From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "David C. Mason" Cc: docbook-tools-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com Subject: Re: I'm trying to set up docbook-tools... Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:36:00 -0000 Message-id: <20000706150802.A26225@thyrsus.com> References: <200007041511.LAA15779@snark.thyrsus.com> <00070410352500.07357@ehome.inhouse> <873dlnjklb.fsf@nwalsh.com> <20000706131959.A25726@thyrsus.com> X-SW-Source: 2000/msg00230.html David C. Mason : > Your problem installing the tools seemed (as I read back through the > thread) to be one of finding a mirror that was bad. Once you found a > mirror which contained the RPMs needed are we to assume the > installation went according to plan? Oh, no. That wasn't my only problem by a long shot. I actually went through three different attempts to get three different sets of tools running -- Jade, OpenJade, and the DocBook tools. Not one of them had adequate documentation for beginners, even technically sophisticated beginners like me with considerable prior knowledge of SGML (I did a lot of of extension work on SGML-Tools for the LDP). All three have web pages that are remarkable for the amount of detail they convey without actually saying anything useful. > Can all of this be improved for the newbie - it sure can. In fact new > scripts or even applications can be written. You are a hacker, would > you like to write them? Can I assume the answer is no? Do you mean like the user's guide I once wrote for SGML-Tools to address exactly this problem? :-) Sorry, David. You don't get to accuse *me* of carping without contributing. I happen to be the person who made SGML-Tools 1.1 usable for fast-turnaround book publishing, proved it by producing "Linux Undercover" for Red Hat, and then documented what I did. But don't take my word for any of that -- go ask Ed Bailey about it. You'd probably find the story both entertaining and instructive. > Slamming someone's book certainly cannot help you learn can it? Slamming someone's book for lack of clarity certainly *can* be helpful if it wakes the author (and the dysfunctional culture surrounding the author) up to a problem. I did not mean to imply that Norman Walsh's book is without value. If I already knew most of what was in it, I'm sure it would make a dandy reference. But that's the problem -- the book is only useful for people who already have a working SGML toolset and considerable pre-acquired expertise. The fact that it was not useful to a person who had already done substantial SGML publishing and extension work on SGML tools *should* be an important message. > I say 'kudos' to Norm for the following: I'll cheerfully say Norm is a wonderful guy too, if that will make you or him feel any better. He's done a lot of good things. Unfortunately, none of those things includes actually making SGML accessible to the un-initiated. *And that is the issue here*. The DocBook community has a huge blind spot. The consequences of that blind spot drive away people like Eric Lee Green or myself who would otherwise love to contrivbute more. -- Eric S. Raymond "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." -- John F. Kennedy From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "David C. Mason" Cc: docbook-tools-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com Subject: Re: I'm trying to set up docbook-tools... Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:59:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20000706150802.A26225@thyrsus.com> References: <200007041511.LAA15779@snark.thyrsus.com> <00070410352500.07357@ehome.inhouse> <873dlnjklb.fsf@nwalsh.com> <20000706131959.A25726@thyrsus.com> X-SW-Source: 2000-q3/msg00028.html Message-ID: <20000706115900.JDM-xkYjPSZnWzUHwb7DbYcJRAxgJlbWUH7wUz6eLbs@z> David C. Mason : > Your problem installing the tools seemed (as I read back through the > thread) to be one of finding a mirror that was bad. Once you found a > mirror which contained the RPMs needed are we to assume the > installation went according to plan? Oh, no. That wasn't my only problem by a long shot. I actually went through three different attempts to get three different sets of tools running -- Jade, OpenJade, and the DocBook tools. Not one of them had adequate documentation for beginners, even technically sophisticated beginners like me with considerable prior knowledge of SGML (I did a lot of of extension work on SGML-Tools for the LDP). All three have web pages that are remarkable for the amount of detail they convey without actually saying anything useful. > Can all of this be improved for the newbie - it sure can. In fact new > scripts or even applications can be written. You are a hacker, would > you like to write them? Can I assume the answer is no? Do you mean like the user's guide I once wrote for SGML-Tools to address exactly this problem? :-) Sorry, David. You don't get to accuse *me* of carping without contributing. I happen to be the person who made SGML-Tools 1.1 usable for fast-turnaround book publishing, proved it by producing "Linux Undercover" for Red Hat, and then documented what I did. But don't take my word for any of that -- go ask Ed Bailey about it. You'd probably find the story both entertaining and instructive. > Slamming someone's book certainly cannot help you learn can it? Slamming someone's book for lack of clarity certainly *can* be helpful if it wakes the author (and the dysfunctional culture surrounding the author) up to a problem. I did not mean to imply that Norman Walsh's book is without value. If I already knew most of what was in it, I'm sure it would make a dandy reference. But that's the problem -- the book is only useful for people who already have a working SGML toolset and considerable pre-acquired expertise. The fact that it was not useful to a person who had already done substantial SGML publishing and extension work on SGML tools *should* be an important message. > I say 'kudos' to Norm for the following: I'll cheerfully say Norm is a wonderful guy too, if that will make you or him feel any better. He's done a lot of good things. Unfortunately, none of those things includes actually making SGML accessible to the un-initiated. *And that is the issue here*. The DocBook community has a huge blind spot. The consequences of that blind spot drive away people like Eric Lee Green or myself who would otherwise love to contrivbute more. -- Eric S. Raymond "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." -- John F. Kennedy