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say
> > no" to Microsoft.
>
> And in some cases you can't say "no"!
>
> A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I
> first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on a
> Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even close to
> resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a daily basis.
> At the time I was a representative to the X/Open organization and was
> heavily involved in the system benchmarking and conformance testing to
> ensure that all equipment supplied on several large contracts adhered to
> the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ "legal suites" showed up in
> force and muscled there way in through legal threats. Can you imagine
> that? NASA, as big of a government organization as it is, being muscled
> and pushed around by Microsloths lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open
> complient operating system? Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come
> close to being X/Open complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in
> its infant stages of development. 
Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, 
but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their 
customers run cygwin.  It may be they don't understand how many customers 
depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those 
customers, just collect the fees and forget them.

-- 
Tim Prince

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Randall R Schulz]

Tim,

At 07:28 2003-04-03, you wrote:
>...
>
>Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows 
>XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX 
>than let their customers run cygwin.  It may be they don't understand 
>how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since 
>they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them.


"We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company."
  -- Lily Tomlin


>--
>Tim Prince


Randall Schulz 


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Andrew DeFaria]

Tim Prince wrote:

> Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows 
> XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX 
> than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand 
> how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since 
> they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them.

How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm 
curious because as you even admit "many customers depend on cygwin" so 
it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers 
from running Cygwin.



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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

> Tim Prince wrote:
>
> > Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows
> > XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX
> > than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand
> > how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since
> > they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them.
>
> How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm
> curious because as you even admit "many customers depend on cygwin" so
> it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers
> from running Cygwin.

Microsoft doesn't "stop their customers from running Cygwin", it
introduces API changes that are incompatible with previous versions, and
thus cause programs like Cygwin to not run.  Whether this is deliberate or
accidental remains debatable.
	Igor
-- 
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      |\      _,,,---,,_		pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_		igor@watson.ibm.com
     |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'		Igor Pechtchanski
    '---''(_/--'  `-'\_) fL	a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-.  Meow!

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately
explained by stupidity.


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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 07:28:14AM -0800, Tim Prince wrote:
>Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, 

Wow.  I had no idea I was so powerful.  I think I need a raise.

cgf

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Re: Big Brother is Real

[Andrew DeFaria]

Steve Coleman wrote:

> Randall R Schulz wrote:
>
>> I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. 
>> Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a 
>> right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, 
>> the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to "just say 
>> no" to Microsoft.
>
> And in some cases you can't say "no"! 

You can always say no. You may or may not always wish to deal with the 
consequences of saying no. If you don't want to deal with the 
consequences of saying no then you have actively choosen to say yes.

> A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I 
> first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on 
> a Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even 
> close to resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a 
> daily basis. At the time I was a representative to the X/Open 
> organization and was heavily involved in the system benchmarking and 
> conformance testing to ensure that all equipment supplied on several 
> large contracts adhered to the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ 
> "legal suites" showed up in force and muscled there way in through 
> legal threats. Can you imagine that? NASA, as big of a government 
> organization as it is, being muscled and pushed around by Microsloths 
> lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open complient operating system? 

No I can't imagine that! Somebody, somewhere decided to say yes instead 
of no. That is not being pushed to say yes.

> Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come close to being X/Open 
> complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in its infant stages of 
> development. The short story is that M$ intimidated NASA into creating 
> a contract just for M$ to sell their stuff even though they were not 
> compliant with any of the benchmark tests or feature lists required in 
> order to compete.  If you can't compete technically (or just need some 
> spare cash on hand), just threaten to sue.
>
> Thank you team Cygwin! ;-)
>
> (These are my own thoughts and opinions and in no way reflect my 
> current or past employers positions in any way)
>
> 8*}




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