(setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

(setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Patrick J. LoPresti]

Background: We have been using Cygwin for years.  We use Cygwin's
autoconf.  We do not use Cygwin's Perl, and we do not wish to, because
we are quite happy with the native Windows Perl from ActiveState.

The current version of setup.ini thinks that autoconf requires Perl.
This is not strictly true; Perl is only required for certain optional
pieces of autoconf.  The basic autoconf functionality does not require
Perl.

I would like to suggest either removing this dependency, or adding an
"autoconf-noperl" package which is identical to "autoconf" but without
the Perl dependency.  I am willing to contribute patches for either of
these if the maintainers are amenable.

I would also love to hear other suggestions.  Note that "just deselect
Perl during setup" is not a good answer for me, since I am automating
this installation across a large number of workstations (using
AutoIt).  Clicking at a certain spot in a certain dialog to select
"all packages" is feasible to automate; scrolling down a list to
select/deselect particular packages is not.

Thanks for your time.  And thanks for Cygwin!

 - Pat

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Nicholas Wourms]

--- "Patrick J. LoPresti" <patl@curl.com> wrote:
> Background: We have been using Cygwin for years.  We use Cygwin's
> autoconf.  We do not use Cygwin's Perl, and we do not wish to,
> because
> we are quite happy with the native Windows Perl from ActiveState.
> 
> The current version of setup.ini thinks that autoconf requires
> Perl.
> This is not strictly true; Perl is only required for certain
> optional
> pieces of autoconf.  The basic autoconf functionality does not
> require
> Perl.
> 
> I would like to suggest either removing this dependency, or adding
> an
> "autoconf-noperl" package which is identical to "autoconf" but
> without
> the Perl dependency.  I am willing to contribute patches for either
> of
> these if the maintainers are amenable.
> 
> I would also love to hear other suggestions.  Note that "just
> deselect
> Perl during setup" is not a good answer for me, since I am
> automating
> this installation across a large number of workstations (using
> AutoIt).  Clicking at a certain spot in a certain dialog to select
> "all packages" is feasible to automate; scrolling down a list to
> select/deselect particular packages is not.
> 
> Thanks for your time.  And thanks for Cygwin!

Not in autoconf 2.5x...  This version is totally dependant on perl
for all generation activities.  So setup is absolutely correct in
requiring perl.  AFAIK, there isn't a way to unbundle the perl
functionality either.  So my suggestion is to get over your dislike
of Cygwin perl and install it.  Many people have Cygwin perl and
ActiveState co-existing happily...

Quote straight from the autoconf README:
"Producing configuration scripts using Autoconf requires GNU M4 and
Perl".

Cheers,
Nicholas

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Patrick J. LoPresti]

Nicholas Wourms <nwourms@yahoo.com> writes:

> Not in autoconf 2.5x...  This version is totally dependant on perl
> for all generation activities.  So setup is absolutely correct in
> requiring perl.  AFAIK, there isn't a way to unbundle the perl
> functionality either.  So my suggestion is to get over your dislike
> of Cygwin perl and install it.  Many people have Cygwin perl and
> ActiveState co-existing happily...
> 
> Quote straight from the autoconf README:
> "Producing configuration scripts using Autoconf requires GNU M4 and
> Perl".

(CC'ing webmasters@www.gnu.org)

OK, I stand corrected.  We will live with the multiple versions of
Perl, despite the confusion this can cause.

But somebody should fix the Autoconf home page
<http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/autoconf.html>, which still
says:

    Some optional utilities that come with Autoconf use Perl. However,
    none of those are required in order to use the main Autoconf
    program. If perl is not present, the affected Autoconf utilities
    will not be installed.


 - Pat

P.S. How about renaming Cygwin Perl to "perl" instead of "perl.exe"?

