[ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: man-db-2.6.7-2

[ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: man-db-2.6.7-2

[Yaakov Selkowitz]

The following packages have been updated in the Cygwin distribution:

* man-db-2.6.7-2

man-db is an implementation of the standard Unix documentation system 
accessed using the man command. It uses a Berkeley DB database in place 
of the traditional flat-text whatis databases.

This release removes the cache database generation from the postinstall 
step due to its often excessive length.  Users will need to manage the 
database themselves with mandb(1) in order to use whatis/apropos(1).

-- 
Yaakov
(on behalf of Chris Breisch)


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: man-db-2.6.7-2

[Michael DePaulo]

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 1:52 AM, Yaakov Selkowitz <yselkowitz@cygwin.com> wrote:
> The following packages have been updated in the Cygwin distribution:
>
> * man-db-2.6.7-2
>
> man-db is an implementation of the standard Unix documentation system
> accessed using the man command. It uses a Berkeley DB database in place of
> the traditional flat-text whatis databases.
>
> This release removes the cache database generation from the postinstall step
> due to its often excessive length.  Users will need to manage the database
> themselves with mandb(1) in order to use whatis/apropos(1).
>
> --
> Yaakov
> (on behalf of Chris Breisch)

IMHO, this sounds like a serious decrease in Cygwin's usability.

How do Linux distributions handle this? Linux distros install many
more packages by default, so doesn't their cache database generation
typically take much longer?

Also, should documentation (or perhaps the info a user sees when they
start Cygwin for the 1st time) be updated?

Respectfully,
-Mike

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: man-db-2.6.7-2

[Yaakov Selkowitz]

On 2014-08-15 07:22, Michael DePaulo wrote:
>> This release removes the cache database generation from the postinstall step
>> due to its often excessive length.  Users will need to manage the database
>> themselves with mandb(1) in order to use whatis/apropos(1).
>
> IMHO, this sounds like a serious decrease in Cygwin's usability.
>
> How do Linux distributions handle this? Linux distros install many
> more packages by default, so doesn't their cache database generation
> typically take much longer?

Exactly why they don't seem to do it during postinstall either.  For 
example, in Fedora this is handled by a cron job.  A future release may 
add that functionality, but it is clear that postinstall is the wrong 
place for it.

> Also, should documentation (or perhaps the info a user sees when they
> start Cygwin for the 1st time) be updated?

How so?


Yaakov


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: man-db-2.6.7-2

[Michael DePaulo]

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Yaakov Selkowitz
<yselkowitz@cygwin.com> wrote:
> On 2014-08-15 07:22, Michael DePaulo wrote:
>>>
>>> This release removes the cache database generation from the postinstall
>>> step
>>> due to its often excessive length.  Users will need to manage the
>>> database
>>> themselves with mandb(1) in order to use whatis/apropos(1).
>>
>>
>> IMHO, this sounds like a serious decrease in Cygwin's usability.
>>
>> How do Linux distributions handle this? Linux distros install many
>> more packages by default, so doesn't their cache database generation
>> typically take much longer?
>
>
> Exactly why they don't seem to do it during postinstall either.  For
> example, in Fedora this is handled by a cron job.  A future release may add
> that functionality, but it is clear that postinstall is the wrong place for
> it.

I disagree, but I need to read more about the subject in order to have
a well-informed opinion.

>> Also, should documentation (or perhaps the info a user sees when they
>> start Cygwin for the 1st time) be updated?
>
>
> How so?
>
> Yaakov

Consider the example of where I work. After I install the corporate IT
department's SCCM "package"/"script" for Cygwin (1.7.16, last updated
August 2012), I am greeted by this message every time I start the
Cygwin Terminal:
----
Your group is currently "mkpasswd".  This indicates that your
gid is not in /etc/group and your uid is not in /etc/passwd.

