[ECOS] ethernet download

[ECOS] ethernet download

[Trenton D. Adams]

Is there a utility for my edb7111-2 for downloading ROM eCos programs
over ethernet?

It would obviously have to start with serial in order to get the
original ethernet driver over and then finish over ethernet.

Trenton D. Adams
Extreme Engineering
#17, 6025 - 12 St. SE
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
T2H 2K1

Phone: 403 640 9494 ext-208
Fax: 403 640 9599

http://www.extremeeng.com

RE: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Gary Thomas]

On 23-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
> Is there a utility for my edb7111-2 for downloading ROM eCos programs
> over ethernet?
> 
> It would obviously have to start with serial in order to get the
> original ethernet driver over and then finish over ethernet.
> 

What about RedBoot? :-)

RE: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Trenton D. Adams]

What about it?  It only allows you to download a ROM image once, and
then it's wiped out of FLASH, no?  If I have to download redboot every
time, it defeats the purpose a little bit because it might not save any
time.

-----Original Message-----
From: ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com
[ mailto:ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com ] On Behalf Of Gary Thomas
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 5:05 PM
To: Trenton D. Adams
Cc: eCos Discussion
Subject: RE: [ECOS] ethernet download



On 23-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
> Is there a utility for my edb7111-2 for downloading ROM eCos programs
> over ethernet?
> 
> It would obviously have to start with serial in order to get the
> original ethernet driver over and then finish over ethernet.
> 

What about RedBoot? :-)

RE: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Gary Thomas]

On 24-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
> What about it?  It only allows you to download a ROM image once, and
> then it's wiped out of FLASH, no?  If I have to download redboot every
> time, it defeats the purpose a little bit because it might not save any
> time.
> 

That's true - for the primary ROM image.  If you're looking for a faster
way to load big ROM images, rather than keeping RedBoot in place, you're
out of luck I'm sorry.

What is it that you want to have in ROM?  Will it fit alongside of RedBoot?
If so, you can keep RedBoot in there to help you download and manipulate
the FLASH (I hope it's FLASH!).  You can still execute from FLASH if you
wish, or use RedBoot commands to load & go from FLASH.

We do this sort of thing all the time with embedded Linux systems.  RedBoot
is kept for the purpose of system startup, download and FLASH management.
When the system starts, a RedBoot script is used to startup the Linux
kernel, etc.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com
> [ mailto:ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com ] On Behalf Of Gary Thomas
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 5:05 PM
> To: Trenton D. Adams
> Cc: eCos Discussion
> Subject: RE: [ECOS] ethernet download
> 
> 
> 
> On 23-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
>> Is there a utility for my edb7111-2 for downloading ROM eCos programs
>> over ethernet?
>> 
>> It would obviously have to start with serial in order to get the
>> original ethernet driver over and then finish over ethernet.
>> 
> 
> What about RedBoot? :-)

RE: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Trenton D. Adams]

That sounds cool.  I never thought of that.  I'll try it.  How much RAM
does Redboot take up?  Can you have it take up a smaller amount of RAM
after it's started the other system?  We are only putting 1M RAM on our
target board so I can't have it taking up much.

-----Original Message-----
From: gary@chez-thomas.org [ mailto:gary@chez-thomas.org ] On Behalf Of
Gary Thomas
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 8:59 AM
To: Trenton D. Adams
Cc: eCos Discussion; eCos Discussion; Trenton D. Adams
Subject: RE: [ECOS] ethernet download



On 24-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
> What about it?  It only allows you to download a ROM image once, and
> then it's wiped out of FLASH, no?  If I have to download redboot every
> time, it defeats the purpose a little bit because it might not save
any
> time.
> 

That's true - for the primary ROM image.  If you're looking for a faster
way to load big ROM images, rather than keeping RedBoot in place, you're
out of luck I'm sorry.

What is it that you want to have in ROM?  Will it fit alongside of
RedBoot?
If so, you can keep RedBoot in there to help you download and manipulate
the FLASH (I hope it's FLASH!).  You can still execute from FLASH if you
wish, or use RedBoot commands to load & go from FLASH.