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On 13 Sep 2002, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:

> Nicholas Wourms <nwourms@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > Not in autoconf 2.5x...  This version is totally dependant on perl
> > for all generation activities.  So setup is absolutely correct in
> > requiring perl.  AFAIK, there isn't a way to unbundle the perl
> > functionality either.  So my suggestion is to get over your dislike
> > of Cygwin perl and install it.  Many people have Cygwin perl and
> > ActiveState co-existing happily...
> >
> > Quote straight from the autoconf README:
> > "Producing configuration scripts using Autoconf requires GNU M4 and
> > Perl".
>
> (CC'ing webmasters@www.gnu.org)
>
> OK, I stand corrected.  We will live with the multiple versions of
> Perl, despite the confusion this can cause.
>
> But somebody should fix the Autoconf home page
> <http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/autoconf.html>, which still
> says:
>
>     Some optional utilities that come with Autoconf use Perl. However,
>     none of those are required in order to use the main Autoconf
>     program. If perl is not present, the affected Autoconf utilities
>     will not be installed.
>
>  - Pat
>
> P.S. How about renaming Cygwin Perl to "perl" instead of "perl.exe"?

If you are worried about name clashes, you're better off moving the
ActivePerl directory to the front of your path (in /etc/profile, for
example).
	Igor
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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Nicholas Wourms]

--- Igor Pechtchanski <pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> On 13 Sep 2002, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:
> 
> > Nicholas Wourms <nwourms@yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> > > Not in autoconf 2.5x...  This version is totally dependant on
> perl
> > > for all generation activities.  So setup is absolutely correct
> in
> > > requiring perl.  AFAIK, there isn't a way to unbundle the perl
> > > functionality either.  So my suggestion is to get over your
> dislike
> > > of Cygwin perl and install it.  Many people have Cygwin perl
> and
> > > ActiveState co-existing happily...
> > >
> > > Quote straight from the autoconf README:
> > > "Producing configuration scripts using Autoconf requires GNU M4
> and
> > > Perl".
> >
> > (CC'ing webmasters@www.gnu.org)
> >
> > OK, I stand corrected.  We will live with the multiple versions
> of
> > Perl, despite the confusion this can cause.
> >
> > But somebody should fix the Autoconf home page
> > <http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/autoconf.html>, which still
> > says:
> >
> >     Some optional utilities that come with Autoconf use Perl.
> However,
> >     none of those are required in order to use the main Autoconf
> >     program. If perl is not present, the affected Autoconf
> utilities
> >     will not be installed.
> >
> >  - Pat
> >
> > P.S. How about renaming Cygwin Perl to "perl" instead of
> "perl.exe"?
> 
> If you are worried about name clashes, you're better off moving the
> ActivePerl directory to the front of your path (in /etc/profile,
> for
> example).

That won't work, because then autoconf/automake will stop working
properly, as they expect a perl which interprets POSIX naming and
path conventions.

Cheers,
Nicholas

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Patrick J. LoPresti]

Nicholas Wourms <nwourms@yahoo.com> writes:

> --- Igor Pechtchanski <pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> > If you are worried about name clashes, you're better off moving the
> > ActivePerl directory to the front of your path (in /etc/profile,
> > for
> > example).
> 
> That won't work, because then autoconf/automake will stop working
> properly, as they expect a perl which interprets POSIX naming and
> path conventions.

I believe the autoconf/automake scripts use "#!/usr/bin/perl" to
invoke Perl, so it should work fine.

 - Pat

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Patrick J. LoPresti]

Igor Pechtchanski <pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu> writes:

> On 13 Sep 2002, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:
> 
> > P.S. How about renaming Cygwin Perl to "perl" instead of "perl.exe"?
> 
> If you are worried about name clashes, you're better off moving the
> ActivePerl directory to the front of your path (in /etc/profile, for
> example).

No, not really.  ActivePerl and Cygwin Perl are *different* programs.
You know which one you want when you invoke it, not when you set up
your PATH; they really must have different names.

Under your suggestion, the name for ActivePerl would be "perl" and the
name for Cygwin Perl would be "/usr/bin/perl".  This makes it
impossible to write a portable script between Unix (where perl might
really be "/usr/local/bin/perl") and Cygwin.