The /etc/passwd (and possibly /etc/group) files should be rebuilt.
See the man pages for mkpasswd and mkgroup then, for example, run

mkpasswd -l [-d] > /etc/passwd
mkgroup  -l [-d] > /etc/group

Note that the -d switch is necessary for domain users.
----
I can get rid of the message if do I run those commands.

However, here's what happens if I do run them:

mkpasswd -l -d
takes 9m29.159s
outputs 37062 lines

mkgroup -l -d
takes 4m26.470s
outputs 36866 lines

(I have to run those commands with admin rights, but fortunately mandb
does not require admin rights because of user DBs.)

I am not suggesting that users see a mandb message every time they
launch cygwin. But I am suggesting that that users see it when they
1st launch cygwin. They already see this message:
----
Copying skeleton files.
These files are for the users to personalise their cygwin experience.

They will never be overwritten nor automatically updated.

'./.bashrc' -> '/home/mike//.bashrc'
'./.bash_profile' -> '/home/mike//.bash_profile'
'./.inputrc' -> '/home/mike//.inputrc'
'./.profile' -> '/home/mike//.profile'
----
Also, users who are particularly reliant on the apropos command
probably don't know about running the mandb command. It's analogous to
users launching the Windows "Help and Support" Center, but its search
bar returning 0 results they haven't run another utility 1st.

-Mike

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: man-db-2.6.7-2

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Michael DePaulo!

>>>>
>>>> This release removes the cache database generation from the postinstall
>>>> step
>>>> due to its often excessive length.  Users will need to manage the
>>>> database
>>>> themselves with mandb(1) in order to use whatis/apropos(1).
>>>
>>>
>>> IMHO, this sounds like a serious decrease in Cygwin's usability.
>>>
>>> How do Linux distributions handle this? Linux distros install many
>>> more packages by default, so doesn't their cache database generation
>>> typically take much longer?
>>
>>
>> Exactly why they don't seem to do it during postinstall either.  For
>> example, in Fedora this is handled by a cron job.  A future release may add
>> that functionality, but it is clear that postinstall is the wrong place for
>> it.

> I disagree, but I need to read more about the subject in order to have
> a well-informed opinion.

The TL;DR version of the issue is that compilation of database is slow and
prone to fail, plus the database should be re-indexed each time a page is
added, removed or changed.
If Cygwin do this only at man-db postinstall, the database WILL go out of
reality pretty soon.

>>> Also, should documentation (or perhaps the info a user sees when they
>>> start Cygwin for the 1st time) be updated?
>>
>>
>> How so?
>>
>> Yaakov

> Consider the example of where I work. After I install the corporate IT
> department's SCCM "package"/"script" for Cygwin (1.7.16, last updated
> August 2012), I am greeted by this message every time I start the
> Cygwin Terminal:
> ----
> Your group is currently "mkpasswd".  This indicates that your
> gid is not in /etc/group and your uid is not in /etc/passwd.

This is about to change in a short while.

> I am not suggesting that users see a mandb message every time they
> launch cygwin.

This could be resolved in a more graceful way. I.e. motd/fortune/etc.

> But I am suggesting that that users see it when they
> 1st launch cygwin. They already see this message:
> ----
> Copying skeleton files.
> These files are for the users to personalise their cygwin experience.

> They will never be overwritten nor automatically updated.

Users will only see this message, if the $HOME directory is created anew.
I, for one, do not see a reason to keep Cygwin users' $HOMEs separate from a
system %USERPROFILE%.

> Also, users who are particularly reliant on the apropos command
> probably don't know about running the mandb command. It's analogous to
> users launching the Windows "Help and Support" Center, but its search
> bar returning 0 results they haven't run another utility 1st.

That's an issue worth resolving. We just need to find a way to do it in a
non-abusive fashion.


--
WBR,
Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@yandex.ru) 16.08.2014, <03:57>

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: man-db-2.6.7-2

[Keith Christian]

Suppose a makefile or similar for this issue, would handle only man
pages that have changed since the last update:


The TL;DR version of the issue is that compilation of database is slow and
prone to fail, plus the database should be re-indexed each time a page is
added, removed or changed.
If Cygwin do this only at man-db postinstall, the database WILL go out of
reality pretty soon.


