From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
To: docbook-tools-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com
Subject: Re: I'm trying to set up docbook-tools...
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 07:49:00 -0000
Message-ID: <87hfa2ni9t.fsf@nwalsh.com>
References: <200007041511.LAA15779@snark.thyrsus.com> <00070410352500.07357@ehome.inhouse> <873dlnjklb.fsf@nwalsh.com> <20000706131959.A25726@thyrsus.com>
X-SW-Source: 2000-q3/msg00046.html
Message-ID: <20000707074900.xTok_TmLKaBl5kZpboN2k6M0CwnIt2t-xWG2JLmtei0@z>

/ "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> was heard to say:
| I don't think anybody doubts that it was your intention to be clear.
| Your execution, however, completely failed in that respect.  The

Completely? Thanks.

| failure seems to me to be an indicator of a wider problem in the
| technical culture surrounding SGML, one I've bitched about before.

Yes, you have.

| Two years ago, I complained vociferously on the DocBook list that the
| SGML culture had a pathological case of self-absorption and seemed to

And with such vitriol and ranting that several respectable members of
the list asked you to please be polite or go away.

| unable to explain.  For bringing this unwelcome news, I was flamed and
| shunned.

Is that how you saw it. How, um, symmetrical.

| Can this be fixed?  I don't know.  The problem isn't any lack of
| intelligence or good intentions on the part of the DocBook group.  
| There's something fundamentally disconnected and broken in the
| attitude department, though -- an inability to see what the SGML
| world looks like from the point of view of somebody who just
| wants to get some work done.

That's not really fair, IMHO. Two years ago, when you ranted on the
DocBook list, there *were no tool sets that we could point to*. SGML
was a build-it-yourself world.

Now, as I've said, thanks to the tremdous efforts of lots and lots of
people, we *do have tool sets* that we can point to. They aren't perfect
yet, they don't install easily enough, and they don't satisfy everyone.
But we've come a long way and the efforts continue.

Not only do I think the problem can be fixed, I'm confident it will
be.

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | The worst enemy of life, freedom and
http://nwalsh.com/            | the common decencies is total anarchy;
                              | their second worst enemy is total
                              | efficiency.--Aldous Huxley