We don't happen to have any such scripts, so your suggestion works for
us and is what I plan to do.  But it really isn't the "right" answer.
Neither is my suggestion, really, but for different reasons :-).

 - Pat

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Igor Pechtchanski]

On 13 Sep 2002, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:

> Igor Pechtchanski <pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu> writes:
>
> > On 13 Sep 2002, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:
> >
> > > P.S. How about renaming Cygwin Perl to "perl" instead of "perl.exe"?
> >
> > If you are worried about name clashes, you're better off moving the
> > ActivePerl directory to the front of your path (in /etc/profile, for
> > example).
>
> No, not really.  ActivePerl and Cygwin Perl are *different* programs.
> You know which one you want when you invoke it, not when you set up
> your PATH; they really must have different names.
>
> Under your suggestion, the name for ActivePerl would be "perl" and the
> name for Cygwin Perl would be "/usr/bin/perl".  This makes it
> impossible to write a portable script between Unix (where perl might
> really be "/usr/local/bin/perl") and Cygwin.
>
> We don't happen to have any such scripts, so your suggestion works for
> us and is what I plan to do.  But it really isn't the "right" answer.
> Neither is my suggestion, really, but for different reasons :-).

Not quite.  If you know exactly which perl you want, you specify the exact
path (i.e. #!/usr/bin/perl or #!/cygdrive/c/ActivePerl/bin/perl).  If
you're using just "perl", you get what you paid for (i.e. whatever's in
the path).  I think autoconf uses an explicit path to perl, so $PATH
shouldn't matter much.
Oh, and perl, when installed in /usr/local/bin, usually has a wrapper in
/usr/bin, so using /usr/bin/perl should be pretty portable.
	Igor
-- 
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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Nicholas Wourms]

--- "Patrick J. LoPresti" <patl@curl.com> wrote:
> Nicholas Wourms <nwourms@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> > Not in autoconf 2.5x...  This version is totally dependant on
> perl
> > for all generation activities.  So setup is absolutely correct in
> > requiring perl.  AFAIK, there isn't a way to unbundle the perl
> > functionality either.  So my suggestion is to get over your
> dislike
> > of Cygwin perl and install it.  Many people have Cygwin perl and
> > ActiveState co-existing happily...
> > 
> > Quote straight from the autoconf README:
> > "Producing configuration scripts using Autoconf requires GNU M4
> and
> > Perl".
> 
> (CC'ing webmasters@www.gnu.org)
> 
> OK, I stand corrected.  We will live with the multiple versions of
> Perl, despite the confusion this can cause.
>

Your best bet is to move the Cygwin perl.exe to a new directory which
isn't in PATH.  Then you can make a wrapper script called "perl",
which resides in bin, that parses the arguments passed to it.  I
haven't used ActiveState myself, but I'm sure there are consistant
differences between the two.  It's just a matter of pinning the
heuristics down.  If you're curious, this type of methodology is how
we allow different versions of autoconf/automake/libtool to exist on
the same machine.
[SNIP]

> P.S. How about renaming Cygwin Perl to "perl" instead of
"perl.exe"?

See above for a better solution, because it is possible there are
circumstances where Cygwin will not recognize an executable binary
without the .exe extension.

Cheers,
Nicholas

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Patrick J. LoPresti]

Nicholas Wourms <nwourms@yahoo.com> writes:

> Your best bet is to move the Cygwin perl.exe to a new directory which
> isn't in PATH.  Then you can make a wrapper script called "perl",
> which resides in bin, that parses the arguments passed to it.  I
> haven't used ActiveState myself, but I'm sure there are consistant
> differences between the two.

Nothing you could easily detect by a heuristic, I am afraid.  The
biggest difference is probably that ActiveState does not know about
Cygwin paths (and Cygwin does not supply the Win32 module (?)).  So
"/foo" has meaning to each; it just means something different...

