From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Kendall Clark To: docbook-tools-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com Cc: Mark Galassi , Norman Walsh , Eric Lee Green , esr@thyrsus.com Subject: Re: I'm trying to set up docbook-tools... Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:36:00 -0000 Message-id: <14692.50781.521325.126382@cmpu.net> References: <200007041511.LAA15779@snark.thyrsus.com> <00070410352500.07357@ehome.inhouse> <873dlnjklb.fsf@nwalsh.com> <20000706131959.A25726@thyrsus.com> <76g0pnjhmt.fsf@odie.lanl.gov> <20000706134507.D25726@thyrsus.com> X-SW-Source: 2000/msg00227.html >>>>> "Eric" == Eric S Raymond writes: Mark Galassi : >> On this list we should not tell people that "they have failed" >> just because their pedagogical approach did not work for us. Eric> You're quite right. We tell people they have failed when Eric> their pedagogical approach has been reported to be Eric> ineffective by independent multiple observers. Eric> That is, that's what we do if we actually care about Eric> improving matters. If all we want to do is wrap the failure Eric> in a thick layer of feel-good batting so it can be ignored, Eric> then perhaps we do something else. Well if it's about adjudicating pedagogy, then I should chime in with "Norm's book helped me tremendously, as has Norm personally on the several occasions when I emailed him with questions." I figured out SGML and DocBook well before Norm's book came out, well before I learned to program in fact. There are other SGML books, some of which are rather practical. Those helped too. As for actually setting up and installing the various permutations of the free tool chain, I just don't see why it's *so* hard for someone with a bit of technical ability or experience. Could it be *easier*? Of course. But so could nearly every bit of free software I've ever used. I started working with SGML on Linux in '96, well before anyone was making nice RPM packages for it; maybe that's an advantage in a perverse way? I'm not sure. Best, Kendall Clark From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Kendall Clark To: docbook-tools-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com Cc: Mark Galassi , Norman Walsh , Eric Lee Green , esr@thyrsus.com Subject: Re: I'm trying to set up docbook-tools... Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:48:00 -0000 Message-ID: <14692.50781.521325.126382@cmpu.net> References: <200007041511.LAA15779@snark.thyrsus.com> <00070410352500.07357@ehome.inhouse> <873dlnjklb.fsf@nwalsh.com> <20000706131959.A25726@thyrsus.com> <76g0pnjhmt.fsf@odie.lanl.gov> <20000706134507.D25726@thyrsus.com> X-SW-Source: 2000-q3/msg00025.html Message-ID: <20000706104800.CYuUpJ2AHLPlVn3v19ESi01y3jVnEo8fmu-P4zCDzUI@z> >>>>> "Eric" == Eric S Raymond writes: Mark Galassi : >> On this list we should not tell people that "they have failed" >> just because their pedagogical approach did not work for us. Eric> You're quite right. We tell people they have failed when Eric> their pedagogical approach has been reported to be Eric> ineffective by independent multiple observers. Eric> That is, that's what we do if we actually care about Eric> improving matters. If all we want to do is wrap the failure Eric> in a thick layer of feel-good batting so it can be ignored, Eric> then perhaps we do something else. Well if it's about adjudicating pedagogy, then I should chime in with "Norm's book helped me tremendously, as has Norm personally on the several occasions when I emailed him with questions." I figured out SGML and DocBook well before Norm's book came out, well before I learned to program in fact. There are other SGML books, some of which are rather practical. Those helped too. As for actually setting up and installing the various permutations of the free tool chain, I just don't see why it's *so* hard for someone with a bit of technical ability or experience. Could it be *easier*? Of course. But so could nearly every bit of free software I've ever used. I started working with SGML on Linux in '96, well before anyone was making nice RPM packages for it; maybe that's an advantage in a perverse way? I'm not sure. Best, Kendall Clark