From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2142 invoked by alias); 23 Jul 2002 18:52:32 -0000 Mailing-List: contact cygwin-help@cygwin.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Subscribe: List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: cygwin-owner@cygwin.com Mail-Followup-To: cygwin@cygwin.com Received: (qmail 2130 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 18:52:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bellana) (213.58.34.245) by sources.redhat.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 18:52:30 -0000 Received: from toos ([192.168.0.231]:3764) by bellana with esmtp (Exim 4.04) id GZPTGX-0001G0-00 for cygwin@cygwin.com; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:46:09 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=3683 helo=toos) by toos with esmtp (Exim 4.04) id GZPTM0-00011W-00 for cygwin@cygwin.com; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:49:12 +0000 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:47:00 -0000 From: Raphael cc: cygwin@cygwin.com Subject: Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions" In-Reply-To: <20020723061237.B9184@ns.helixdigital.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-SW-Source: 2002-07/txt/msg01871.txt.bz2 On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote: > On Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:25:50PM +0100, Raphael wrote: > > On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote: > > > [snip] > > Moderation? Don=B4t start me on that one. In the end Moderation only > > resolves in new not cygwin lists that will attrackt trolls to the cygwin > > list. I'm glad to eleborate if this is not clear. > > No need to elaborate, I'm well aware of the "double-edged sword" > aspects of moderation. Besides, if you read again what I wrote, > I'm referring to a very limited form of moderation, which only > affects the initial post made by all subscribers. That hardly seems > like a detail to "get started" on. Yes it is, becouse your not talking about a first or second posting but about access to the list through a quiz. If I get this wrong then excuse me. > > Who asked them to school new users? Now don't get me wrong, anybody's > > contribution is valuable and special. But if people think they have to > > school fellow list members and are irritated by that it might be a good > > idea for them to take some time of? > > Well, you're right, no one *asked* them. However, as ESR's essay > points out, community standards don't come for free. They have to > be enforced and communicated (what I referred to as "schooling"), > and the problem with many new users that participate in public > mailing lists is that they don't realize that a certain standard > of conduct is expected of them in order to keep the mailing list > working for the common good. Include The Aunt Emily Faq in the welcome faq I would suggest, I myself hate forinstance the wellbehaved educaters on this list who do not seem to understand how the quoting machanisme works and persist in giving answers above a message. But this is not the issue here. > Now granted, you may argue that there are other waysto familiarize > new users with the standards of conduct. You seem to prefer the > FAQ. I guess I prefer the immediate feedback provided by auto-reply > to initial posters. I can accept that. > > [snip] > > I subscibed > > using the site and remeber clearly that there was somekind of incentive > > there and if I'm not mistaking the manual states something alike. What a > > lot of people forget is that for a newbee it is not always clear where = to > > find the right answer or faq. > > Absolutely, I agree with you, it's not always clear. In fact, I > think you may have just corroborated what I've observed for a long > time; information is only *useful* when you are *expecting* to > receive it. > > Trying to tell a new user how to ask questions in the subscription > confirmation is *not* effective because it is *ignored*. The new > user isn't *ready* to hear about "how to ask smart questions" > immediately upon subscribing. The information is irrelevant at > that moment, since they're *not* asking a question at that particular > moment. However, they will be more receptive when they are trying > to get help for the first time; this is the correct time to tell > them. I'm aware of social engineering, I also aware that this can be overdone, IMHO you will just create a disappointment, somebody mailing for the first time denying an answer (or at least an answer where they didn't ask for) will disencourage the use of cygwin. > The moment they're ready to ask their first question on the list > is *precisely* the moment you want to inform them of the minimum > requirements that they are expected to meet. This the reason why > I think blocking first-time posts and automatically informing the > requester they can re-submit their question (after they've read > ESR's essay) is better. > > > Well as you noticed I think it's better to give 'hardworking people' th= eir > > own list where they will not be bothered. I could even agree to make th= at > > accesible by an exame ;-) > > Well, I don't agree, but of course, you have the right to your > opinion :-P > > Seriously, though, I don't think that you want to separate newbies > because then, newbies will probably never become gurus. We *want* > more gurus, because the more gurus we have, the more questions get > answered, and by extension, the more newbies that are helped. Don't you really see where you go wrong, I find it offending to have to think I'm engineerd to become a Guru, this is manipulative to the extend of discusting. > My impression is that Chris, Chuck and the other gurus don't mind > answering questions, per se. They just would like the requesters > to do a little homework before they ask, that's all. I propose a cygwin-gurus. > > > =3D=3D Footnotes =3D=3D > > > > > > [1] - One other way to do this is to include a link to the ESR essay > > > in the confirmation e-mail subscribers receive, but I *doubt* very > > > much that most would take the time to read it then. However, if > > > we instead wait to ask them when they're focused on getting their > > > first question answered, we can hopefully start teaching them the > > > fine art of asking questions. > > > > Is that what this list is for? > > No, but surely if *everyone* on this list (gurus and newbies alike) > asked questions the "smart way" we'd all reap the benefits of a > better and more fruitful mailing list. If you send them to redhat university they wouldn't even have to ask smart questions, they would know smart answers upfront and where a hat (probably red) with the letters Guru on it. > Thanks for your comments, you've helped me sharpen my thinking on > this somewhat controversial topic. Thank you for your comments. Raphael who is now somewhat upset. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/