Heuristics are often a poor design.  The author of the Perl code knows
which version she wants; she should have a way to specify it.

"perl" vs. "perl.exe" is not a perfect solution, but it is at least as
good as any of the others I have seen.

 - Pat

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 11:52:04AM -0400, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:
>"perl" vs. "perl.exe" is not a perfect solution, but it is at least as
>good as any of the others I have seen.

It is not any solution at all.

Please disabuse yourself of the notion that we will be changing the cygwin
installation to solve your problems.  It is not going to happen.

cgf

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Patrick J. LoPresti]

Christopher Faylor <cgf@redhat.com> writes:

> On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 11:52:04AM -0400, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:
> >"perl" vs. "perl.exe" is not a perfect solution, but it is at least as
> >good as any of the others I have seen.
> 
> It is not any solution at all.
> 
> Please disabuse yourself of the notion that we will be changing the cygwin
> installation to solve your problems.  It is not going to happen.

"My" problem is that two different programs have the same name.  I
understand now why Cygwin Perl needs the .exe to function correctly.
And anyway, I was not really expecting to see anything change,
including your legendary attitude.  (When hundreds of people tell him
he's an ass, a wise man will consider that maybe, just maybe, he is
doing something wrong.)

The correct solution is probably for ActivePerl to have been named
something else, like "ActivePerl.exe".  And autoconf should not depend
on Perl in the first place, since it is not a standard Unix utility.
But I do not expect either of those things to change, either.

Have a nice day!

 - Pat

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Gerrit P. Haase]

Patrick schrieb:

> Nothing you could easily detect by a heuristic, I am afraid.  The
> biggest difference is probably that ActiveState does not know about
> Cygwin paths (and Cygwin does not supply the Win32 module (?)).

There is an initial port of libwin32 available, well it sure needs some
more work, i.e. the ODBC module does not pass the test.  Try it, apply
the patch to the 0.18 version:
http://iokaste.koeln.convey.de/cywgin/libwin32/libwin32-0.18-2-cygwin.patch
http://iokaste.koeln.convey.de/cywgin/libwin32/README


Gerrit
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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 11:33:25AM -0400, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:
>P.S. How about renaming Cygwin Perl to "perl" instead of "perl.exe"?

Renaming perl to something without a .exe extension would mean that
people in Windows 9x land wouldn't be able to run it.  It's possible
that it would mean that you wouldn't be able to run it from the command
prompt on Windows NT, too.

cgf

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RE: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Robinow, David]

> From: Patrick J. LoPresti [mailto:patl@curl.com]
> Subject: Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?
> Heuristics are often a poor design.  The author of the Perl code knows
> which version she wants; she should have a way to specify it.
> 
> "perl" vs. "perl.exe" is not a perfect solution, but it is at least as
> good as any of the others I have seen.
 /proc/registry/HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/SOFTWARE/Perl/BinDir contains the path to
ActiveState Perl
(/proc/registry/HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/SOFTWARE/ActiveState/ActivePerl also
points to it indirectly)
 Somebody more industrious than I could write a script to invoke it.
 Once you find yourself in perl,  $^O  returns "MSWin32" for ActivePerl and
"cygwin" for guess what.

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RE: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Robinow, David]

> From: Patrick J. LoPresti [mailto:patl@curl.com]
> Subject: Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?
> Christopher Faylor <cgf@redhat.com> writes:
> > Please disabuse yourself of the notion that we will be changing the
cygwin
> > installation to solve your problems.  It is not going to happen.
> 
> "My" problem is that two different programs have the same name.  I
  You have failed to demonstrate that this is an actual problem.