We do this sort of thing all the time with embedded Linux systems.
RedBoot
is kept for the purpose of system startup, download and FLASH
management.
When the system starts, a RedBoot script is used to startup the Linux
kernel, etc.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com
> [ mailto:ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com ] On Behalf Of Gary
Thomas
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 5:05 PM
> To: Trenton D. Adams
> Cc: eCos Discussion
> Subject: RE: [ECOS] ethernet download
> 
> 
> 
> On 23-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
>> Is there a utility for my edb7111-2 for downloading ROM eCos programs
>> over ethernet?
>> 
>> It would obviously have to start with serial in order to get the
>> original ethernet driver over and then finish over ethernet.
>> 
> 
> What about RedBoot? :-)

RE: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Gary Thomas]

On 24-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
> That sounds cool.  I never thought of that.  I'll try it.  How much RAM
> does Redboot take up?  Can you have it take up a smaller amount of RAM
> after it's started the other system?  We are only putting 1M RAM on our
> target board so I can't have it taking up much.
> 

The normal case is for RedBoot to use 128K.  However, if you're willing
to give up RedBoot's services (e.g. network console & debugging, etc)
after starting your code, that can be reduced to 0 (it's a non-factor
becaose your code will use everything available).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gary@chez-thomas.org [ mailto:gary@chez-thomas.org ] On Behalf Of
> Gary Thomas
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 8:59 AM
> To: Trenton D. Adams
> Cc: eCos Discussion; eCos Discussion; Trenton D. Adams
> Subject: RE: [ECOS] ethernet download
> 
> 
> 
> On 24-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
>> What about it?  It only allows you to download a ROM image once, and
>> then it's wiped out of FLASH, no?  If I have to download redboot every
>> time, it defeats the purpose a little bit because it might not save
> any
>> time.
>> 
> 
> That's true - for the primary ROM image.  If you're looking for a faster
> way to load big ROM images, rather than keeping RedBoot in place, you're
> out of luck I'm sorry.
> 
> What is it that you want to have in ROM?  Will it fit alongside of
> RedBoot?
> If so, you can keep RedBoot in there to help you download and manipulate
> the FLASH (I hope it's FLASH!).  You can still execute from FLASH if you
> wish, or use RedBoot commands to load & go from FLASH.
> 
> We do this sort of thing all the time with embedded Linux systems.
> RedBoot
> is kept for the purpose of system startup, download and FLASH
> management.
> When the system starts, a RedBoot script is used to startup the Linux
> kernel, etc.
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com
>> [ mailto:ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com ] On Behalf Of Gary
> Thomas
>> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 5:05 PM
>> To: Trenton D. Adams
>> Cc: eCos Discussion
>> Subject: RE: [ECOS] ethernet download
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 23-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
>>> Is there a utility for my edb7111-2 for downloading ROM eCos programs
>>> over ethernet?
>>> 
>>> It would obviously have to start with serial in order to get the
>>> original ethernet driver over and then finish over ethernet.
>>> 
>> 
>> What about RedBoot? :-)

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Mark Salter]

>>>>> Gary Thomas writes:

> On 24-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
>> That sounds cool.  I never thought of that.  I'll try it.  How much RAM
>> does Redboot take up?  Can you have it take up a smaller amount of RAM
>> after it's started the other system?  We are only putting 1M RAM on our
>> target board so I can't have it taking up much.
>> 

> The normal case is for RedBoot to use 128K.  However, if you're willing
> to give up RedBoot's services (e.g. network console & debugging, etc)
> after starting your code, that can be reduced to 0 (it's a non-factor
> becaose your code will use everything available).

Also, in the case of systems like linux, RedBoot is out of the picture
completely once the app is started. The app is then free to reuse any
RAM that was previously used by RedBoot.

--Mark

RE: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Trenton D. Adams]

Well then how are you supposed to ever update your program?  If redboot
doesn't watch on the network port, you can't update your program
anymore.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Salter [ mailto:msalter@redhat.com ] 
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:22 AM
To: gthomas@redhat.com
Cc: tadams@theone.dnsalias.com; ecos-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com
Subject: Re: [ECOS] ethernet download


>>>>> Gary Thomas writes:

> On 24-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
>> That sounds cool.  I never thought of that.  I'll try it.  How much
RAM
>> does Redboot take up?  Can you have it take up a smaller amount of
RAM
>> after it's started the other system?  We are only putting 1M RAM on
our
>> target board so I can't have it taking up much.
>> 

> The normal case is for RedBoot to use 128K.  However, if you're
willing
> to give up RedBoot's services (e.g. network console & debugging, etc)
> after starting your code, that can be reduced to 0 (it's a non-factor
> becaose your code will use everything available).

Also, in the case of systems like linux, RedBoot is out of the picture
completely once the app is started. The app is then free to reuse any
RAM that was previously used by RedBoot.

--Mark

RE: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Gary Thomas]

On 24-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
> Well then how are you supposed to ever update your program?  If redboot
> doesn't watch on the network port, you can't update your program
> anymore.
> 

In that case, you'd have to reset the board to go into "maintenance mode".
Alternatively, you could put the update code into your application.