Keith

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Andrey Repin <anrdaemon@yandex.ru> wrote:
> Greetings, Michael DePaulo!
>
>>>>>
>>>>> This release removes the cache database generation from the postinstall
>>>>> step
>>>>> due to its often excessive length.  Users will need to manage the
>>>>> database
>>>>> themselves with mandb(1) in order to use whatis/apropos(1).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IMHO, this sounds like a serious decrease in Cygwin's usability.
>>>>
>>>> How do Linux distributions handle this? Linux distros install many
>>>> more packages by default, so doesn't their cache database generation
>>>> typically take much longer?
>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly why they don't seem to do it during postinstall either.  For
>>> example, in Fedora this is handled by a cron job.  A future release may add
>>> that functionality, but it is clear that postinstall is the wrong place for
>>> it.
>
>> I disagree, but I need to read more about the subject in order to have
>> a well-informed opinion.
>
> The TL;DR version of the issue is that compilation of database is slow and
> prone to fail, plus the database should be re-indexed each time a page is
> added, removed or changed.
> If Cygwin do this only at man-db postinstall, the database WILL go out of
> reality pretty soon.
>
>>>> Also, should documentation (or perhaps the info a user sees when they
>>>> start Cygwin for the 1st time) be updated?
>>>
>>>
>>> How so?
>>>
>>> Yaakov
>
>> Consider the example of where I work. After I install the corporate IT
>> department's SCCM "package"/"script" for Cygwin (1.7.16, last updated
>> August 2012), I am greeted by this message every time I start the
>> Cygwin Terminal:
>> ----
>> Your group is currently "mkpasswd".  This indicates that your
>> gid is not in /etc/group and your uid is not in /etc/passwd.
>
> This is about to change in a short while.
>
>> I am not suggesting that users see a mandb message every time they
>> launch cygwin.
>
> This could be resolved in a more graceful way. I.e. motd/fortune/etc.
>
>> But I am suggesting that that users see it when they
>> 1st launch cygwin. They already see this message:
>> ----
>> Copying skeleton files.
>> These files are for the users to personalise their cygwin experience.
>
>> They will never be overwritten nor automatically updated.
>
> Users will only see this message, if the $HOME directory is created anew.
> I, for one, do not see a reason to keep Cygwin users' $HOMEs separate from a
> system %USERPROFILE%.
>
>> Also, users who are particularly reliant on the apropos command
>> probably don't know about running the mandb command. It's analogous to
>> users launching the Windows "Help and Support" Center, but its search
>> bar returning 0 results they haven't run another utility 1st.
>
> That's an issue worth resolving. We just need to find a way to do it in a
> non-abusive fashion.
>
>
> --
> WBR,
> Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@yandex.ru) 16.08.2014, <03:57>
>
> Sorry for my terrible english...
>
>
> --
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>

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: man-db-2.6.7-2

[Michael DePaulo]

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Andrey Repin <anrdaemon@yandex.ru> wrote:
> Greetings, Michael DePaulo!
>
>>>>>
>>>>> This release removes the cache database generation from the postinstall
>>>>> step
>>>>> due to its often excessive length.  Users will need to manage the
>>>>> database
>>>>> themselves with mandb(1) in order to use whatis/apropos(1).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IMHO, this sounds like a serious decrease in Cygwin's usability.
>>>>
>>>> How do Linux distributions handle this? Linux distros install many
>>>> more packages by default, so doesn't their cache database generation
>>>> typically take much longer?
>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly why they don't seem to do it during postinstall either.  For
>>> example, in Fedora this is handled by a cron job.  A future release may add
>>> that functionality, but it is clear that postinstall is the wrong place for
>>> it.
>
>> I disagree, but I need to read more about the subject in order to have
>> a well-informed opinion.
>
> The TL;DR version of the issue is that compilation of database is slow and
> prone to fail, plus the database should be re-indexed each time a page is
> added, removed or changed.
> If Cygwin do this only at man-db postinstall, the database WILL go out of
> reality pretty soon.