> understand now why Cygwin Perl needs the .exe to function correctly.
> And anyway, I was not really expecting to see anything change,
> including your legendary attitude.  (When hundreds of people tell him
> he's an ass, a wise man will consider that maybe, just maybe, he is
> doing something wrong.)
 I do not feel that a definitive statement of direction
from the leader of a project constitutes being an ass.
He even said please! 
> 
> The correct solution is probably for ActivePerl to have been named
> something else, like "ActivePerl.exe".  And autoconf should not depend
> on Perl in the first place, since it is not a standard Unix utility.
> But I do not expect either of those things to change, either.
 Nothing is stopping you.
  mv /c/perl/bin/perl.exe /c/perl/bin/ActivePerl.exe

 Your statement about autoconf depending on perl is just silly.

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RE: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Nicholas Wourms]

--- "Robinow, David" <drobinow@dayton.adroit.com> wrote:
> 
>  Your statement about autoconf depending on perl is just silly.
> 

Excuse me, I direct you to "vi /usr/autotools/devel/bin/autoheader". 
Then check out "autom4te" in the same directory.  The latter is
*required* to generate any configure script using autoconf 2.5x. 
Just for the archives and again for the record, perl is *required*
for autoconf.

Cheers,
Nicholas

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RE: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Robinow, David]

> From: Nicholas Wourms [mailto:nwourms@yahoo.com]
> Subject: RE: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?
> --- "Robinow, David" <drobinow@dayton.adroit.com> wrote:
> > 
> >  Your statement about autoconf depending on perl is just silly.
> Excuse me, I direct you to "vi /usr/autotools/devel/bin/autoheader". 
> Then check out "autom4te" in the same directory.  The latter is
> *required* to generate any configure script using autoconf 2.5x. 
> Just for the archives and again for the record, perl is *required*
> for autoconf.
 Excuse me.  My attempt at brevity has led to confusion.  I was not
disputing
the dependency, I was disputing the contention that autoconf should
not depend on perl because perl is "not a standard unix tool".

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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Raphael]

On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 05:02:27PM -0400, Robinow, David wrote:
> > From: Nicholas Wourms [mailto:nwourms@yahoo.com]
> > Subject: RE: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?
> > --- "Robinow, David" <drobinow@dayton.adroit.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > >  Your statement about autoconf depending on perl is just silly.
> > Excuse me, I direct you to "vi /usr/autotools/devel/bin/autoheader". 
> > Then check out "autom4te" in the same directory.  The latter is
> > *required* to generate any configure script using autoconf 2.5x. 
> > Just for the archives and again for the record, perl is *required*
> > for autoconf.
>  Excuse me.  My attempt at brevity has led to confusion.  I was not
> disputing
> the dependency, I was disputing the contention that autoconf should
> not depend on perl because perl is "not a standard unix tool".

Guess that was to far fetched for Mr. "Obnoxious" Wourms. He just 
couldn`t pass the change to put someone in his 'imaginative' place.

Kind regards,

Raphael
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Re: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?

[Nicholas Wourms]

--- Raphael <raphael@oninet.pt> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 05:02:27PM -0400, Robinow, David wrote:
> > > From: Nicholas Wourms [mailto:nwourms@yahoo.com]
> > > Subject: RE: (setup.ini) autoconf requires Perl?
> > > --- "Robinow, David" <drobinow@dayton.adroit.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >  Your statement about autoconf depending on perl is just
> silly.
> > > Excuse me, I direct you to "vi
> /usr/autotools/devel/bin/autoheader". 
> > > Then check out "autom4te" in the same directory.  The latter is
> > > *required* to generate any configure script using autoconf
> 2.5x. 
> > > Just for the archives and again for the record, perl is
> *required*
> > > for autoconf.
> >  Excuse me.  My attempt at brevity has led to confusion.  I was
> not
> > disputing
> > the dependency, I was disputing the contention that autoconf
> should
> > not depend on perl because perl is "not a standard unix tool".
> 
> Guess that was to far fetched for Mr. "Obnoxious" Wourms. He just 
> couldn`t pass the change to put someone in his 'imaginative' place.

LOL!  Could your comments be any more inane or trite?  Must you
resort to personal attacks to prove your point because your arguments
lack any credible substance?  You never cease to amaze me with your
invincible ignorance...

Cheers,
Nicholas

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