Note: RedBoot is never "watching over your shoulder" for commands.  If
it's running in it's CLI mode, then you can give it commands.  Once it
launches an application, it's no longer in CLI mode.  It may assist
with I/O (especially network console I/O), but that's pretty much it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Salter [ mailto:msalter@redhat.com ] 
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:22 AM
> To: gthomas@redhat.com
> Cc: tadams@theone.dnsalias.com; ecos-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com
> Subject: Re: [ECOS] ethernet download
> 
> 
>>>>>> Gary Thomas writes:
> 
>> On 24-Aug-2001 Trenton D. Adams wrote:
>>> That sounds cool.  I never thought of that.  I'll try it.  How much
> RAM
>>> does Redboot take up?  Can you have it take up a smaller amount of
> RAM
>>> after it's started the other system?  We are only putting 1M RAM on
> our
>>> target board so I can't have it taking up much.
>>> 
> 
>> The normal case is for RedBoot to use 128K.  However, if you're
> willing
>> to give up RedBoot's services (e.g. network console & debugging, etc)
>> after starting your code, that can be reduced to 0 (it's a non-factor
>> becaose your code will use everything available).
> 
> Also, in the case of systems like linux, RedBoot is out of the picture
> completely once the app is started. The app is then free to reuse any
> RAM that was previously used by RedBoot.
> 
> --Mark

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Grant Edwards]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:24:30AM -0600, Trenton D. Adams wrote:

> > Also, in the case of systems like linux, RedBoot is out of the
> > picture completely once the app is started. The app is then
> > free to reuse any RAM that was previously used by RedBoot.
>
> Well then how are you supposed to ever update your program?  If
> redboot doesn't watch on the network port, you can't update
> your program anymore.

You push the little red reset button on the corner of the
board.  That returns control to RedBoot.

[There needs to be an international treaty forbidding the
trafficing in hardware without reset buttons.]

-- 
Grant Edwards
grante@visi.com

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Mark Salter]

>>>>> Trenton D Adams writes:

> Well then how are you supposed to ever update your program?  If redboot
> doesn't watch on the network port, you can't update your program
> anymore.

Two ways. You can stop RedBoot from launching the app at boot time (RedBoot
offers a configurable delay for this purpose before running its boot script).
Or you can build update functionality into your app if you need to have the
update occur while the app is running (this can real tricky if your app is
running from or using flash).

--Mark

RE: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Trenton D. Adams]

Very funny! :)  I'm talking about when Redboot is set to run the program
on bootup.

-----Original Message-----
From: ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com
[ mailto:ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com ] On Behalf Of Grant
Edwards
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:34 AM
To: Trenton D. Adams
Cc: 'Mark Salter'; gthomas@redhat.com;
ecos-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com
Subject: Re: [ECOS] ethernet download


On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:24:30AM -0600, Trenton D. Adams wrote:

> > Also, in the case of systems like linux, RedBoot is out of the
> > picture completely once the app is started. The app is then
> > free to reuse any RAM that was previously used by RedBoot.
>
> Well then how are you supposed to ever update your program?  If
> redboot doesn't watch on the network port, you can't update
> your program anymore.

You push the little red reset button on the corner of the
board.  That returns control to RedBoot.

[There needs to be an international treaty forbidding the
trafficing in hardware without reset buttons.]

-- 
Grant Edwards
grante@visi.com

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Gary Thomas]

On 24-Aug-2001 Grant Edwards wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:24:30AM -0600, Trenton D. Adams wrote:
> 
>> > Also, in the case of systems like linux, RedBoot is out of the
>> > picture completely once the app is started. The app is then
>> > free to reuse any RAM that was previously used by RedBoot.
>>
>> Well then how are you supposed to ever update your program?  If
>> redboot doesn't watch on the network port, you can't update
>> your program anymore.
> 
> You push the little red reset button on the corner of the
> board.  That returns control to RedBoot.
> 
> [There needs to be an international treaty forbidding the
> trafficing in hardware without reset buttons.]

How about hardware with no serial port - only an ethernet connection?
Yes, we have worked with such beasties... fun, in the purest sense :-)

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Grant Edwards]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:38:21AM -0600, Trenton D. Adams wrote:

> > > > Also, in the case of systems like linux, RedBoot is out of the
> > > > picture completely once the app is started. The app is then
> > > > free to reuse any RAM that was previously used by RedBoot.
> > >
> > > Well then how are you supposed to ever update your program?  If
> > > redboot doesn't watch on the network port, you can't update
> > > your program anymore.
> >
> > You push the little red reset button on the corner of the
> > board.  That returns control to RedBoot.
>
> Very funny! :) I'm talking about when Redboot is set to run the
> program on bootup.