Understood. I was thinking that the db was generated every time you
updated or installed packages. That's how Debian and its derivatives
do keep it up-to-date. (Actually, they only run mandb if 1 or more of
the updated/installed packages have manpage. It's handled by their
"dpkg trigger" feature.)
Reference: http://askubuntu.com/questions/178773/is-there-a-way-to-see-what-exactly-the-processing-triggers-does-per-package-ba

>>>> Also, should documentation (or perhaps the info a user sees when they
>>>> start Cygwin for the 1st time) be updated?
>>>
>>>
>>> How so?
>>>
>>> Yaakov
>
>> Consider the example of where I work. After I install the corporate IT
>> department's SCCM "package"/"script" for Cygwin (1.7.16, last updated
>> August 2012), I am greeted by this message every time I start the
>> Cygwin Terminal:
>> ----
>> Your group is currently "mkpasswd".  This indicates that your
>> gid is not in /etc/group and your uid is not in /etc/passwd.
>
> This is about to change in a short while.
>
>> I am not suggesting that users see a mandb message every time they
>> launch cygwin.
>
> This could be resolved in a more graceful way. I.e. motd/fortune/etc.
>
>> But I am suggesting that that users see it when they
>> 1st launch cygwin. They already see this message:
>> ----
>> Copying skeleton files.
>> These files are for the users to personalise their cygwin experience.
>
>> They will never be overwritten nor automatically updated.
>
> Users will only see this message, if the $HOME directory is created anew.
> I, for one, do not see a reason to keep Cygwin users' $HOMEs separate from a
> system %USERPROFILE%.
>
>> Also, users who are particularly reliant on the apropos command
>> probably don't know about running the mandb command. It's analogous to
>> users launching the Windows "Help and Support" Center, but its search
>> bar returning 0 results they haven't run another utility 1st.
>
> That's an issue worth resolving. We just need to find a way to do it in a
> non-abusive fashion.
>
>
> --
> WBR,
> Andrey Repin (anrdaemon@yandex.ru) 16.08.2014, <03:57>
>
> Sorry for my terrible english...
>

Thanks, I have a much better understanding of the situation now. I
agree that there is no simple solution.

-Mike

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: man-db-2.6.7-2

[Achim Gratz]

Michael DePaulo writes:
> Consider the example of where I work. After I install the corporate IT
> department's SCCM "package"/"script" for Cygwin (1.7.16, last updated
> August 2012)

That is an entirely different issue and one your IT will have to
resolve.  Given how these departments operate, don't get your hope up
too high; they've already ticked all their checkboxes and moved on to
other things.

In my own installation I do an incremental rebase and will do a mandb
update each time setup has been run (I've patched setup.exe to allow for
that).  That's the only way to keep things sane at the moment if you're
doing installations for anyone but yourself, especially if some of those
user do not have local admin rights.

> I am greeted by this message every time I start the Cygwin Terminal:

That will soon become a non-issue with the AD integration that is in the
works.  Your IT department will have to update to it, though.

[…]
> I am not suggesting that users see a mandb message every time they
> launch cygwin. But I am suggesting that that users see it when they
> 1st launch cygwin. They already see this message:
[…]

In all these cases it's easy and fast to test for the condition that
triggers the message, that is quite necessary since that check will be
run on every login.  Checking for no database would be easy enough I
think, but checking for an outdated database might be more tricky.  I
could think up something to add to base-files for the first case.

I'm not sure what to do for the latter.  I think it must be the
responsibility of any package that installs man pages to trigger a db
update, but that would get us into the situation again that the first
install takes inordinately long on some systems (just to note that
TeXlive has that same problem).  We might need to cook up with some way
to defer these until they can be run in the background.


Regards,
Achim.
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