You set up redboot to wait for 5 seconds (or however long you
want) so that you've got a chance to stop the auto-loading of the
default program from FLASH.  Then you can use the normal
RedBoot commands to load a different program, burn it to Flash,
whatever.

[We're currently shipping a product that does exactly that.]

-- 
Grant Edwards
grante@visi.com

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Grant Edwards]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:48:32AM -0600, Gary Thomas wrote:
> 
> On 24-Aug-2001 Grant Edwards wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:24:30AM -0600, Trenton D. Adams wrote:
> > 
> >> > Also, in the case of systems like linux, RedBoot is out of the
> >> > picture completely once the app is started. The app is then
> >> > free to reuse any RAM that was previously used by RedBoot.
> >>
> >> Well then how are you supposed to ever update your program?  If
> >> redboot doesn't watch on the network port, you can't update
> >> your program anymore.
> > 
> > You push the little red reset button on the corner of the
> > board.  That returns control to RedBoot.
> > 
> > [There needs to be an international treaty forbidding the
> > trafficing in hardware without reset buttons.]
> 
> How about hardware with no serial port - only an ethernet connection?
> Yes, we have worked with such beasties... fun, in the purest sense :-)

My version of RedBoot listens on a TCP port.  You push the
reset button then you've got 10 seconds to telnet to RedBoot.
Once you've opened a telnet session, it just like you're
connected to a serial console.

-- 
Grant Edwards
grante@visi.com

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Gary Thomas]

On 24-Aug-2001 Grant Edwards wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:48:32AM -0600, Gary Thomas wrote:
>> 
>> On 24-Aug-2001 Grant Edwards wrote:
>> > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:24:30AM -0600, Trenton D. Adams wrote:
>> > 
>> >> > Also, in the case of systems like linux, RedBoot is out of the
>> >> > picture completely once the app is started. The app is then
>> >> > free to reuse any RAM that was previously used by RedBoot.
>> >>
>> >> Well then how are you supposed to ever update your program?  If
>> >> redboot doesn't watch on the network port, you can't update
>> >> your program anymore.
>> > 
>> > You push the little red reset button on the corner of the
>> > board.  That returns control to RedBoot.
>> > 
>> > [There needs to be an international treaty forbidding the
>> > trafficing in hardware without reset buttons.]
>> 
>> How about hardware with no serial port - only an ethernet connection?
>> Yes, we have worked with such beasties... fun, in the purest sense :-)
> 
> My version of RedBoot listens on a TCP port.  You push the
> reset button then you've got 10 seconds to telnet to RedBoot.
> Once you've opened a telnet session, it just like you're
> connected to a serial console.

Actually, they all work that way :-)  The real problem is when you're
just bringing things up initially (or making major changes to the
startup code).  Trying to debug with only a network connection in
this environment can be more than tricky.

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Grant Edwards]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:59:25AM -0600, Gary Thomas wrote:
>
> >> How about hardware with no serial port - only an ethernet
> >> connection? Yes, we have worked with such beasties... fun, in
> >> the purest sense :-)
> > 
> > My version of RedBoot listens on a TCP port.  You push the
> > reset button then you've got 10 seconds to telnet to RedBoot.
> > Once you've opened a telnet session, it just like you're
> > connected to a serial console.
> 
> Actually, they all work that way :-) The real problem is when
> you're just bringing things up initially (or making major
> changes to the startup code).  Trying to debug with only a
> network connection in this environment can be more than tricky.

That's when you use hardware-assisted debugging: either a
full-up in-circuit emulator or something like a JTAG interface.
Wasting several weeks of engineering time (and marketing
window) to save a few thousand dollars is false economy.

Or layout the board with a debugging serial port (something
with a nice big FIFO that will run at 115K baud or higher) and
then don't populate that portion of the board in production.

Or put a header of some sort on the board so that you can
attach a daughterboard with a UART.  Something as simple as a
three pin SPI or I2C connector can be used to interface to a
UART while you're debugging.

-- 
Grant Edwards
grante@visi.com

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Gary Thomas]

On 24-Aug-2001 Grant Edwards wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:59:25AM -0600, Gary Thomas wrote:
>>
>> >> How about hardware with no serial port - only an ethernet
>> >> connection? Yes, we have worked with such beasties... fun, in
>> >> the purest sense :-)
>> > 
>> > My version of RedBoot listens on a TCP port.  You push the
>> > reset button then you've got 10 seconds to telnet to RedBoot.
>> > Once you've opened a telnet session, it just like you're
>> > connected to a serial console.
>> 
>> Actually, they all work that way :-) The real problem is when
>> you're just bringing things up initially (or making major
>> changes to the startup code).  Trying to debug with only a
>> network connection in this environment can be more than tricky.
> 
> That's when you use hardware-assisted debugging: either a
> full-up in-circuit emulator or something like a JTAG interface.
> Wasting several weeks of engineering time (and marketing
> window) to save a few thousand dollars is false economy.
> 
> Or layout the board with a debugging serial port (something
> with a nice big FIFO that will run at 115K baud or higher) and
> then don't populate that portion of the board in production.
> 
> Or put a header of some sort on the board so that you can
> attach a daughterboard with a UART.  Something as simple as a
> three pin SPI or I2C connector can be used to interface to a
> UART while you're debugging.

Yup, yup, yup.  However, sometimes the "customer" comes to you
without any of these things and expects miracles :-)

RE: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Trenton D. Adams]

You're assuming I make bugs! ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com
[ mailto:ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com ] On Behalf Of Grant
Edwards
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 10:03 AM
To: Gary Thomas
Cc: Trenton D. Adams; Mark Salter; ecos-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com
Subject: Re: [ECOS] ethernet download


On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:59:25AM -0600, Gary Thomas wrote:
>
> >> How about hardware with no serial port - only an ethernet
> >> connection? Yes, we have worked with such beasties... fun, in
> >> the purest sense :-)
> > 
> > My version of RedBoot listens on a TCP port.  You push the
> > reset button then you've got 10 seconds to telnet to RedBoot.
> > Once you've opened a telnet session, it just like you're
> > connected to a serial console.
> 
> Actually, they all work that way :-) The real problem is when
> you're just bringing things up initially (or making major
> changes to the startup code).  Trying to debug with only a
> network connection in this environment can be more than tricky.

That's when you use hardware-assisted debugging: either a
full-up in-circuit emulator or something like a JTAG interface.
Wasting several weeks of engineering time (and marketing
window) to save a few thousand dollars is false economy.

Or layout the board with a debugging serial port (something
with a nice big FIFO that will run at 115K baud or higher) and
then don't populate that portion of the board in production.

Or put a header of some sort on the board so that you can
attach a daughterboard with a UART.  Something as simple as a
three pin SPI or I2C connector can be used to interface to a
UART while you're debugging.

-- 
Grant Edwards
grante@visi.com

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Grant Edwards]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 10:03:10AM -0600, Trenton D. Adams wrote:

> You're assuming I make bugs! ;)

You've got to put bugs in!  

Otherwise things get done too soon and it all looks too easy.

-- 
Grant Edwards
grante@visi.com

RE: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Trenton D. Adams]

AGREED!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com
[ mailto:ecos-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com ] On Behalf Of Grant
Edwards
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 10:08 AM
To: Trenton D. Adams
Cc: 'Gary Thomas'; 'Mark Salter'; ecos-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com
Subject: Re: [ECOS] ethernet download


On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 10:03:10AM -0600, Trenton D. Adams wrote:

> You're assuming I make bugs! ;)

You've got to put bugs in!  

Otherwise things get done too soon and it all looks too easy.

-- 
Grant Edwards
grante@visi.com

Re: [ECOS] ethernet download

[Grant Edwards]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 10:11:25AM -0600, Gary Thomas wrote:

> > That's when you use hardware-assisted debugging: either a
> > full-up in-circuit emulator or something like a JTAG interface.
> > Wasting several weeks of engineering time (and marketing
> > window) to save a few thousand dollars is false economy.
> > 
> > Or layout the board with a debugging serial port (something
> > with a nice big FIFO that will run at 115K baud or higher) and
> > then don't populate that portion of the board in production.
> > 
> > Or put a header of some sort on the board so that you can
> > attach a daughterboard with a UART.  Something as simple as a
> > three pin SPI or I2C connector can be used to interface to a
> > UART while you're debugging.
> 
> Yup, yup, yup.  However, sometimes the "customer" comes to you
> without any of these things and expects miracles :-)

Yup been there.  By the time they realize they don't know what
they're doing, they're so far behind schedule there's no time
to go back and do things right.  The battle is nearly lost, so
they bring in the mercenaries to burn the fields and bayonet
the wounded...

Such is the life in contract engineering.

It's so much easier when HW and SW are both in-house and you
get a chance to make suggestions before the boards get laid
out.

-- 
Grant Edwards
grante@visi.com